CL L Champions League Champions League Group F

Young Boys 2:1 Manchester United

Post-match discussion


Tue, 14 September 2021

OrcaFat

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We did fine with 11 men, struggled with 10. Away in Europe that’s not shocking. But again we lacked a leader in CM. Put Roy Keane in there and we see that out for a 1-0 (if he doesn’t get sent off as well).
 

Offside

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That reminded me of two games.

The first was the 2-1 defeat to Bayern Munich in 2010 where they equalised with a lucky goal, then we gave them a late winner with an inexplicable late error.

The second was the 2-1 defeat to PSV in 2015 where we went 1-0 up in our opening game, were cruising and then the game changed when Shaw got injured.

Both games I was seething long into the night as I am now.
 

DSG

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Not sure if you watched the second half but what actually happened is we went to a back 3, and then got our arses completely handed to us with crosses coming freely into the box whenever Young Boys felt like it.

I don't understand how there is any logic in this iin the scenario of being a man down,, since teams who play 3 centrebacks aren't particularly better at not conceding goals when put under pressure as opposed to teams who don't, but that's kind of besides the point, as the point is that it would, very obviously, put us under more pressure.

When you are a man down, and set up with a back four, changing it to a back 5 means you are then two men down, outside of your defence, which means your defence is under much more pressure unless you change the entire system and tactics, at which point whether there are two or three centrebacks is probably not going to matter much since the whole team will be back anyway, desperately clearing the balll over and over.

There's no point trying to deploy some kind of clever tactic (that ignores the fact players aren't actually pieces on a chess board) if it means you can't even do the simple things like keep the ball away from your own penalty area.

If he did want to bring on an extra defender, then subbing off VDB or Fred was a definite "don't do this" move, as Pogba and Fernandes are not midfielders or possession players, they are attacking players who disappear into a void if you aren't set up to attack, and you can't play with 10 men and with one fecking midfielder and one forward, and expect to do anything other than hopelessly cling on. Maybe you do it for 5 minutes at the end when the players are knackered. Not for an entire bloody half.

If he had to do it he could have taken off Pogba or Fernandes at that point rather than have two players effectively doing nothing, and if he didn't want to take either off he shouldn't have brought the extra defender on and rendered them both pointless.

We can go on about hindsight but there's a common theme with Ole of watching the game and being able to see the mistakes he's making before or as they end up costing us. It is, for example, why this thread exists.
See, the difference between you and I is that you are really good at at shaking your fist and pounding the table, denouncing everything and everyone without a clue or suggestion on how you would fix it. I explained why he went to a back 3 and why it was the right choice. If you’re going to counter, at least have the balls to say what you would have done that was different than Ole’s tactical change. You are saying take off Pogba or Fernandes and replace them with who? And what would be your tactics? How would you deal with constant 3v2s in midfield and only one striker?

sometimes there is no good answer. I realize you are frustrated and need someone to blame because it’s easy, but it’s not fair to Ole in this case, mate.
 

Magical Manchester United

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Can anyone think of an example of a team having just two shots in an entire game and none for 65 minutes? In a game where they were favourites?

I'm struggling to think of one.

Always Man United have to go that extra mile to embarrass.
 

DSG

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They won the Swiss league! The championship would be harder to win

we should of maintained an attacking presence, instead we simply let them have a go for 45 minutes. It’s pathetic management
Loud noises!!!!
 

DSG

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The formation was a disaster because you had one actual midfielder. Calling it a 5-3-1 is generous even; it'd be better described as 5-1-2-1.

Shaw was out of position because Maguire had to step up because again, there is only one central midfielder. Shaw then has to tuck in, resulting in literally 30% of your own final third being completely unoccupied.

Putting on another centre half makes no sense when they are stuck behind a non-existent midfield. An extra body in the box is meaningless when you have no means to control the ball after recovering it.
Yet we gave up next to nothing dangerous until the goal for 30 minutes, a man down
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Ronaldo will be furious. Ole better get his shit together because this shit won’t be acceptable now we have actual winners at the club. Ronaldo & Varane are here to win this competition not go out in the group stages. If he repeats the disgrace of last year I expect him gone.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Yet we gave up next to nothing dangerous until the goal for 30 minutes, a man down

It's not just about not giving up anything - without actually being able to control the ball to allow your players to get up the pitch, you also torpedo any chance of attacking. Also, are the standards that low at Manchester fecking United that going 30 minutes against a Swiss side without facing an overabundance of dangerous situations even whilst down to 10 is somehow a thing to be commended? Based on the disparity in quality you should be ashamed if you are the less threatening of the two sides in this scenario, much less if you are somewhat under the cosh but offer nothing in attack.
 

RUCK4444

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Ronaldo will be furious. Ole better get his shit together because this shit won’t be acceptable now we have actual winners at the club. Ronaldo & Varane are here to win this competition not go out in the group stages. If he repeats the disgrace of last year I expect him gone.
It's AWB and Jesse he ought to be furious with. You will no doubt try but I don't think he will agree that Ole has somehow instructed the pair of them to conspire to entirely feck up tonight's game.
 

Leroy The Red

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Next time I’ll use small words :lol:
I’m reading your posts. Seriously what planet are you on? Why are you sticking by that absolute nonsense about the “531 working”. Is this like trolling or something ? If it is I don’t really get it :houllier:
 

mu4c_20le

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It's not just about not giving up anything - without actually being able to control the ball to allow your players to get up the pitch, you also torpedo any chance of attacking. Also, are the standards that low at Manchester fecking United that going 30 minutes against a Swiss side without facing an overabundance of dangerous situations even whilst down to 10 is somehow a thing to be commended? Based on the disparity in quality you should be ashamed if you are the less threatening of the two sides in this scenario, much less if you are somewhat under the cosh but offer nothing in attack.
Well... yes. It means we were defending well despite not controlling possession, and we were a goal up at the time. We could have done better after the red, but you are really disrespecting them as just some swiss team. They are this year's Basel.

Also you were at home today and you should have lost, if you weren't so lucky. Since you like stats so much:

 

Okey

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It's one game, and with mitigating circumstances, so personally I won't analyse it to death. Let's wait for the next 2. Except I can't escape the nagging feeling of having seen this movie before, where all there is at the end is an abundance of excuses instead of reward. We'll see...
 

RedDevilQuebecois

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That happens when your coaching staff won't challenge the manager
The biggest indictment against a manager is when he doesn't hire experienced people who can bring a different opinion that matters. Ole is a coward and nothing less by not picking that truly experienced and vocal guy next to him. Carlos Queiroz was available between December and just a few days ago for crying out loud.

Conte, Ancelotti, Mourinho and Rafa would absolutely destroy teams with this squad.
I would strongly consider taking Zidane in if it were for me. And if my memory serves right, we wasted Young Boys 3-0 as we were starting to decline under Mourinho. As for Ole, I say he has been given enough rope by now after nearly 3 full years; he can only hang himself with that said rope as far as the saying goes.
 

Desert Eagle

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Keep in mind, this was probably the second easiest game of our group stage. We need back to back home wins now. Anything less and we could be in the same position as last year maybe worse
 

caid

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Young Boys were a decent team tbh.
Kind of disgusted with a few individuals on our side and losing patience with them fast. Who they are is obvious.
 

Okey

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Young Boys were a decent team tbh.
Kind of disgusted with a few individuals on our side and losing patience with them fast. Who they are is obvious.
We gave them nothing to fear. Yes we went down to 10 but our obvious response was to cower. Their already hyped motivation only increased. They're a good side of course, but if we faced them up even with 10 men, with a properly structured approach, they would step back. We have the better players all over the pitch after all. Any chance the game goes this way if they played the other top 4 teams in England?
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Well... yes. It means we were defending well despite not controlling possession, and we were a goal up at the time. We could have done better after the red, but you are really disrespecting them as just some swiss team. They are this year's Basel.

Also you were at home today and you should have lost, if you weren't so lucky. Since you like stats so much:

I mean, at least use the same source?

Also not sure why you're trying to deflect things towards Chelsea as if that invalidates anything I've said? I find it baffling the extent to which standards have dropped where a semi-decent 30 minute stretch of a match where you held a team from the 14th best league in Europe at bay whilst creating nothing is apparently genuinely a reason to support the manager.
 

Blood Mage

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xG is so meaningless and I really don't understand the obsession with it. I'm not saying we weren't complete shite tonight but still.
 

mu4c_20le

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I mean, at least use the same source?

Also not sure why you're trying to deflect things towards Chelsea as if that invalidates anything I've said? I find it baffling the extent to which standards have dropped where a semi-decent 30 minute stretch of a match where you held a team from the 14th best league in Europe at bay whilst creating nothing is apparently genuinely a reason to support the manager.
Mine is a better source, who the feck is Caley graphics? And I'm not deflecting anything, I gave you my thoughts, I just wanted to know what's your excuse playing at Stamford Bridge and dominating possession against some russian side and still looking like you should have lost.
 

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It was when we went down to 10, they equalised and the crowd got well into the game. The goal is to get out of the group and it would have been a good point. I get it though. I’d have been gutted with a point in those circumstances on Football Manager too mate.
A point against one of the weakest teams in the competition would not have been a good point. Oh my god the crowd was loud? Is that your excuse for that performance? We have had wins against bigger teams in much bigger stadiums in front of much louder crowds. What a stupid excuse. You obviously miss the point anyway. How you can actually defend that performance and not see it as anything but cowardly baffles me.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Mine is a better source, who the feck is Caley graphics? And I'm not deflecting anything, I gave you my thoughts, I just wanted to know what's your excuse playing at Stamford Bridge and dominating possession against some russian side and still looking like you should have lost.
xG Philosophy is absolutely not a better source mate - he's a thin-skinned twat who's blocked most of the analytics community and had no hand in developing any of the models. An opportunistic vulture who is trying to claim credit retrospectively. Caley_graphics is Michael Caley, who despite being an insufferable person to interact with is indisputably one of the godfathers of xG.

And again, I've no idea why Chelsea are even relevant to this discussion - but if you insist then my response would be that Zenit are comfortably better than Young Boys and that aside from a single chance they created very little. You'd be very hard pressed to say Chelsea should have lost that game - a draw might have been fair given the one big chance they created, but to say we should have lost has no basis in what happened.
 

owlo

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@TheMagicFoolBus it’s all smoke and mirrors for them to make excuses. Good teams/players regularly outperform their xG. It’s called good finishing/defending/goalkeeping.

Its also completely disingenuous considering how xG is simply a shot snapshot.

Not that the Chelsea game is relevant at all to the fact we were shite….The Dzyuba chance was a big miss though.
 

owlo

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xG is so meaningless and I really don't understand the obsession with it. I'm not saying we weren't complete shite tonight but still.
It’s not meaningless, just misunderstood.For example, look at the boxes in our game in the xG graphic above. The big 0.4ish chance drops to ronaldo, who probably converts those 90% of the time or more. Whereas in the Chelsea game the huge chance drops to a inferior player who is less likely to convert.

xG is in most models simply a freeze frame of a situation with a likelihood of whether they will score based on past data.
 

VidaRed

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Keep in mind, this was probably the second easiest game of our group stage. We need back to back home wins now. Anything less and we could be in the same position as last year maybe worse
Our next cl game is at home against villareal. If they park the bus and we aren't able to break them down and it ends in a goalless draw then the pressure will go through the roof in our remaining cl games as we'll need to win all of them and if you haven't noticed we don't fare well in high pressure games anymore.

Young Boys were a decent team tbh.
Kind of disgusted with a few individuals on our side and losing patience with them fast. Who they are is obvious.
Watch young boys get spanked by the other two teams. Then watch young boys again do the number on us and get a draw at OT. Its not young boys playing extraordinary but we playing shit.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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@TheMagicFoolBus it’s all smoke and mirrors for them to make excuses. Good teams/players regularly outperform their xG. It’s called good finishing/defending/goalkeeping.

Its also completely disingenuous considering how xG is simply a shot snapshot.

Not that the Chelsea game is relevant at all to the fact we were shite….The Dzyuba chance was a big miss though.
Agreed on all points - especially the Dzyuba chance! Definitely a heart in mouth moment.

I guess my point can be boiled down to this - I don't think it's normal for top teams to go ~65+ minutes without having a shot regardless of being a man down. It is massively beneficial for your defense to offer even a semblance of a threat - especially given the quality disparity. For me that's on Ole - he should have reinforced the midfield by taking off either Pogba or Bruno and brought on Greenwood for Ronaldo since he works hard and is a threat in behind on the counter.
 

Brexit_Brigade

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Having trouble quoting for some reason, but I really enjoyed the person a couple of posts above beginning by saying "xG is misunderstood" ... and following up with the classic and utterly nonsensical "Ronaldo is 90% likely to convert a 40% xG chance" fallacy.

How many goals has Ronaldo over-performed his xG by in the last five seasons? Think it was 5 or 6? He'd be scoring 120 a season if these ridiculous made-up numbers about his finishing powers were even close to true.
 

Seij

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Was Bruno injured? What was the reasoning behind taking both Ronaldo and Bruno off - the two players in the squad who could get a goal out of nowhere?
 

owlo

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Having trouble quoting for some reason, but I really enjoyed the person a couple of posts above beginning by saying "xG is misunderstood" ... and following up with the classic and utterly nonsensical "Ronaldo is 90% likely to convert a 40% xG chance" fallacy.

How many goals has Ronaldo over-performed his xG by in the last five seasons? Think it was 5 or 6? He'd be scoring 120 a season if these ridiculous made-up numbers about his finishing powers were even close to true.
Statistics are obviously hard. A 40% xG chance is a big chance. Elite strikers will score them regularly, not so elite ones won’t.

Ronaldo takes a lot of very low xG shots, so will obviously generate a lot of xG. This doesn’t mean he isn’t an elite finisher of big chances.

Lewandowski performs worse than his xG. He’s still an elite finisher who will similarly gobble up such chances.

The 90% figure was just plucked out of thin air though, it wasn’t meant to be accurate.
 

Brexit_Brigade

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Nope, sorry bud, you can't try the snide "statistics are obviously hard" act after posting that utter waffle.

And I know the 90% figure wasn't meant to be accurate, because it was laughably inaccurate.
 

cyril C

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Was Bruno injured? What was the reasoning behind taking both Ronaldo and Bruno off - the two players in the squad who could get a goal out of nowhere?
Taking tired legs off, when both Ronaldo and Bruno hardly defend, becoming sideline in a defensive battle, was effective. Would Matic be a better defensive option than Bruno, and Lingard can handle the counter-attack?

How useful was Bruno in the 2nd half, when we were no longer dominating possession. It was a pure counter-attack mode (if we got any chance to counter). And I would save Ronaldo's legs for the weekend game.

Similar argument got taking Fred off, he had a yellow already.

In fact, apart from taking risky choice on putting VDB as CMF (which was still OK until we were a man down), I rate highly on Ole's tactical changes. They were effective, until the 2nd mistake of the game. The team was let down by 2 elementary error
 

gerdm07

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Feel sorry for VdB, this would have been a good match for him to make a statement and I thought he was growing into the match. I was hoping in the 2nd half he could show he could play the 2 with Fred.

I thought all the subs made sense.
- Dalot straight swap for AWB to get to half
- There were always going to be many corners and crosses and 3 CBs made sense
- Ronaldo had to come off to save for future matches and asking Lingard to run around makes sense
- Fred was spent and had to come off with Matic replacing soon
- Leaving Pogba on makes sense because he can keep the ball from clears

I too was disappointed we could not keep the ball but YB deserve credit as they worked their buts off to pressure and wear us down.

Let's not overreact.
 

Ronaldo's Fan Boy

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Before the red card, we were doing decent, not the best but nothing to indicate that we would end up losing or even a draw.

Many of you think little of Young Boys, but this is Champions League, they are also champions. To play in CL with 10 men for 60 minutes in an away stadium on astroturf is not that easy. However we still managed to keep it 1-1 until 95th minute, and that is acceptable in my opinion.

Then Lingard happened...

I was really mad. I was cursing at AWB, Lingard, Ole... but now when things settled down, I've accepted it as an unlucky event. I believe that the team will rise up for the West Ham game, and ultimately, we will qualify for the next stage of Champions League.
 

smi11ie

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2 players cost Utd the points AWB and Lingard. Ole is responsible tactically for the lack of chances created after the red card. I still think Utd can qualify but I won't be suprised if they don't.
 

croadyman

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Ronaldo will be furious. Ole better get his shit together because this shit won’t be acceptable now we have actual winners at the club. Ronaldo & Varane are here to win this competition not go out in the group stages. If he repeats the disgrace of last year I expect him gone.
Won't be going anywhere if he snatches top 4 again
 

1988

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This cowardly and negative 8-1-0 formation still gets me fuming. Embarrassing, even a man down. We should've stuck to a 5-3-1 and been higher up the pitch.

I absolutely hate when Solskjær parks the bus with these negative formation changes.

Going a man down doesn't have to be such a huge disaster. We've seen other teams handle it. Recently too.
 

Player Ratings

4.9 Total Average Rating

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Compiled from 280 ratings.

Score Predictions

265,4,3
  • Man Utd win
  • Young Boys win
  • Draw

Detailed Results

  • 29% Young Boys 0:3 Man Utd
  • 22% Young Boys 0:2 Man Utd
  • 13% Young Boys 1:3 Man Utd
  • 11% Young Boys 0:4 Man Utd
  • 9% Young Boys 1:2 Man Utd
  • 8% Young Boys 0:5 Man Utd
  • 3% Young Boys 1:4 Man Utd
  • 1% Young Boys 1:5 Man Utd
  • 1% Young Boys 0:1 Man Utd
  • 1% Young Boys 2:0 Man Utd
  • 1% Young Boys 1:1 Man Utd
  • 0% Young Boys 0:0 Man Utd
  • 0% Young Boys 3:0 Man Utd
  • 0% Young Boys 5:0 Man Utd
  • 0% Young Boys 2:4 Man Utd
Compiled from 272 predictions.
Show more results Score Predictions League Table

Match Stats

  1. Young Boys
  2. Man Utd
Possession
54% 46%
Shots
19 2
Shots on Target
5 2
Corners
8 1
Fouls
14 3