Potential Matic Replacements

[amolbhatia50k]

What about Denis Zakaria of BM? Supposed to have a great combination of strength and skill. We've not really been linked for a long time though. Seems to suit a double pivot too

 

[Mark Pawelek]

I calculated a defensive score for some midfielders based on stats.
Positive score for: tackles, aerials won, interceptions, offside catch, clearances, blocks
Negative score for: fouls, yellows, reds, dispossession, unsure touch.
Garner and Gravenberch played in weaker leagues. I made no allowance for that.

​	Defensive score​	Contract till:​	Club​
Yves Bissouma​	10​	Jun 23​	Brighton​
Declan Rice​	10​	Jun 24​	West Ham​
James Garner​	9​	Jun 22​	MUFC​
Florian Grillitsch​	8​	Jun 22​	Hoffenheim​
Denis Zakaria​	8​	Jun 22​	Mönchengladbach​
Adrein Rabiot​	7​	Jun 23​	Juventus​
Scott McTominay​	7​	Jun 25​	MUFC​
Pape Sarr​	6​	Jun 25​	Metz​
André-Frank Zambo Anguissa​	6​	Jun 23​	Fulham​
Nemanja Matic​	5​	Jun 23​	MUFC​
Fred​	5​	Jun 23​	MUFC​
Mauro Arambarri​	5​	Jun 23​	Getafe​
Uros Racic​	4​	Jun 22​	Valencia​
Ryan Gravenberch​	4​	Jun 23​	Ajax​
Eduardo Camavinga​	4​	Jun 22​	Rennes​
Sander Berge​	3​	Jun 24​	Sheffield Utd​
Ridle Baku​	3​	Jun 25​	Wolfsburg​

 

[justsomebloke]

Isn't Tchouameni really a defender playing as CDM? I wonder what TFM and/or Axel Tuanzebe would look like with a year a CDM stats behind them?

Did you get your stats from fbref.com? I have a go myself with some more realistic targets.

fbref, yeah. Please do add.

 

[Lux Thunder]

Football Italia say "Inter put PSG target Brozovic on the market". Brozovic's contract expires in 2022. Looks like Inter won't meet his wage demands for a new contract. Value in the market option? £20m

Apart from Rice, Camavinga, and Bellingham, I'm not sure there are any CDMs United are linked to!, and I'm not sure Camavinga is a CDM.

Yes, £20m could possibly do a job. I think he represents good value in the market, was a little bit surprised with the stats that @justsomebloke provided and how progressive he actually is. Have a decent shot also, which can help against teams that set up deep and except to defend the box from crosses. Can improve our double pivot without fear that we'll miss McFred work rate ( not quite in tackles but more in distance covered ) and he can do a decent job as a no.6 if it's required to. Can be a very good partner for Fred as he is much more comfortable dictating tempo.

For the second part, I think it has to do with Ole sticking with double pivot for next season and all those mentioned can potentially play in our 4-2-3-1 setup. I get the idea of having pure DM to try with both Pogba and Bruno in front of him, but I doubt we will operate in the market with the intention to " free" Pogba as he enters his last year of the contract.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

What about Jaoa Palhina from sporting? His stats are really impressive

 

[Mark Pawelek]

What about Jaoa Palhina from sporting? His stats are really impressive

In my version of the stats, out of 26 players, including all United central midfielders (but no AMs), this eleven scored well in combined attack and defence (score of 33 to 28). But I feel: Gravenberch, Kessie, and Pogba weren't strong enough in defence to play as CDM.

PLAYER, AGE
Aurelien Tchouameni, 21
João Palhinha, 24
Ruben Neves, 25
Ryan Gravenberch, 19
James Garner, 20
Boubacar Kamara, 21
Franck Kessie, 24
Paul Pogba, 28
Manuel Locatelli, 23
Declan Rice, 22
Yves Bissouma, 24

Of the 8 others, I'd take any 2 at United (except Tchouameni, who looks like a CD playing CDM!).

We already have Garner. Need 1 more. Palhinha would be value at less than £20m. Like Telles last season who we got for £15m: 1 year left on his contract and playing in a slightly weaker league. But risky for 21/22 season as Garner too was also playing in a weaker league.

This summer the smart move is to get someone already playing in the EPL: Rice, Neves, or Bissouma. Keep Garner as his understudy.

Almost forgot: United need Garner to sign a new contract now. His contract expires next summer.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Fred is great and happy to keep him so long as he is fined for a week's wages EVERYTIME he passes the ball to the opposition.

Just play it square or to someone five yards away mate.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

In my version of the stats, out of 26 players, including all United central midfielders (but no AMs), this eleven scored well in combined attack and defence (score of 33 to 28). But I feel: Gravenberch, Kessie, and Pogba weren't strong enough in defence to play as CDM.

PLAYER, AGE
Aurelien Tchouameni, 21
João Palhinha, 24
Ruben Neves, 25
Ryan Gravenberch, 19
James Garner, 20
Boubacar Kamara, 21
Franck Kessie, 24
Paul Pogba, 28
Manuel Locatelli, 23
Declan Rice, 22
Yves Bissouma, 24

Of the 8 others, I'd take any 2 at United (except Tchouameni, who looks like a CD playing CDM!).

We already have Garner. Need 1 more. Palhinha would be value at less than £20m. Like Telles last season who we got for £15m: 1 year left on his contract and playing in a slightly weaker league. But risky for 21/22 season as Garner too was also playing in a weaker league.

This summer the smart move is to get someone already playing in the EPL: Rice, Neves, or Bissouma. Keep Garner as his understudy.

Almost forgot: United need Garner to sign a new contract now. His contract expires next summer.

I'd add Zakaria as an option too. Better on the ball than a lot of those

 

[bosnian_red]

Did a radar chart comparison with some stats (per 90 minutes in percentiles vs midfielders from the big 5 leagues over the past year) between Ruben Neves, Bissouma, Fred, Rice and McTominay. Top right quadrant would kind of show their passing from deep, bottom right their creativity, bottom left their security and top left their defensive ability.


Kinda outlines Fred's issues of giving the ball away carelessly, and if he cut that out he'd be quite good. McTominay doesn't really do anything amazingly, Ruben Neves by far the best mix of on the ball security and passing from deep whole offering some defensive solidity. Rice the best mix of security and defensive solidity, but not much on the ball. Bissouma similar but has his sloppiness.

As a comparison, here's Matic from 2017-18.

 

[thomas porter]

If the price for Declan Rice is exorbitant then I would love to see us go for Kalvin Phillips. Great passing range which is perfect for our counterattacking system and defensively aware with a good reading of the game which leads to a lot of interceptions. Hes young with a lot of upside as well.

 

[bosnian_red]

I love Sancho and he's exactly what we need in attack I feel, but arguably the most important position on the pitch these days is the holding mid. Look at City today. No holding mid and they got destroyed in the first half, no balance to them at all and couldn't win the ball back off Chelsea effectively either. They only started applying pressure when Fernandinho came on too.

We aren't going to compete until we sort that position out either IMO. Rice just has to be the guy this summer. If I could pick just 2 players it'd be him and Sancho and ignore CB for the year.

 

[MadDogg]

1. LET'S GET LOCATELLI!
Not only does he look like the best player in this selection, he also has as some of his best traits the same things that are Fred's worst traits. Excellent offensively, elite in ball progression and perfectly okay defensively. Put him beside Fred or McTominay, and things will look good.

Good posts mate, and this is mostly what I took from your stats as well. In theory at least Locatelli looks a near perfect player to play next to Fred. The big question is whether he's good enough defensively to cover when the opposition get past Fred's high pressing. It's not necessarily about winning the ball back himself, some of the best in that position do it with great positioning to cut off the opposition options and forcing them to slow the entire attack down so that our defence can reset. But that's the kind of thing which doesn't really show up in stats.

I've only ever watched Locatelli play once, and that was such a terrible quality match (against Parma) that I turned it off at half time. He did start that match well and scored a penalty, but I did notice a couple of times that he gave the ball away very sloppily towards the end of that half. Parma was such a poor team that he didn't really have much to do defensively.

I highly doubt we sign two new midfielders, and unlike some I personally don't think there's anybody we can sign that would allow us to be consistent with Pogba in that role. As such we need to make the best possible combination with one new midfielder combined with either Fred or McTominay. Fred is generally better, but if McTominay showed his EL final form more often he could be the better option (at the moment he's only showing that for two or three games a season). I'm looking at a lot of the options that people put forward and while they may be an improvement over one of those players individually, they are similar 'type' of players which would largely mean more of the same (albeit at a slightly higher level). If we want to start controlling games and setting the tempo better, while also improving our defensive solidarity, we need a different type of player. Locatelli might be that type.

 

[reddevilz007]

I would go with the combination of Locatelli/ or Neves with one of Bissouma/ or Saul, while selling Pogba. We do have Van de Beek, but Ole doesnt seem to rate him at all.

Pogba most consistent run of good forms this season was when he was deployed as a LM/LW. Unfortunately, it takes a way a spot for a more natural forward. When he was deployed centrally, he was inconsistent and his influence wasnt up to par on both sides of the pitch.

 

[SATA]

If we can't get Ndidi, the Brighton lad looks pretty good and attainable for a fair price

 

[Adnan]

If we can't get Ndidi, the Brighton lad looks pretty good and attainable for a fair price

There's also the lad from Monaco.

 

[Kingslayer18]

There's also the lad from Monaco.

Big fan of Tchouameni, able to play as a single pivot or in a pair. He has even better defensive stats than Camavinga and is only going to get better with age. He would be a smart acquisition, already seeing Chelsea are linked with him. If we're smart, we should be in for either him or Camavinga, would be cheaper than Rice and better in the long term than any of Neves, Rice or Bissouma.

 

[justsomebloke]

Good posts mate, and this is mostly what I took from your stats as well. In theory at least Locatelli looks a near perfect player to play next to Fred. The big question is whether he's good enough defensively to cover when the opposition get past Fred's high pressing. It's not necessarily about winning the ball back himself, some of the best in that position do it with great positioning to cut off the opposition options and forcing them to slow the entire attack down so that our defence can reset. But that's the kind of thing which doesn't really show up in stats.

I've only ever watched Locatelli play once, and that was such a terrible quality match (against Parma) that I turned it off at half time. He did start that match well and scored a penalty, but I did notice a couple of times that he gave the ball away very sloppily towards the end of that half. Parma was such a poor team that he didn't really have much to do defensively.

I highly doubt we sign two new midfielders, and unlike some I personally don't think there's anybody we can sign that would allow us to be consistent with Pogba in that role. As such we need to make the best possible combination with one new midfielder combined with either Fred or McTominay. Fred is generally better, but if McTominay showed his EL final form more often he could be the better option (at the moment he's only showing that for two or three games a season). I'm looking at a lot of the options that people put forward and while they may be an improvement over one of those players individually, they are similar 'type' of players which would largely mean more of the same (albeit at a slightly higher level). If we want to start controlling games and setting the tempo better, while also improving our defensive solidarity, we need a different type of player. Locatelli might be that type.

That is a very good point. So the question is if it'd make more sense to look for a slightly different balance between the qualities you need from a sitting midfielder, and strong contributions in progressing the ball and in the offensive third. Kind of like Fabinho does for Liverpool, or Jorginho for Chelsea, or Rodri and Fernandinho for City. Maybe it'd make sense to use those as a benchmark.

I suppose that'd point in the direction of Camavinga or Bentancur. Players like Rice, Bissouma, Tchouameni and Kamara just don't seem to offer much in the creative and transitional aspects of the game.

 

[justsomebloke]

I calculated a defensive score for some midfielders based on stats.
Positive score for: tackles, aerials won, interceptions, offside catch, clearances, blocks
Negative score for: fouls, yellows, reds, dispossession, unsure touch.
Garner and Gravenberch played in weaker leagues. I made no allowance for that.

​	Defensive score​	Contract till:​	Club​
Yves Bissouma​	10​	Jun 23​	Brighton​
Declan Rice​	10​	Jun 24​	West Ham​
James Garner​	9​	Jun 22​	MUFC​
Florian Grillitsch​	8​	Jun 22​	Hoffenheim​
Denis Zakaria​	8​	Jun 22​	Mönchengladbach​
Adrein Rabiot​	7​	Jun 23​	Juventus​
Scott McTominay​	7​	Jun 25​	MUFC​
Pape Sarr​	6​	Jun 25​	Metz​
André-Frank Zambo Anguissa​	6​	Jun 23​	Fulham​
Nemanja Matic​	5​	Jun 23​	MUFC​
Fred​	5​	Jun 23​	MUFC​
Mauro Arambarri​	5​	Jun 23​	Getafe​
Uros Racic​	4​	Jun 22​	Valencia​
Ryan Gravenberch​	4​	Jun 23​	Ajax​
Eduardo Camavinga​	4​	Jun 22​	Rennes​
Sander Berge​	3​	Jun 24​	Sheffield Utd​
Ridle Baku​	3​	Jun 25​	Wolfsburg​

Thanks, but are you sure those are the best stats to use for a midfielder? Overall it seems better suited to CBs, and I'd question if reds, yellows, fouls and offside catches have a place there (they are all relevant of course, but when using a limited number of stats for a scoring system it's really important not to use too many, and the right ones). Also if clearances and blocks are really key attributes for this position and something that sets different players apart from each other. Tackles, interceptions, dispossession, passing accuracy, recoveries and dribbled past are the ones that seem to make most sense to me, concerning the defensive aspect of this position.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Did a radar chart comparison with some stats (per 90 minutes in percentiles vs midfielders from the big 5 leagues over the past year) between Ruben Neves, Bissouma, Fred, Rice and McTominay. Top right quadrant would kind of show their passing from deep, bottom right their creativity, bottom left their security and top left their defensive ability.


Kinda outlines Fred's issues of giving the ball away carelessly, and if he cut that out he'd be quite good. McTominay doesn't really do anything amazingly, Ruben Neves by far the best mix of on the ball security and passing from deep whole offering some defensive solidity. Rice the best mix of security and defensive solidity, but not much on the ball. Bissouma similar but has his sloppiness.

As a comparison, here's Matic from 2017-18.

Great stuff this is. Very interesting, too!

 

[JohnnyLaw]

Prime opportunity tonight to catch a glimpse of some of the lads being talked about in this thread with France taking on Netherlands in the u21 euros.

Tchouameni, Camavinga, Kamara and Koopmeiners possibly involved as well as Koundé, Botman, Badiashile and many other interesting prospects.

 

[justsomebloke]

Just for fun and in the context of assuming we're looking for a partner for Fred who can both stand off defensively and contribute something to transitional play and the attack, I looked at how the various options stack up against a benchmark consisting of the average values of Fabinho (19/20-season, since he spent a lot of time out of position this season), Fernandinho, Rodri and Jorginho, across the 8 non-pressing categories I used. These are (left to right) pass completion %, Progressive distance of passes/90, progressive passes/90, shot-creating actions/90, Touches in the attacking 3rd/90, Tackles + Interceptions/90, Touches/90 and Progressive carries/90. Also, I added Niguez, with whom we now seem to be heavily linked.

Where it says "yes", it means the player met or exceeded the benchmark value.

Included the United players for comparison. Note McTominay doesn't meet the benchmark in ANY category. A few caveats:

- vd Beek of course playing mainly in the forward line, which affects the stats
- As have to a large extent Pogba this season, so ditto there. But also included his 19/20 stats, which are very different.

Observation: Nearly all of the players who match the benchmark in the defensively relevant categories (Cmp%, Ta+int) doesn't do so in the categories related to attacking impact and moving the ball forward - and vice versa. Camavinga and Bentancur (and Fred) seem the only real allrounders.

		Cmp%	PrgDist	Prg pass	SCA90	T/att3rd	Ta+Int	T	Prg car
Match/exceed:	BENCHMARK 4	89​	302​	5,5​	2,1​	15​	4,4​	86,9​	6,4​
6​	Rodrigo Bentancur	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	no
5​	Marcelo Brozovic	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	yes	no
5​	Manuel Locatelli	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	yes	no
5​	Paul Pogba 19-20	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	yes	no
4​	Fred	no	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	no
4​	Eduardo Camavinga	yes	no	no	no	yes	yes	no	yes
3​	Mikel Merino	no	no	yes	yes	yes	no	no	no
2​	Franck Kessie	yes	no	no	yes	no	no	no	no
2​	vd Beek	no	no	no	yes	yes	no	no	no
2​	Kalvin Phillips	no	no	no	yes	no	yes	no	no
2​	Ruben Neves	no	no	no	yes	no	yes	no	no
2​	Marcos Llorente	no	no	no	yes	yes	no	no	no
2​	Paul Pogba 20-21	no	no	no	yes	no	no	no	yes
1​	Declan Rice	no	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no
1​	Yves Bissouma	no	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no
1​	Boubakar Kamara	no	yes	no	no	no	no	no	no
1​	Aurelien Tchouameni	no	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no
1​	Saul Niguez	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no	no
0​	McTominay	no	no	no	no	no	no	no	no
0​	Mauro Arambarri	no	no	no	no	no	no	no	no

 

[Mark Pawelek]

Just for fun and in the context of assuming we're looking for a partner for Fred who can both stand off defensively and contribute something to transitional play and the attack, I looked at how the various options stack up against a benchmark consisting of the average values of Fabinho (19/20-season, since he spent a lot of time out of position this season), Fernandinho, Rodri and Jorginho, across the 8 non-pressing categories I used. These are (left to right) pass completion %, Progressive distance of passes/90, progressive passes/90, shot-creating actions/90, Touches in the attacking 3rd/90, Tackles + Interceptions/90, Touches/90 and Progressive carries/90. Also, I added Niguez, with whom we now seem to be heavily linked.

Where it says "yes", it means the player met or exceeded the benchmark value.

Included the United players for comparison. Note McTominay doesn't meet the benchmark in ANY category. A few caveats:

- vd Beek of course playing mainly in the forward line, which affects the stats
- As have to a large extent Pogba this season, so ditto there. But also included his 19/20 stats, which are very different.

Observation: Nearly all of the players who match the benchmark in the defensively relevant categories (Cmp%, Ta+int) doesn't do so in the categories related to attacking impact and moving the ball forward - and vice versa. Camavinga and Bentancur (and Fred) seem the only real allrounders.

		Cmp%	PrgDist	Prg pass	SCA90	T/att3rd	Ta+Int	T	Prg car
Match/exceed:	BENCHMARK 4	89​	302​	5,5​	2,1​	15​	4,4​	86,9​	6,4​
6​	Rodrigo Bentancur	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	no
5​	Marcelo Brozovic	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	yes	no
5​	Manuel Locatelli	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	yes	no
5​	Paul Pogba 19-20	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	yes	no
4​	Fred	no	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	no
4​	Eduardo Camavinga	yes	no	no	no	yes	yes	no	yes
3​	Mikel Merino	no	no	yes	yes	yes	no	no	no
2​	Franck Kessie	yes	no	no	yes	no	no	no	no
2​	vd Beek	no	no	no	yes	yes	no	no	no
2​	Kalvin Phillips	no	no	no	yes	no	yes	no	no
2​	Ruben Neves	no	no	no	yes	no	yes	no	no
2​	Marcos Llorente	no	no	no	yes	yes	no	no	no
2​	Paul Pogba 20-21	no	no	no	yes	no	no	no	yes
1​	Declan Rice	no	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no
1​	Yves Bissouma	no	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no
1​	Boubakar Kamara	no	yes	no	no	no	no	no	no
1​	Aurelien Tchouameni	no	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no
1​	Saul Niguez	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no	no
0​	McTominay	no	no	no	no	no	no	no	no
0​	Mauro Arambarri	no	no	no	no	no	no	no	no

I admit my stat contribution wasn't any good, but this is of no use to me either. Yes/No based on arbitrary benchmarks chosen by you!! You also left out Matic and Garner. If you use abbreviations in column headings, I think you should include to translation table or tell us of where the stats came from so we can check what the abbreviations mean.

Maybe we should have a stat discussion thread in the Football Forum?

 

[MadDogg]

I admit my stat contribution wasn't any good, but this is of no use to me either. Yes/No based on arbitrary benchmarks chosen by you!! You also left out Matic and Garner. If you use abbreviations in column headings, I think you should include to translation table or tell us of where the stats came from so we can check what the abbreviations mean.

He does mention what the abbreviations are in his first paragraph.

 

[sideshow_bob]

Just for fun and in the context of assuming we're looking for a partner for Fred who can both stand off defensively and contribute something to transitional play and the attack, I looked at how the various options stack up against a benchmark consisting of the average values of Fabinho (19/20-season, since he spent a lot of time out of position this season), Fernandinho, Rodri and Jorginho, across the 8 non-pressing categories I used. These are (left to right) pass completion %, Progressive distance of passes/90, progressive passes/90, shot-creating actions/90, Touches in the attacking 3rd/90, Tackles + Interceptions/90, Touches/90 and Progressive carries/90. Also, I added Niguez, with whom we now seem to be heavily linked.

Where it says "yes", it means the player met or exceeded the benchmark value.

Included the United players for comparison. Note McTominay doesn't meet the benchmark in ANY category. A few caveats:

- vd Beek of course playing mainly in the forward line, which affects the stats
- As have to a large extent Pogba this season, so ditto there. But also included his 19/20 stats, which are very different.

Observation: Nearly all of the players who match the benchmark in the defensively relevant categories (Cmp%, Ta+int) doesn't do so in the categories related to attacking impact and moving the ball forward - and vice versa. Camavinga and Bentancur (and Fred) seem the only real allrounders.

		Cmp%	PrgDist	Prg pass	SCA90	T/att3rd	Ta+Int	T	Prg car
Match/exceed:	BENCHMARK 4	89​	302​	5,5​	2,1​	15​	4,4​	86,9​	6,4​
6​	Rodrigo Bentancur	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	no
5​	Marcelo Brozovic	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	yes	no
5​	Manuel Locatelli	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	yes	no
5​	Paul Pogba 19-20	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	yes	no
4​	Fred	no	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	no	no
4​	Eduardo Camavinga	yes	no	no	no	yes	yes	no	yes
3​	Mikel Merino	no	no	yes	yes	yes	no	no	no
2​	Franck Kessie	yes	no	no	yes	no	no	no	no
2​	vd Beek	no	no	no	yes	yes	no	no	no
2​	Kalvin Phillips	no	no	no	yes	no	yes	no	no
2​	Ruben Neves	no	no	no	yes	no	yes	no	no
2​	Marcos Llorente	no	no	no	yes	yes	no	no	no
2​	Paul Pogba 20-21	no	no	no	yes	no	no	no	yes
1​	Declan Rice	no	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no
1​	Yves Bissouma	no	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no
1​	Boubakar Kamara	no	yes	no	no	no	no	no	no
1​	Aurelien Tchouameni	no	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no
1​	Saul Niguez	no	no	no	no	yes	no	no	no
0​	McTominay	no	no	no	no	no	no	no	no
0​	Mauro Arambarri	no	no	no	no	no	no	no	no

Great stuff as always.

I'm a big fan of brozo, & Bentancur, & Locatelli for me is a must buy.

However, am just a little sceptical that the top 3 blokes are all from the same league, which has not been to a fantastic standard this past season.

Would it be possible to lower the benchmark by say 5%?

Am curious to see if the EPL players would leapfrog some of the Serie A ones if given a handicap, since I think most people will agree the standard, pace & pressing intensity is at a different level.

 

[Adnan]

Big fan of Tchouameni, able to play as a single pivot or in a pair. He has even better defensive stats than Camavinga and is only going to get better with age. He would be a smart acquisition, already seeing Chelsea are linked with him. If we're smart, we should be in for either him or Camavinga, would be cheaper than Rice and better in the long term than any of Neves, Rice or Bissouma.

Agreed.

He's a player that is displaying a very high level of I.Q at such a young age. He also seems to have his next move planned before receiving the ball. He would be a fantastic signing IMO.

 

[Mark Pawelek]

He does mention what the abbreviations are in his first paragraph.

From the abbreviation names they look like DBRef stats. God knows how you get them! It's an oblique website. I suppose if I spent hours clicking on every button there I might finally figure out how to use it. My real complaint is I want to see the numbers; don't want to know whether a player passes some arbitrary checklist.

 

[justsomebloke]

I admit my stat contribution wasn't any good, but this is of no use to me either. Yes/No based on arbitrary benchmarks chosen by you!! You also left out Matic and Garner. If you use abbreviations in column headings, I think you should include to translation table or tell us of where the stats came from so we can check what the abbreviations mean.

Maybe we should have a stat discussion thread in the Football Forum?

The actual stats are in the earlier posts (except for Niguez). Clearly my choice of categories can be debated, and it's (consciously) a pretty narrow range, which should of course be borne in mind.

The benchmark is of course debatable too, but I don't think it's arbitrary. As different as they are, those four players all have primary responsibilities as sitting midfielders, who also make strong contributions to the transition game and in moving the ball forward, as well as to some extent in the attack. And they all do that well, and for top teams. Though there are of course also many differences, related to different systems and nuances in role and so forth. So I figured a benchmark based on their stats could actually be of some interest, as one among several ways of looking at this. If nothing else, it highlights what sort of combination of attributes they possess and how that's matches up against this particular group of possible transfer targets. It's not meant to be a final answer or anything, it is what it is.

 

[Foxbatt]

But knowing us we will feck it as usual. Giggs wanted Mbappe and was available for around 6 or 7 million then. We went and got martial for 35. Knowing us we will try to pay over the odds for someone and then get the wrong one.
Why is Gravenberch having such a high profile? How good is he?

 

[Adnan]

But knowing us we will feck it as usual. Giggs wanted Mbappe and was available for around 6 or 7 million then. We went and got martial for 35. Knowing us we will try to pay over the odds for someone and then get the wrong one.
Why is Gravenberch having such a high profile? How good is he?

Was Mbappe available for 6 or 7 million?

 

[Champ]

Agreed.

He's a player that is displaying a very high level of I.Q at such a young age. He also seems to have his next move planned before receiving the ball. He would be a fantastic signing IMO.

He's not ready for the step up yet I don't think.

We need ready made players in the middle, he'd be an acquisition for two seasons time, not for the here and now.

 

[Adnan]

He's not ready for the step up yet I don't think.

We need ready made players in the middle, he'd be an acquisition for two seasons time, not for the here and now.

I think he's ready both mentally and physically from what I've observed.

 

[Champ]

I think he's ready both mentally and physically from what I've observed.

He's ready physically for sure.

But he reminds me of AWB alot, there's a reason he has to make so many recovery tackles, and that's due to still learning positional play.

As I say, its one for the future, not quite for next season.

 

[Adnan]

He's ready physically for sure.

But he reminds me of AWB alot, there's a reason he has to make so many recovery tackles, and that's due to still learning positional play.

As I say, its one for the future, not quite for next season.

He's nothing like Wan Bissaka and his positioning and reading of the game has been described as being a strong point of his, both at Bordeaux and now at Monaco.

There's also a difference between different tactical plans plans and Tchouameni can at times be deployed as someone who will partake in a 3 man wide pressing trap high up the pitch after the the initial trigger. That doesn't mean he's out of position but rather that's him following his coaches orders to close the space high up the pitch in the quest for a quick turnover.

 

[Champ]

He's nothing like Wan Bissaka and his positioning and reading of the game has been described as being a strong point of his, both at Bordeaux and now at Monaco.

There's also a difference between different tactical plans plans and Tchouameni can at times be deployed as someone who will partake in a 3 man wide pressing trap high up the pitch after the the initial trigger. That doesn't mean he's out of position but rather that's him following his coaches orders to close the space high up the pitch in the quest for a quick turnover.

He tackles like AWB, and if his manager is allowing his defensive minded midfielders to be that high up and gifting space to the opposition then it's no wonder Monaco let in 40 plus goals!!

One for the future, but not what United need right now.

 

[Foxbatt]

Was Mbappe available for 6 or 7 million?

That's what I saw recently on Manchester Evening News and Sky Sports The were quoting him directly. Giggs wanted him at that time so would have been under LVG.

 

[Adnan]

He tackles like AWB, and if his manager is allowing his defensive minded midfielders to be that high up and gifting space to the opposition then it's no wonder Monaco let in 40 plus goals!!

One for the future, but not what United need right now.

If you think he tackles like Wan Bissaka, then that's a good thing because for me that's AWBs best attribute.

Monaco were in the race to win the league until the last day of the season along with PSG and Lille, and had a goal difference of +34, scoring 76 league goals in the process, playing a attack minded brand of football. I'd say it was a successful season for Monaco and Kovac's front foot tactics worked.

 

[Champ]

If you think he tackles like Wan Bissaka, then that's a good thing because for me that's AWBs best attribute.

Monaco were in the race to win the league until the last day of the season along with PSG and Lille, and had a goal difference of +34, scoring 76 league goals in the process, playing a attack minded brand of football. I'd say it was a successful season for Monaco and Kovac's front foot tactics worked.

I agree, his tackling looks very good, but as I say majority of his tackles seem to be from the wrong side of the attacker, which is a little bit of a worry for a defensive minded player, and I understand that tactics may play a part in that.

Considering we are talking about a Matic replacement, this guy isn't the one.
If we were talking a McT replacement then yes.
But he's definitely not quite there yet for me.

 

[croadyman]

That's what I saw recently on Manchester Evening News and Sky Sports The were quoting him directly. Giggs wanted him at that time so would have been under LVG.

Blimey that's ten times worse than him pulling the plug on Kroos as well

 

[Adnan]

I agree, his tackling looks very good, but as I say majority of his tackles seem to be from the wrong side of the attacker, which is a little bit of a worry for a defensive minded player, and I understand that tactics may play a part in that.

Considering we are talking about a Matic replacement, this guy isn't the one.
If we were talking a McT replacement then yes.
But he's definitely not quite there yet for me.

That's fair enough.

But even though the thread is titled 'Potential Matic replacements' I don't believe the club is looking for that type of player when it comes to profile. I think the Solskjaer's looking for someone that is more dynamic, similar to Fred and McTominay but with a higher bar.

 

[Champ]

That's fair enough.

But even though the thread is titled 'Potential Matic replacements' I don't believe the club is looking for that type of player when it comes to profile. I think the Solskjaer's looking for someone that is more dynamic, similar to Fred and McTominay but with a higher bar.

Maybe so, you could be right

although I do get the impression they are looking for a Carrick type of player, hence the reported interest in Rice, someone who can sit in the middle and be a metronome.

Whatever happens, I hope United have one eye on the next bunch of French talent coming through, as there will be some gems unearthed for sure!