As long as Partey and Tonali have not signed for a new club or a new contract, we should seriously try to go for them. If Partey is willing to sign for Arsenal, he should be willing to sign for us. Tonali is less likely, but there is a chance, maybe. And it would not take more than 5 days to know if we have a real chance at either of them if the people doing this at the club were able to do more than one thing per day.I think we should make a move for Koopmeiner and making it now would allow him to settle in whilst Matic is still performing at an adequate level.
We don't even need a DLP or someone that can ping balls like Carrick. Matic isn't an expert in that and yet we are doing very well with him. I'd say Partey is as good on the ball as Matic, more mobile, in his prime and availableMaybe its DLP we need, someone like Carrick/Pirlo the question is do they exist anymore?
I agree that Sancho is a must get but there is an argument for spreading the money around the entire team - if Dortmund demand a ridiculous fee north of 100m pounds we should have a fall back plan which allows us to sign a promising winger from the PL or other leagues in the continent for much less but who has the talent to contribute meaningfully to the team's goals total whilst we sort out the midfield issue in time. If you look at how Jose ran Matic into the ground, how long it has taken him to recover to highs of his first season here and how he is now a few years older but still so important to our fluidity one could see why its important to address that this summer to give us options to use him sparingly (which prolongs his career at the top) and ensure that the team doesn't suffer a huge drop off in quality if he isn't there.Yes. I agree. Maybe for this transfer window, focus on getting Sancho.
As long as Partey and Tonali have not signed for a new club or a new contract, we should seriously try to go for them. If Partey is willing to sign for Arsenal, he should be willing to sign for us. Tonali is less likely, but there is a chance, maybe. And it would not take more than 5 days to know if we have a real chance at either of them if the people doing this at the club were able to do more than one thing per day.
Koopmeiner, Mady Camara and Zakaria would be backup solutions.
I like Partey and he'd be immense but it seems like Arsenal have stolen the march on us but if we get CL football we can easily bully them.We don't even need a DLP or someone that can ping balls like Carrick. Matic isn't an expert in that and yet we are doing very well with him. I'd say Partey is as good on the ball as Matic, more mobile, in his prime and available
I like Partey too.I like Partey and he'd be immense but it seems like Arsenal have stolen the march on us but if we get CL football we can easily bully them.
Agreed, when you break down the composition of this squad it's clear that the biggest issue is in the deepest midfield role, and people seem to forget how Matic has ran out of steam every season since his last one at Chelsea, and all of the poor runsof form he's hads for us, solely focusing on a few good games since the turn of the year, to me that's crazy as we are leaving ourselves without a safety net if he's injured or falls off as he tends to do, it's like constantly patching up a car instead of getting it fixed properly.Exactly we need that DM that gives Pogba and Bruno the freedom and assurance to attack and also knows how to progress the ball from defense through the lines. Matic does this but if he's out we have no one else that can do this. Mctominay is always brought up but his positioning awareness is poor to let Pogba and Bruno do their thing and his passes are inconsistent to be able get the ball through the lines.
As for Pogba being out injured, we did fine when Bruno came in and people praised the trio of Bruno Fred and Matic as our best. We didnt struggle to create at all. Some even went as far as to say Pogba has to earn his place when he returns
I think we should get Sancho and a DM. The DM doesn't even have to be able to ping balls like Carrick. I think if we get Sancho and a DM that can progress the ball from defense, playing those forward passes through the lines while also capable of protecting the back line, this is enough to break down defenses.
Get Sancho and a DM and even when one of our midfielders is out we still have solid covers to do the job. Bruno is out play Sancho there and Greenwood takes Sancho's position on the right. Pogba is out play Fred there, we've already seen Bruno Fred Matic midfield does not struggle to create. Matic is out then play the new DM there (Zakaria maybe). No Pereira no Lingard no Mata
Our buying seems to be more long term, like with Igalho we've brought a striker in on loan while we see how Martial progresses and how Mason develops centrally potentially. So I think it's more likely we'd go for either a player that sees Matic take up the back-up spot (my preference) or someone who can understudy him next season.The is important to note and Mata can be trusted to fill in the No.10 role if needed for a few games but we lose control and dictate matches if we lose Matic and/or Pogba. Common sense would say we need someone to rotate with Matic next season because we can't expect 40 plus games from him whilst the drop off in quality is huge if we lose any one of our starting midfield three, ironically Pogba is the easiest to replace as both Fred and McTominay can play a different role as the energetic harrier. Funds permitting we should be picking up two midfielders to come in as understudy to Matic and Bruno to avoid the possibility of starting with a Fred - McT - Lingard midfield but as you say, if we get Sancho he could play the No.10 role as a deep forward when need. Our scouts should be able to scout a suitable DM on the cheap preferably one with the potential to grow into Matic's role but someone capable of a squad role even after Matic is done would suffice for next season's purposes.
Yep, we are overlooking something so straightforward its so frustrating. Its a good thing that McTominay and Fred sort of grew and came up with decent seasons but this shouldn't be overlooked anymore because its critical to how we play and have wanted to play since Carrick.Agreed, when you break down the composition of this squad it's clear that the biggest issue is in the deepest midfield role, and people seem to forget how Matic has ran out of steam every season since his last one at Chelsea, and all of the poor runsof form he's hads for us, solely focusing on a few good games since the turn of the year, to me that's crazy as we are leaving ourselves without a safety net if he's injured or falls off as he tends to do, it's like constantly patching up a car instead of getting it fixed properly.
If we land Sancho then you look at the wide and attacking midfield options the options are decently deep, we don't need a Grealish or Van de Beek as much as we need a player that can compete with/rotate/cover Matic, every other position we have at least one option that of decent quality that we can reshuffle the pack and still have it functioning well, except for the deeper midfield position. I get buying a Grealish or Van de Beek as a 3rd signing this summer with Gomes off and Lingard, Pereira and Mata not offering enough, but it shouldn't be the priority over another proper holder.
Our buying seems to be more long term, like with Igalho we've brought a striker in on loan while we see how Martial progresses and how Mason develops centrally potentially. So I think it's more likely we'd go for either a player that sees Matic take up the back-up spot (my preference) or someone who can understudy him next season.
I was with you until you named the players. Koopmeiners could be an option but I just think you have to overlay the data you use from the Dutch league with some sort of judgement. It's very clearly inferior so you're not comparing like for like in the table you've prepared above. I really don't want Declan Rice near the club. I just think we need a far more expansive passer than him in that role. It's funny but what you've described above is Michael Carrick!People aren’t going to like it but you have to look at style over name.
Look at players who aren’t diving into challenges but slow opposition play. Look for the ability to play line breaking passes from time to time and look for composure with quick decisive passes when under pressure.
People get into their heads a DM is the defender who breaks up play but that kind of DM is high risk high reward. We want low risk, the reason being we are going to be playing the vast majority of games as favourites. We already have a good system for counter attacking which is why our record against big sides is so good. We need a holder for all the other games.
In my previous postI discussed some of the better known names.
Feel free anyone to dive in and slate me but after a lot of consideration I’ll list that fit the profile this is just so people get an idea:
I’m well aware they aren’t glamorous names but they fit what we want. They aren’t too aggressive, they aren’t risky defenders. They contain and pass. Both are composed and both can a good long ball or fast pass back under pressure.
- Koopmeiners
- Rice
Ndidi is currently not the style of player I would go for and I used to think he’d be a good fit but now I’m entirely convinced the above two are style wise a better fit.
Happy to expand on why.
Koopmeiners isn’t based solely on data I’ve watched him a lot and honestly I think he does the role superbly.I was with you until you named the players. Koopmeiners could be an option but I just think you have to overlay the data you use from the Dutch league with some sort of judgement. It's very clearly inferior so you're not comparing like for like in the table you've prepared above. I really don't want Declan Rice near the club. I just think we need a far more expansive passer than him in that role. It's funny but what you've described above is Michael Carrick!
The problem or risk with Koopmeiners is that he plays in a league where there is a huge difference between the best teams(Alkmaar and the other three) and the rest of the league. His abilities suit the role well, but how good is he actually? Does he look good because he plays against teams equivalent to somewhere between Championship and League 1 or is he actually good?Koopmeiners isn’t based solely on data I’ve watched him a lot and honestly I think he does the role superbly.
What’s your issue with Rice?
He’s not my first choice but he’s an option which is what I was asked for. Some option are less ideal than othersz
Yeah, it's like people have forgotten how important Scholes, Carrick and even Giggs were in midfield over arguably our best period of success, quality on the ball in midfield was paramount. I like the progression of Fred and McTominay but to me they are both box to box CM's, they aren't the best passers or the best defensively, so not only do you take an element out of the team playing them deeper, you also take away what they do best, it's square pegs in round holes for the sake of buying another AM.Yep, we are overlooking something so straightforward its so frustrating. Its a good thing that McTominay and Fred sort of grew and came up with decent seasons but this shouldn't be overlooked anymore because its critical to how we play and have wanted to play since Carrick.
But Fernandinho is very very good on the ball in addition to being great defensively, that's the type of player we should look for so that no aspect is compromised.I still believe the DM role needs to be more defensive than offensive. Similar to Fernandinho for City. It's probably the best team to use as a comparison with Silva and De Bruyne ahead as two predominantly attacking midfielders. It's such a difficult job that Rodri
I don't think it's wise to compare the teams we've had in the past, as we've never had this kind of situation previously.
Partey seems to be ideal, but he plays in a system that sits substantially deeper, so there's still doubts. Tonali may not be ready to do it for a big side.
Yes, but Fernandinho was a lucky break for City. He was a B2B, converted into a DM by Pep. Its debatable whether our coaching staff can do that. But my point is that we need to look at players that possess traits, and can mould the rest of the traits needed into the role we desire. We're not gonna find a player that does it all already, like we did with Matic, who's not already at a top club.But Fernandinho is very very good on the ball in addition to being great defensively, that's the type of player we should look for so that no aspect is compromised.
So you either:Yes, but Fernandinho was a lucky break for City. He was a B2B, converted into a DM by Pep. Its debatable whether our coaching staff can do that. But my point is that we need to look at players that possess traits, and can mould the rest of the traits needed into the role we desire. We're not gonna find a player that does it all already, like we did with Matic, who's not already at a top club.
I agree that Rice, Ndidi and Zakaria aren't right for the role we need, but I'm not sure who is.
I just watched a video of him and the exact same thing struck me as when I first watched Matic's youtube compilation when he was playing for Benfica. He's ridiculously left foot dominant. Both of them barely ever even touch the ball with their right feet. Matic has tied himself in knots at times trying to avoid using his right foot.Unfortunately not. There was an article in MEN just praising him as being a good option but a lot of coaches and those knowledgeable of Dutch League say he’s the best defensive player in Dutch football.
Honestly if you get the chance to watch him play at any point or can find some of AZ’s games he’s an excellent option.
I’d love him at United as he ticks every box, mentality, composure, age, passing, goals, defensively aware, tactically sound and wouldn’t cost a lot!
No brainer for me. Low risk,
Pace is important out wide. In the middle of park in the PL a well organised back 4 with even the slowest DM can stop a counter long enough to get into shape.
That's what i was thinking. Matic can really thread a pass and is very calm on the ball. Wonder if Neves provides all of that.Neves.
I'm not having a go. I'm just saying that it's very difficult to compare an Eridivisie player with a Premier League or La Liga player as you did in the table.Koopmeiners isn’t based solely on data I’ve watched him a lot and honestly I think he does the role superbly.
What’s your issue with Rice?
He’s not my first choice but he’s an option which is what I was asked for. Some option are less ideal than othersz
He favours his left foot but rest assured he can still do all the basics with his right. It’s no different to having a right footed dominant player. If anything it’s an advantage as we don’t have many left footed players capable of playing the Pogba esque pass etc.I just watched a video of him and the exact same thing struck me as when I first watched Matic's youtube compilation when he was playing for Benfica. He's ridiculously left foot dominant. Both of them barely ever even touch the ball with their right feet. Matic has tied himself in knots at times trying to avoid using his right foot.
I didn’t think you were.I'm not having a go. I'm just saying that it's very difficult to compare an Eridivisie player with a Premier League or La Liga player as you did in the table.
Having just watched some clips of him, he does look very promising. Seems to be able to progress the ball forward capably and could even chip in on free kicks. Cheeky double swoop for him and Calvin Stengs??
I think Rice should focus on centre back. I just don't think he has the range of passing to be elite in the position United want. Think it's easier to coach a passer to defend than to coach a destroyer to create. I'm very hopeful for James Garner if he can pack on some muscle and develop his confidence/aggression at senior level.
Neves can do the passing part of the role but he's not all that mobile and defensively has looked a bit uncertain in the PL.That's what i was thinking. Matic can really thread a pass and is very calm on the ball. Wonder if Neves provides all of that.
He doesn’t play the same role relies more on Dendoncker (or however you spell it)Neves can do the passing part of the role but he's not all that mobile and defensively has looked a bit uncertain in the PL.
That's the problem mate. He has the ability on the ball but doesn't have the mobility off the ball which would be the issue. Nuno also plays a very conservative system that hides his off the ball flaws which would get exposed in a team that wants to play a more adventurous approach.Neves can do the passing part of the role but he's not all that mobile and defensively has looked a bit uncertain in the PL.
Camavinga has put in some worldie performances but would be a monumental risk at this point.That's the problem mate. He has the ability on the ball but doesn't have the mobility off the ball which would be the issue. Nuno also plays a very conservative system that hides his off the ball flaws which would get exposed in a team that wants to play a more adventurous approach.
Pogba will provide the control from the deeper role, we just need a Roy Keane/Arturo Vidal type to help maintain defensive balance in transition and help dominate zones defensively. That would allow Fernandes and Pogba the freedom to create in their respective roles. Camavinga would be the best all round player we could sign potentially due to his all round ability but that may not be possible due to the level of interest and he's also still very young too and it would be a risk due to how young he is still.
Agree completely and that’s why I don’t think we need a deep lying playmaker and need an out and out defensive midfielder with lots of stamina and a good positional sense, Pogba can play from deep and move further forward when needed like last night whilst Fernandes would play as the furthest forward but both would know they’re covered further back by someone who simply does the dirty work in front of the defence.Neves can do the passing part of the role but he's not all that mobile and defensively has looked a bit uncertain in the PL.
I'm talking about many games. But one game in particular is the one against Huddersfield where I was in attendance and he was pressed by the Town players and was appalling in breaking the press. I've also shared the thoughts of the Wolves faithful and they prefer him to see him play as #8 because defensively he's not mobile enough. Moutinho is their midfielder that controls the game. Nuno also plays a back 3 and plays a reactive style which benefits Neves. Neves suits a possession orientated style IMO.Camavinga has put in some worldie performances but would be a monumental risk at this point.
Certainly wouldn’t be the best all round player.
Also Neves problem is not mobility. He gets around the pitch more than most CMs in the PL his issue is he wouldn’t be used to the positional requirements. I do wonder what matches you are watching because this mobility I don’t think we operate on any kind of same definition. Do you mean speed of movement or just being comfortable getting around?
I agree Moutinho is the controller.I'm talking about many games. But one game in particular is the one against Huddersfield where I was in attendance and he was pressed by the Town players and was appalling in breaking the press. I've also shared the thoughts of the Wolves faithful and they prefer him to see him play as #8 because defensively he's not mobile enough. Moutinho is their midfielder that controls the game. Nuno also plays a back 3 and plays a reactive style which benefits Neves. Neves suits a possession orientated style IMO.
Camavinga would potentially be the best all round player because he's mobile and has playmaking ability. I understand he's still very young at 17 but for the longterm he looks the best bet. His performance against top European opposition (PSG) at 16 was testament to how big of a talent he is already.
Mobile is someone who can move quickly with or without the ball imo.I agree Moutinho is the controller.
Can you explain what you believe mobile is though?
I’m aware of his PSG performance but I think we should be very wary of a world class performance. Jack Wilshere once tore Barcelona to shreds but look where he ended up. I think you’re overrating him quite a bit as the best all rounder is Partey who has proven himself time and time again.
It’s frustrating on the forum when the 17 year olds get more respect than the experienced players.
Ah ok so it’s a combination of speed and agility in your mind not just being able to get around the pitch freely. Fair enough.Mobile is someone who can move quickly with or without the ball imo.
It's true that Camavinga may not reach the heights he's expected to. But his allround ability playing against some of the best players in the world and showing maturity beyond his years at 16 is incredible for someone so young. To be that disciplined playing against the likes of Verrati etc is incredible and the hype is justified. And then he's very quick and mobile too.
It's not one top performance. It's top performances over the course of a season in one of the top 5 leagues in Europe what make Camavinga the most sought after teen in European football.Ah ok so it’s a combination of speed and agility in your mind not just being able to get around the pitch freely. Fair enough.
I think he’s got a very long way before you can make claims of him being the best all round option he hasn’t shown it in enough games for a long enough period. He’s benefiting massively at the moment from a more mature physique than most 16 year olds so we need to see how he grows into it if he maintains or improves his technical ability as his body changes too.
He’s absolutely one to watch but I think he’s being over hyped for being young and putting in one top performance against PSG when older players do better week in week out.
Partey for me is unquestionably the better player all round.
Let’s be truthful here the PSG game is the only reason he is well known. Of course hes a talent but let’s not overate him by saying he’s the best all rounder.It's not one top performance. It's top performances over the course of a season in one of the top 5 leagues in Europe what make Camavinga the most sought after teen in European football.
Best all round in the longterm potentially - is what I said.Let’s be truthful here the PSG game is the only reason he is well known. Of course hes a talent but let’s not overate him by saying he’s the best all rounder.
He’s not, Partey is.
So you did. I still disagree there’s far too many ifs and buts.Best all round in the longterm potentially - is what I said.
It's not just PSG either there's other very good teams in that league too.
Kinda like the Mascherano/Alonso partnership? I know Alonso was also good defensively but his game was more on the ball where as Mascherano destroyed everything around him.He doesn’t play the same role relies more on Dendoncker (or however you spell it)
Agree completely and that’s why I don’t think we need a deep lying playmaker and need an out and out defensive midfielder with lots of stamina and a good positional sense, Pogba can play from deep and move further forward when needed like last night whilst Fernandes would play as the furthest forward but both would know they’re covered further back by someone who simply does the dirty work in front of the defence.
I've noticed Nuno plays the 3-5-2 with a counter attacking system, which offers a big safety net encasing Neves at the base with a DM next to him and 3 CB's behind him.That's the problem mate. He has the ability on the ball but doesn't have the mobility off the ball which would be the issue. Nuno also plays a very conservative system that hides his off the ball flaws which would get exposed in a team that wants to play a more adventurous approach.
Pogba will provide the control from the deeper role, we just need a Roy Keane/Arturo Vidal type to help maintain defensive balance in transition and help dominate zones defensively. That would allow Fernandes and Pogba the freedom to create in their respective roles. Camavinga would be the best all round player we could sign potentially due to his all round ability but that may not be possible due to the level of interest and he's also still very young too and it would be a risk due to how young he is still.
. The biggest clubs in the world are after him after his displays over the course of the season and the PSG game was what started it all which was the 2nd game of the season. He then maintained that consistency which is incredible for a young player. It's why Real Madrid want him and a host of other big clubs.So you did. I still disagree there’s far too many ifs and buts.
I know that but equally you know he wouldn’t have anywhere near the same level of exposure if this was a great performance against Marseille.
All I’m saying is let’s not overate what is a very young and inexperienced player in a position that traditionally rarely sees world class performances until 24+
I don't think Fred is good enough as a work horse. McTominay could be potentially but it's still a big if he can learn the role for the standard we require which is competing against the European big guns and City, Liverpool domestically.Kinda like the Mascherano/Alonso partnership? I know Alonso was also good defensively but his game was more on the ball where as Mascherano destroyed everything around him.
I've noticed Nuno plays the 3-5-2 with a counter attacking system, which offers a big safety net encasing Neves at the base with a DM next to him and 3 CB's behind him.
The thing I keep thinking is that we have Fred and McTominay to bring the work horsery, the CM we bring in I feel needs to be good on the ball to not only replace Matic but also when Pogba is out he can control the game and let Fred or McTominay do the box to box role with Bruno as AM. If we get Camavinga I'd be happy but I think we'll have to have patience and accept Matic will still be the starter when next season begins.
