Premier League Draft SF: Gio vs Skizzo

[Gio]

For all the talk of Cantona vs Drogba as big-game goal scorers (where I would still give the edge to The King - better player and better goal scorer for my money), Cantona is only our third biggest goal-threat whereas Drogba is Skizzo’s biggest source of goals. The real beauty of Cantona here is his creativity dropping into space behind the midfield to pick up the ball, spin off Alonso and play through our inside forwards (the sort of role Kane has been trying to play feeding in Son for Spurs). It’s in my inside forward positions that by a distance the biggest source of goals on the park - with both Suarez and Salah hitting close to goal-a-game peaks that none of Skizzo’s players can match.

.. he’d be an absolute dream as a Pep false #9



Have to take issue with Skizzo’s presentation of the stats previously around Drogba, where he takes his best two seasons (which were years apart) and makes a comparison to Suarez with no allowance for the number of games played. Whilst it’s true peak Drogba (Mourinho 2004-07 era) scored more overall goals than Suarez in his single best season, he did so with 33 goals in 60 games, whereas Suarez was hitting nearly a goal a game (31 goals in 37 games) in a much worse Liverpool side than the dominant Mourinho Chelsea team which Drogba played in.



Either side of that season Drogba scored in the mid-teens and it was only in 2009/10 that he returned to top goal scoring form. Ultimately if you look at his overall body of work, Drogba has only scored 20 goals in two of his nine years at Chelsea - one of which was outside those peak Mourinho years and presumably not the version that Skizzo is using here.

By comparison Salah has five straight seasons of scoring 20+ goals, including two seasons where he’s hitting close to a goal a game (44 in 52 as his best) whilst Suarez had back to back 30+ goal seasons which is a level of consistency never shown by Drogba (as well as being a far higher actual ‘peak’ in terms of performance).


Just to pick up on one more part of Skizzo’s post there - to say that De Bruyne “barely has a higher tally than Kante” seems really disingenuous. De Bruyne has five seasons scoring 10+ goals, and if we cherry pick his best two seasons (in the same way that was done for Drogba) then he scored 32 goals in 89 games (better than one in three) - whereas Kante’s highest scoring seasons are 8 goals in 81 games (one in ten)…

I think this is rightfully a close game and I’d be the last to downplay that Mourinho Chelsea side. But with that said, I think there’s a very clear gap in terms of goal threat here which is likely to make the difference six times out of ten. Something else that hasn’t even been touched in above is the massive difference in terms of creativity, with the likes of Suarez and Salah capable of creating their own chances in a way Drogba never could, Cantona the creative hub dropping deep behind the midfield and Trent offering more goal scoring creativity than literally any of Skizzo’s players with the sole exception of perhaps Giggs.

And for all the downplaying of De Bruyne’s goal threat (barely more than Kante’s...), he’s comfortably the most decisive and creative player on the park. After all his assist-to-game ratio is the 4th best of all time, behind only Puskas, Cruyff and Pele.

Spoiler: Greatest Creators

His ability to thread eye of the needle passes through the lines saw Sterling consistently hit 20-30 goals which is something he’d relish replicating and taking to another level entirely with Salah and Suarez.

 

[Skizzo]

Comparing “creativity” in a match thread like this when it’s completely different styles and approaches is a little off as well.

Saying there’s a lack of creativity discounts the assist totals for Giggs and Lampard (both 100+) as well as the 60+ for Anderton.

In terms of the goal totals, I laid it out with the season, and didn’t mention the games for any players, if I did, I’d have pointed out that Drogba’s peak season had him his 37 goals in 44 appearances.

The De Bruyne / Kante comparison was touched on, and I said they were both higher, but again, we’re comparing two players who also play as wingers or as the forward leading the line for a dominant Pep side, compared to the DM who runs all over the field and shuts down oppositions teams.

 

[Gio]

@General_Elegancia Raised an interesting point about Trent's rotating position. One aspect the team tries to achieve is that rotation between the FBs, the CMs and the WFs. So for instance Irwin can come into a Cancelo-style inside-left channel, Bernardo can peel wide into a LW position, Suarez can cut inside. Same on the right flank, where Trent can drop into the inside-right channel, KDB can pull wide, and Salah can cut inside. Football is a fluid game and it's the movement and interchanging that characterises the best teams - and is what kills the rigid defensive ones.

These figures aren't completely correct as Trent already has 12 in the league for 2021/22, and 17 in all competitions. That's 3 out of the top 4 seasons from a defender provided by Trent. Just to put that into context Skizzo's Cole had 19 assists in his entire 400-game Premier League career. A figure that Trent will quite possibly overtake in a single season.

At some point we have to acknowledge that the likes of Trent (and Robbo / Cancelo for that matter) are playing some extraordinary football and providing some serious end product that completely dwarfs what most of the traditional full-backs in the Premier League have been capable of producing. None of that is to say that those more traditional full-backs were not good players, and often more seasoned defenders, but few really contributed to the success of a team the way these guys do as the statistics plainly demonstrate.

 

[Skizzo]

He also pointed out that TAA works well with having Henderson be a make-shift RB, which I don’t see anyone here filling in for.

As pointed out earlier, no one questions him going forward, it’s his defensive positioning etc that has drawn large criticism…which doesn’t bode well when Pep has critiqued his full backs before for defensive lapses.

 

[Gio]

Great debate leads. Really enjoyed reading this. Really hard to separate the sides. Will vote tomorrow

Thanks Physio. Agree it’s a close game, but ultimately I think we have a few key advantages and I’d back our side to win five or six times out of ten. There’s no doubt a defensive / counter attacking set-up would work occasionally, we’ve seen Pep’s sides lose games to that approach before, but it’s a massively difficult thing to pull-off given the offensive firepower on show here. You’re effectively banking on ceding possession and shutting out Salah, Cantona, Suarez, De Bruyne and others for 90 minutes, who are all capable of deciding a game in a moment - and whilst it’s possible for a Mourinho master-class to pull that off, on the balance of probabilities I can’t see that happening more than a couple of occasions in ten matches.

Defensively I also think the counter attacking threat has been strongly mitigated through the upgrade to Van Dijk who has the raw pace to cut out any direct balls over the top - in fact I’d say alongside Rio he’s the most effective centre back in the Premier League era at preventing counter attacks. Stylistically he’s a Pep’s ideal defender and I’d say our back-line is well suited to matching up with the physicality of Drogba.

On the other hand, Brown and Anderton look well out their depth against a dangerous Irwin / Suarez flank, with Bernardo dropping out wide to overlap. Suarez in his final season at Liverpool hit a level which approached the sorts of peaks that Ronaldo and Henry had in the Premier League. As much as I rate Brown as a defender, he’s facing a genuinely world class forward at the peak of his powers, and given the relative lack of threat from Anderton going in the other direction he’s massively exposed to a constant double up with Irwin (superb crosser, engine to motor all afternoon) which is the sort of flank overload that Pep regularly uses to break through pinned back defences.

 

[Skizzo]

Backing your side to win “5 or 6 times out of 10” means that you’d expect to lose half the time as well

Again, the angle being throw about of a Man City juggernaut against a plucky lower league side doesn’t match up to what’s on the field. The Mourinho’s Chelsea side threw up all sorts of records for points, goals etc, and now it’s backed up with an improved midfield, and defense.

On the flip side, TAA doesn’t fit ideally into the setup to get the best version of him due to no one covering when he goes forward. Irwin was also consistent, but he was hardly the type of physical athlete that Pep has at full back.

Rodri has been pointed out as the area that teams look to exploit, and we addressed his issue with picking up yellow cards, and with Alonso pinging balls on the transition, it doesn’t bode well that two players who oppositions teams look to exploit to be stuck on the back foot of a quick transition.

 

[Gio]

Backing your side to win “5 or 6 times out of 10” means that you’d expect to lose half the time as well

Again, the angle being throw about of a Man City juggernaut against a plucky lower league side doesn’t match up to what’s on the field. The Mourinho’s Chelsea side threw up all sorts of records for points, goals etc, and now it’s backed up with an improved midfield, and defense.

Well I would say we'd win 5-6, draw 2-3, and lose a couple.

But in terms of the City/Chelsea comparisons, you're also carrying a weak right flank, far weaker than what Mourinho's right side which was typically Gallas and Robben. And Robben having a crucial role with his sheer pace enabling a counter-attacking plan to come off. So compared to his Chelsea you're a bit stronger in midfield, but weaker on one side of the park.

By contrast our City blueprint has the same midfield, but a vastly improved attack (Suarez > Sterling, Cantona > Foden, Salah > Mahrez), and a defence bolstered by Van Dijk who would be an absolute cheat code in this City side.

We have both committed to our strategies, but I believe that we have strengthened and innovated the City model to a greater degree.

 

[Skizzo]

Well I would say we'd win 5-6, draw 2-3, and lose a couple.

But in terms of the City/Chelsea comparisons, you're also carrying a weak right flank, far weaker than what Mourinho's right side which was typically Gallas and Robben. And Robben having a crucial role with his sheer pace enabling a counter-attacking plan to come off. So compared to his Chelsea you're a bit stronger in midfield, but weaker on one side of the park.

By contrast our City blueprint has the same midfield, but a vastly improved attack (Suarez > Sterling, Cantona > Foden, Salah > Mahrez), and a defence bolstered by Van Dijk who would be an absolute cheat code in this City side.

We have both committed to our strategies, but I believe that we have strengthened and innovated the City model to a greater degree.

I might say we’d grind out the wins more often than not, but that’s why we’re debating

In regards to the last point and how you’ve vastly improved the side and we’ve made sideways steps on the Chelsea blueprint

José Mourinho’s 2005/06 Chelsea side are the only team to start a Premier League season with nine consecutive wins: • 23 goals scored • 6 clean sheets • 3 goals conceded.(at the time)

its an improvement in the full back spots, Goalkeeper is a marginal improvement, we have better distribution from the midfield without losing anything defensively, Giggs- Ashley Cole is vastly superior to Gallas-Joe Cole/Duff, and Robben of The premier league years didn’t have the production and peak of later Robben, so in terms of output, there’s no real drop off from the assist numbers.

So we’re more solid defensively across the backline, as well as adding greater distribution from the midfield, and don’t lose any pace on the counter from a Robben type to Giggs.

 

[General_Elegancia]

@General_Elegancia Raised an interesting point about Trent's rotating position. One aspect the team tries to achieve is that rotation between the FBs, the CMs and the WFs. So for instance Irwin can come into a Cancelo-style inside-left channel, Bernardo can peel wide into a LW position, Suarez can cut inside. Same on the right flank, where Trent can drop into the inside-right channel, KDB can pull wide, and Salah can cut inside. Football is a fluid game and it's the movement and interchanging that characterises the best teams - and is what kills the rigid defensive ones.

These figures aren't completely correct as Trent already has 12 in the league for 2021/22, and 17 in all competitions. That's 3 out of the top 4 seasons from a defender provided by Trent. Just to put that into context Skizzo's Cole had 19 assists in his entire 400-game Premier League career. A figure that Trent will quite possibly overtake in a single season.

At some point we have to acknowledge that the likes of Trent (and Robbo / Cancelo for that matter) are playing some extraordinary football and providing some serious end product that completely dwarfs what most of the traditional full-backs in the Premier League have been capable of producing. None of that is to say that those more traditional full-backs were not good players, and often more seasoned defenders, but few really contributed to the success of a team the way these guys do as the statistics plainly demonstrate.

Yep, the pictures that showed in my messages was latest updated in the matches against Everton. Today, it passes almost 3 months ahaha and Trent’s assists is gonna be higher and higher . I just want to show about Trent’s positional changing and developing.

 

[Skizzo]

For the recent talk of City players in the derby, we have a more recent example of TAA defensively which shows promise for us.

Inter making a triangle around him as he stands and barely makes any effort to get back. Granted it was a bad pass, but he watches the ball get played around with no urgency. Van Dijk’s effort to step out and assist wasn’t painting himself in glory either, but my point was mainly on TAA’s defensive lapses.

 

[Skizzo]

Finally bed time so I won’t be around for the last few hours. Good luck for the rest of the match @Gio

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Proper barn-burner of a contest this. Great quality of debate too. Well played @Skizzo and @Gio . Not voting as I've been performing a consigliere role for The Religion and frankly wouldn't fancy trying to seperate these two teams anyway.

Skizzo's reinforcements could have been custom-designed to face Gio's team. Few if any better than Drogba for that line-leading, one-man attack detail in a counter-attacking set up, and the same goes for Kante to disrupt the opposition's passing carousel. And while he never seems to make much of a dent in drafts, Lampard looks in his element here as a bona fide potential match-decider. Equally, VVD is as important an individual upgrade as Gio could have made for his system. Attacking-wise De Bruyne doesn't make quite as big an individual splash as I might have thought, largely due to that unit being so good anyway. I'm a big fan of Eric in that False 9 role, and keep coming back to his fruitful connection with Kanchelskis as an example of him linking up with a quicksilver and prolific wide forward. There was some lovely Cantona-orchestrated goals involving Irwin too

 

[Physiocrat]

Gio clearly has much better fire power (I really buy Cantona as a false 9). Drogba's general goal output was not that great nor consistent over consecutive seasons. That said he is perfectly suited to his role here and he was clearly a big game player. Creativity again is clearly in favour of of Gio. The question is whether he can break down the defence. Alonso will defend mostly on positioning and suits a low block - Kante and Lampard will put a shift in. Gio's best route to goal is clearly the Suarez Bernado left side against Wes Brown and Anderton - that said Brown was a natural defender and will be difficult to get past. If Gio scores first he wins I think. But sorry to go all one vs one but Giggs on Trent I think is where Skizzo can win this. Trent has defensive lapses and isn't covered as well by De Bruyne as he is by a more defensive wide shutter. So on the tightest on margins, I'm going with Skizzo.

 

[Gio]

Gio clearly has much better fire power (I really buy Cantona as a false 9). Drogba's general goal output was not that great nor consistent over consecutive seasons. That said he is perfectly suited to his role here and he was clearly a big game player. Creativity again is clearly in favour of of Gio. The question is whether he can break down the defence. Alonso will defend mostly on positioning and suits a low block - Kante and Lampard will put a shift in. Gio's best route to goal is clearly the Suarez Bernado left side against Wes Brown and Anderton - that said Brown was a natural defender and will be difficult to get past. If Gio scores first he wins I think. But sorry to go all one vs one but Giggs on Trent I think is where Skizzo can win this. Trent has defensive lapses and isn't covered as well by De Bruyne as he is by a more defensive wide shutter. So on the tightest on margins, I'm going with Skizzo.

All depends on the model to protect your attacking full-back. Liverpool this season play differently to how we are set up. In contrast, this is clearly a Pep-styled midfield. For example in Pep's Barcelona Xavi played the RCM role but hardly protected Dani Alves. Instead they had a full-time DM, a pair of CBs who could shuttle across, and exceptional quality on the ball. Let's look at each of those different elements in turn:

FULL-TIME DM WHO SPECIALISES IN STOPPING COUNTER ATTACKS IN CENTRAL AND RIGHT-SIDED AREAS
​

Here is a snapshot from halfway through this season where Rodri has been key in stopping any fast counter-attacks for 14-games in a row. That is 0 counter attacks across 14 games.

What's also remarkable is the area where he carries out his defensive actions with the majority of these in the right/central holding midfield area as the image shows below. That is just the area where Skizzo's main counter threat lies and where Rodri is particularly potent in intercepting and winning the ball back.

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So that's the tactical fit that supports our own team and which is custom designed for slowing down Skizzo's counters.

And he impresses on his own merits. Here the media collectively rank him as the top central midfielder in the Premier League in 21/22:

And you can see he's an impressive ball-winner, particularly in these areas where Giggs could pick up scraps, and an imposing physical unit who would also cut out a lot of the supply to Drogba.

 

[Gio]

ROLE OF VAN DIJK AND DIAS IN SQUEEZING OUT COUNTER-ATTACKING OPPORTUNITIES​

Van Dijk is the gold standard in holding a high line that forces the opposition onto the back foot. He is so influential on the overall shape of every game that he came 2nd in the Ballon D'Or in 2019 which is almost unchartered territory for a defender and a long way ahead of any other defender from the Premier League era. Similarly, Ruben Dias (along with Rodri) have resolved the troubles City faced in the centre of their defence a couple of years ago. He is one of only four defenders who have won the Premier League Player of the Year award. While Giggs offers a threat in behind, it's worth looking at how well Dias led the City backline to repel PSG's Mbappe and Neymar in last year's Champions League Semi-Final:

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Now Neymar and Mbappe especially offer even more goal threat, pace and directness than Giggs, and Dias produced a performance for the ages in that semi-final.

 

[General_Elegancia]

The poll is closed for 30 minutes but it’s draw and I’ve seen some great debates here. So, I give you more extra 12 hours to add more informations and debates then we will see it in later who will pass to final round.

@Gio @Skizzo

 

[General_Elegancia]

Finally bed time so I won’t be around for the last few hours. Good luck for the rest of the match @Gio

When you wake up, You will have an extra live to adding some of your informations, I give you extra 12 hours.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Two insanely good sides with a lot of things zo like so will just say what i dont like.

For GuarGiola i dont like Trent there, he is awful(for this level, poor for current one where he plays) defensive side and for someone who is great offensive wise isnt that special under pressure. He needs someone that will cover for him and while KDB and Bernardo are great defensive wise they are great at pressing not covering.

For skizzo as i said earlier, he needs wide forwards not wingers and while Giggs can make it work dont think Anderton can and ideally you would want someone quicker there to exploit gio side on the counter.

 

[General_Elegancia]

After 12 hours, when it's still 9-9 and draw.

"Draw will be decided by the number of draft titles you have, who has less wins. If you have the same the game goes to penalties"

-Sjor Bepo

 

[Physiocrat]

I think Gio won. Skizzo voted for himself but Gio didn't vote.

@General_Elegancia

 

[Šjor Bepo]

no idea whats general doing, bless him. But game lasts 24 hours which is more then enough so if the post above from physio is correct Guar @Gio la won.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Why did you delete your post @Skizzo ? Long maintained that the guy is a cheating piece of shit, does it every draft.

 

[Skizzo]

Why did you delete your post @Skizzo ? Long maintained that the guy is a cheating piece of shit, does it every draft.

I white texted it, so it was tongue in cheek, but I’ve gone down that road before and it’s not worth the draft drama to derail what’s been an otherwise very fun draft

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I white texted it, so it was tongue in cheek, but I’ve gone down that road before and it’s not worth the draft drama to derail what’s been an otherwise very fun draft

Fair enough.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Why did you delete your post @Skizzo ? Long maintained that the guy is a cheating piece of shit, does it every draft.

I white texted it, so it was tongue in cheek, but I’ve gone down that road before and it’s not worth the draft drama to derail what’s been an otherwise very fun draft

what happened

 

[crappycraperson]

Seems an odd one to object to. It's a fairly classic partnership - Cantona dropping into the hole, Suarez occupying and stretching the defenders ahead of him. Basically an upgrade on the Cantona/Cole partnership which served United well for much of the 1990s. Suarez's boundless energy and work-rate winning the ball back early, firing quick one-two's with the King, etc. As much of a one-man attack Suarez was for Liverpool, we also saw in Spain how brilliantly Suarez sparked off Messi who operated in a similar hole position.

First on Messi and Suarez, in the second iteration of Barca team once Pep left, the front three with Neymar Suarez and Messi, had the GOAT functioning much more as a right attacking midfielder/forward rather than pure 9 he played under Pep. Suarez played much more in the centre and up top rather than on the wings. Remember same being the case in Juve CL final too. It was Villa who during Pep's version of the team player the left forward role to maximise Messi's game. All of this is moot when it comes to Suarez in PL anyhow since he played as a proper centre forward for Liverpool.

On Cantona and Suarez, if it is a throw back to Cole and Eric then you might as well line them up in similar manner and not try to pass it off as Suarez cutting in from the left just because it makes the formation look like how City would line up. I guess my disconnect is that I see a difference in how Suarez played at his peak in PL than someone like Mane or Sterling who fit the mould of the kind of wide forwards Pep would deploy in his system. Not to mention if you are playing a proper forward on the left then Irwin is the wrong left back/wing back to play as well. Hence why I was also surprised when you picked Dennis ahead of Robertson.

Anyway you seemed to have pulled out the win so best of the luck for the final.

 

[crappycraperson]

Why did you delete your post @Skizzo ? Long maintained that the guy is a cheating piece of shit, does it every draft.

Draft Drama!! Spill! Spill! Spill!

 

[Skizzo]

what happened

Draft Drama!! Spill! Spill! Spill!

not sure I remember it verbatim, but it was something along the lines of

“Beaten at the last minute by a Theon vote for Gio in the only match he decided to vote on all draft, I smell a conspiracy
Kidding
Congrats Gio, enjoy your hollow victory
kidding again, great team (: GL in the final
thanks Sjor and GE for modding the draft!”

 

[Šjor Bepo]

theon aka lego gio

 

[harms]

not sure I remember it verbatim, but it was something along the lines of

“Beaten at the last minute by a Theon vote for Gio in the only match he decided to vote on all draft, I smell a conspiracy
Kidding
Congrats Gio, enjoy your hollow victory
kidding again, great team (: GL in the final
thanks Sjor and GE for modding the draft!”

Oh man, beaten at the last minute by a Theon vote for Gio on the only game he decided to vote on all draft, I smell a conspiracy.
Kidding
Congrats @Gio on your hollow victory
Kidding again. Great team (: GL in the final

Thanks @Šjor Bepo @General_Elegancia for modding the draft!

 

[General_Elegancia]

Congratulations to @Gio, excellent team

great work from @Skizzo, I appreciate your enormous efforts.

 

[Skizzo]

@harms flexing his powers! I managed to get pretty close to verbatim actually.

 

[TheReligion]

Lowkey flex

The poll is still open and I’m dropping votes

 

[Gio]

Why did you delete your post @Skizzo ? Long maintained that the guy is a cheating piece of shit, does it every draft.

Nah. I don't think that's fair. I've had people vote against me in tight / meaningful games 8 times in a row (including in this game, but whatever).

You know we've got a scenario here where Skizzo feels aggrieved he's lost and where, if I lost, I'd feel aggrieved. Go figure.

 

[Gio]

great work from @Skizzo, I appreciate your enormous efforts.

This. @Skizzo Enjoyed the debate - it was pretty exhausting truth be told - and you were a man after my own heart with that soak-and-break team.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Nah. I don't think that's fair. I've had people vote against me in tight / meaningful games 8 times in a row (including in this game, but whatever).

You know we've got a scenario here where Skizzo feels aggrieved he's lost and where, if I lost, I'd feel aggrieved. Go figure.

I have nothing against you or your win mate. Nor do I blame you anywhere. So this conversation is moot.

 

[crappycraperson]

What is happening? Why is the poll still open?

 

[Skizzo]

This. @Skizzo Enjoyed the debate - it was pretty exhausting truth be told - and you were a man after my own heart with that soak-and-break team.

There’s no hard feelings mate. As usual, you were the one draw I wanted to avoid end of the day these drafts are all in good fun, even if they do drive you insane at the same time.

edit: and just to confirm, there was white text in my post earlier, so I don’t ACTUALLY think it was a conspiracy

 

[Skizzo]

What is happening? Why is the poll still open?

 

[Gio]

I have nothing against you or your win mate. Nor do I blame you anywhere. So this conversation is moot.

Fair enough. But ahead of any tight draft game, you don't need to be Nostradamus to predict where some of the votes are going. Whether that's down to being aligned in how your view the game, subconsciously voting for something or someone, managers eyeing up the best players or not voting as they're happy to see a rival crash out, or down to having an agenda for or against certain posters, it all happens to some degree.

I just don't think it's right when we've got 18 votes on the table to assume that 17 are squeaky clean and 1 isn't. Probably all 18 are tainted by some sort of bias. Because we've all got agendas we try to bury away but, with the confrontational style of debate, bubble to the surface every now and then.

The problem, in my view, is that there are too few voters which intensifies the competition for individual votes and, with the confrontational style of every game, everyone gets embittered in defeat. Without quoting people directly, we've had multiple comments in just the last week alone from managers effectively feeling they've been shafted by the voters. We didn't really have these problems in the mains because there were more voters. The only scapegoat there was the dreaded scan voter.