PR Draft SF: Physio/Synco vs Sjor

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

------------------------------------------ TEAM PHYSIO ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TEAM SJOR ------------------------------------------------------

TEAM PHYSIO

Formation:
4231 with asymmetric FBs - fast & direct transition football - balanced defensive line

Offense:

• Exploit Sjor's lack of natural width - attack the flanks to stretch his narrow formation (especially overloading Zico's defensive side with Demyanenko & Kempes)
• This should in turn open up spaces for Platini and Robson in the middle
• Krol's diagonal long passing is a perfect tool for these tactics
• Carlos Alberto to tuck in & create a quasi-back-3 in possession, allowing Demyanenko to bomb forward

Defense:

Spoiler: defensive formation

(Just our basic setup, Sjor's team will move around of course.)

• Tight 442 shape against the ball
• Figo & Kempes to provide crucial support defending wide areas against Sjor's players advancing/drifting there
• Nesta on Elkjaer's side, but zonal marking
• Seeler picks up Baresi's/Vasovic's forward runs

TEAM SJOR

tactics:

High Line, High Press
Reasoning:

• Goalkeeper alone justifies the tactics
• Second time in a short period i face lone striker Seeler against a high line, adore Uwe, my favorite striker of all time but he would struggle
• Not only Uwe, looking at both teams i feel pretty comfortable at defending the counter
• Physio/Synco team is pretty good on the ball, even in the backline so the high press isnt necessarily there to win the ball back, aim of the game is to make the "playing" pitch as small as possible and there i feel my team has a major advantage and there is where Iniesta wins this game.
• With addition of Baresi and Yashin and with my belief how football should be played, it just makes sense

Vasovic - Baresi, two sweepers together?
Former won the EC with Barry Hulshoff so i went to check more about him and what i saw is a lot of similarities with Baresi. Forward runs, agressive front foot defending, good reading of the game etc.
Then i started thinking about Baresi and he really isnt anything like your classic sweepers of that or any time when you separate only the defending phase and on paper it does look good.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Physiocrat @Šjor Bepo all the best

 

[Physiocrat]

@Physiocrat @Šjor Bepo all the best

Thanks for setting up. Could you please put Synco's name in the thread title as my AM?

 

[General_Elegancia]

@Synco

 

[Jim Beam]

Kempes - Figo with Platini is just brilliant (with Uwe up top). Still, my initial impression is that Iniesta and Zico can win this game and get better of Voronin - Robson, especially as Robson would naturally come surging forward at times.

Looking forward to the debate.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Nesta and Krol can be swapped.

 

[Physiocrat]

Nesta and Krol can be swapped.

They can be but Krol was right footed (although he had a very good left foot too) and in his more libero incarnation makes more sense at RCB so he better exploit his long passing which will help with fast transitions.

I very much admire Sjor's side, the magic square is rarely executed this well but it does lack natural width especially on the right flank as Zico was much happier in the middle (in Brazil in 82 Socrates was more on the right).This means Zanetti will have to be pretty attacking to make the pitch sufficiently stretched horizontally. However this is where the CBs become a problem. Let's grant for the moment that in principle Vasovic and Baresi are a good pairing, they simply can't be at their best in the system. Vasovic played as a libero in a Dutch 433 which had wingers providing the width which allowed him to play an attacking game and the full-backs were comparatively defensive. See this video on Vasovic and see how often he joined the midfield:


Baresi played with more defensive full-backs in the system to allow him more freedom going forward. This isn't necessarily a problem but it really limits both players from being their best. Yes the back 3 (assuming Cole stays more back) can shift over and Tigana cover the space a bit but to what extent might that harm the functioning of the midfield if Tigana is somewhat wider than he might want given the system.

Also the high line high press tactic really only works that well when you outstrip the opposition in terms of possession. Whilst Sjor will probably have a bit more it won't be like City vs Burnley. So we will have the ball quite a bit and we can do damage there. Iniesta and Zico are much happier defending with the ball than without it.

Also since Zanetti is up field quite a bit I can see Demyanenko and Kempes being a definite route to goal with our fast transitions.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

There cant be lack of width with two strikers that are more then capable of providing width alongside fullbacks and midfielders that can drift wide in need.

Regarding Vasovic, as per OP i researched Hulshoff as much as i could and he went up even more so then Vasovic and thats one of the reasons i was happy to pair them up.

There will always be more then enough protection with Schweini playing holding role, Tigana and fullbacks being great in defensive transition etc.

High line and press isnt only for winning the ball, it will force the game to be played on a smaller pitch and that suits more to my team then yours, also it gives Iniesta the perfect stage to showcase his ability.

 

[Himannv]

Really close game and really hard to separate these two sides. Leaning towards voting for Sjor at the moment but will keep an eye on the debate.

 

[Physiocrat]

High line and press isnt only for winning the ball, it will force the game to be played on a smaller pitch and that suits more to my team then yours, also it gives Iniesta the perfect stage to showcase his ability.

High pressing only forces the game onto a smaller pitch if we can't play beyond it.

Krol and Platini's long balls to our wide forwards. Kempes is a great outlet, Figo was played on this way all the time. Both can go 1:1 or pin or the ball down, allowing others to advance.

No small pitch anymore, as the game is in your half.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Regarding Vasovic, as per OP i researched Hulshoff as much as i could and he went up even more so then Vasovic and thats one of the reasons i was happy to pair them up.

Difference being Hulshoff was as much a stopper as good on the ball and was a good foil for Vasovic. Don't find the CB pairing complimentary at all. The rest of the team is class of course, obviously nothing else has changed anyways.

I'd still choose Bepo as the winner in my eyes, magic squares are love and the well built ones are sex. Vasovic should be changed for the final though if you do go through. Not even debatable IMO.

For physio, no major or any tactical changes from previous rounds and that is off putting for me in an all time draft when there is so much room with players. 4 rounds of the same thing is boring.

 

[Physiocrat]

Difference being Hulshoff was as much a stopper as good on the ball and was a good foil for Vasovic. Don't find the CB pairing complimentary at all. The rest of the team is class of course, obviously nothing else has changed anyways.

Don't you think the CBs are going to have a particularly hard time given how much the full-backs need to attack?

 

[Physiocrat]

For physio, no major or any tactical changes from previous rounds and that is off putting for me in an all time draft when there is so much room with players. 4 rounds of the same thing is boring.

It would be interesting to change it up, but any changes just mess up the chemistry for Platini to shine.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

High pressing only forces the game onto a smaller pitch if we can't play beyond it.

Krol and Platini's long balls to our wide forwards. Kempes is a great outlet, Figo was played on this way all the time. Both can go 1:1 or pin or the ball down, allowing others to advance.

No small pitch anymore, as the game is in your half.

No, its a small pitch game unless you just lump it.....

im perfectly fine with defending your front line on the counter, might be wrong but i dont find it that threatable in this specific scenario

 

[Enigma_87]

voted to see the score, don't count it at the end

Great sides, good luck to both.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Don't you think the CBs are going to have a particularly hard time given how much the full-backs need to attack?

Not really IMO. You have a 1 striker setup. If it was Kocsis-Cristiano, sure. With Kempes, I think it should be okay.

And then it's Zanetti of all people, how do you even upgrade that. That is the best that can be done.

Of course, as I said, the CB partnership is no good and would ideally lose my vote instantly in most games.

It would be interesting to change it up, but any changes just mess up the chemistry for Platini to shine.

Understandable. But it does get a bit redundant and you don't feel the same excitement I felt when I saw your team in R1

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@GodShaveTheQueen true though i do find Baresi proactive style of defending which was often agressive and on the front foot suitable to Vasovic style, at least IMO

 

[Physiocrat]

No, its a small pitch game unless you just lump it.....

im perfectly fine with defending your front line on the counter, might be wrong but i dont find it that threatable in this specific scenario

Long passes ≠ lumping it. Any way, we are more than capable of breaking the press which means that Iniesta and Zico in particular will need to defend in the organised defensive phase which really isn't their strength especially Zico. I doubt Zico will provide very good cover for Zanetti so again Demyanenko and Kempes will have some joy.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Long passes ≠ lumping it. Any way, we are more than capable of breaking the press which means that Iniesta and Zico in particular will need to defend in the organised defensive phase which really isn't their strength especially Zico. I doubt Zico will provide very good cover for Zanetti so again Demyanenko and Kempes will have some joy.

passing when leaved alone and passing under pressure are two completely different things, so really have no concerns about that.

what your team can do is escape the press and thats where the danger is but looking at whole picture, its much bigger benefit to my side to defend those few counters whefe you escape on the ground but get all the benefits of a high line high press then play a more basic game.

Also, in a long pass scenario Demyanenko isnt that much of an asset because if he has time to get up, it also means Tigana will be there to help out.

 

[Physiocrat]

passing when leaved alone and passing under pressure are two completely different things, so really have no concerns about that.

what your team can do is escape the press and thats where the danger is but looking at whole picture, its much bigger benefit to my side to defend those few counters whefe you escape on the ground but get all the benefits of a high line high press then play a more basic game.

Also, in a long pass scenario Demyanenko isnt that much of an asset because if he has time to get up, it also means Tigana will be there to help out.

You are assuming you will have far more possession than you actually will. Yours is not a Pep side, the only real link you have is Iniesta. Your side is much more similar to, unsurprisingly, Brazil 82. Now clearly you will play a more controlling game than they did, by modern standards they were rather direct, but a full on possession side you aren't. So there will be a lot of times where you are in the organised defensive phase which is where the relative lack of defensive work by Zico is something Demyanenko along with Kempes can exploit.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

You are assuming you will have far more possession than you actually will. Yours is not a Pep side, the only real link you have is Iniesta. Your side is much more similar to, unsurprisingly, Brazil 82. Now clearly you will play a more controlling game than they did, by modern standards they were rather direct, but a full on possession side you aren't. So there will be a lot of times where you are in the organised defensive phase which is where the relative lack of defensive work by Zico is something Demyanenko along with Kempes can exploit.

yes im not a Pep side but there is no doubt im winning the possession battle and that would be the case even if your tactics were different. This way im winning the possession battle with your help as well cause your tactics is not to keep the ball.

It wont be City vs Burnley by any means but i will have majority of possession of that im certain.

 

[Synco]

Hi Sjor, nice to meet you in a game (first time I think).

I was already fawning over your side last round, so no need to repeat that and ruin our chances too much

Just wanna chip in on how I see the matchup and game flow.

I unsurprisingly agree with Physio in that your team resembles an '80s attacking side more than a modern possession/counterpressing one. I think you're closer to the counterpressing thing there (some great players for it), but with Zico it's not really a "hunting as a pack for 90 minutes" scenario either.

To achieve the levels of dominance you indicated earlier, you would need that and no less. Especially since our side has the technical ability to play around pressure, both with long and short passes, as you said yourself. Doesn't mean you can't trouble us at times, but defo not to the degree you say (imo).

We have also stated in our OP that we defend tightly, but not especially deep ("balanced defensive line"), let alone play passively. We mainly sat back more vs Gio to super-protect our fullbacks, which we don't need here.

To sum it up:

I think you won't have anywhere near these levels of suffocation and dominance, and this game will be much more open than you assume. We will have our possession and pressurize your team, attacking will be more even, and you'll have to defend "normally" & deeper as well.

 

[Synco]

yes im not a Pep side but there is no doubt im winning the possession battle and that would be the case even if your tactics were different. This way im winning the possession battle with your help as well cause your tactics is not to keep the ball.

It wont be City vs Burnley by any means but i will have majority of possession of that im certain.

See you've clarified it a bit more while I typed, my former post was written under the impression of earlier remarks (long punts to isolated wingers etc). So we can perhaps meet halfway or so.

I agree you're going to have more possession to some degree, your team is built for that. But to make it clear, we have not employed a counter system here like in the last round. Our OP's remark on the balanced backline was meant to point that out, and the move with Alberto cutting in to form a temporary back 3 creates a typical possession-oriented shape. We play fast & direct transitions because it suits our players, but that's different to a sit-deep-and-counter scenario.

We can argue over what this means for the match, but these fundamentals should be part of the argument.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Both are great teams and it would be very hard to separate. So, I will follow the debate and discussions closely ( if I have enough time).

Will comment only on Baresi and Vasovic department

Baresi was capable of being very aggressive player especially in man-marking opponent's attackers, he was never afraid to make some tough or rough challenges especially in his later career(post world cup 1994) which he commited reckless fouls a lot due to losing his athleticism and speed. He could easily operate as a stopper for sure and Vasovic was always operated by managers as sweeper and didn't play as aggressively as Baresi. I can see both of them dovetail each other well, although both of them mainly played as sweeper/ball playing cb, their attitudes, characteristics and style of defending were not similar at all.

In fact, Baresi is one of the sweepers who could pair with another sweeper defender type like Bobby Moore or even Scirea due to his aggressiveness, imperious, uncompromising and sometimes arrogant. Other defenders who belong into the group of sweepers style of defending who could pair with another sweeper defender type at the highest level are Daniel Passarella, Virgil Van Dijk, Alessandro Nesta, Elias Figueroa and Marius Tresor. All of them have great amount of athleticism, aggressiveness and not mediocre in aerial situations.

So, Baresi and Vasovic pairing each other isn't a problem for me. Although Barry Hulshoff was more of a stopper and was a good foil for Vasovic. Yes, a lot of occasions Hulshoff went forward to join in attacking phase, it's a total football philosophy.




The only thing I'm concern is aerial battle against Uwe Seeler, Seeler was rated as almost goat header under 5 foot 9. This guy could outjump anyone in the history of football. I've even seen Seeler outjumped 6 foot 2 Facchetti in WC semi-final 1970. Plus he had some services from Figo's crossing or Platini long-balls. It wouldn't easy to deal with Seeler's jumping ability, heading techniques( he could perform any kind of headers), direct aerial battles and probably in set-pieces situations like corners or free-kicks.

 

[General_Elegancia]

It's close game and appropriate match-up for semi-finale.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

See you've clarified it a bit more while I typed, my former post was written under the impression of earlier remarks (long punts to isolated wingers etc). So we can perhaps meet halfway or so.

I agree you're going to have more possession to some degree, your team is built for that. But to make it clear, we have not employed a counter system here like in the last round. Our OP's remark on the balanced backline was meant to point that out, and the move with Alberto cutting in to form a temporary back 3 creates a typical possession-oriented shape. We play fast & direct transitions because it suits our players, but that's different to a sit-deep-and-counter scenario.

We can argue over what this means for the match, but these fundamentals should be part of the argument.

Im amazed you guys battle this as its pure logic, if one side has built close towards possession and other is designed to play fast and direct, its natural that the former will have more possession im baffled this is even a debate. Debate should be which side will get more from each side, can my team break your defence and do something of prolonged spells of possession or will your counters will be too much for my side.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Also, i must be the dumbest person live for picking gk in a semi final RR but feck it, if there is any time a keeper should get some attention its this year when a team won the CL pretty much solely through efforts of a keeper, not only in the final but through the whole tournament. Step ahead, best keeper(or at worst second best) that ever played the game. Its a game of two good sides, fine margins and all that so having a GOAT keeper should matter for once.

 

[harms]

Also, i must be the dumbest person live for picking gk in a semi final RR but feck it, if there is any time a keeper should get some attention its this year when a team won the CL pretty much solely through efforts of a keeper, not only in the final but through the whole tournament. Step ahead, best keeper(or at worst second best) that ever played the game. Its a game of two good sides, fine margins and all that so having a GOAT keeper should matter for once.

Good point.

 

[Physiocrat]

This is probably a bit boring now but the setup of ours is absolutely brilliant for Platini. Two selfless forwards to slot in through balls in the box and a genuine winger to fire in out wide.

This video showcases Platini's exceptional passing ability:


Also as the general pointed out the lack of a exceptional header of the ball on Sjor's side might give Uwe that edge to nick a goal from a Figo cross.

Also off the ball we have tremendous work rate - even the all the front four provide loads off the ball. I think Zico's relative lack of pressing is a small chink in Sjor's side given his tactics.

We did think he might go 343 false 9 diamond and take inspiration from the Cruyff side with Laudrup as false 9. This was because it would better dovetail the Baresi and Vasovic partnership and put Zico in the centre and relieve him of some pressing duties. Something like this:

..................Zico.......................
Blokhin.....................Elkjaer
................Iniesta.....................
.....Bastian.........Tigana
...............Vasovic...............
....Cole....Baresi...Zanetti
................Goalie ............

 

[Synco]

Im amazed you guys battle this as its pure logic, if one side has built close towards possession and other is designed to play fast and direct, its natural that the former will have more possession im baffled this is even a debate. Debate should be which side will get more from each side, can my team break your defence and do something of prolonged spells of possession or will your counters will be too much for my side.

No disagreement there, I already said you'll have a plus on possession. The dispute is to which degree. Since we don't intend to just defend deep or be restricted to counters, the question is if you can force us to.

One thing is that you translate "fast & direct transitions" with "not valuing possession", which isn't what we mean. It's just how Seeler, Kempes, Figo, Robbo liked to attack - they get the ball, they have a go at it. Doesn't mean they don't know how to play the smart pass and recycle possession when the route to goal is blocked. Platini and Krol are proper playmakers who can structure a game, Alberto is rather decent too. This side won't just hand you the ball by playing a hail Mary in such a situation.

Our backline should be positioned medium high at that point, so you'd have to force us to retreat first when winning the ball. Which we'll fight tooth & nails.

I also don't think your side will be quite as possession-dominant as it needs to be to permanently force this kind of game on us. I don't see Zico & Elkjaer as 100% possession players who love to patiently dominate the opponent to death. To me, there's more directness and tendency to risk in your side than that (also with Baresi, perhaps Blokhin).

None of this is problematic or anything (I also take your word for Yashin), but some key players just give it more of an earlier total football character than a modern 70% possession side, imo.

That's why I generally see this match play out more akin to an older game; not as hyper-structured as a modern one, more transitions & verticality. I'm also sure there will be phases where your plan A works and it plays out like you say. But only phases hopefully, because we intend to play the game in your half too.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

No disagreement there, I already said you'll have a plus on possession. The dispute is to which degree. Since we don't intend to just defend deep or be restricted to counters, the question is if you can force us to.

One thing is that you translate "fast & direct transitions" with "not valuing possession", which isn't what we mean. It's just how Seeler, Kempes, Figo, Robbo liked to attack - they get the ball, they have a go at it. Doesn't mean they don't know how to play the smart pass and recycle possession when the route to goal is blocked. Platini and Krol are proper playmakers who can structure a game, Alberto is rather decent too. This side won't just hand you the ball by playing a hail Mary in such a situation.

Our backline should be positioned medium high at that point, so you'd have to force us to retreat first when winning the ball. Which we'll fight tooth & nails.

I also don't think your side will be quite as possession-dominant as it needs to be to permanently force this kind of game on us. I don't see Zico & Elkjaer as 100% possession players who love to patiently dominate the opponent to death. To me, there's more directness and tendency to risk in your side than that (also with Baresi, perhaps Blokhin).

None of this is problematic or anything (I also take your word for Yashin), but some key players just give it more of an earlier total football character than a modern 70% possession side, imo.

That's why I generally see this match play out more akin to an older game; not as hyper-structured as a modern one, more transitions & verticality. I'm also sure there will be phases where your plan A works and it plays out like you say. But only phases hopefully, because we intend to play the game in your half too.

never said its gonna be a city burnley scenario but considering tactics, its fair to say that majority of your attacks will be on the counter.

your backline will then give my attack another dimension with Elkjaer and Blokhin being a factor when we win possession in deep areas.

it was never intention to go full possession so i actually agree, already said multiple times this isnt Pep/City team.
Regarding Elkjaer and Blokhin, even in the most possession based team you need direct attackers.

Well, thats the thing with drafts. You assume players will adapt to a completely different systems and IMO whrn talents fit and there are some key touching points between systems they played in and systems you put them in then its a green light.
Regarding the last point, those 70% possessions evolved directly from the Total Football.

 

[Physiocrat]

never said its gonna be a city burnley scenario but considering tactics, its fair to say that majority of your attacks will be on the counter.

Not trying to be pedantic, but what do you mean by a counter attack? Is it attacking when you are not in your organised defensive phase? Do you think say Brazil 82 (I am not saying we are like them) mostly engaged in counter attacks against the best sides?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Not trying to be pedantic, but what do you mean by a counter attack? Is it attacking when you are not in your organised defensive phase? Do you think say Brazil 82 (I am not saying we are like them) mostly engaged in counter attacks against the best sides?

didnt watch a single game of that brazil so i have no idea

 

[Šjor Bepo]

but personnel wise your team looks like peak jose side, think he would adore Platini who is pretty much the ultimate upgrade on Sneijder who he also adored

 

[Physiocrat]

Key points to finish (this will be my last post)

- Sjor's centre back combo is very un-complimentary and won't get the best out of the CBs especially when the full-backs need to provide a lot of width which they never did for a Baresi or Vasovic side. To fit Baresi and Vasovic in the same side a 343 diamond would work better

- There will be a decent amount of turnovers because Sjor's side, excepting Iniesta, are pretty direct and we have enough ability in the back 4 to break the press. So we will have a decent amount of the ball mostly with fast transitions but we can also slow it down if necessary. Zico will provide little cover for Zanetti so Kempes with Demyanenko could cause problems. Seeler is a GOAT in the air and neither of Sjor's CBs are that brilliant in the air.

- Finally the side is built around Platini who can make full use of his passing and goalscoring ability.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Key points to finish (this will be my last post)

- Sjor's centre back combo is very un-complimentary and won't get the best out of the CBs especially when the full-backs need to provide a lot of width which they never did for a Baresi or Vasovic side. To fit Baresi and Vasovic in the same side a 343 diamond would work better

- There will be a decent amount of turnovers because Sjor's side, excepting Iniesta, are pretty direct and we have enough ability in the back 4 to break the press. So we will have a decent amount of the ball mostly with fast transitions but we can also slow it down if necessary. Zico will provide little cover for Zanetti so Kempes with Demyanenko could cause problems. Seeler is a GOAT in the air and neither of Sjor's CBs are that brilliant in the air.

Disagree but we went over this already.

Absolute nonsense, apart from Baresi everyone is at least a good fit for the possession theme or played at high level in a possession based team(not Pep so we avoid dumb assumptions).

 

[Physiocrat]

Good game @Šjor Bepo You have an excellent side bar the CB combo. I do think as a minor point I don't think that Zico isn't ideally in that position. I think he would be better suited more centrally in more of a 4231. Or if want to keep the system KDB would tactically be better as he presses better and his happier outwide.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

good game boys

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Told ya, can't beat a good magic square even if your team is equally good.

 

[Synco]

Congrats @Šjor Bepo

Game's done & dusted, so I can go back praising your side again

Wonderful draft team, and when I was waffling about seeing it more as a classic total football one, that's actually a compliment. I love these historical sides who combine progressive concepts and a collective style with a more individualistic old school vibe. Think your team has that kind of mix (and unlike Physio, I'd keep Zico precisely because of that).

but personnel wise your team looks like peak jose side, think he would adore Platini who is pretty much the ultimate upgrade on Sneijder who he also adored

Kind of, and we made this the basis of our setup last round. (We discussed, but ultimately ditched the Mou reference, as we didn't want to play that reactively. Although Voronin/Robbo/Platini = Makelele/Essien/Sneijder was very tempting.)

But on the other hand, I don't think our group would be well served (or too happy) playing like that constantly. There's too much attacking spirit in these guys to mainly think against the ball.