Potential Matic Replacements

Adnan

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Blimey that's ten times worse than him pulling the plug on Kroos as well
I doubt that's true tbf. But if it is, then Bayern, Barca, Madrid etc and the rest have also had a shocker including the stepping stone clubs.
 

Adnan

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Maybe so, you could be right

although I do get the impression they are looking for a Carrick type of player, hence the reported interest in Rice, someone who can sit in the middle and be a metronome.

Whatever happens, I hope United have one eye on the next bunch of French talent coming through, as there will be some gems unearthed for sure!
There's is a young lad at Ajax who might develop into a similar type of player to Carrick.

Ryan Gravenberch

 

Champ

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There's is a young lad at Ajax who might develop into a similar type of player to Carrick.

Ryan Gravenberch

Yeah, I have a friend who lives in Ijburg, a stone's throw from the Ajax Stadium, often goes to the games, he's been saying alot about this kid.

In the senior national team as well if I'm correct in saying?
 

justsomebloke

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Maybe so, you could be right

although I do get the impression they are looking for a Carrick type of player, hence the reported interest in Rice, someone who can sit in the middle and be a metronome.

Whatever happens, I hope United have one eye on the next bunch of French talent coming through, as there will be some gems unearthed for sure!
Rice isn't much of a metronome though.
 

Champ

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Rice isn't much of a metronome though.
You not think?
I do, not on the same level as Carrick for example, but someone who can pick the ball up deep and distribute well. I think he has a good range of passing.
 

justsomebloke

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You not think?
I do, not on the same level as Carrick for example, but someone who can pick the ball up deep and distribute well. I think he has a good range of passing.
Is he? Statistically at least, he doesn't hit that many passes, or very progressive ones, or with a particularly high completion. Eye test says the same for me.
 

Adnan

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Yeah, I have a friend who lives in Ijburg, a stone's throw from the Ajax Stadium, often goes to the games, he's been saying alot about this kid.

In the senior national team as well if I'm correct in saying?
Yeah he's in the squad and he's still very young at just 19. But I think by next season he could be a genuine transfer target for many clubs. But he could also have a great Euros and force someones hand this season. But I'm expecting him to stay one more season at Ajax.
 

Champ

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Is he? Statistically at least, he doesn't hit that many passes, or very progressive ones, or with a particularly high completion. Eye test says the same for me.
Nah, he's very accurate with long passing, very economical with short passing. Stats will also prove that.
Definitely have to disagree with you on that.
 

rotherham_red

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That's what I saw recently on Manchester Evening News and Sky Sports The were quoting him directly. Giggs wanted him at that time so would have been under LVG.
I don't think that's true. City had a bid of 35m+ rejected in 2016, before he fully blew up at Monaco.
 

Foxbatt

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I doubt that's true tbf. But if it is, then Bayern, Barca, Madrid etc and the rest have also had a shocker including the stepping stone clubs.
Its there on Skysports quoting Giggs.
 

Foxbatt

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I don't think that's true. City had a bid of 35m+ rejected in 2016, before he fully blew up at Monaco.
When did we get Martial? It was before that. It is on Skysports. Jose took over in 2016. LVG was there for two years so I guess it would have been in 2014 when LVG took over.
 

Foxbatt

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I doubt that's true tbf. But if it is, then Bayern, Barca, Madrid etc and the rest have also had a shocker including the stepping stone clubs.
It was quoted on many news sites. It was a direct quote from Giggs. Would have been in 2014 then because he said he wanted Jesus and Mmbape. He said it was around 5million or so then. He said both him and the scout have seen them play for a while but LVG refused.
 

Adnan

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It was quoted on many news sites. It was a direct quote from Giggs. Would have been in 2014 then because he said he wanted Jesus and Mmbape. He said it was around 5million or so then. He said both him and the scout have seen them play for a while but LVG refused.
I did see the quote but how has Giggs come to the conclusion that Monaco would sell for a few million?
 

Foxbatt

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I did see the quote but how has Giggs come to the conclusion that Monaco would sell for a few million?
I have no idea and he may have discussed it with them? He also said about sending back him on loan so they may have agreed at that time in 2014.
 

Adnan

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SinNombre

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Every top club has scouted every good young player in Europe. There are no complete surprises, especially for players from Portugal, Spain or France.
 

AsonUnique

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Yeah, I have a friend who lives in Ijburg, a stone's throw from the Ajax Stadium, often goes to the games, he's been saying alot about this kid.

In the senior national team as well if I'm correct in saying?
Excellent prospect but not a holding/defensive mid, more of a Pogba type player. Raiola client too...
 

Kingslayer18

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There's is a young lad at Ajax who might develop into a similar type of player to Carrick.

Ryan Gravenberch



I actually think he's one of the closest comparisons to Pogba that I've seen. I think he's been mis-classified as a Carrick type. He'll eventually move forward and become more of an 8, who is still strong defensively. Almost like Bellingham.
 

justsomebloke

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Nah, he's very accurate with long passing, very economical with short passing. Stats will also prove that.
Definitely have to disagree with you on that.
Well that's the thing, they don't. His pass completion isn't good - 86,4%, worse than Fred or McTominay. His progressive passing stats are really rather weak - he doesn't hit many progressive passes, and don't have much progressive distance either. He hits fewer passes than f.e. McTominay, of all types, and completes fewer of them.

If you compare his stats to someone like Jorginho, the difference is huge. There we're talking 89,5% pass completion and not much less than twice the number of attempted passes that you'll get from the likes of Rice or McTominay (78 to 47/90). He's also much more influential in moving the ball forward - in terms of progressive distance of passing, he's 293/90 to Rice's 190/90.

That's a metronome. If we're talking in the context of a top team, Rice is in my opinion basically a physical defensive midfielder with OK passing and creative skills. At least so far.
 
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Well that's the thing, they don't. His pass completion isn't good - 86,4%, worse than Fred or McTominay. His progressive passing stats are really rather weak - he doesn't hit many progressive passes, and don't have much progressive distance either. He hits fewer passes than f.e. McTominay, of all types, and completes fewer of them.

If you compare his stats to someone like Jorginho, the difference is huge. There we're talking 89,5% pass completion and not much less than twice the number of attempted passes that you'll get from the likes of Rice or McTominay (78 to 47/90). He's also much more influential in moving the ball forward - in terms of progressive distance of passing, he's 293/90 to Rice's 190/90.

That's a metronome. If we're talking in the context of a top team, Rice is in my opinion basically a physical defensive midfielder with OK passing and creative skills. At least so far.
@Champ - he’s done you there!

I’m not the biggest fan of using stats in an argument, but when you say the stats will back you up - they really need too!
 

Abraxas

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Rice plays for West Ham, though. Even if they've been decent this year they don't really have a possession focused style. It's pretty hard to rack up huge numbers of passes for these sides in my opinion, is there anybody at these types of clubs that does that? I'd be interested to know.

I don't think they have the luxury that we or Chelsea often do where we are on top of the game with easy control of the ball. I think historically the guys that have been "metronomes", a word I really hate, they've usually been in already good sides.

I don't know if Rice is that player though, this is more of a general observation.
 

Bebestation

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I can wait to see if Garner ends up being our deep lying playmaker of the future. If he isn’t good enough then yes we need one.

However, replacing Matic is different to me. We need a ball winning midfielder in our squad when Matic’s time is up and that’s why I’m open to Rice joining us.

We need 3 styles of CDM in our squad in my opinion

1. Pure Ball winning Midfielder that provides stability - Matic to be replaced by Rice
2. Distributing Deep lying playmaker - this is currently done by Pogba but we have to see if Garner is good enough to be our future DLP. I don’t see why we should buy one when we might have two next season.
3. Pressing energy Kante type CDM/CM - this is currently done by Fred. Mctominay is a box to box but maybe can do this to some degree too.

This is why for me I want a pure ball winning midfielder to replace Matic.
 

justsomebloke

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Rice plays for West Ham, though. Even if they've been decent this year they don't really have a possession focused style. It's pretty hard to rack up huge numbers of passes for these sides in my opinion, is there anybody at these types of clubs that does that? I'd be interested to know.

I don't think they have the luxury that we or Chelsea often do where we are on top of the game with easy control of the ball. I think historically the guys that have been "metronomes", a word I really hate, they've usually been in already good sides.

I don't know if Rice is that player though, this is more of a general observation.
Yeah, that's a good point (and I'm not too fond of the metronome concept either). Role, system and team matters. I had a quick look at how he compares to Ward-Prowse, Neves, Anguissa and Kalvin Phillips (none of whom are exactly "metronomes" either, but who were the most passing-oriented quality central midfielders I could think of at mid- to lower-table clubs). Among those, he does have the best passing accuracy. He also has the lowest progressive distance of passes though, and the fewest attempted passes/90, as well as the fewest touches/90.

What jumps out at you there is I think how comparatively little he is involved - not a high number of passes, not a high number of touches. Eye test tells me the same (for what that's worth, it's not like I've watched West Ham regularly) really - he's not a player you notice as being more or less constantly involved, the one everything seems to go through.

In fact, on the occasions that's made me sit up and take notice with him, it's usually been when he's used his good speed and physique to unexpectedly move forward with the ball, against Poland for example. And Progressive carries is actually a really good stat for him, not just against the above players but also against good midfielders at top teams. That's one reason why I struggle to think of him as a "metronome" type, ie, someone who sits, is involved on the ball a lot in transition play and who tends to be a high-frequency and efficient ball distributor. To me, he looks much more like a sitting defensive midfielder who also has the capacity to roam and occasionally make decisive interventions forward.
 
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jamesjimmybyrondean

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If the plan is to play Pogba and Bruno then the only DM that I know that has successfully been paired with those types of players of similar skillset is Ndidi (when he played with Tielemans and Maddison).
 

Champ

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Well that's the thing, they don't. His pass completion isn't good - 86,4%, worse than Fred or McTominay. His progressive passing stats are really rather weak - he doesn't hit many progressive passes, and don't have much progressive distance either. He hits fewer passes than f.e. McTominay, of all types, and completes fewer of them.

If you compare his stats to someone like Jorginho, the difference is huge. There we're talking 89,5% pass completion and not much less than twice the number of attempted passes that you'll get from the likes of Rice or McTominay (78 to 47/90). He's also much more influential in moving the ball forward - in terms of progressive distance of passing, he's 293/90 to Rice's 190/90.

That's a metronome. If we're talking in the context of a top team, Rice is in my opinion basically a physical defensive midfielder with OK passing and creative skills. At least so far.
Stats without context are very misleading.

How much possesion do Chelsea/Man Utd have compared to West Ham? I'll answer that one for you - 10% more possesion for United, 14% for Chelsea. They are better teams, West Ham have been over achieving.

Rice however compared to Tielemans for example has better passing stats, also has very similar passing stats to Hojberg, who I would say is a very similar player and had a decent season.

Rice when playing for England produces several good passes and generally plays a more expansive game than at West Ham.
 

Champ

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@Champ - he’s done you there!

I’m not the biggest fan of using stats in an argument, but when you say the stats will back you up - they really need too!
Please see my latest post,

When a team has more possesion, stats will usually favour that player in terms of numbers.

Context is key with stats, so my point does indeed still stand and is very valid. Put Rice aginst Tielemans for example, and his number stack up, put him against teams who have a similar possesion count and finished close in terms of position and his numbers do indeed stack up.

Stats without context are misleading.

Just to edit this: Rice has among the best passing stats of West Ham this year, in terms of progressive passes, pass completion, and average passes during the game.

Stats eh!
 
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Abraxas

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Yeah, that's a good point (and I'm not too fond of the metronome concept either). Role, system and team matters. I had a quick look at how he compares to Ward-Prowse, Neves, Anguissa and Kalvin Phillips (none of whom are exactly "metronomes" either, but who were the most passing-oriented quality central midfielders I could think of at mid- to lower-table clubs). Among those, he does have the best passing accuracy. He also has the lowest progressive distance of passes though, and the fewest attempted passes/90, as well as the fewest touches/90.

What jumps out at you there is I think how comparatively little he is involved - not a high number of passes, not a high number of touches. Eye test tells me the same (for what that's worth, it's not like I've watched West Ham regularly) really - he's not a player you notice as being more or less constantly involved, the one everything seems to go through.

In fact, on the occasions that's made me sit up and notice with him, it's usually been when he's used his good speed and physique to unexpectedly move forward with the ball, against Poland for example. And Progressive carries is actually a really good stat for him, not just against the above players but also against good midfielders at top teams. That's one reason why I struggle to think of him as a "metronome" type, ie, someone who sits, is involved on the ball a lot in transition play and who tends to be a high-frequency and efficient ball distributor. To me, he looks much more like a sitting defensive midfielder who also has the capacity to roam and occasionally make decisive interventions forward.
I would have guessed Phillips would be the closest to this type of player. But again, he is possibly thwarted in some of these stats by Leeds high energy, get the ball forward quickly style. Then you've got two players in Ward-Prowse and Anguissa playing for poor sides. I think it says a lot about the way the game is played now too.

I think if somebody is expecting a Carrick like ability to be pivotal to play and buildup then we probably have to see the potential in a player, or maybe buy from a team known for playing through midfield consistently. Possibly even a foreign side more likely to rely on such a player. The ones good at it in the PL are already at good sides. I think City picked out Rodri precisely for this reason, he had stats that fit this profile within Spain.

Does Ole want this type of player? Somebody like Rice is quite logical for Ole because of some defensive stability, physicality, well rounded. It fits a side trying to play forward intensively and use our pace and power. We don't play well when we're building patiently. It's a tricky one, you can argue that is precisely because we miss an authoritative passer.
 
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georgipep

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Yeah, that's a good point (and I'm not too fond of the metronome concept either). Role, system and team matters. I had a quick look at how he compares to Ward-Prowse, Neves, Anguissa and Kalvin Phillips (none of whom are exactly "metronomes" either, but who were the most passing-oriented quality central midfielders I could think of at mid- to lower-table clubs). Among those, he does have the best passing accuracy. He also has the lowest progressive distance of passes though, and the fewest attempted passes/90, as well as the fewest touches/90.

What jumps out at you there is I think how comparatively little he is involved - not a high number of passes, not a high number of touches. Eye test tells me the same (for what that's worth, it's not like I've watched West Ham regularly) really - he's not a player you notice as being more or less constantly involved, the one everything seems to go through.

In fact, on the occasions that's made me sit up and notice with him, it's usually been when he's used his good speed and physique to unexpectedly move forward with the ball, against Poland for example. And Progressive carries is actually a really good stat for him, not just against the above players but also against good midfielders at top teams. That's one reason why I struggle to think of him as a "metronome" type, ie, someone who sits, is involved on the ball a lot in transition play and who tends to be a high-frequency and efficient ball distributor. To me, he looks much more like a sitting defensive midfielder who also has the capacity to roam and occasionally make decisive interventions forward.
Rice is a player I like but he is a DM that plays like a CB. That's also why his passes are safer, short distance, usually to the side. He doesn't compare well to Matić and in my view is inferior to McT in his passing and other creative aspects. He could do a job in a 433, in my view. But if Ole wants Bruno in the #10 position, I don't think Rice will be the solution.
 

justsomebloke

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Stats without context are very misleading.

How much possesion do Chelsea/Man Utd have compared to West Ham? I'll answer that one for you - 10% more possesion for United, 14% for Chelsea. They are better teams, West Ham have been over achieving.

Rice however compared to Tielemans for example has better passing stats, also has very similar passing stats to Hojberg, who I would say is a very similar player and had a decent season.

Rice when playing for England produces several good passes and generally plays a more expansive game than at West Ham.
See subsequent post to the one you replied to.
 
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justsomebloke

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Rice is a player I like but he is a DM that plays like a CB. That's also why his passes are safer, short distance, usually to the side. He doesn't compare well to Matić and in my view is inferior to McT in his passing and other creative aspects. He could do a job in a 433, in my view. But if Ole wants Bruno in the #10 position, I don't think Rice will be the solution.
No, I would tend to agree.
 

justsomebloke

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I would have guessed Phillips would be the closest to this type of player. But again, he is possibly thwarted in some of these stats by Leeds high energy, get the ball forward quickly style. Then you've got two players in Ward-Prowse and Anguissa playing for poor sides. I think it says a lot about the way the game is played now too.

I think if somebody is expecting a Carrick like ability to be pivotal to play and buildup then we probably have to see the potential in a player, or maybe buy from a team known for playing through midfield consistently. Possibly even a foreign side more likely to rely on such a player. The ones good at it in the PL are already at good sides. I think City picked out Rodri precisely for this reason, he had stats that fit this profile within Spain.

Does Ole want this type of player? Somebody like Rice is quite logical for Ole because of some defensive stability, physicality, well rounded. It fits a side trying to play forward intensively and use our pace and power. We don't play well when we're building patiently. It's a tricky one, you can argue that is precisely because we miss an authoritative passer.
Except if you're playing forward intensively, you'll want someone who is good at progressing the ball, and that seems to be one of Rice's weakest areas. Arguably, you are more rather than less reliant on that with a more direct style rather than a more patient one? But maybe they figure Pogba and Fred gives us enough in those areas. Who knows, I'm not even sure if we're still trying to be a more possession-oriented side or not. It looked that way earlier in the season, but not so much towards the end.

Kalvin Phillips is stats-wise remarkably similar to McTominay, I'd say. At least for the areas I've looked at.
 

justsomebloke

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Looks a very well rounded player, only a year left on his contract aswell.
Some stats posted earlier. Almost no offensive impact, but seems to progress the ball pretty well and good, if not great, defensive and pressing stats.
 

bucky

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Anyone know much about him?

I think he is worse than Rice, from the limited amount I've seen. Initially played as CB for Marseille, his passing is decent and defensively he is sound, but I don't think he offers what we lack in midfield. There are better options in France.
 

red thru&thru

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I fully expect us to be in for Bellingham next year. So I'm not too sure what will be done this year with a midfielder?!

If we can get someone like Ndidi/Rice for a good price by including Jesse, then it will be fine. But I imagine a lot of budget will be saved up for next season on Bellingham.
 

justsomebloke

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I think he is worse than Rice, from the limited amount I've seen. Initially played as CB for Marseille, his passing is decent and defensively he is sound, but I don't think he offers what we lack in midfield. There are better options in France.
Camavinga, for example. He's pretty affordable though. If they think he's good enough to provide added value over f.e. McTominay (plus, at 21, offer a higher potential), he could perhaps make sense in a situation where there's a limited amount of money to invest in a midfielder.