PL D FA Premier League

Manchester United 0:0 Wolverhampton Wanderers

Post-match discussion


Sat, 01 February 2020

billybee99

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I agree.

If we can get our full squad available for a couple of months then I'm quite sure the results will improve. If they don't, then it would be much more fair to judge that Ole isn't up to the job. Until then, just support him ffs. Give him a fair crack at the job. No one has really had that since SAF left and we would never have experienced the fruits of his genius if the impatient crowd had got rid of him after a year or two.
Oh great, this ridiculous, lazy argument again: if the greatest manager in the history of football can turn it around after a bad start, so can Ole.
 

Frodo

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Who did he have to bring on? Messi and Ronaldo werent sitting on the bench.
If we had both, Ole would have stuck Messi in the middle of the park and CR7(juve cr7 not 08 cr7) on the RW. I know you love the guy but face it, there’s no deep tactical plan in his head. That’s why he sits on the bench looking gormless.
 

billybee99

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Big Ron got like 4 season though. That I'd call a fair chance.
Ole has had more than a year. His record is terrible. We're on course to finish the season with a points total in the low 50s. I'm not sure how much more you need to see.
 

Karlos PFC

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Or, stick Pogba, Rashford and McT in our team and we’d be doing a hell of a lot better in the league.
De Gea
Wan Bissaka
Lindelof
Maguire
Shaw
Pogba
McTominay
James
Lingard
Rashford
Martial

Manchester United 1 - Crystal Palace 2
 

RedRoseTyke

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Ole has had more than a year. His record is terrible. We're on course to finish the season with a points total in the low 50s. I'm not sure how much more you need to see.
The squad was in a very poor state, when he took over and pain is a by product of rebuilding. I'm not sure that Ole will be a great manager, but I know he is a very good sh!thouse cleaner, getting rid of the cr@p from several seasons of mismanagement.

The guy needs 3-4 seasons to clean house and show what he can do. The points total this season is irrelevant, it's the quality of the squad going into next season that is way more important.

De Gea
Wan Bissaka
Lindelof
Maguire
Shaw
Pogba
McTominay
James
Lingard
Rashford
Martial

Manchester United 1 - Crystal Palace 2
Yep, we're going to see some horrible results for the next 12-18 months, but the underlying work is being done and the squad reshaped after years of neglect.

As a general point to those demanding instant success, try being a fan of a smaller club, where they don't have the finances to buy big to rebuild.
 

Karlos PFC

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Yep, we're going to see some horrible results for the next 12-18 months, but the underlying work is being done and the squad reshaped after years of neglect.

As a general point to those demanding instant success, try being a fan of a smaller club, where they don't have the finances to buy big to rebuild.
Let's hope Poch is on his way to his new home in Manchester by June
 

The Irish Connection

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Ole's tactical blunders:

- Starting Pereira and James in a game at OT against an even bigger counter punch team than we are, where we knew we would dominate possession.
- Playing Shaw at LB but instructing him to basically stay as a left defensive midfielder when we had the ball. While also telling James to cut inside rather than stay wide. Result: no left wing at all.
- Swapping James to the right wing at HT but apparently giving no instructions to him at all there, resulting in him and AWB getting in each others way with neither knowing when to go wide or inside.
- Keeping Pereira on for the second half and playing him as a sort of inside left midfielder. Dropping Fernandes deeper in the second half to accommodate this.
- Not bringing Greenwood on till what, the 72nd minute?! 27 minutes of diabolical football in the second half for him to react. :lol:
- Keeping Pereira and James on for 72 and 88 minutes despite them clearly both being useless.
- Not bringing Williams on to give us some width on the left / Not bringing Dalot on until the 88th minute :lol:
- Bringing Lingard on with a few minutes left for seemingly no reason at all but to lower our chances of scoring.

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are dozens more.
No doubt, his subs have been poor. They should have been made at least 10 minutes earlier.
Also, we have one of the worst records for defending set pieces in the league because of zonal marking despite spending big on maguire who is good in the air.
 

RedRoseTyke

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So he needs 3 to 4 seasons now to show he's a good manager? Jesus christ.
No, to clean house, just like SAF did. SAF went on to be the bext manager ever, doubt Ole will, but he still has a job to do and needs backing to do it.

For what it's worth, Klopp needed a few seasons to do the same at Liverpool.

The poor results currently are the consequnce of poor appointments before Ole and lack of squad maintenance, IMO.
 

Shamana

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I hope not, Ole's work needs to be finished before he's replaced and preferably replaced by someone who won something.
Like Allegri? Capello maybe?
 

Shamana

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The squad was in a very poor state, when he took over and pain is a by product of rebuilding. I'm not sure that Ole will be a great manager, but I know he is a very good sh!thouse cleaner, getting rid of the cr@p from several seasons of mismanagement.

The guy needs 3-4 seasons to clean house and show what he can do. The points total this season is irrelevant, it's the quality of the squad going into next season that is way more important.



Yep, we're going to see some horrible results for the next 12-18 months, but the underlying work is being done and the squad reshaped after years of neglect.

As a general point to those demanding instant success, try being a fan of a smaller club, where they don't have the finances to buy big to rebuild.
He's a dipper supporter.
 

The Bloody-Nine

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No, to clean house, just like SAF did. SAF went on to be the bext manager ever, doubt Ole will, but he still has a job to do and needs backing to do it.

For what it's worth, Klopp needed a few seasons to do the same at Liverpool.

The poor results currently are the consequnce of poor appointments before Ole and lack of squad maintenance, IMO.
You do realise that mentioning SAF and Klopp in the same breath as Ole is utterly ludicrous, right? For reasons that have been listed umpteen times in numerous threads every time someone is foolish enough to do it.
 

Shamana

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Nope, can't stand the club, but the coach is world class (still another 13 EPL's to catch SAF, though).
I cannot take anyone who says that Ole deserves 3 or 4 seasons to show what he can do seriously. Especially when apparently succes on the pitch doesn't matter. I don't think Ole is the worst manager in league like some do, but managers earn time on merit. Who knows what Moyes could have done if he saw out his 6 year contract? We are breaking negative records with Ole. You don't have to be genius to sell players you don't rate and buy players you rate. There are far far better managers in the world out there. Ole was only meant to be an interim, but his 15 game start earned him the job and then it's all been mostly shit since PSG.
 

Sea-Cow

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I said the same thing under Jose and LVG.... No manager will do anything with this trash and Owners.
I would never defend the Owners nor Woodward, but I disagree with this strongly.

Do you honestly think there isn't a manager out there who could get more out of this squad? Do you honestly think our squad is worse than Sheffield United?

I don't, and I bet if you took a poll of managers and fans to do the player by player comparison, Harry Maguire vs. John Egan, Tony Martial v. Oliver McBurnie, etc, our players would be picked almost down the line. Maybe one or two exceptions.

But yet here they are, above us in the table. And they played us off the park for about 80 minutes.

Yes these players are disappointing, just as they were under the previous managers, and yes of course Woodward is awful and incompetent, but we are doing ourselves no favors with this manager and his staff.

Do the same exercise with the manager. Ole or the Sheffield United manager? Would a single team / player / fans select Ole? Ole or the Wolves manager? Why on earth do we persist with this?
 

Shark

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I hope not, Ole's work needs to be finished before he's replaced and preferably replaced by someone who won something.
Except Ole’s work is non existent, curious as to what you are actually seeing that resembles progress? The football is consistently atrocious, our point tally is at a record breaking low at this stage of the season and Ole is more then rivaling Moyes for the most outlandish and lowering of standard tripe to come from a United managers mouth. Please do tell us of all if this great fantastic work he’s doing.
 

RedRoseTyke

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I cannot take anyone who says that Ole deserves 3 or 4 seasons to show what he can do seriously.
I cannot take anyone who does not understand that Ole needs 3 or 4 seasons to undo the damage and rebuild a competitive squad, but heyho, we both have opinions and live in a land that promotes free speech :)

Except Ole’s work is non existent, curious as to what you are actually seeing that resembles progress?
Deadwood leaving, resilience building, decent signings being integrated. Nothing like enough, yet, but the journey has started.
 

Sea-Cow

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Do you not see how bad our squad was when Ole took over? How many do you miss from Fellaini, Herrera, Sanchez, Darmian, Lukaku, Smalling, Valencia, Young and Rojo? We'd only brought in 2 players plus a cheap kid from the championship until last week, how the hell is Ole supposed to get a tune out of the youngest playing squad in the league, with an obvious lack of talent and a string of key injuries? Comparing the situation he inherited, with that of Moyes is a joke.

The squad needed a major rebuild and to do that, on the limited budget the Glazers were prepared to let go of, required sales before purchases. To lower the wage bill and shift the players who have clearly proven not good enough under successive 'successful' managers.

Under our board, Klopp would have been labelled a failure after his first season and he would not have been allowed the expensive purchases he required to get to the next level.

For me and many others here, it's not set that we want Ole for 4 or 6 years at all. I think you're making that bit up. What we do want, now that he has the job, is to see what he can achieve with a properly balanced and talented squad. We are probably now only 3/4 good signings away from achieving that so hopefully we can get those in the summer and then he gets until christmas time next year to prove if he is good enough to stay.

Having said all that, if Pochettino had won a few trophies before, or there was another obviously outstanding candidate willing to come here, then I'd be quite happy with that too. I'm not taking a dogmatic support Ole at all costs approach. But having watched the obvious mistakes of each of our last 4 managers when they've come in(yes, Ole included) I feel that as much as possible, we need some managerial stability while the squad is rebuilt.
Regarding the first Bold line -- did Ole have anything to do those decisions? I guess we will never know, but unless he was told that the squad transfer dealings were completely out of his control and he had absolutely no say in who came or who went, then surely he must take some responsibility for the state of the squad. I don't actually know how it went down of course, but I am willing to bet he was involved in these decisions.

Second -- In this hypothetical, are we ignoring Klopp's earlier career? Or ignore that he was able to implement a clear style, carried over from his other clubs? In this scenario, if Klopp's pre-Pool career mirrored Ole's, then yeah.... it might have been labelled a failure. But he had pedigree, and he earned patience.

Third -- do you really think there aren't better managers out there? It makes no sense to not have the best manager we could possibly have, at all times. We claim to be the biggest club in the world etc etc, so why would we limit our chances by having a sub-par manager? There is no logical explanation.
 

Sea-Cow

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87th min subs in a must win game ? Wtf ? How does that not shock you ?
Well the players that were out there were banging down the door, creating chances left and right, and only kept out by heroic last-ditch defending and a keeper standing on his head..... So I can understand Ole not wanting to disrupt that offensive symphony we were witnessing....
 

tjb

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The lack of movement discussion has been a topic for us since LVG. Lingard, Martial and the like have been constant participants in this, under different managers. I don't think things like this are actually to do with coaching anymore. I think the problem is two fold. We have almost fixed one element of this in signing centre backs that can bring the ball out from the back ( we just need a ball playing cm), but we still lack players capable of taking the ball and using it effectively. Some don't even make themselves available for the midfielders and defenders, so it makes it so difficult to move the ball up the pitch effectively.
 

kouroux

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Well the players that were out there were banging down the door, creating chances left and right, and only kept out by heroic last-ditch defending and a keeper standing on his head..... So I can understand Ole not wanting to disrupt that offensive symphony we were witnessing....
Too right. Beautiful symphony indeed
 

sugar_kane

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Sick of seeing us try and play out from the back over and over and over and over.

It's so predictable and we don't have the personnel for it. The opposition can see it coming a mile off. We need to hit them by surprise by playing it long once in a while.

It's like watching someone who isn't very good at FIFA select 'possession' as the tactical mode and thinking it will turn them into prime Barcelona by magic.
 

Karlos PFC

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It's so predictable and we don't have the personnel for it. The opposition can see it coming a mile off. We need to hit them by surprise by playing it long once in a while.
Let's try first with a manager that can actually teach them how to play from the back, press and finally attack.
 

Kweku Amonoo

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A manager who agreed to the purchase of a limited RB like AWB for a 50m and Maguire for 80m, doesn’t deserve any more time.
 

Siorac

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Regarding the first Bold line -- did Ole have anything to do those decisions? I guess we will never know, but unless he was told that the squad transfer dealings were completely out of his control and he had absolutely no say in who came or who went, then surely he must take some responsibility for the state of the squad. I don't actually know how it went down of course, but I am willing to bet he was involved in these decisions.

Second -- In this hypothetical, are we ignoring Klopp's earlier career? Or ignore that he was able to implement a clear style, carried over from his other clubs? In this scenario, if Klopp's pre-Pool career mirrored Ole's, then yeah.... it might have been labelled a failure. But he had pedigree, and he earned patience.

Third -- do you really think there aren't better managers out there? It makes no sense to not have the best manager we could possibly have, at all times. We claim to be the biggest club in the world etc etc, so why would we limit our chances by having a sub-par manager? There is no logical explanation.
Seriously, there is no need to compare Klopp's pre-Liverpool career. It's more than sufficient to look at the Liverpool parts: took over when they were 10th, finished 8th and got to two cup finals. Next season they finished 4th with 76 points, a total we cannot reach even if we win the next 13 games.

Having faith that we'll turn the current mess around somehow is admirable in a way but Klopp is a terrible example for those who still harbour that sort of optimism.
 

Nas-JR

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I cannot take anyone who does not understand that Ole needs 3 or 4 seasons to undo the damage and rebuild a competitive squad, but heyho, we both have opinions and live in a land that promotes free speech :)



Deadwood leaving, resilience building, decent signings being integrated. Nothing like enough, yet, but the journey has started.
Well, i commend you for trying to get through to people on this forum. People just love to complain one way or another. No patience, no foresight, no acknowledgment of what is being done that will benefit us later down the line. Just petulant ,emotional children.

As you've pointed out, what is being done in the background, to the culture, and for the foundation of the team is stabilizing and very important for us to use as springboard moving forward. Everyone and their dog saw that the club has been run terribly the last 4/5 years which left us with the juxtaposition of a terrible ,rotten squad and a bloated wage bill/ astronomical transfer spending. Yet somehow, people actually believe we can fix these issues in half a year.

There has been a clear shift in strategy on multiple levels, and imo it's for the better. We are not giving out ridiculous wages to mercenaries, we are not yielding to ridiculously high transfer fees (or at least trying to negotiate the best deals we can, which will hopefully stop the 30% premiums that come with player prices when the name man utd is mentioned) and we are targeting players with a particular type of character, which will eventually lead to the correct environment in the dressing room. The squad is clearly not deep enough, while also being young to the point that the team can be infuriatingly inconsistent. We have lost our two best players for significant periods of the season, along with various other 1 month+ injuries to other important members of the squad. We have played games non-stop because we have only just exited our first competition (although you wouldn't have thought so reading peoples' comments here). You'd think our own fans would give the team a break given all these factors, but it doesn't seem like it.

To put it into context, if you list the players that have departed since ole came to my past self he would have been over the moon. We should have obviously bought an extra attacking player or two in the summer but I don't for a second believe ole was happy with the inability of Woodward of getting them, so he's had to make due. But I'll choose to be an optimist and say that missing out on 2nd choice forwards last summer might give us the opportunity to sign premium ones this upcoming summer (Here comes a flood of replies telling me how no player would ever sign to a terrible team like Man Utd... :rolleyes:)
 
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Sea-Cow

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Seriously, there is no need to compare Klopp's pre-Liverpool career. It's more than sufficient to look at the Liverpool parts: took over when they were 10th, finished 8th and got to two cup finals. Next season they finished 4th with 76 points, a total we cannot reach even if we win the next 13 games.

Having faith that we'll turn the current mess around somehow is admirable in a way but Klopp is a terrible example for those who still harbour that sort of optimism.
Well said.
 

Sea-Cow

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Well, i commend you for trying to get through to people on this forum. People just love to complain one way or another. No patience, no foresight, no acknowledgment of what is being done that will benefit us later down the line. Just petulant ,emotional children.

As you've pointed out, what is being done in the background, to the culture, and for the foundation of the team is stabilizing and very important for us to use as springboard moving forward. Everyone and their dog saw that the club has been run terrible the last 4/5 years which left was with the juxtaposition of a terrible ,rotten squad and a bloated wage bill/ astronomical transfer spending. Yet somehow, people actually believe we can fix these issues in half a year.

There has been a clear shift in strategy on multiple levels, and imo it's for the better. We are not giving out ridiculous wages to mercenaries, we are not yielding to ridiculously high transfer fees (or at least trying to negotiate the best deals we can, which will hopefully stop the 30% premiums that come with player prices when the name man utd is mentioned) and we are targeting players with a particular type of character, which will eventually lead to the correct environment in the dressing room. The squad is clearly not deep enough, while also being young to the point that the team can be infuriatingly inconsistent. We have lost our two best players for significant periods of the season, along with various other 1 month+ injuries to other important members of the squad. We have played games non-stop because we have only just exited our first competition (although you wouldn't have thought so reading peoples' comments here). You'd think our own fans would give the team a break given all these factors, but it doesn't seem like it.

To put it into context, if you list the players that have departed since ole came to my past self he would have been over the moon. We should have obviously bought an extra attacking player or two in the summer but I don't for a second believe ole was happy with the inability of Woodward of getting them, so he's had to make due. But I'll choose to be an optimist and say that missing out on 2nd choice forwards last summer might give us the opportunity to sign premium ones this upcoming summer (Here comes a flood of replies telling me how no player would ever sign to a terrible team like Man Utd... :rolleyes:)
First, I appreciate and admire your maturity and reasonableness. Its admirable and something I shall strive to achieve.

But until that shit kicks in.... Let me go through the bold parts --

We paid 50M for AWB and 80M for Maguire. Didn't we eventually pay the amount that Sporting demanded, after months and months of nonsense. So.... "not yielding to ridiculously high transfer fees"? I beg to differ.

And Ed is at least trying? Hahaha I don't want to quote Yoda here, but it would be applicable. Maybe try a bit harder then, eh Ed?

Injuries happen to every team. Being surprised by them or using them as an excuse is amateurish.

I mean I think we have exited the competition for a Champions League spot. We didn't make the finals of the Carling Cup, but I guess they deserve a well done, and a pat on the head? The FA Cup just started, and yes, we made it out of our Europa League group! Lifetime contract and a knighting for all involved!

You trust that we can identify premium signings, much less get them over the line? And if the reports I'm seeing are correct, maybe we'll be limited to only the premium clients of Ole's agents and business partners. Hopefully they have a few good ones for us! The remainder of the football world? They can go somewhere else.
 

RedRoseTyke

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There are only 2 feasible explanations to this post. It was written by:
1, a rival supporter...probably MCFC.
2, someone so deranged, they are already in a mental asylum. They were deemed a danger to themselves, so for their own sake, were committed :lol:

Sorry buddy, but I don't know if this is serious or not, but it is funny and I am definitely going to be looking at some of your other posts.
That's really hilarious coming from someone with 'baghdad bob', IIRC he was denying reality on CNN with American armour in the background shot.

No, I'm not a Citeh fan, though they are miles better than us at the moment, just someone who watched SAF clean house and build team after the chaos following Sir Matt's exit.
 

RedRoseTyke

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Well, i commend you for trying to get through to people on this forum. People just love to complain one way or another. No patience, no foresight, no acknowledgment of what is being done that will benefit us later down the line. Just petulant ,emotional children.

As you've pointed out, what is being done in the background, to the culture, and for the foundation of the team is stabilizing and very important for us to use as springboard moving forward. Everyone and their dog saw that the club has been run terrible the last 4/5 years which left was with the juxtaposition of a terrible ,rotten squad and a bloated wage bill/ astronomical transfer spending. Yet somehow, people actually believe we can fix these issues in half a year.

There has been a clear shift in strategy on multiple levels, and imo it's for the better. We are not giving out ridiculous wages to mercenaries, we are not yielding to ridiculously high transfer fees (or at least trying to negotiate the best deals we can, which will hopefully stop the 30% premiums that come with player prices when the name man utd is mentioned) and we are targeting players with a particular type of character, which will eventually lead to the correct environment in the dressing room. The squad is clearly not deep enough, while also being young to the point that the team can be infuriatingly inconsistent. We have lost our two best players for significant periods of the season, along with various other 1 month+ injuries to other important members of the squad. We have played games non-stop because we have only just exited our first competition (although you wouldn't have thought so reading peoples' comments here). You'd think our own fans would give the team a break given all these factors, but it doesn't seem like it.

To put it into context, if you list the players that have departed since ole came to my past self he would have been over the moon. We should have obviously bought an extra attacking player or two in the summer but I don't for a second believe ole was happy with the inability of Woodward of getting them, so he's had to make due. But I'll choose to be an optimist and say that missing out on 2nd choice forwards last summer might give us the opportunity to sign premium ones this upcoming summer (Here comes a flood of replies telling me how no player would ever sign to a terrible team like Man Utd... :rolleyes:)
Thanks - a good analysis and exactly how I feel. Some of the prima donnas on here make me smile :-)
 

RedRoseTyke

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if the greatest manager in the history of football can turn it around after a bad start, so can Ole.
SAF was unproven in the First Division and far from the greatest manager in the history of football in the First Division when the fans wanted him out. Who can say definitively what Ole may go on to?

The argument wasn't lazy, it's a good one.
 

Nas-JR

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First, I appreciate and admire your maturity and reasonableness. Its admirable and something I shall strive to achieve.

But until that shit kicks in.... Let me go through the bold parts --

We paid 50M for AWB and 80M for Maguire. Didn't we eventually pay the amount that Sporting demanded, after months and months of nonsense. So.... "not yielding to ridiculously high transfer fees"? I beg to differ.

And Ed is at least trying? Hahaha I don't want to quote Yoda here, but it would be applicable. Maybe try a bit harder then, eh Ed?

Injuries happen to every team. Being surprised by them or using them as an excuse is amateurish.

I mean I think we have exited the competition for a Champions League spot. We didn't make the finals of the Carling Cup, but I guess they deserve a well done, and a pat on the head? The FA Cup just started, and yes, we made it out of our Europa League group! Lifetime contract and a knighting for all involved!

You trust that we can identify premium signings, much less get them over the line? And if the reports I'm seeing are correct, maybe we'll be limited to only the premium clients of Ole's agents and business partners. Hopefully they have a few good ones for us! The remainder of the football world? They can go somewhere else.
Well I do hope you mean that first part, cause if i wasn't those things and at the same time a fan of man utd, I'd drive myself crazy (As half the cafe appear to do!).

Your're right, the fees perhaps don't suggest reflect a change of strategy on initial viewing but I do genuinely believe each of these teams compromised on what they initially wanted. I think 48+add ons for bruno is a very good deal whichever way you look at it. 50 mil for a starting rb in the prem who is 21 is not a bad deal either. The problem with the maguire deal is three-fold; shortage of quality defenders that fit in, our known desperate need for a cb, and Leicester themselves being affluent. we were always going to be overpaying one way or another, if not for him then for another cb for similar reasons above. and James was very good value for money.

The problem when discussing transfers these days is that it is clearly a sellers market. Every elite club seems to be overpaying for players (even when they are average, Chelsea paid 70 mil for an average goalkeeper!! Arsenal 70+ for pepe, city for most of their defenders). I feel the last 2 transfer windows we have operated as well as our circumstances allow us to. we have tried to be tough in negotiations, evidenced by the length of these negotiations, and have got compromise from teams (even if the press refuse to acknowledge them), and acquired players with good attitudes and modest wages.


When it comes to Ed, no one can deny he has managed the footballing side atrociously the last 4/5 years. But I look at it this way, what are the realistic scenarios that could happen in the future? The first is he gets sacked, something that is extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon. The second is no change; obviously no one wants that. The third is a restructuring of the management of the football side. The last imo is what happened over the summer behind the scenes. Not with a director of football, which everyone seems to be drooling over (I don't understand why this is the only successful model of running of football club), but a restructuring nonetheless. The effects of this has led to us being far more ruthless in getting rid of the deadwood and mercenaries (to reiterate, the players that have left are: Fellaini, rojo, young, smalling, darmian, lukaku, sanchez, and an out of contract herrera) and a refusal to grant big wages to undeserving players, and ensuring incoming players are on modest wages. We've also identified a type of profile of player that we are consistently targeting (that is, the right mentality and ethos).

THIS IS GOOD FOR US IN THE LONG TERM. In the short term it leaves us with a depleted and young squad, that will be exposed by injuries (as it has been) and will lack quality and consistency (clear for everyone to see). But we have to tear it down to build it back up properly. I have seen enough of this process to believe (in my humble opinion) that Ole can assemble a strong squad. Now whether he is good enough as a coach to win titles with this assembled squad is up for debate (I don't personally believe he is); we will cross that bridge when we get to it.

I understand the frustration of people, I really do as I go through it a well, but I think it is important to reflect on the circumstances we are operating in and be rational about how we judge where our team is, otherwise we will always be going through the same cycle of failure under new management.
 

Sea-Cow

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Nov 28, 2015
Messages
319
Well I do hope you mean that first part, cause if i wasn't those things and at the same time a fan of man utd, I'd drive myself crazy (As half the cafe appear to do!).

Your're right, the fees perhaps don't suggest reflect a change of strategy on initial viewing but I do genuinely believe each of these teams compromised on what they initially wanted. I think 48+add ons for bruno is a very good deal whichever way you look at it. 50 mil for a starting rb in the prem who is 21 is not a bad deal either. The problem with the maguire deal is three-fold; shortage of quality defenders that fit in, our known desperate need for a cb, and Leicester themselves being affluent. we were always going to be overpaying one way or another, if not for him then for another cb for similar reasons above. and James was very good value for money.

The problem when discussing transfers these days is that it is clearly a sellers market. Every elite club seems to be overpaying for players (even when they are average, Chelsea paid 70 mil for an average goalkeeper!! Arsenal 70+ for pepe, city for most of their defenders). I feel the last 2 transfer windows we have operated as well as our circumstances allow us to. we have tried to be tough in negotiations, evidenced by the length of these negotiations, and have got compromise from teams (even if the press refuse to acknowledge them), and acquired players with good attitudes and modest wages.


When it comes to Ed, no one can deny he has managed the footballing side atrociously the last 4/5 years. But I look at it this way, what are the realistic scenarios that could happen in the future? The first is he gets sacked, something that is extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon. The second is no change; obviously no one wants that. The third is a restructuring of the management of the football side. The last imo is what happened over the summer behind the scenes. Not with a director of football, which everyone seems to be drooling over (I don't understand why this is the only successful model of running of football club), but a restructuring nonetheless. The effects of this has led to us being far more ruthless in getting rid of the deadwood and mercenaries (to reiterate, the players that have left are: Fellaini, rojo, young, smalling, darmian, lukaku, sanchez, and an out of contract herrera) and a refusal to grant big wages to undeserving players, and ensuring incoming players are on modest wages. We've also identified a type of profile of player that we are consistently targeting (that is, the right mentality and ethos).

THIS IS GOOD FOR US IN THE LONG TERM. In the short term it leaves us with a depleted and young squad, that will be exposed by injuries (as it has been) and will lack quality and consistency (clear for everyone to see). But we have to tear it down to build it back up properly. I have seen enough of this process to believe (in my humble opinion) that Ole can assemble a strong squad. Now whether he is good enough as a coach to win titles with this assembled squad is up for debate (I don't personally believe he is); we will cross that bridge when we get to it.

I understand the frustration of people, I really do as I go through it a well, but I think it is important to reflect on the circumstances we are operating in and be rational about how we judge where our team is, otherwise we will always be going through the same cycle of failure under new management.
Good response. Now I feel kinda bad for being a smartass in my first comment as you respond reasonably and logically. Thats not how forums are supposed to work mate!

My only real quibble would be that I have absolutely no doubt that Ole should not be managing United, and I feel that every day we continue with him running the actual football side of things is just prolonging the slide. I don't see the logic in persisting with this when it is obvious that he is out of his depth. Could results improve if we splunk 300M in the summer? Of course they could. They would improve if I was the manager and we spent a bomb on new players. But would that change the formation, tactics, motivation, substitutions, etc? No it would not.

And I have huge doubts on trusting him to assemble a strong squad! What experience does he have in building squads? Why would we not have the absolute world's best in this area? What benefit is there persisting with amateurs? Are there no options out there who could do the same job of cutting the deadwood and mercenaries etc while also providing a clue to how to attack teams that sit deep? Who could make it look like the players have a plan when going forward?

If we consider ourselves to be the biggest club in the world then we should have the absolute best people in charge at every position in the club. Ed seems to be one of the best moneyman, commercial deal-getter, whatever you want to call it, in the world. So I am fine if the Glazers want him to stay there. But you cold never convince me that there is a benefit to not having the best manager, the best coaching staff, the best medical staff, the best facilities, the best scouts that could possibly be had. I know that isn't always feasible, but that should be the constant goal. Yes its not great to keep moving in new managers, but you have to keep trying until you find one that works. Were Arsenal wrong to pull the plug on Emery so soon? I think most Arsenal fans would say No and that they should have brought in Arteta sooner. Were City wrong to fire Pelligrini, who won them titles, when they wanted Pep? Of course not. SAF and Wenger are the exceptions and the rest of the world fires managers that are out of their depth.

Sticking with the old boys network of ex-players because they "get the club" is a recipe for disaster. And its an experiment that we can watch in real-time as the club continues to falter.

Went on a bit of a rant. Sorry
 

tjb

Full Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
829
Sick of seeing us try and play out from the back over and over and over and over.

It's so predictable and we don't have the personnel for it. The opposition can see it coming a mile off. We need to hit them by surprise by playing it long once in a while.

It's like watching someone who isn't very good at FIFA select 'possession' as the tactical mode and thinking it will turn them into prime Barcelona by magic.
This is an area that I've never understood with us and some other teams. It's one thing when City or Barca do it, as the action matches their style, philosophy and is a tool for the outcome they want. Every decent team needs to be able to play the ball out of the back to one degree or the other when the opportunity presents itself, but the constant need to do it for us does not make sense. We have a midfield of combative players ( when Mctominay and Pogba are fit) who can consistently win aerial duels, tackles and interceptions. If the ball is played to areas closer to the opposition goal or to the midfield, we have a midfield with the attributes to win the second ball, something that neither Barca or City have.

The fact of the matter is we do not have the required qualities within our team to build up slowly from attacks and have not had this within our team as far back as 2009. What we do have is a team capable of playing with intensity and aggression, with the speed and individual attacking quality to hurt teams when given space. Building up from the back slowly ( as we do not have the passing quality within the side to make it quick, truth is most sides do not have this) allows the opposition to set up in a low block, a tactic that we have found really difficult to break down.
 

tjb

Full Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
829
Well I do hope you mean that first part, cause if i wasn't those things and at the same time a fan of man utd, I'd drive myself crazy (As half the cafe appear to do!).

Your're right, the fees perhaps don't suggest reflect a change of strategy on initial viewing but I do genuinely believe each of these teams compromised on what they initially wanted. I think 48+add ons for bruno is a very good deal whichever way you look at it. 50 mil for a starting rb in the prem who is 21 is not a bad deal either. The problem with the maguire deal is three-fold; shortage of quality defenders that fit in, our known desperate need for a cb, and Leicester themselves being affluent. we were always going to be overpaying one way or another, if not for him then for another cb for similar reasons above. and James was very good value for money.

The problem when discussing transfers these days is that it is clearly a sellers market. Every elite club seems to be overpaying for players (even when they are average, Chelsea paid 70 mil for an average goalkeeper!! Arsenal 70+ for pepe, city for most of their defenders). I feel the last 2 transfer windows we have operated as well as our circumstances allow us to. we have tried to be tough in negotiations, evidenced by the length of these negotiations, and have got compromise from teams (even if the press refuse to acknowledge them), and acquired players with good attitudes and modest wages.


When it comes to Ed, no one can deny he has managed the footballing side atrociously the last 4/5 years. But I look at it this way, what are the realistic scenarios that could happen in the future? The first is he gets sacked, something that is extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon. The second is no change; obviously no one wants that. The third is a restructuring of the management of the football side. The last imo is what happened over the summer behind the scenes. Not with a director of football, which everyone seems to be drooling over (I don't understand why this is the only successful model of running of football club), but a restructuring nonetheless. The effects of this has led to us being far more ruthless in getting rid of the deadwood and mercenaries (to reiterate, the players that have left are: Fellaini, rojo, young, smalling, darmian, lukaku, sanchez, and an out of contract herrera) and a refusal to grant big wages to undeserving players, and ensuring incoming players are on modest wages. We've also identified a type of profile of player that we are consistently targeting (that is, the right mentality and ethos).

THIS IS GOOD FOR US IN THE LONG TERM. In the short term it leaves us with a depleted and young squad, that will be exposed by injuries (as it has been) and will lack quality and consistency (clear for everyone to see). But we have to tear it down to build it back up properly. I have seen enough of this process to believe (in my humble opinion) that Ole can assemble a strong squad. Now whether he is good enough as a coach to win titles with this assembled squad is up for debate (I don't personally believe he is); we will cross that bridge when we get to it.

I understand the frustration of people, I really do as I go through it a well, but I think it is important to reflect on the circumstances we are operating in and be rational about how we judge where our team is, otherwise we will always be going through the same cycle of failure under new management.
You are right that fees are inflated and the consequences of this inflation has been how slow the current rebuild is and will be. We cannot afford to bring in too many players and the value of the players we have going out are not impressive either. Further to that, the wages of the players we plan to ship out makes it difficult to get rid of them and receive decent transfer fees for them. With our outgoing transfers, we essentially have had and will have to write off their values due to this, a mistake that Ed and the previous regimes were responsible for. We are also in a spot where fans are not as patient anymore due to how long and how disasterous the previous attempt of a rebuild was (LVG). Mourinho tried to evolve the squad and that too was a failure. The truth is, the players that were let go of, should always have been sold, but they should also have been replaced. What we currently have is a first xi strung with players that have no business being at the club and literally no reliable options for certain positions. A club like united should never find themselves in that situation.

As far as Woodward is concerned, I agree with the fact that recently he has been getting things done, but as far as the negotiating for transfers and the media leaks go, we have been hearing negative tunes since he took over. It seems to me and the rest of the fans that we consistently struggle to get players despite that size and brand of the club. You cannot convince me that good players better than the ones we currently have would want to go to man utd. In the same span of time, good players in the market went to Liverpool who were in a far more precarious position than we are now. They were not making the champions league year in year out and did not have anywhere near the brand that we had and currently have. Every team has to deal with agents, every team has to deal with the inflated market prices, yet we seem to miss out on good deals that some clubs have made and seem to always in a position of teams trying to haggle with us on fees. This has nothing to do with it being man utd, but has to do with the quality of our negotiators, the prospects that our scouts find, the power of the managers to dictate signings and the ability of our directors to build relationships with these agents and club negotiators. His job on transfers should be to make those deals happen as quickly and effectively as possible, ensuring we get the right players at the right time. If he is not good at making this happen, then he should hire a director of football that can take a lead in these situations.
 

Nas-JR

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 6, 2014
Messages
16
You are right that fees are inflated and the consequences of this inflation has been how slow the current rebuild is and will be. We cannot afford to bring in too many players and the value of the players we have going out are not impressive either. Further to that, the wages of the players we plan to ship out makes it difficult to get rid of them and receive decent transfer fees for them. With our outgoing transfers, we essentially have had and will have to write off their values due to this, a mistake that Ed and the previous regimes were responsible for. We are also in a spot where fans are not as patient anymore due to how long and how disasterous the previous attempt of a rebuild was (LVG). Mourinho tried to evolve the squad and that too was a failure. The truth is, the players that were let go of, should always have been sold, but they should also have been replaced. What we currently have is a first xi strung with players that have no business being at the club and literally no reliable options for certain positions. A club like united should never find themselves in that situation.

As far as Woodward is concerned, I agree with the fact that recently he has been getting things done, but as far as the negotiating for transfers and the media leaks go, we have been hearing negative tunes since he took over. It seems to me and the rest of the fans that we consistently struggle to get players despite that size and brand of the club. You cannot convince me that good players better than the ones we currently have would want to go to man utd. In the same span of time, good players in the market went to Liverpool who were in a far more precarious position than we are now. They were not making the champions league year in year out and did not have anywhere near the brand that we had and currently have. Every team has to deal with agents, every team has to deal with the inflated market prices, yet we seem to miss out on good deals that some clubs have made and seem to always in a position of teams trying to haggle with us on fees. This has nothing to do with it being man utd, but has to do with the quality of our negotiators, the prospects that our scouts find, the power of the managers to dictate signings and the ability of our directors to build relationships with these agents and club negotiators. His job on transfers should be to make those deals happen as quickly and effectively as possible, ensuring we get the right players at the right time. If he is not good at making this happen, then he should hire a director of football that can take a lead in these situations.
You are pretty much spot on there. We have done very well getting rid of players but very lethargic getting them in. I don't know how much of that is due to the quality of our negotiators and how much is due to our past dealings in the market that leads to agents and clubs trying to take advantage of us. I feel the constant negative press around the club also massively influences players' perceptions of our club and puts them off coming here (in the same way liverpool were a laughing stock in the early 2010s) and it takes time to change that image. I didn't want to judge our transfers in Jan because it's always very difficult to achieve.

To me, this summer is make or break for Ole and Ed. Identify your players early and get them in quickly. Enough room has been made in the squad for 4-5 signings and you'd hope management have identified that, and more importantly the players to fill these spots. It is up to Ole to get that champions league spot this year to improve our chances of getting these players, and if he doesn't, and we don't end up get the players in, he has no one to blame but himself.
 

Man of the Match

Harry Maguire image Harry Maguire 28% of 322 votes

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Score Predictions

187,25,39
  • Man Utd win
  • Wolves win
  • Draw

Detailed Results

  • 26% Man Utd 2:1 Wolves
  • 22% Man Utd 2:0 Wolves
  • 12% Man Utd 1:1 Wolves
  • 10% Man Utd 1:0 Wolves
  • 7% Man Utd 3:1 Wolves
  • 7% Man Utd 3:0 Wolves
  • 4% Man Utd 1:2 Wolves
  • 2% Man Utd 0:2 Wolves
  • 2% Man Utd 0:1 Wolves
  • 2% Man Utd 0:0 Wolves
  • 2% Man Utd 2:2 Wolves
  • 1% Man Utd 4:0 Wolves
  • 1% Man Utd 4:1 Wolves
  • 1% Man Utd 0:5 Wolves
  • 1% Man Utd 5:0 Wolves
  • 0% Man Utd 1:3 Wolves
  • 0% Man Utd 0:3 Wolves
  • 0% Man Utd 4:2 Wolves
Compiled from 251 predictions.
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