Potential Matic Replacements

Adnan

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They show his preference for a counter attack with progressive and expansive passers. Anyone who can read can see that.

You've ignored lots of points so I assume you have no evidenced arguments against:
  • A line breaking passer being more beneficial in 90% of games
  • The fact we only have a 2.86m difference in average ball recovery position this season which is not an insurmountable distance for any DM to cover compared to Mourinho
  • Fabinho is playing in a tougher league against tougher opposition
  • Fabinho is playing to a higher standard consistently
  • Fabinho is a world class DM
  • Fabinho is a PL and CL winner
  • Fabinho is by every observable metric a better passer than Zakaria
  • You admit weaker leagues don't make players better than others
  • You admit you don't watch players like Koopmeiners so have no basis of argument against them
  • You accept that the stats used are from internationally recognised sources
  • You accept your argument is currently entirely anecdotal and unsubstantiated
  • You accept Zakaria's real strength is his progressive dribbling over passing
  • You accept the Bundesliga is inferior to the PL
  • You accept that Bundesliga graduates (both coaches and players) reference the increased demands of the PL regularly in interviews and suggest its tougher
  • You accept that silly anecdotes don't mean anything without evidence (ref Sean Dyche)
Therefore I conclude you accept you are wrong.

We were talking about Fabinho's passing compared to Zakaria's. Why would you fight so hard to prove he's a good passer if it wasn't important in a fast transitioning team?
You've been making far too many assumptions here about what i've said and every time I correct you, you respond with more.

Solskjaer doesn't say he requires expansive passers from deep and doesn't even mention the word 'expansive' we have Pogba and Bruno as expansive passers and even a ball playing CB can can provide that. Expansive passing from a DM is not a requirement. And what Solskjaer is describing is exactly what I believe he wants to play and what he used at Molde.

It's not only me that is saying he's a good passer of the ball. Honigstein mentioned the same and even described him as someone who could dictate a game via his passing in his piece in The Athletic. But I guess that won't be good enough for you, right?

Expansive passing for a DM is not important in a high press. That's true and there's many examples.
 
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BenitoSTARR

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The way I see it, even when Matic leaves, we have two ball winners in Fred and McTominay. In Pogba, we only have one proper ball playing centre midfielder. Fred is not bad on the ball, but he's no Pogba. That said, who is?

If I was Ole, I wouldn't even buy a DM yet. I'd buy a number 10, who can also play as an 8. That way, that player can come in for Bruno or play deep when Pogba is out.

One thing I learned against Norwich the other day is that, we still struggle to create from deep with McT and Fred. They may have just been having an off day, but everything was just so safe until Pogba came on.

If we can get a 10/8 who has similar playmaking abilities, then we wouldn't lack for creativity, especially when Pogba is rested.

Grealish has been a player mentioned, but not sure he would fare in a double pivot. He certainly has the physical qualities to look after himself in there, but there's so much more to it. Having the option to play him as a left midfielder, number 10 and number 8 would mean he'd also be getting loads of playing time.
I’d agree Fred and McTominay play currently more as ball winners than creative players. Which is why a DM like Koop would help as he has the creativity from deep too or could play in LCM in the double pivot to rest Pogba in smaller games.

Equally DVB would be a great LCM option or as back up No10.

Grealish seems more of a free roaming LW but No10 is a possible position.

I guess it comes down to priorities of the individual.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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I’d agree Fred and McTominay play currently more as ball winners than creative players. Which is why a DM like Koop would help as he has the creativity from deep too or could play in LCM in the double pivot to rest Pogba in smaller games.

Equally DVB would be a great LCM option or as back up No10.

Grealish seems more of a free roaming LW but No10 is a possible position.

I guess it comes down to priorities of the individual.
Yeah. Think if it was to come down the type of player we were going to sign, it should be a creative one, as opposed to a ball winner. The only thing with Koop is he doesn't play as a 10, so we'd be still be lacking a 10 if Bruno was out.

DvB has been mentioned, and someone I can certainly see us going for. Aaron Ramsey, despite his injury problems, too.

I feel Grealish, despite playing as a LW/10, has the attributes to play deeper. Carrick, Fernadinho, Schweinsteiger, Scholes, etc, all started higher up and settled into a deeper position. I reckon Grealish could do the same.
 

BenitoSTARR

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You've been making far too many assumptions here about what i've said and every time I correct you, you respond with more.

Solskjaer doesn't say he requires expansive passers from deep and doesn't even mention the word 'expansive' we have Pogba and Bruno as expansive passers and even a ball playing CB can can provide that. Expansive passing from a DM is not a requirement. And what Solskjaer is describing is exactly what I believe he wants to play and what he used at Molde.

It's not only me that is saying he's a good passer of the ball. Honigstein mentioned the same and even described him as someone who could dictate a game via his passing in piece in The Athletic. But I guess that won't be good enough for you, right?

Expansive passing for a DM is not important in a high press. That's true and there's many examples.
I’ve literally quoted you to show you lie, change goalposts, ignore points and don’t substantiate your points.

You’ve been making far too many poor claims with no evidence in the hopes that someone will just accept your opinion as gospel. Not today.

You still haven’t answered the bullet pointed list. If you disagree show why. But evidence it.

Progressive passing is my focus. Not expansive that seems to be your obsession. Progressive to Bruno and Pogba.

What Solskjaer is describing is his belief in counter attacking football literally google it.

He then goes onto say he wants good passers to break down low blocks.

Nobody is saying Zakaria is a bad passer stop once again changing the goalpost. The discussion was Fabinho is better by every metric. That doesn’t mean Zakaria is bad but he’s not as good as others.

I am aware of the articles about Zakaria and the one you reference who was he playing against that prompted the article? Was is Bayern Munich? Dortmund? Leipzig perhaps? Or was it Bundesliga cannon fodder?

It helps start fast counters and transitions. It’s important.
 

Adnan

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The way I see it, even when Matic leaves, we have two ball winners in Fred and McTominay. In Pogba, we only have one proper ball playing centre midfielder. Fred is not bad on the ball, but he's no Pogba. That said, who is?

If I was Ole, I wouldn't even buy a DM yet. I'd buy a number 10, who can also play as an 8. That way, that player can come in for Bruno or play deep when Pogba is out.

One thing I learned against Norwich the other day is that, we still struggle to create from deep with McT and Fred. They may have just been having an off day, but everything was just so safe until Pogba came on.

If we can get a 10/8 who has similar playmaking abilities, then we wouldn't lack for creativity, especially when Pogba is rested.

Grealish has been a player mentioned, but not sure he would fare in a double pivot. He certainly has the physical qualities to look after himself in there, but there's so much more to it. Having the option to play him as a left midfielder, number 10 and number 8 would mean he'd also be getting loads of playing time.
We also have a 17 year old Hannibal Mejbri who is among the best creative midfielders in the world for his age. Barring any injuries he will come into the first team by this time next year.
 
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BenitoSTARR

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We also have a 17 year old Hannibal Mejbri who is among the best creative midfielders in the world for his age. Barring any injuries he will come into the first by this time next year.
At least we can agree on this today.
 

Adnan

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I’ve literally quoted you to show you lie, change goalposts, ignore points and don’t substantiate your points.

You’ve been making far too many poor claims with no evidence in the hopes that someone will just accept your opinion as gospel. Not today.

You still haven’t answered the bullet pointed list. If you disagree show why. But evidence it.

Progressive passing is my focus. Not expansive that seems to be your obsession. Progressive to Bruno and Pogba.

What Solskjaer is describing is his belief in counter attacking football literally google it.

He then goes onto say he wants good passers to break down low blocks.

Nobody is saying Zakaria is a bad passer stop once again changing the goalpost. The discussion was Fabinho is better by every metric. That doesn’t mean Zakaria is bad but he’s not as good as others.

I am aware of the articles about Zakaria and the one you reference who was he playing against that prompted the article? Was is Bayern Munich? Dortmund? Leipzig perhaps? Or was it Bundesliga cannon fodder?

It helps start fast counters and transitions. It’s important.
Calm down..

Solskjaer is describing exactly what he played at Molde. Press high, win the ball quickly and create overloads which I've described. It's you that is confused and are failing to understand his words.

Point one lie I made, just one?

Progressive passing isn't a necessity for a DM in a team that plays a aggressive press. It's why Klopp was hugely successful with Sven Bender.

You mean the Bayern that lost to Gladbach with Zakaria and lost against the same team without him? Cannon fodder huh....

It does start fast counters but they could be started by a ball playing CB or even Pogba in a double pivot.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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We also have a 17 year old Hannibal Mejbri who is among the best creative midfielders in the world for his age. Barring any injuries he will come into the first by this time next year.
And you'd be confident of throwing him into centre midfield if Pogba is out? If so, fair enough. Not too familiar with him, but I've heard good things.
 

Adnan

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And you'd be confident of throwing him into centre midfield if Pogba is out? If so, fair enough. Not too familiar with him, but I've heard good things.
The Athletic were reporting Solskjaer almost threw him in as a 16 year old and would've done so if we didn't sign Fernandes.

If he's good enough then I'd throw him in for Pogba. He seems to be developing physically very well too and will be ready for opportunities, I'd imagine in a years time.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Calm down..

Solskjaer is describing exactly what he played at Molde. Press high, win the ball quickly and create overloads which I've described. It's you that is confused and are failing to understand his words.

Point one lie I made, just one?

Progressive passing isn't a necessity for a DM in a team that plays a aggressive press. It's why Klopp was hugely successful with Sven Bender.

You mean the Bayern that lost to Gladbach with Zakaria and lost against the same team without him? Cannon fodder huh....

It does start fast counters but they could be started by a ball playing CB or even Pogba in a double pivot.
I am pointing out exactly the behaviour shown. There is nothing to calm about merely observing using the eye test.

He didn’t mention a high press you did. Evidence your points.

I have already evidenced where you lied in a previous post. I’m not reposting.

We don’t play an aggressive press. We are just as comfortable sitting deeper. Explain why we are only 2.86m higher up the pitch?

Use your eyes to see how often we defend deep. We don’t play the same style as Borussia Mon or Liverpool.

You know my point Zakaria isn’t putting those performances in against quality opponents regularly. It’s the same criticism you level against Koop.

We don’t have a ball playing CB and how is the ball meant to get to Pogba? Do you really want him dropping between CBs for the ball or do you want him in attacking areas?

Until you start to evidence and substantiate your points I’m no longer going to respond. This is because I feel it’s now a waste of time as you have made little effort to engage points that have been outlined for you.

If you answer those points I’ll happily continue the discussion until then see ya.
 

BenitoSTARR

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And you'd be confident of throwing him into centre midfield if Pogba is out? If so, fair enough. Not too familiar with him, but I've heard good things.
That would be a risk tbh. He’s a terrific youth player but asking him to replace Pogba is different to giving him some first team action.
 

Adnan

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I am pointing out exactly the behaviour shown. There is nothing to calm about merely observing using the eye test.

He didn’t mention a high press you did. Evidence your points.

I have already evidenced where you lied in a previous post. I’m not reposting.

We don’t play an aggressive press. We are just as comfortable sitting deeper. Explain why we are only 2.86m higher up the pitch?

Use your eyes to see how often we defend deep. We don’t play the same style as Borussia Mon or Liverpool.

You know my point Zakaria isn’t putting those performances in against quality opponents regularly. It’s the same criticism you level against Koop.

We don’t have a ball playing CB and how is the ball meant to get to Pogba? Do you really want him dropping between CBs for the ball or do you want him in attacking areas?

Until you start to evidence and substantiate your points I’m no longer going to respond. This is because I feel it’s now a waste of time as you have made little effort to engage points that have been outlined for you.

If you answer those points I’ll happily continue the discussion until then see ya.
He didn't need to mention a high press. It's easy to decipher what he meant if one is familiar with his brand of football. Win the ball back quickly, catch the opposition on the wrong foot and overload = fast transitions

No you haven't evidenced where I lied but rather made many assumptions about what I said.

Why are we only 2.86 higher up the pitch? Maybe because we don't have the right personnel to play the high press. A new CB and DM with the requisite qualities would change that. But it's sensible of Ole to play the way he is because otherwise we'd get exposed defensively. We don't play like Liverpool etc because we don't have the players they do to play that way.

How is the ball meant to get to Pogba? Maybe Maguire might manage to get it to him or even a DM like Sven Bender who played under Klopp. You don't need to be a pass master to do that..
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Yeah. Think if it was to come down the type of player we were going to sign, it should be a creative one, as opposed to a ball winner. The only thing with Koop is he doesn't play as a 10, so we'd be still be lacking a 10 if Bruno was out.

DvB has been mentioned, and someone I can certainly see us going for. Aaron Ramsey, despite his injury problems, too.

I feel Grealish, despite playing as a LW/10, has the attributes to play deeper. Carrick, Fernadinho, Schweinsteiger, Scholes, etc, all started higher up and settled into a deeper position. I reckon Grealish could do the same.
Isn't this the dilemma. We would be lacking a DM if Matic was out.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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Isn't this the dilemma. We would be lacking a DM if Matic was out.
No, because we still have a ball winner in McTominay and Fred. We had Pogba and McTominay at the start of the season. Defensively we were fine. Where we lacked was breaking teams down.

Ball winner - Playmaker

I also think we can give a better judgement on whether we need a 'Matic replacement' when Fred and McTominay get more time next to Pogba.
 

Devil may care

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Martinez is also quite short for a CB at about 5'8 so playing in midfield would probably be best in the longrun.
Gotcha, looking at all the options that are floating through this thread it suddenly feels like the options are narrowing, and then you have journos saying we aren't even looking, that it's all about AM's and Sancho, with this idea that Matic can start week in and week out next season and the notion that McTominay can be groomed into his replacement, which I don't see at all, as Matic doesn't have the legs to keep form for long stretches and I think it takes away what Scott does best while trying to get him to do the weaker parts of his game as a major part of a role.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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No, because we still have a ball winner in McTominay and Fred. We had Pogba and McTominay at the start of the season. Defensively we were fine. Where we lacked was breaking teams down.

Ball winner - Playmaker

I also think we can give a better judgement on whether we need a 'Matic replacement' when Fred and McTominay get more time next to Pogba.
I'm positive we would be poor defensively and easily by passed in a Fred and Pogba double pivot. Mctominay seems the better fit next to Pogba but from the games that they played at the start of the season, the pairing didn't work. I'm willing to give it more time though because Mctominay has the ability. I think we should start using him as an Ndidi type of DM as they have similar traits just that Mctominay needs to learn positioning
 

Adnan

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Gotcha, looking at all the options that are floating through this thread it suddenly feels like the options are narrowing, and then you have journos saying we aren't even looking, that it's all about AM's and Sancho, with this idea that Matic can start week in and week out next season and the notion that McTominay can be groomed into his replacement, which I don't see at all, as Matic doesn't have the legs to keep form for long stretches and I think it takes away what Scott does best while trying to get him to do the weaker parts of his game as a major part of a role.
It'll be interesting to see how things develop. I feel the pandemic may have put this role on the back burner for now and we'll try and complete the Sancho signing which is more of a priority right now.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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I'm positive we would be poor defensively and easily by passed in a Fred and Pogba double pivot. Mctominay seems the better fit next to Pogba but from the games that they played at the start of the season, the pairing didn't work. I'm willing to give it more time though because Mctominay has the ability. I think we should start using him as an Ndidi type of DM as they have similar traits just that Mctominay needs to learn positioning
No point guessing though, is there? As I said, we would need to see it first.

Also, you're obviously going to say we were poor to suit your argument, but I can assure you the problem at the start of the season was not the pivot of McT and Pogba, but more so because we played with Lingard and Pereira as a 10 and couldnt create. Eventually what then happens is teams grow in confidence and punish you.

You only need to look at what Jose said about us and the reason he set up the way he did. Before Pogba came on, we didn't really create much. I think that's the importance of having two creative players in your midfield, whilst one focuses on the dirty jobs, so to speak.

Will McT and Pogba go on to be our first choice midfield, who knows? Only time will tell, but we'd need to give it time before coming up with an accurate assessment. Add Fred to that, too.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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No point guessing though, is there? As I said, we would need to see it first.

Also, you're obviously going to say we were poor to suit your argument, but I can assure you the problem at the start of the season was not the pivot of McT and Pogba, but more so because we played with Lingard and Pereira as a 10 and couldnt create. Eventually what then happens is teams grow in confidence and punish you.

You only need to look at what Jose said about us and the reason he set up the way he did. Before Pogba came on, we didn't really create much. I think that's the importance of having two creative players in your midfield, whilst one focuses on the dirty jobs, so to speak.

Will McT and Pogba go on to be our first choice midfield, who knows? Only time will tell, but we'd need to give it time before coming up with an accurate assessment. Add Fred to that, too.
Time will tell really.
 

andersj

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They sure were but it still doesn't mean such a style requires someone to be a expansive from the role in questions. There's many examples to counter that notion.
I never said that it does. You are missing the point. Samassekou, a quite limited midfielder, where playing DM under Rose and where less limited in his passing in Zakaria.

You said that I should compare Zakaria to Fabinho, so here goes.

While their completion rate is quite similar with less than a percentage point between them (Fabinho at 87,5 % and Zakaria at 86,7%), there is other areas where the difference is more obvious. On average, Fabinhos passes travel 1224 yards per 90 min. Zakarias passes travel 685 yards. Fabinho is also alot more progressive in his passing. The progressive distance of his passes is 231,7 yards, while Zakarias progressive distance is 175 yards. Furthermore, Fabinho makes 6,02 passes in the final third per 90 min and 1,10 in to the penalty area (including crosses). Zakaria is at 2,87 passes in the final third and 0,56 into the penalty area.

In other words, not only does Fabinho has a slightly better accuracy in his passing. His accuracy is better while playing more advanced and with significantly higher risk. It is also worth noting that a significant bigger part of Zakarias passes is in the defensive third of the pitch. An area of the pitch where you would expect an higher accuracy.

But since I've already read your discussion in here, I already know your answer. Fabinho played in a superior team. Much easier. Can be compared. Right?

Well, Fabinhos number from his days at Monaco is not much different.

At Monaco his accuracy was slightly lower at 85 %. But the total distance was still 1032 yards on average. And he was even more progressive in his passing, as the ball moved 278,7 yards forward on average per 90 minutes. He made 6,18 passes in the final third and 0,85 into the penalty area. In fact, he was even as progressive in carrying the ball forward as Zakaria. Zakaria carried the ball forward 151,1 yards per 90 minutes, while Fabinho at Monaco carried it 150,1 yards.

But of course, Moncao came second that year. A lot better side. Ligue 1 is not as good as Bundesliga either. Cant really compare, right?

Well, lets look at a player from a poor side. A few years younger. In a better league. More spesific, Declan Rice.

Declan Rice is at a completion rate of 85,9 %, quite similar to Zakaria (86,7 %). Their figures is not that different when it comes to number of yards the ball travel either. On average the passes of Rice travel 771 yards per minute (compared to Zakarias 685 yards). Rice is also a bit more progressive as he moves the ball 186,6 yards forward every 90 minute compared to 175 yards for Zakaria. While Rice makes 3,97 passes into the final third. One pass more than Zakaria. However, Zakaria actually betters him slightly when it comes to passes into the penalty area. Rice only makes 0,48 passes every 90 minutes into the box. Zakaria makes 0,56 passes every 90 minutes.

Declan Rice is often criticed in here for being a poor passer. However, his numbers is not poor compared Zakaria. Rice is two-three years younger than Zakaria, plays for a poor side in a thougher league.

This only prove how misleading these spreadsheets can be, right? At least when they dont support Adnans bias (who actually started by asking if I could support my opinion statistically)! :)

And yeah, you might be right that Zakaria is under instruction to play it safe. Mainly due to him being a quite restricted passer of the ball. I'm sure Rose would hate to have a player who was able to move the ball forward swiftly with his passing. The way Klopp and Pep have always prefered their DMs to be able to do. The way Ferguson prefered his midfielders to do. I'm sure Rose prefer his midfielder to make most of his passes in his own half of the pitch. Sure. All about instruction! :)
 

Adnan

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I never said that it does. You are missing the point. Samassekou, a quite limited midfielder, where playing DM under Rose and where less limited in his passing in Zakaria.

You said that I should compare Zakaria to Fabinho, so here goes.

While their completion rate is quite similar with less than a percentage point between them (Fabinho at 87,5 % and Zakaria at 86,7%), there is other areas where the difference is more obvious. On average, Fabinhos passes travel 1224 yards per 90 min. Zakarias passes travel 685 yards. Fabinho is also alot more progressive in his passing. The progressive distance of his passes is 231,7 yards, while Zakarias progressive distance is 175 yards. Furthermore, Fabinho makes 6,02 passes in the final third per 90 min and 1,10 in to the penalty area (including crosses). Zakaria is at 2,87 passes in the final third and 0,56 into the penalty area.

In other words, not only does Fabinho has a slightly better accuracy in his passing. His accuracy is better while playing more advanced and with significantly higher risk. It is also worth noting that a significant bigger part of Zakarias passes is in the defensive third of the pitch. An area of the pitch where you would expect an higher accuracy.

But since I've already read your discussion in here, I already know your answer. Fabinho played in a superior team. Much easier. Can be compared. Right?

Well, Fabinhos number from his days at Monaco is not much different.

At Monaco his accuracy was slightly lower at 85 %. But the total distance was still 1032 yards on average. And he was even more progressive in his passing, as the ball moved 278,7 yards forward on average per 90 minutes. He made 6,18 passes in the final third and 0,85 into the penalty area. In fact, he was even as progressive in carrying the ball forward as Zakaria. Zakaria carried the ball forward 151,1 yards per 90 minutes, while Fabinho at Monaco carried it 150,1 yards.

But of course, Moncao came second that year. A lot better side. Ligue 1 is not as good as Bundesliga either. Cant really compare, right?

Well, lets look at a player from a poor side. A few years younger. In a better league. More spesific, Declan Rice.

Declan Rice is at a completion rate of 85,9 %, quite similar to Zakaria (86,7 %). Their figures is not that different when it comes to number of yards the ball travel either. On average the passes of Rice travel 771 yards per minute (compared to Zakarias 685 yards). Rice is also a bit more progressive as he moves the ball 186,6 yards forward every 90 minute compared to 175 yards for Zakaria. While Rice makes 3,97 passes into the final third. One pass more than Zakaria. However, Zakaria actually betters him slightly when it comes to passes into the penalty area. Rice only makes 0,48 passes every 90 minutes into the box. Zakaria makes 0,56 passes every 90 minutes.

Declan Rice is often criticed in here for being a poor passer. However, his numbers is not poor compared Zakaria. Rice is two-three years younger than Zakaria, plays for a poor side in a thougher league.

This only prove how misleading these spreadsheets can be, right? At least when they dont support Adnans bias (who actually started by asking if I could support my opinion statistically)! :)

And yeah, you might be right that Zakaria is under instruction to play it safe. Mainly due to him being a quite restricted passer of the ball. I'm sure Rose would hate to have a player who was able to move the ball forward swiftly with his passing. The way Klopp and Pep have always prefered their DMs to be able to do. The way Ferguson prefered his midfielders to do. I'm sure Rose prefer his midfielder to make most of his passes in his own half of the pitch. Sure. All about instruction! :)
I stopped reading half way.

How does total distance make him a better passer in a holding midfield role and zakaria is also deployed as a sweeper, man marker and in a 3 man backline often. In the 2-2 draw against Leipzig earlier this year he was deployed in a man marking role on Timo Werner. If he had been deployed consistently in midfield his total distance average would be higher. I know you constantly use the spreadsheet method but there's context which you miss which i'm giving you.

Fabinho at Monaco played in a championship winning team so how is it any different to my argument about Liverpool. On both occasions Fabinho played for a team that was the very best or one of the two best in the entire competitions respectively. You should try watching games because constantly arguing over spreadsheets makes you look silly . I like Fabinho and wanted to sign him even when he played fullback but his passing isn't any better than Zakaria's.

It reminds me of your opinions on Ibrahima Konate when you clearly mentioned you'd hardly seen him play and argued how he was technically not good enough etc. Lay off the spreadsheets lad.
 
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andersj

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It reminds me of your opinions on Ibrahima Konate when you clearly mentioned you'd hardly seen him play and argued how he was technically not good enough etc. Lay off the spreadsheets lad.
Haha. You are so predictable. Guess stats, that you asked for, was not much fun after all! ;)

Zakaria was actually an even less expansive passer than I thought. But the stats supported my hypothesis. It just struck me that I must have seen a lot more from both Zakaria and Konate than you have. You are an obvious bs’er that falls in love with players based on a bias 1-perception. In other words, what you, based on a superficial impression think is correct.

And you dont handle it very well when people disagree. Even worse when people support their opinion with facts!
 

Adnan

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Haha. You are so predictable. Guess stats, that you asked for, was not much fun after all! ;)

Zakaria was actually an even less expansive passer than I thought. But the stats supported my hypothesis.
Constantly arguing over spreadsheets is what is predictable. And the way you made yourself look silly about Konate and his lack of technique was laughable when I reminded you about a post you made earlier in that particular discussion saying you've hardly seen him play which ended the argument dead. Arguing is fine but arguing blind.. :lol: :lol:
 

BenitoSTARR

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I never said that it does. You are missing the point. Samassekou, a quite limited midfielder, where playing DM under Rose and where less limited in his passing in Zakaria.

You said that I should compare Zakaria to Fabinho, so here goes.

While their completion rate is quite similar with less than a percentage point between them (Fabinho at 87,5 % and Zakaria at 86,7%), there is other areas where the difference is more obvious. On average, Fabinhos passes travel 1224 yards per 90 min. Zakarias passes travel 685 yards. Fabinho is also alot more progressive in his passing. The progressive distance of his passes is 231,7 yards, while Zakarias progressive distance is 175 yards. Furthermore, Fabinho makes 6,02 passes in the final third per 90 min and 1,10 in to the penalty area (including crosses). Zakaria is at 2,87 passes in the final third and 0,56 into the penalty area.

In other words, not only does Fabinho has a slightly better accuracy in his passing. His accuracy is better while playing more advanced and with significantly higher risk. It is also worth noting that a significant bigger part of Zakarias passes is in the defensive third of the pitch. An area of the pitch where you would expect an higher accuracy.

But since I've already read your discussion in here, I already know your answer. Fabinho played in a superior team. Much easier. Can be compared. Right?

Well, Fabinhos number from his days at Monaco is not much different.

At Monaco his accuracy was slightly lower at 85 %. But the total distance was still 1032 yards on average. And he was even more progressive in his passing, as the ball moved 278,7 yards forward on average per 90 minutes. He made 6,18 passes in the final third and 0,85 into the penalty area. In fact, he was even as progressive in carrying the ball forward as Zakaria. Zakaria carried the ball forward 151,1 yards per 90 minutes, while Fabinho at Monaco carried it 150,1 yards.

But of course, Moncao came second that year. A lot better side. Ligue 1 is not as good as Bundesliga either. Cant really compare, right?

Well, lets look at a player from a poor side. A few years younger. In a better league. More spesific, Declan Rice.

Declan Rice is at a completion rate of 85,9 %, quite similar to Zakaria (86,7 %). Their figures is not that different when it comes to number of yards the ball travel either. On average the passes of Rice travel 771 yards per minute (compared to Zakarias 685 yards). Rice is also a bit more progressive as he moves the ball 186,6 yards forward every 90 minute compared to 175 yards for Zakaria. While Rice makes 3,97 passes into the final third. One pass more than Zakaria. However, Zakaria actually betters him slightly when it comes to passes into the penalty area. Rice only makes 0,48 passes every 90 minutes into the box. Zakaria makes 0,56 passes every 90 minutes.

Declan Rice is often criticed in here for being a poor passer. However, his numbers is not poor compared Zakaria. Rice is two-three years younger than Zakaria, plays for a poor side in a thougher league.

This only prove how misleading these spreadsheets can be, right? At least when they dont support Adnans bias (who actually started by asking if I could support my opinion statistically)! :)

And yeah, you might be right that Zakaria is under instruction to play it safe. Mainly due to him being a quite restricted passer of the ball. I'm sure Rose would hate to have a player who was able to move the ball forward swiftly with his passing. The way Klopp and Pep have always prefered their DMs to be able to do. The way Ferguson prefered his midfielders to do. I'm sure Rose prefer his midfielder to make most of his passes in his own half of the pitch. Sure. All about instruction! :)
This is my favourite post in this thread and possibly the best researched counter argument I think I’ve seen on the forums.

@andersj

Absolutely solid gold top post I wish I could award you something for this! All I can say is you have my utmost respect admiration.

I will now absolutely not hear that Zakaria is a better passer this unequivocally ends that debate.

Haha. You are so predictable. Guess stats, that you asked for, was not much fun after all! ;)

Zakaria was actually an even less expansive passer than I thought. But the stats supported my hypothesis. It just struck me that I must have seen a lot more from both Zakaria and Konate than you have. You are an obvious bs’er that falls in love with players based on a bias 1-perception. In other words, what you, based on a superficial impression think is correct.

And you dont handle it very well when people disagree. Even worse when people support their opinion with facts!
You deserve a medal mate!

Not many posters make the effort to evidence their opinions but you have.
 

andersj

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Constantly arguing over spreadsheets is what is predictable. And the way you made yourself look silly about Konate and his lack of technique was laughable when I reminded you about a post you made earlier in that particular discussion saying you've hardly seen him play which ended the argument dead. Arguing is fine but arguing blind.. :lol: :lol:
You asked for stats. I gave you stats.

By all means, I could have continued into a subjective non-quantifiable discussion. But what is the point? We all know you have made up your mind. Plus, it is fun watching how but-hurt you get when the spreadsheet proves that you were wrong. Again.

Do you actually watch these players and still end up being this wrong? Or are you just guessing based on a couple of apperances? Maybe FM or FIFA?
 

Adnan

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You asked for stats. I gave you stats.

By all means, I could have continued into a subjective non-quantifiable discussion. But what is the point? We all know you have made up your mind. Plus, it is fun watching how but-hurt you get when the spreadsheet proves that you were wrong. Again.

Do you actually watch these players and still end up being this wrong? Or are you just guessing based on a couple of apperances? Maybe FM or FIFA?
If you think the spreadsheet proves me wrong then fantastic.. :lol:
 

andersj

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If you think the spreadsheet proves me wrong then fantastic.. :lol:
You have been supporting your opinion so well and making such a strong case I really dont know. Spreadsheet must be wrong! ;)

He probably just plays it safe due to instruction. Would probably look like Pirlo (or Fabinho for that matter) if someone just gave him a different instruction! But hey, who wants a midfielder to pass the ball forward or into the final third?!
 

BenitoSTARR

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If you think the spreadsheet proves me wrong then fantastic.. :lol:
It does.

You can’t suggest on any metric that he is better. Even to the “eye test” you would see fewer times where he does things others do better.

Also it’s not a spreadsheet.

You’re wrong. Now we can move on and discuss something other than your ego and Zakaria’s passing ability.

Also I apologise to anyone annoyed at the long debate we’ve had today, just think rubbish needs calling out. Thank you @andersj for your help today.
 

Adnan

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You have been supporting your opinion so well and making such a strong case I really dont know. Spreadsheet must be wrong! ;)

He probably just plays it safe due to instruction. Would probably look like Pirlo (or Fabinho for that matter) if someone just gave him a different instruction! But hey, who wants a midfielder to pass the ball forward or into the final third?!
At least I watch games and form an opinion unlike yourself who has been disengenious in making false claims as proven in the Upamecano thread. :lol:
 

andersj

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At least I watch games and form an opinion unlike yourself who has been disengenious in making false claims as proven in the Upamecano thread. :lol:
You watch games? Not so sure about that anymore.

False claims? Yeah right! Whatever makes you happy!

You where the one claiming to know Greenwood personally, right?
 

Adnan

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It does.

You can’t suggest on any metric that he is better. Even to the “eye test” you would see fewer times where he does things others do better.

Also it’s not a spreadsheet.

You’re wrong. Now we can move on and discuss something other than your ego and Zakaria’s passing ability.

Also I apologise to anyone annoyed at the long debate we’ve had today, just think rubbish needs calling out. Thank you @andersj for your help today.
So the different roles he's deployed don't matter? Playing a sweepr a CB, man marking don't have a bearing on the spreadsheet?

Zakaria's passing is more than good enough and there's context to things that some of you don't want to consider.
 
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andersj

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Playing a sweepr a CB,
Yes. CBs usually play even more progressive passes with even higher completion rate (due to being deeper in the pitch). So if he has played several games as CB and sweeper that should improve his «spreadsheet numbers». :)
 

Adnan

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You watch games? Not so sure about that anymore.

False claims? Yeah right! Whatever makes you happy!

You where the one claiming to know Greenwood personally, right?
"I've never seen Konate 'play but he's not good on the ball"

Who I know and don't know has very little to do with you..
 

andersj

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"I've never seen Konate 'play but he's not good on the ball"

Who I know and don't know has very little to do with you..
It just struck me that lying comes easy to you. I never said that I have never seen Konate play, so that is another lie.

So it put this Greenwood-info in to context.