Premier League Gameweek 12

DomesticTadpole

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This is the problem with hypotheticals I guess, hard to know, but Giggs never showed the propensity to score 20 league goals in a season howevever good a finisher he was, in that 98/99 season he scored 3 goals in the league, didn't make PFA team of the year etc. Different setups, different times and his main role was to create.
He didn't need to score 20 goals. We had Yorke, Cole, Sheringham and Ole. We had Paul Scholes.
 

Cassidy

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This is the problem with hypotheticals I guess, hard to know, but Giggs never showed the propensity to score 20 league goals in a season howevever good a finisher he was, in that 98/99 season he scored 3 goals in the league, didn't make PFA team of the year etc. Different setups, different times and his main role was to create.
He was never in a side to score goals, his job was to make them. I think his best goalscoring season was 13 league goals. In todays game however wingers are expected to score more and thy get into more goalscoring positions than wingers of old. In that setup I don't see why he wouldn't score 20 in a season given his ability.

So yes it is hypothetical which is why I said in my opinion

I said the same about Robert Pires a while back another player that I feel in this setup and age would be better than Mane and Salah but its just opinions really
 

Cassidy

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Yep so how do you deduce who is better, I actually think it isn't a worthwhile argument now I've gone into it, :lol:similar positions diffferent roles
Its just opinions.

I look at the players raw abilities and judge on that.
 

Lynty

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Assuming we played the same style we did then maybe yes, but if that team then existed now, I think it would be better (as obviously they would adjust to the new style of todays game)
Ye given 6 months prep time and enough time to condition their bodies, they'd likely be better as '99 had more talent.

How old are you?
30s

This Liverpool team almost lost to the "worst Man United team" in the last 20 years. I don't know if you were around in 99, but that team would make Salah and Firmino cry.
Silly post. Did United 99 win ever game?

I think that the 07/08 United team would be a better match for City & Liverpool's current sides. Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Ronaldo, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, VDS. All elite players who would match up to whatever the best is in the league right now.
Agreed.
 

Bulldog United

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Anyone who suggests this current Liverpool team is better than the class of '92 is quite frankly deluded beyond all help. They have still yet to win a league title, they fluked a champions league, and have won a bunch of friendly cup competitions nobody cares about. Jog on.

If in the next ten years they have dominated English football, then we can have a conversation.
 

SteveJ

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Standing on the shoulder of giants :smirk:
Yeah but I also meant each successive culture is informed by the past; in this case, football culture. So, modern-day players benefit from the experiences of past players, and from the scientific improvements of the present.
 

Lynty

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Anyone who suggests this current Liverpool team is better than the class of '92 is quite frankly deluded beyond all help. They have still yet to win a league title, they fluked a champions league, and have won a bunch of friendly cup competitions nobody cares about. Jog on.

If in the next ten years they have dominated English football, then we can have a conversation.
You haven't read the arguments at all. The point of titles and cups has already been discussed.

I myself think people are deluded who think a midfield of Scholes and Keane would be a match for De Bruyne, Silva and any third.
 

Denis' cuff

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You haven't read the arguments at all. The point of titles and cups has already been discussed.

I myself think people are deluded who think a midfield of Scholes and Keane would be a match for De Bruyne, Silva and any third.

Bit of an odd statement considering Scholes and Keane had the runs on the board which the other two have yet to emulate. Still, all opinions, I suppose.
 

Halds

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But that's a bit of a pointless comparison. If we insist on comparing teams from different eras, then it has to be done on the basis of their achievements. United's two best teams won three league titles in a row plus a Champions League each. Liverpool have yet to win the league once. Until then... nope. Guardiola's City can be in the discussion, Liverpool not yet.
Basically this.. It may be true, that the game has evolved physically and tactically, and maybe we could beat them if we had a time machine, who knows? But to be considered equal to the great United teams, we need to win more major trophies, no doubt about that.
 

Renegade

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This is the problem with hypotheticals I guess, hard to know, but Giggs never showed the propensity to score 20 league goals in a season howevever good a finisher he was, in that 98/99 season he scored 3 goals in the league, didn't make PFA team of the year etc. Different setups, different times and his main role was to create.
Difficult to compare but I don’t see Salah and Mane hitting their goal totals playing wide in a 442 against defensive fullbacks with there own defensive responsibilities.

you think a young Ryan Giggs wouldn’t be banging them in and terrorising these modern attacking fullbacks in a forward 3?
 

That_Bloke

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Anyone who suggests this current Liverpool team is better than the class of '92 is quite frankly deluded beyond all help. They have still yet to win a league title, they fluked a champions league, and have won a bunch of friendly cup competitions nobody cares about. Jog on.

If in the next ten years they have dominated English football, then we can have a conversation.
You can't fluke a Champions League, you just can't.

It's the toughest tournament in the world, one every professional footballer dreams to win, not the Carabao Cup. The league is pretty much theirs to lose this season, but the comparison with the class of '92 is pointless.
 

Harry190

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One of the three greatest club teams in history wouldn't be able to cope with this Liverpool team. Is this real life?
 

giorno

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You can't fluke a Champions League, you just can't.
History says you can actually...depending on your definition of fluke. Stuff like Istanbul, chelsea-barcelona/bayern, roma-wolfsburg-city road to the final.....
 

Klopper76

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This is making me laugh more than it should.

 

TheReligion

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Has the standard really improved across the board in the premier league from years gone by? Defending certainly hasn't in my opinion. The old United teams of 99 and 08 would be making mince meat of this league with all the talent. Giggs, Scholes, Cole, Yorke, Beckham, Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo. I think even some of the teams we had between that would do damage.

The argument is daft anyway. You can only measure it by previous success and on that level the current Liverpool side has a long way to go. Same for City.
 

That_Bloke

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History says you can actually...depending on your definition of fluke. Stuff like Istanbul, chelsea-barcelona/bayern, roma-wolfsburg-city road to the final.....
Of course you can have a bit of luck in one game or two, it's part of any competition, but you can't just fluke your way from the group stages to the final and then win it. It's absurd. I know they're not much liked but there's a limit to the bias.
 

Sandikan

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This is the problem with hypotheticals I guess, hard to know, but Giggs never showed the propensity to score 20 league goals in a season howevever good a finisher he was, in that 98/99 season he scored 3 goals in the league, didn't make PFA team of the year etc. Different setups, different times and his main role was to create.
You have to compare apples to apples.

How do we think Salah would have performed as either a left winger in a 4-4-2 or an out and out striker in that system?
Most likely nowhere near as good as he does in this role. Especially in an era there were loads of actual quality defenders.

Giggs has rightly gone down as the all time top left winger in Premier league history.
Let's see how Salah (and Mane) are remembered in 10-15 years. Will genuinely be interesting, as people love to hype up the "Now".
 

Infordin

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The biggest myth in football today is the idea that Liverpool's midfield is average.
 

CognitiveNeuro

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It's true. This Liverpool team (and City team) would beat any Man United team.

The levels of fitness, nutrition, tactical knowledge, training methods (like spatial awareness and making perfect decisions in split seconds for Liverpool especially), is vastly superior now. The psychological aspect also has moved leaps and bounds ahead.

The amount of running Mane Robertson TAA Henderson Wijnaldum etc do now is ridiculous compared to back then. They would open up so much space and run rings around United alone, ignoring technical skill, or tactics etc.

It's really unfair to compare the two because football has progressed so much since then. It's like comparing a 90s United team to a 70s Liverpool team.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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The biggest myth in football today is the idea that Liverpool's midfield is average.
They work extremely well as a collective unit. Their midfield is probably the weakest part of their team(considering their great front 3 and great back 4), but it punches above its weight.

Credit to Klopp.
 

Dancfc

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The biggest myth in football today is the idea that Liverpool's midfield is average.
Klopp has them as players using their energy to get around the pitch allowing freedom for the fullbacks and it really works for them, so in that sense I agree it's harsh calling them average but there's also the sense of if (hypothetically speaking) Klopp walked in May and his successor is someone who values midfield domination on the ball as a first priority would he be happy with those options? In my opinion, absolutely not.

Could you imagine a Pep or Sarri (Lampard even) rolling with that midfield? Both would look at all of them with the exception of Fabinho and would want/need instant upgrades for their football.
 

Prometheus

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It's true. This Liverpool team (and City team) would beat any Man United team.

The levels of fitness, nutrition, tactical knowledge, training methods (like spatial awareness and making perfect decisions in split seconds for Liverpool especially), is vastly superior now. The psychological aspect also has moved leaps and bounds ahead.

The amount of running Mane Robertson TAA Henderson Wijnaldum etc do now is ridiculous compared to back then. They would open up so much space and run rings around United alone, ignoring technical skill, or tactics etc.

It's really unfair to compare the two because football has progressed so much since then. It's like comparing a 90s United team to a 70s Liverpool team.
What are you basing this all on? I mean there have been some changes in terms of tactics and improvements across the league I reckon, but at the highest level it may been diminishing returns. We're talking about 1999, not 1959.
 

SteveJ

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Um...the whole point of these hypothetical, imaginary match-ups is that both teams should have access to modern advantages, or that both should be restricted to past 'disadvantages'; otherwise, the very idea of a match-up is entirely unfair to one of the teams, and also nonsensical.
 

Bulldog United

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You haven't read the arguments at all. The point of titles and cups has already been discussed.

I myself think people are deluded who think a midfield of Scholes and Keane would be a match for De Bruyne, Silva and any third.
I was speaking about the current Liverpool team against our great team. I'm not sure why you are entering De Bruyne and Silva into it.

It is fair to say I haven't read every page of this 50 page thread, so if I repeated others arguments then I'll take that as some kind of validation for my POV. :D

You can't fluke a Champions League, you just can't.

It's the toughest tournament in the world, one every professional footballer dreams to win, not the Carabao Cup. The league is pretty much theirs to lose this season, but the comparison with the class of '92 is pointless.
Liverpool had a remarkable run of good fortune getting to the semifinals, then the miracle against Barcelona was luck as much as skill. How Barcelona failed to score in that second leg I'll never know. That result was outrageously fortunate for Liverpool. Then in the final they get that ludicrous penalty decision right away, played like crap for most of the rest of the match, and sneaked a late second. Playing Tottenham, perennial bottlers, in a Champions League final is also pretty damn lucky in itself.

Am I bitter? Yes. :D
 

Infordin

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Could you imagine a Pep or Sarri (Lampard even) rolling with that midfield? Both would look at all of them with the exception of Fabinho and would want/need instant upgrades for their football
Pep would love Wijnaldum and all that ball retention.
 

Fussball13251

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Pep would love Wijnaldum and all that ball retention.
Pep would love to have Salah, Mane, Fabinho, Trent & Roberson.

Then of course you have the rest - Virgil van Dijk, etc.

When was the last time Liverpool lost? In the league they are on some massive no loss streak that stretches back to last season. They might be breaking records.

This Liverpool team is a pain for Pep.

If he reaches a 3rd CL final in a trot... even if you dislike Liverpool he has to go down as 1 of the best managers in the history of the premier league. They can still do the double, or even the treble.
 
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Vault Dweller

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It's true. This Liverpool team (and City team) would beat any Man United team.

The levels of fitness, nutrition, tactical knowledge, training methods (like spatial awareness and making perfect decisions in split seconds for Liverpool especially), is vastly superior now. The psychological aspect also has moved leaps and bounds ahead.

The amount of running Mane Robertson TAA Henderson Wijnaldum etc do now is ridiculous compared to back then. They would open up so much space and run rings around United alone, ignoring technical skill, or tactics etc.

It's really unfair to compare the two because football has progressed so much since then. It's like comparing a 90s United team to a 70s Liverpool team.
It’s certainly not true.
 

giorno

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Could you imagine a Pep or Sarri (Lampard even) rolling with that midfield? Both would look at all of them with the exception of Fabinho and would want/need instant upgrades for their football.
Sarri? The one who sees Matuidi and Khedira as untouchable now at juventus?

Also Lampard? His chelsea us gegenpressing on steroids

Guardiola i imagine would make it work in much the same way Klopp did. Liverpool average 58% possession to City's 60% in the league. So keeping and moving the ball isn't an issue for them, clearly
 
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Water Melon

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Liverpool are simply awesome. There is so much to admire about this sensational team. Dare I say that this team is better than any Man Utd team in the Premier League era.

A likeable bunch of players, too, in addition to an exceptional and charismatic manager.

It makes it that bit less painful to see them win all the time, and inevitably win the league.
This fecker must be a scouse supporter in a WUM-mode. Can we feck him off, so that he can enjoy the company of other deluded bin-dippers.
 

robinamicrowave

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The biggest myth in football today is the idea that Liverpool's midfield is average.
One day the penny will drop for the media/public at large that there's a pretty obvious link between Liverpool's "average" midfield and their world-class fullbacks.
 

TheOx

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The biggest myth in football today is the idea that Liverpool's midfield is average.
It's because Henderson is the captain, and of course a regular starter and some people will never rate him. Even Liverpool fans mostly don't.
But as most said, they work so well as an unit, and that was shown pretty well against City. Gini had his best game for us so far in the season, probably, and is having one of the best seasons of his life (club and NT). Fabinho scored and Henderson assisted.
 

Rajiztar

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Klopp has them as players using their energy to get around the pitch allowing freedom for the fullbacks and it really works for them, so in that sense I agree it's harsh calling them average but there's also the sense of if (hypothetically speaking) Klopp walked in May and his successor is someone who values midfield domination on the ball as a first priority would he be happy with those options? In my opinion, absolutely not.

Could you imagine a Pep or Sarri (Lampard even) rolling with that midfield? Both would look at all of them with the exception of Fabinho and would want/need instant upgrades for their football.
To be fair to Lampard he gets performance from kovacic and jorginho week in week out.They were struggled to impress last season under Sarri. Kovacic mostly not even finished whole game last season. May be bedding period in new league was the reason for their struggle.

Come to Liverpool midfield,they are not full of superstars but they do work hard and make the team tick. Sheilding their defense with numbers and chipping in goals whenever their forward players struggled to get going .
 
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