Potential Matic Replacements

theklr

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What about Emre?
 

red woppit

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Oh apologies, for some reason I was thinking of the Sheffield game this weekend. Those dead-rubber Europa away games are probably what's best for Garner and even Tchong to prove their worth, so glad ole went full steam at home in our previous Europa game, giving us this opportunity to rest key players and assess where we are with some of the young crop.
No problem, I didn't exactly make it clear what I meant though, but you are right, not the sort of game to start Garner in.
 

backofthenet

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I don't care. I can either use the TransferMarkt values or I can make my own up. TransferMarkt values are not 'utter crap'. In many cases, they're close to the price last paid for the player.

Anyhow, I aleady said Ndiddi, Arthur and Thiago are not going to be available. So the price for them is mute. That I included them only to compare with the other 6.

The question is what will the other 6, who are available, cost? 2 of them play in top leagues. The other 4 play at tier 2. The most ever paid for a player from Brazil is the €40m paid for Neymar. Henrique will go for between £20m and £30m. Probably to Barca. Koopmeiners, Bielik, Phillips, Camavinga will probably go for between £15m and £35m (tops). Roca for about £35m. Koopmeiners, Bielik, Phillips, Henrique, and Camavinga will be good value (if bought now) compared to the 3 established players in the list.
Sorry, but they are when the premier league teams come calling, especially ones as wealthy as United. It's pick a number, add a zero and double it generally. There is no way that if we were to approach Derby or Leeds for a player with 5 years on his contract that we'd get away with less than 50m. If Newcastle could demand that for a lad that'd played half a dozen games and only had 2 years on his contract, think of what these comparative veterans would cost. Camavinga we'd be looking at Martial money probably. There's no point in discussing South American players as they go to Spain or Portugal or Italy first. It's just the way it works. Roca there may be a release clause so I'll give you that one, but you can guarantee that Alkmaar will have looked at how much De Jong was sold for from Ajax last year when someone approaches them for their lad. I'm sorry, but you cannot expect to get "cheap" players when you're United unless they have very little contract left.
 

Mark Pawelek

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Between Marc Roca, Camavinga, Phillips and Koopmeiners who would you sign to play alongside Mcctominay
Koopmeiners!, as I don't think Camavinga is ready for the PL. Phillips & Roca don't really dribble, and I want my DMC to do that; especially when playing 2 of them. Out of only those 4 it's: Koopmeiners > Camavinga > Phillips > Roca. Roca is always my last choice out of the 6.
 

Mark Pawelek

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Sorry, but they are when the premier league teams come calling, especially ones as wealthy as United. It's pick a number, add a zero and double it generally. There is no way that if we were to approach Derby or Leeds for a player with 5 years on his contract that we'd get away with less than 50m. If Newcastle could demand that for a lad that'd played half a dozen games and only had 2 years on his contract, think of what these comparative veterans would cost. Camavinga we'd be looking at Martial money probably. There's no point in discussing South American players as they go to Spain or Portugal or Italy first. It's just the way it works. Roca there may be a release clause so I'll give you that one, but you can guarantee that Alkmaar will have looked at how much De Jong was sold for from Ajax last year when someone approaches them for their lad. I'm sorry, but you cannot expect to get "cheap" players when you're United unless they have very little contract left.
1. Players have terms written in their contracts. Otherwise, how did we get James for £18m?
2. I agree PL clubs are extortionate; but they are terrified of relegation, or missing out on top 4 after losing a player. Very costly for them to get relegated or miss out on Champions League.
3. Outside the top leagues, clubs can't be so extortionate. If you were Championship, why would you keep Phillips when you can get 4 or 5 times what you paid for him and use the money to buy 4 players who'll be as good (after another 1 or 2 years). Anyhow if Leeds won't sell Phillips there are other clubs - why I wrote a list with 6 in it.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Koopmeiners!, as I don't think Camavinga is ready for the PL. Phillips & Roca don't really dribble, and I want my DMC to do that; especially when playing 2 of them. Out of only those 4 it's: Koopmeiners > Camavinga > Phillips > Roca. Roca is always my last choice out of the 6.
Why's Roca your last choice? Bayern wanted him and watching his highlights he's a good deep lying playmaker. Very good passer. Plus he plays in La Liga which is a stronger league than your other options. Also has a release clause so he's very gettable.

About this Koppmeiners lad... is he good? How does he play, what are his attributes, can he adapt to the premier league, is he good defensively, what will he add to our team
 

Mark Pawelek

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Why's Roca your last choice? Bayern wanted him and watching his highlights he's a good deep lying playmaker. Very good passer. Plus he plays in La Liga which is a stronger league than your other options. Also has a release clause so he's very gettable.

About this Koppmeiners lad... is he good? How does he play, what are his attributes, can he adapt to the premier league, is he good defensively, what will he add to our team
His outstanding attributes for DMC are he scores goals. SAF always bought players who were a goal threat. His second outstanding attribute is making loads of passes. I suppose he's more b2b like Fred; but Koppmeiners scored a lot of goals this season.
 

Mark Pawelek

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... About this Koppmeiners lad... is he good? How does he play, what are his attributes, can he adapt to the premier league, is he good defensively, what will he add to our team
  • b2b with good defensive game. Wears #8
  • Dutch. Speaks English as well as any of us.
  • Exceptional long shot.
  • Good free kick taker.
  • Left footer, who can also score long shots with his right!
  • Likes to get into the opposition box when in possession. Includes running past the last defender. As if he thinks he's a striker.
He's my new fave total football Dutch player
 

Adnan

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Why's Roca your last choice? Bayern wanted him and watching his highlights he's a good deep lying playmaker. Very good passer. Plus he plays in La Liga which is a stronger league than your other options. Also has a release clause so he's very gettable.

About this Koppmeiners lad... is he good? How does he play, what are his attributes, can he adapt to the premier league, is he good defensively, what will he add to our team
Koopmeiners I mentioned on here as a potential Matic replacement after we played AZ in Holland.

He's a player with good vision and passing ability from a deeper position which would help with our buildup and ball retention. He's also tactictally very good and positionally too as a anchor. Also very adept on set-pieces and carries a goal threat which makes him a very intetesting prospect as a DM. I also don't think he'd cost alot either and can see us signing him for around the €20m mark. But that could change soon, due to the player being on the the cusp of breaking into the Dutch NT which will possibly see his value increase.
 

SamoyedSam

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He certainly stood out in the 45 minutes he played against England under 21s last night. He's calm, composed and he controlled the midfield. I haven't seen Foden as well marshalled at under 21 level. Definitely one to watch.
 

Bestietom

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I think that we will eventually bring in Fernandes in January, along with a striker. Then next summer If/when Pogba goes we will bring in another DM/Playmaker.
 

DarkRed

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Koopmeiners I mentioned on here as a potential Matic replacement after we played AZ in Holland.

He's a player with good vision and passing ability from a deeper position which would help with our buildup and ball retention. He's also tactictally very good and positionally too as a anchor. Also very adept on set-pieces and carries a goal threat which makes him a very intetesting prospect as a DM. I also don't think he'd cost alot either and can see us signing him for around the €20m mark. But that could change soon, due to the player being on the the cusp of breaking into the Dutch NT which will possibly see his value increase.
Would you say - buy and loan out as he is very young or buy and try to integrate straight away?
 

DarkRed

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How is Sean Longstaff doing this season so far? anybody watching Newcastle games?
I'm sure we will try to go for him at the winter window, but no overpaying so probably not gonna get him till the summer.
 

OleGunnar20

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According to my calculations shown here in the 'Value?' and 'Out of 10' columns, the best 2 DMCs to buy now are Teun Koopmeiners and Krystian Bielik (from a value perspective). The best 2, from an absolute perpective, are Teun Koopmeiners and Thiago. Koopmeiners does so well because he scored a large number of goals from midfield. Anyhow Thiago, Arthur and Ndiddi aren't going to be available. So looking at the 'Out of 10' column I see Matheus Henrique scores 8. I'd buy Teun Koopmeiners and Matheus Henrique. This is confirmed by watching them play. Koopmeiners scores goals (no point arguing against that). Henrique is just a very good footballer. We lost 2 midfielders last season. Matic is almost gone. If McTominay replaced Matic we still need 2 more.

PS:
Players in light green background are those I think we can sign now. Players in white background are for comparison purposes.
'Out of 10' : is a measure of marks out of 10 based on the performance of the top DMC I can find, who is Teun Koopmeiners.
'Value?' : measures 'value in the market' based on the TransferMarkt price (column: '£ m (T-Mrkt)') and absolute quality 'Out of 10'.
Darker green background = very good stat.

This is great, thanks for the info.

Can I ask what you use to collate and compare your stats?
 

Red Devil's Advocate

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How is Sean Longstaff doing this season so far? anybody watching Newcastle games?
I'm sure we will try to go for him at the winter window, but no overpaying so probably not gonna get him till the summer.
I don't think we need to chase him at all. We need a proven destroyer for the midfield. We already have a bunch of talented kids to make up the numbers..
 

DarkRed

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I don't think we need to chase him at all. We need a proven destroyer for the midfield. We already have a bunch of talented kids to make up the numbers..
But it was said by people that know his game that he is a perfect DM for the 4-2-3-1 formation, just like Carrick was, but with with a privilege to been trained by Carrick.
Anyhow, I think we will need two DMs anyway as we have non now...
 
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Mark Pawelek

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This is great, thanks for the info.

Can I ask what you use to collate and compare your stats?
I use a ridiculously long formula applied to Opta stats which adds up positives and negatives, weights results. It ends up with a score from about -10 to +60. It kind of works well for defenders and midfielders. Not well enough for strikers, and badly for goalies! Some things the formula doesn't pick up because the available Opta stats (Whoscored) are missing - such as distance covered during a game. It's the same formula for every position which doesn't really make sense because different positions need different strengths. Also different formations show some players in very good light - which my formula knows nothing about. For example: Maguire looked really good last season because he had Ndidi in his midfield tacking & harassing. So there's a lot wrong with my formula. The whole thing is in a spreadsheet right now but really needs a desktop application. It's already too slow with only 1000 players in the sheet. It's just a hobby thing.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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When I think about the best DMs that are available for teams to get only Ndidi Neves and Partey come to mind and that's it. Apart from these players
every other DM out there that we could get will be a gamble because most of them are unearthened gems at the moment. Whether it's Zakaria, Marc Roca, Berge, Sangare, Longstaff etc.

Each has a risk of failing to adapt to the Premier league or to the pressure of a big club because most of these gems are from an inferior club.

Phillips still remains my best candidate. He's Leeds best player so far, he's experienced given his age and also considering the number of quality players coming out of the championship lately I'd say he's a lesser gamble than a Berge or Zakaria
 

Mark Pawelek

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Linked to Leandro Paredes, who is a specialist DMC at PSG. Plays for Argentine national team too. He 3rd choice at PSG behind Veratti and Idrissa Gueye. So has only started 4 league games for this season. He's a regista; he'll always be the most central and deepest midfielder. He's not very fast. But he'll also dribble forward with the ball; and usually takes a few shots at goal per game. He'll average over 90 passes per game with a pass success = 94%; second to none. Excellent ball control and very difficult to dispossess. Dangerous free kicks too.

Paredes scores above Matic in every department apart from arial challenges. Hoping we get him.
 

sun_tzu

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Camavinga we'd be looking at Martial money probably.
I don't think we can legally sign camavinga ... Or indeed any under 18 European player can we

I thought the only reason we could now was because of the EU freedom of movement and single market... Which we are leaving

It will probably push up the price of UK players but should mean there is less competition for the elite u18 European talent so conversely you may see their prices / wage expectations actually drop
 

Stadjer

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Linked to Leandro Paredes, who is a specialist DMC at PSG. Plays for Argentine national team too. He 3rd choice at PSG behind Veratti and Idrissa Gueye. So has only started 4 league games for this season. He's a regista; he'll always be the most central and deepest midfielder. He's not very fast. But he'll also dribble forward with the ball; and usually takes a few shots at goal per game. He'll average over 90 passes per game with a pass success = 94%; second to none. Excellent ball control and very difficult to dispossess. Dangerous free kicks too.

Paredes scores above Matic in every department apart from arial challenges. Hoping we get him.
It doesnt sound right that Manchester United has to settle for PSG their third option.... why didnt we just try to get Gueye before PSG got him. Even the "needs EPL experience" shouters would have been pleased with it.
 

Lash

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It doesnt sound right that Manchester United has to settle for PSG their third option.... why didnt we just try to get Gueye before PSG got him. Even the "needs EPL experience" shouters would have been pleased with it.
Gueye is 30. You can guarantee everyone would have screamed blue murder if we bought him from Everton
 

Mark Pawelek

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It doesnt sound right that Manchester United has to settle for PSG their third option.... why didnt we just try to get Gueye before PSG got him. Even the "needs EPL experience" shouters would have been pleased with it.
Why didn't we buy Gueye before Everton got him for £7m? He was good enough in 2016. Probably because we had Mourinho as manager back then who wasn't interested.
 

croadyman

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I have noticed Vidal's name is being thrown around again for this January window, however you can't help thinking if this didn't happen in 2014 then there is no chance we are going to go back for him five years later. Personally I think there was serious doubts over his knee and that put United off pursuing him further when at his peak.
 

FujiVice

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Potential replacements for Matic? Ever thought about planting a tree at Carrington?
 

Okey

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Marc Roca looks an excellent fit. 23 years old and plays with such maturity already. Slightly off point I apologise, but add Dani Olmo and it'll look like a Catalan revolution. These are the kinds of players we should be gunning for - the right footballing profile, at clubs where we present an instant step up even in our current situation, won't cost the earth and have the potential to improve, even with a different manager. Go on scouts...earn that money!
 

Alabaster Codify7

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Marc Roca looks an excellent fit. 23 years old and plays with such maturity already. Slightly off point I apologise, but add Dani Olmo and it'll look like a Catalan revolution. These are the kinds of players we should be gunning for - the right footballing profile, at clubs where we present an instant step up even in our current situation, won't cost the earth and have the potential to improve, even with a different manager. Go on scouts...earn that money!

Anyone old enough to remember Sensible Soccer on the Megadrive?

If SS was still a thing, Marc Roca would be Marcos Rojo's name on the game. Like Brian Griggs.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Asides from Ndidi, Partey and Neves there really isn't any DM on the market that's proven. The rest are gems or just potential. Personally I think we need a DM that's quick and very solid defensively and can contribute in attack with long range passing. Ole has also stressed the need to control games and keep possession and you need a player that can do this/deep lying play maker

Kalvin Phillips is the best candidate for me. He's been Leeds best player so far and is very pivotal in their title race. He's averaging about 3.7 tackles per game, 1.5 interceptions, 2.1 aerials won, 0.3 dribbles, 1.1 clearances, dispossessed 0.7 times, 0.7 bad control, 5.1 long balls and 2.1 key passes. Currently has a rating of 7.41

My second best candidate will be Koopmeiners who plays for AZ. One of the hot prospects coming from Netherlands right now. So far he has average about 1.9 tackles per game, 0.9 aerials won, 1.6 clearances, 1.0 interceptions, 1.2 dribbles, dispossessed 1.0 times. 1.1 bad control, 1.0 key passes and 6.5 long balls. Currently has a rating of 7.44. It is also worth mentioning that he has scored 9 goals and has 2 assists and is just as good in the Europa league

Marc Roca is the next person I will call. With a rating of 6.64 averaging about 1.9 tackles, 1.4 interceptions, 1.0 aerials won, 1.5 clearances, 0.2 dribbles, dispossessed 0.7 times, bad control 1.0, 0.6 key passes and 5.8 long balls.

My next candidate is Krystian Bielik who plays for Derby County. Currently with a rating of 6.95. He averages 2.5 tackles, 1.7 interceptions, 2.1 aerials won, 1.0 dribbles, dispossessed 1.1 times, 3.3 clearances 1.4 bad control, 0.2 key passes and 3.1 long balls.

Florian Grillitsch will be next choice after Bielik. With a rating of 6.78, he averages 1.8 tackles, 1.2 interceptions, 1.5 clearances, 0.9 aerials won, 0.8 dribbles, dispossessed 1.3 times, 0.8 bad control, 1.2 key passes and 3.2 long ball

These 5 players are my main candidates. They are deep lying playmakers that can control games which we need since Ole also wants us to keep possession.

Stats may not be the best way to guage a player since there are some things that are not considered like the quality of the league. But right now there's scarcity of proven DMs for anybody to buy and what's on the market are basically just gems like Berge, Roca etc.

Other alternatives are; Sangare - If we want a ball winning midfielder like an Ndidi. Allan is also likely to leave in January although he's not a DM but since we're playing a double pivot he would slot in fine
 

Rocknrolla69er

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I think Phillips from Leeds would be a great signing and would fit with the stereo type of player Ole wants to sign, plays like a Trojan, his movement is brilliant and he's very physical with good passing, I'd be interested to see him play against our midfield as I think he d maul Fred. Would defiantly be a sensible signing even at around £25-30m.

A few are mentioning Paredes I'd posted a while ago on signing him as Carricks replacement, Have doubts if he could handle the pace of the prem could initially struggle like Fred , which guides me towards signing Phillips who's all action
 

DarkRed

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I think Phillips from Leeds would be a great signing and would fit with the stereo type of player Ole wants to sign, plays like a Trojan, his movement is brilliant and he's very physical with good passing, I'd be interested to see him play against our midfield as I think he d maul Fred. Would defiantly be a sensible signing even at around £25-30m.

A few are mentioning Paredes I'd posted a while ago on signing him as Carricks replacement, Have doubts if he could handle the pace of the prem could initially struggle like Fred , which guides me towards signing Phillips who's all action
But would Leeds sell him in the winter window? or this is more of a summer move?
Plus, what kind of player would be the best fit next to Pogba? more of a mobile midfield destroyer like Ndidi or a DLP?
 

Alabaster Codify7

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I think Phillips from Leeds would be a great signing and would fit with the stereo type of player Ole wants to sign, plays like a Trojan, his movement is brilliant and he's very physical with good passing, I'd be interested to see him play against our midfield as I think he d maul Fred. Would defiantly be a sensible signing even at around £25-30m.

A few are mentioning Paredes I'd posted a while ago on signing him as Carricks replacement, Have doubts if he could handle the pace of the prem could initially struggle like Fred , which guides me towards signing Phillips who's all action

I have doubts about Paredes' level of gammon.
 

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1st Choice: Wilfred Ndidi
2nd Choice: Florentino Luis / Valentin Rongier / Mikel Merino
Gambles: Eduardo Camavinga / Julien Weigl
 
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croadyman

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I think Phillips from Leeds would be a great signing and would fit with the stereo type of player Ole wants to sign, plays like a Trojan, his movement is brilliant and he's very physical with good passing, I'd be interested to see him play against our midfield as I think he d maul Fred. Would defiantly be a sensible signing even at around £25-30m.

A few are mentioning Paredes I'd posted a while ago on signing him as Carricks replacement, Have doubts if he could handle the pace of the prem could initially struggle like Fred , which guides me towards signing Phillips who's all action
Well that could happen in the fourth round of the FA cup if we could somehow find a way to end our recent hoodoo at Molineux, however if Ole is prepared to wait a little while for him then it's looking very likely that we will be seeing Leeds back in the prem next season.