LC L League Cup 3rd Round

Manchester United 0:1 West Ham United

Post-match discussion


Wed, 22 September 2021

fergieisold

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Yes we should have had a penalty. Martial was the problem. Ole has to stop mollycoddling him. Greenwood should have started and Lingard should have stayed on. For all the chances we had, the proportion on target is not good enough. He keeps saying about us starting slowly. It is like a stuck record. Then do something about it. Get on the touch line and get them going right from the start.
One thing I also noted towards the end was we lost our patience. There were some pot shots (bruno for one) which released the pressure on West Ham. Seemed to genuinely be a bit of tension out there...almost felt like if we were a bit more patient we'd have got the goal eventually.
 

thesheriffjw

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Anyone who is happy with going out are in cloud cuckoo land.

carabao cup is an opportunity to give those outside first 11 a chance to stay match fit and game time. Also a chance for silverware.

If a player gets injured for the season now, would you trust any of those last night?

Too many fans have fallen for oles, weve had good go, motto.

it is simply not good enough to lose to a 2nd string west ham team at home.

His excuses are wearing thin and i can guarantee the same excuses will be used at the end of another empty, trophyless season
 

Revan

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Trouble Ole has now is when do you give these players more minutes. The CL has now become a must win situtation. So it will depend who they get in the F.A. Cup, that is ages away.
Why they should get more minutes?

Deano - when De Gea is injured
Dalot - play at times in the league vs not good teams
Bailly - preferably never
Lindelof - when Varane or Maguire are injured, or need rest
Telles - when Shaw is injured
Matic - some minutes here and there
VDB - try him instead of one of McFred
Mata - hopefully never
Lingard - preferably never
Sancho - persist with him for another bit
Martial - never

Essentially, Lindelof and Sancho are the only one who could be important part of the squad for the future, and both of them are probably backups (Rashford is better than Sancho, and Greenwood seem to already be better). Matic and VDB for a few minutes here and there, the others, in injury crisis.

What is the point of playing Mata and Martial? We are not gonna play them in games that matter, they are shit, so why do they need to get minutes in the first place?!
 

DomesticTadpole

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One thing I also noted towards the end was we lost our patience. There were some pot shots (bruno for one) which released the pressure on West Ham. Seemed to genuinely be a bit of tension out there...almost felt like if we were a bit more patient we'd have got the goal eventually.
You know you are in trouble when people just start taking potshots. That the other team have you where they want you. West Ham chances although fewer were better chances. He supposedly said about us just lobbing the ball in, when it didn't suit us. Why were they doing it then. Surely we prepared a way which was best to utilise the players we put out there.
 

RuudTom83

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It was an exciting match tbf. It's never nice to lose, but when you have 27 shots and don't score it's just not your night.

Playing teams back to back never helps either, even through the players were different, it's like an unwritten law that the footballing gods will even it up. Would of been perfect(for West Ham) for Noble to score that break away counter near the end.
 

jeff_goldblum

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My main takeaway from the game is how important it is to have a proper striker with some presence. Even if they don't score, having someone like Cavani or Ronaldo in the box forces the opposition to mark them and forces them to close down our wide-men and prevent crosses, both of which leaves more space inside for others to exploit. With Martial up-front there was never any risk we'd score from a ball into box (despite Dalot putting a couple of good ones in first half) so West Ham could just defend in numbers and smother our short passing game.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Why they should get more minutes?

Deano - when De Gea is injured
Dalot - play at times in the league vs not good teams
Bailly - preferably never
Lindelof - when Varane or Maguire are injured, or need rest
Telles - when Shaw is injured
Matic - some minutes here and there
VDB - try him instead of one of McFred
Mata - hopefully never
Lingard - preferably never
Sancho - persist with him for another bit
Martial - never

Essentially, Lindelof and Sancho are the only one who could be important part of the squad for the future, and both of them are probably backups (Rashford is better than Sancho, and Greenwood seem to already be better). Matic and VDB for a few minutes here and there, the others, in injury crisis.

What is the point of playing Mata and Martial? We are not gonna play them in games that matter, they are shit, so why do they need to get minutes in the first place?!
Won us 2 points on Sunday.
 

McGrathsipan

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gutted we lost.
If we were in with a genuine chance of the league and CL then I'd be ok but we are not.

Oleball is never going to get us to a major title.
 

matt23

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I was there last night. I don't agree with those posters saying we were unlucky or the better team. I thought West Ham were miles better at the nuts and bolts stuff you need to actually win a football match. Always had plenty of time to block shots and intercept passes.

Team selection was poor, and crashing out of another competition with a tepid, unispired performace isn't the kind of thing that inspires a winning mentality.
 

Eli Zee

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My main takeaway from the game is how important it is to have a proper striker with some presence. Even if they don't score, having someone like Cavani or Ronaldo in the box forces the opposition to mark them and forces them to close down our wide-men and prevent crosses, both of which leaves more space inside for others to exploit. With Martial up-front there was never any risk we'd score from a ball into box (despite Dalot putting a couple of good ones in first half) so West Ham could just defend in numbers and smother our short passing game.
i don't know why our team does so many crosses into the box when it's martial up front.. he'a never going to do anything with that. If it's not ronaldo or cavani in the box, crossing it in there is just Like giving the opponent a free clearance / possession
 

Revan

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Neither are Wan-Bissaka, McTominay or Fred, all of whom start every game. Jesse is better than them & a good squad player.
Jesse is not a good squad player. The last time he was here for a season, he was one minute away from going an entire season without scoring or assisting a single goal. He is a nothing player, and an important goal every 5 years does not change it. If he is a good squad player, then so is Martial or literally everyone who plays ok one match in every 10. Oh, and if he is a good player cause he scored a goal, he is also shit cause one week ago cost us the game.

Agree about the other three that are not good enough, but we are not stacked with players in those positions. While in three positions Jesse play, we have Bruno, Rashford, Pogba, Greenwood, Sancho, Ronaldo (can play there), Martial (as useless as Jesse) and a few very promising kids.

He should have been sold this summer.
 

OleTheGreat

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Martial needs to be gone in the Jan window. I don't care if we even buy someone but he needs to be gone. The man has completely lost confidence in himself. I thought he would have a lot to say because Rashford is out on injury but Greenwood is the one who took charge. Just loved how the 72k+ fans in the stadium raised the roof when he came on and started dribbling with the ball. I hated the game until Greenwood came on because it was so quiet and I heard so many sighs on TV. It was a sad show!
 

Pearl's a minger

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Amazed at how many times we got behind/amongst the West Ham back line only to keep on hitting aimless/hopeful balls into the middle hoping Martial would be getting on the end of them.
That being said i cant put all the blame on Martial's shoulders the delivery at times was just as woeful as Martial's overall performance.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Amazed at how many times we got behind/amongst the West Ham back line only to keep on hitting aimless/hopeful balls into the middle hoping Martial would be getting on the end of them.
That being said i cant put all the blame on Martial's shoulders the delivery at times was just as woeful as Martial's overall performance.
Think Moyes put a spell on them, 'Keep crossing the ball in, even though it is hopeless'.
 

Tincanalley

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It was an exciting match tbf. It's never nice to lose, but when you have 27 shots and don't score it's just not your night.

Playing teams back to back never helps either, even through the players were different, it's like an unwritten law that the footballing gods will even it up. Would of been perfect(for West Ham) for Noble to score that break away counter near the end.
If we had likes in Caf, I’d like this post
 

Tincanalley

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Amazed at how many times we got behind/amongst the West Ham back line only to keep on hitting aimless/hopeful balls into the middle hoping Martial would be getting on the end of them.
That being said i cant put all the blame on Martial's shoulders the delivery at times was just as woeful as Martial's overall performance.
Point well made
 

Craig Ward

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I was there last night. I don't agree with those posters saying we were unlucky or the better team. I thought West Ham were miles better at the nuts and bolts stuff you need to actually win a football match. Always had plenty of time to block shots and intercept passes.

Team selection was poor, and crashing out of another competition with a tepid, unispired performace isn't the kind of thing that inspires a winning mentality.
Good post.

West Ham we're much better than us throughout - simple as that. A deserved loss, that's all it is.

I've no issue with rotating the squad, especially in the carabao cup. With us being out 1st hurdle though, you do wonder when Ole is going to give these "fringe" players another chance bar serious injuries? Ole pretty much sticks to the same players so it's a wasted chance for the bulk of them.

On paper, we still should have won that game. Everyone is banging on about 11 changes, but West Ham made 10 and still looked a decent team. We just looked laboured and disjointed. Not many could hold they're head up and say they gave it 100% and had a good game.

Problem with our "back up/rotated players" is they either flat out know they'll not feature in many important games which leads to a lack of effort or they're legs have simply gone and they can't perform at the top any longer.

I'll run through the x11
Henderson - knows he's number 2. Looked for a spell last season where he may get the No1 jersey. Ole's gone with De Gea - all the rumour is he wants a loan.
Dalot - Spent a year on loan and knows pushing AWB is a tall order. To be fair, I think he plays to his limits. Only regular game time would help him - he aint getting a run here bar an injury
Bailly - Has he ever been considered a long term 1st choice starting player here? Injuries and erratic form dont help him - but he's firmly a back up
Lindelof - Firm number 3 and he knows it. He could play 10/10 and he's still nowhere near displacing Varane or Maguire. Did play well though to his credit
Telles - Similar to Dalot. Has quality - but not displacing Shaw bar an injury
Matic - Legs have gone. Forces our midfield too deep. Shouldnt be playing
Mata - See Matic
Donny - Needs a run of games. Ole prefers McFred and Pogba. Probably 4th choice for 2 deeper midfield spots. Baffling me a little as I think he is better than McTom and Fred. Pogba is a liability deep as well.
Sancho - Just needs game time.
Martial - Has there ever been a Man Utd CF who puts as little effort in? Behind Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford for a CF role. Behind Rashford/Sancho/Pogba for a LF role. Serves no purpose to us
Lingard - Just perfectly highlights the issue with quality through our squad for me. Has the odd moment, but overall lacks consistent quality. He's no threat to any of our starting players and never will be. Has been here years, and still the best he can offer is "bit part". get in the bin - should have took a perm move

So quality wise. We look good. Combine the above with a lack of desire to perform, lack of commitment. Lots of players happy to sit on big wages playing here and there with no conviction. Our 2nd string should be full of younger/hungry players with a future. Between our starting 11 yesterday, i'd argue only Sancho and Donny have a chance of impacting the starting 11 long term. Dalot/Lindelof/Telles/Henderson are reliable back ups. The rest can get in the bin - hopeless
 

Gentleman Jim

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'Surprised at the indifference to going out on here.' Are you kidding? The indifference was on the fecking teamsheet. Why would the fans get worked up about losing a game we fielded a second-string in.

No one's feeling devastated about being knocked out of a cup when OGS clearly sees it as surplus to requirements.

Matic, Mata, Telles, Dalot, Martial -- that's half of the outfield players already and not one of them are anyway near being a first pick or are even close to being in the manager's thoughts. They're back ups/shop window squad players and pretty average ones at that. No-one's banging down the door to get picked.

We move on to the next game and being out of an undervalued cup competition and resting Ronaldo's legs is actually a plus for us.

Even if we were to win it I don't think OGS would be judged on it. He's judged on the major cup comps.
As I said before, it seems to me that United are down to one realistic chance to avoid a fifth straight trophyless season and a good number of forumites are downplaying the need to make a serious attempt at the LC. Strange.
Does judging Ole really matter that much? I would want my team to get back into the habit of being there at the business end of the season instead of watching from the sidelines. United have nearly 30 full internationals in their squad and to lose at home to a middling PL side who were also without a few of their top players would get some sort of reaction from me, be it anger or well played-hard luck. Not “Meh, not interested in that competition“.
Ferguson was interested enough to reach the final 6 times. Pretty sure he had a smaller squad to work with and still was involved in competing on 4 fronts.
 

BusbyMalone

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A lot more positives there than there are in most losses. I thought Donny played well overall. Got caught on the ball a few times, but no worse than what Fred does about 10 times a game. And at this moment that’s the standard (unfortunately) that we have to judge him by. So yeah, I’d play him in the next game as well. Thought some of our build-up was quite good and Mata had a good game, in my opinion. Sancho was ok. Done some really good things, but he’s still not there is he? Juts missing something at the moment, but a decent game from him.

Telles got caught out a few times, most obviously during the buildup to the goal where he inexplicably got roasted. He’s an alright back up I suppose, but no more than that. Lindelof played well and I still maintain that I would play him over Maguire and pair him with Varane.

Our play in the final third was quite poor though. Really struggled to create much. We did have 9 shots on target which is quite decent to be fair, but other than the Martial chance (who should have done better) and Greenwood's chance with his first touch, I’m not sure if there were many where you'd go “we should have scored there” On Martial, he’s not at it. Being blunt about it, he looks finished here. His off-the-ball movement is just absolute shite. Apart from one or two situations where he linked up with someone with a little flick and a one-two, there really was nothing from him. So frustrating to watch. Considering we’re now knocked out of the cup where you would expect him to play most of the games, I don’t see where he plays now. He’s not as good as ANY of the players in the positions he could possibly play in.

And I know this sounds like a lousy excuse, but I didn’t think we got the bounce of the ball at times. There were a couple of situations where they just managed to get a leg in the way and it bounced for them when it could quite easily have fallen to a United player in the box. It happens. Not a great feeling to get knocked out of a cup at home though, regardless of the competition.
 

DomesticTadpole

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As I said before, it seems to me that United are down to one realistic chance to avoid a fifth straight trophyless season and a good number of forumites are downplaying the need to make a serious attempt at the LC. Strange.
Does judging Ole really matter that much? I would want my team to get back into the habit of being there at the business end of the season instead of watching from the sidelines. United have nearly 30 full internationals in their squad and to lose at home to a middling PL side who were also without a few of their top players would get some sort of reaction from me, be it anger or well played-hard luck. Not “Meh, not interested in that competition“.
Ferguson was interested enough to reach the final 6 times. Pretty sure he had a smaller squad to work with and still was involved in competing on 4 fronts.
I am angry now. :mad: Think last night I almost accepted it because I thought it was not a great idea making eleven changes and with Martial up front being one of them. He is playing like someone who has lost confidence and knows he is not really wanted and cannot find another club. I would have started Greenwood, or looking how Martial was in the first half at least brought him on at HT, couldn't understand Jesse coming off either. Your manager made changes, but still had dangerous players at the business end of the pitch.
 

Maticmaker

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11 changes and you expect a result against a team you narrowly beat less than 72 hours ago...don't think so! The first ten minutes they took us a part, after that we held sway, but couldn't put the ball in the net.

I cannot figure Ole's reasoning, OK put the full second team out, to save the legs of your first team players for Saturday, but then stay with them (except for injuries) give them the full 90 minutes and accept the result, even if it means going out.
However do not try to rescue things by throwing on two crucial players 15 to 20 mins from the end, and if you are going to make those kind of substitutions give them at least half and hour to have some effect!

OK disappointed with result...but more disappointed with tactics, is it Ole's inexperience, or are his management team giving him duff advice. Also whats Martial doing playing 90 mins, he wouldn't get picked for a Sunday league team on current form; he looks fed up pi**ed off and not interested...most of the time!
 

USREDEVIL

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Very mixed performances. Lots of flashes of good players followed by lack of end product. Martial was probably the worst but the rest were basically showing why they don't start. I was impressed with Donnie, but maybe because i don't rate him much. He put in some good passes and made some good runs which weren't picked up. Also got some tackles and blocks in. I can see why some might prefer him to McT. Sancho did alright but he needs to get in the groove. The rest were "alright" but nothing special. Lingard was wasteful and that for me is the reason we did not get our goal. None of this refers to Greenwood or Bruno though. They came in and bossed things but it was too late.
 

jeff_goldblum

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i don't know why our team does so many crosses into the box when it's martial up front.. he'a never going to do anything with that. If it's not ronaldo or cavani in the box, crossing it in there is just Like giving the opponent a free clearance / possession
In fairness it's something Dalot is actually pretty good at and part of his natural game. If Cavani or Ronaldo had played he'd probably have gotten an assist. He stopped in the second half though so presumably Ole or one of the coaches gave him a note.
 

VanDeBank

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We'd have done a lot better with Cavani. Too often Martial was drifting out left and his finishing was awful.

I'd like to see more of Dalot and VDB. Lindelof and Bailly were decent. Sancho looked a bit better. Matic is okayish on the ball, but defensively suspect and the goal was his and Telles' fault. Maybe Lingard has some value off the bench. Not too impressed with Telles, Henderson, Mata, Martial.
 

Blood Mage

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Anyone who is happy with going out are in cloud cuckoo land.

carabao cup is an opportunity to give those outside first 11 a chance to stay match fit and game time. Also a chance for silverware.

If a player gets injured for the season now, would you trust any of those last night?

Too many fans have fallen for oles, weve had good go, motto.

it is simply not good enough to lose to a 2nd string west ham team at home.

His excuses are wearing thin and i can guarantee the same excuses will be used at the end of another empty, trophyless season
We could have signed Ronaldo, Messi and Haaland and Ole would still be saying we're a work in progress. It's basically a meme at this point.
 

mitchmouse

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Ole has a 50 million pound player in a slump. The only way that player is getting out of that slump is to play his way back. We all said this was a meaningless competition, so it is perfect for this express purpose. Martial had some good runs and good touches. People would us think he took a fecking nap in the center circle from the comments on here. He linked well with Sancho several times, quick intricate passes. His shooting accuracy was off. But what the team needs is Martial as an option. He won't be starting many matches but when he's firing on all cylinders he is a great arrow to have in the quiver. I think playing with or training with Ronaldo is going to vastly improve his game because Martials' poaching needs work, i.e., his quick reactions and where he goes in an attack need help; Ronaldo can show him.

Don't get me wrong: if Martial wants to leave that would be the best for all concerned, IF we use that money to get a midfielder. Martial will proved competition for the left wing and offers something different (when he's in form) than the others out there. Plus he hates the Scousers.
problem is the more other people see him, they less they'll want him and the less they'll think he's worth. As a Number 9, which is what he says he is, it would be nice if his shooting accuracy wasn't off - and he looks as if he doesn't care, which doesn't help. He's been at the club long enough now not toned to be training next to Ronaldo
 

chiz2kul

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Anyone who is happy with going out are in cloud cuckoo land.

carabao cup is an opportunity to give those outside first 11 a chance to stay match fit and game time. Also a chance for silverware.

If a player gets injured for the season now, would you trust any of those last night?

Too many fans have fallen for oles, weve had good go, motto.

it is simply not good enough to lose to a 2nd string west ham team at home.

His excuses are wearing thin and i can guarantee the same excuses will be used at the end of another empty, trophyless season
spot on.
Standards have fallen and mediocrity is the expectation.
 

mitchmouse

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I saw positives in that match even though we lost.

Second half Sancho played with more speed and freedom. He took more risks with the ball. He is taking some time to bed in and this match helped. One bit he tried shooting through a player's legs in the box, almost pulled it off. He needs to play with less hesitation. The minute he scores, he's going to come out of his shell.

VDB is a different type of player than we've had recently but he covered every blade of grass, put in some meaty challenges, and in my mind made a case that he should play over Fred. I know he's more of Bruno type player but he showed alongside Matic that he can do both. I'd play him with McT.

I really liked Matic kneeing that fecker in the groin. Then he raked someone else's shins with his studs. I like that Ole is a nice guy but I want our players to be bastards on the pitch.

Elanga had a good run out. It will do him a world of good for his confidence. It's a shame we won't progress because it is exactly what a player in his developmental stage needs.

Lingard proved useful. I'd leave him as a sub. He's got lots of pace and he can pull something out of a hat if he doesn't think about it too long.

Henderson had some really top shelf saves. At the end West Ham should have scored twice in like the final 5 minutes of regular time. Henderson shut them down really well.

I actually think Dalot offers more going forward than AWB. AWB is a better tackler but I would think Ole would rotate them based on what they were likely to face. We need more intent from the right, Dalot put in some early crosses (i.e., not waiting until he was already past the penalty area). AWB needs to do the same.
Agree about Donny - be nice to give him time next to Scotty and see how it goes. Villa at home seems like as good a time as ever to give it a try...
 

VanDeBank

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:confused: I thought he did really well in a couple of one on ones yesterday. Not enough to displace Dave but not calamitous, either.
You're right. I think I was mostly judging players based on their competition in the starting 11.
I was a bit harsh on Hendo. He was brave and no big mistakes is good for a GK.

The big takeaway for me is that we missed Cavani and VDB and Dalot did well compared to their "starting XI" competition.
 

mu4c_20le

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spot on.
Standards have fallen and mediocrity is the expectation.
Agreed, never seen so much fuss over the carabao cup. The league and europe was always prioritized over this cup. The meltdown is both baffling and hilarious.
 

roseguy64

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Players who are not going to be any use or good enough to play in games that supposedly matter, do not "need minutes"...all it is doing is taking minutes away from players who might do or develop into something useful.

And if you make 11 changes and stick a bunch of fringe players in with players who are not good enough, you learn nothing.

As soon as I saw the team I thought we'd lose because none of the front four (i.e. our attack) were players you could realistically expect to score in a game.

The obsession with giving martial xinfinity chances to prove over and over that he is not going to do anything useful is just pathetic management at this point. You have greenwood who deserves opportunities up front and isn't getting them. You have Elanga who deserves a chance and isn't getting it. You have Rashford and Cavani to come back yet who any sane manager would pick ahead of martial anyway. There is no reason to keep giving him chances when he is clearly not doing enough to earn them.

I'm sorry but ole is an idiot
You also thought Fergie was past it so I doubt we should consider your footballing knowledge as amazing.
 

Buster15

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I think Ole did the right thing regarding the lineup.We talked so many times how we need a strong bench (like City have), so he rested all the key players and gave a chance to those who need games to adapt (like Jadon), or after long absence (Hendo,Telles) and gave minutes to VDB (we all called for it), or simply to try to see if there is any hope for some of them (Martial, but I don't think he will ever be useful to us again, especially with the competition he has). But still, we should of win this, and the fact that we always need 10-20 minutes (that slow start) to actually do anything after the first whistle is a constant problem, especially if the opponents exploit this and score first
And I agree with DomesticTadpole, I don't care about CarabaoCup, but Ole will now has even less opportunities to rotate.
And even less opportunity for a trophy win.
 

NinjaZombie

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I've been watching videos of Noble tugging at Lingard. Seriously in what world was that not a penalty?
 

mattsville

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Dublin
That match reminded me of what we were like prior to the arrival of Cavani, no movement or cohesion up front, nothing to aim at as a focal in attack, Martial was drifting around like some kind of false 9 with a cloaking device on, the difference some natural intelligence up front makes is unreal, it took Greenwood to come on to make a good run that VDB picked out brilliantly, if that goes in it's major kudos to Greenwood and VDB would have got a lot of praise for the assist and it was a good indicator that he has the vision and ability to do things like that but had no opportunity like the rest of the midfield for the majority of the match.
 

gabbythered

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Joined
Aug 26, 2021
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6
One thing I also noted towards the end was we lost our patience. There were some pot shots (bruno for one) which released the pressure on West Ham. Seemed to genuinely snaptube vidmate be a bit of tension out there...almost felt like if we were a bit more patient we'd have got the goal eventually.
exactly , the players seemed attached to the previous match and they lost concentration on the current
 
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Player Ratings

5.5 Total Average Rating

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Compiled from 237 ratings.

Score Predictions

218,16,17
  • Man Utd win
  • West Ham win
  • Draw

Detailed Results

  • 25% Man Utd 2:0 West Ham
  • 24% Man Utd 2:1 West Ham
  • 10% Man Utd 3:1 West Ham
  • 9% Man Utd 3:0 West Ham
  • 8% Man Utd 1:0 West Ham
  • 6% Man Utd 3:2 West Ham
  • 5% Man Utd 1:1 West Ham
  • 4% Man Utd 1:2 West Ham
  • 2% Man Utd 4:0 West Ham
  • 2% Man Utd 4:1 West Ham
  • 1% Man Utd 0:2 West Ham
  • 1% Man Utd 2:2 West Ham
  • 1% Man Utd 0:0 West Ham
  • 1% Man Utd 5:0 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 1:3 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 0:1 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 0:5 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 2:3 West Ham
  • 0% Man Utd 5:1 West Ham
Compiled from 251 predictions.
Show more results Score Predictions League Table

Match Stats

  1. Man Utd
  2. West Ham
Possession
61% 39%
Shots
27 9
Shots on Target
6 3
Corners
7 5
Fouls
4 6

Referee

Jonathan Moss