Premier League Referees

SirAnderson

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What's it going to take to rid the league from the litany of errors every single week in the PL?

The standard is absolutely terrible in comparison to the rest of the big 5 leagues. (imo)

Clearly VAR hasn't come in and solved it, and one can argue it has just worsened it, as the mindset adopted by the PL is more to protect the refs than actually correct the game as so aptly pointed out by said poster:

VAR in England is implemented to protect the referees on-pitch decision, not to secure the right decision.
Even in South Africa, when there are clear bad decisions, refs are suspended or given some kind of disciplinary action, surely in the "biggest" league in the world, they can't keep getting away with some of the blatantly bad decision we see week in week out.

What, if anything, can be done to pressure the league to change it's approach to VAR and/or move from trying to protect bad referee decisions?
 

Kag

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The standard of officiating at the moment is absolutely atrocious.

Technology isn’t the issue; it’s the chimps in charge of operating it.
 

Mike Smalling

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All kidding aside, that performance in Spurs vs. Liverpool is one of the worst in recent memory. Liverpool can feel pretty hard done by. No chance Spurs get a draw if Kane is sent off in the first half.
 

arnie_ni

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Nearly every game there is a decision that make you go what the feck! It's shocking
 

Cheech Wizard

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Shocking standard right now. It’s like they’ve heard all the moaning of the usage of VAR from last season and the time it takes to go to the sideline the referees are either too arrogant or feel embarrassed to change their mind.

They only feel obliged to use it if they are made a wrong call earlier in the game or there was a similar controversy in another game on the same weekend or before.
 

SirAnderson

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Nearly every game there is a decision that make you go what the feck! It's shocking
Exactly this, there is constant controversy and there is barely a game where both sides can honestly claim the ref had a good came. Handbags aside as there are usually always moaning from both sides on grey-ish decisions.
 

Gazza

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List of PL referees here

Off the top of my head, Atkinson, Marriner, and Moss are usually poor.
 

Gazza

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You forgot the one eyed king of the blind, Mike Dean
See, I don't mind Mike Dean. His inflated sense of self-importance and the overt awareness that he is on camera don't necessarily make him a bad ref. I know I'm in the minority though!
 

11101

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I said early on referees in this country will see VAR as a threat and misuse it purposely, and I stand by that.
 

yumtum

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So who would people say the best ref is?
That's like asking who the best dictator is/was.

More appropriate question would be: so who would people say is the least incompetent ref?
 

hellhunter

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See, I don't mind Mike Dean. His inflated sense of self-importance and the overt awareness that he is on camera don't necessarily make him a bad ref. I know I'm in the minority though!
He's not consistently shit, agreed, but he has terrible performances in him. Similar Michael Oliver.
 

Sigma

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Should the second for Liverpool have stood?
Yes.

"The second change is on accidental handball in the immediate build-up to a goal.

If an attacking player’s accidental handball immediately precedes another player scoring, the goal will now be awarded, when last season it was likely to have been ruled out.

However, a player will still be penalised if he commits an accidental handball immediately before scoring himself."

https://www.premierleague.com/news/2204759
 

Mb194dc

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Don't get the complaints, Spurs been refereed like this for ages, Kane is above the law pretty much. Also first red for Liverpool for two years... :lol:

Standard.
 

padr81

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I'm all for the VAR but they've went from overuse last season to the worst of both worlds this season. Refs aren't giving decisions because they feel VAR will and VAR won't give them because they don't want to overrule the ref. In the last 4 games I've watched.

  1. City denied stonewall peno vs Wolves for handball - var backs ref.
  2. City given penalty that was never a penalty for handball - var backs the ref.
  3. Newcastle denied stonewall peno vs City, var backs the ref.
  4. Kane gets yellow for clear red - var backs the ref.
  5. Liverpool denied penalty for push - var backs ref.
  6. Spurs denied penalty for Matip jumping on dude - coulda been outside the box, not sure but var backs ref who did nothing,
  7. Alli made the most of it but Robertson clearly has hands on his back - var backs the ref (I agree with this),
  8. Robertson kicks a dude, ref gives yellow - VAR finally gets a decision correct.
Thats 1 correct decision maybe 2 of 8 in 3 games between 2 title chasing teams. This shit can't go on. I left out some of the stupid decisions in City vs Leeds because it was just a murdering.
Thats not including the constant handball changes ruining games, and Liverpools equaliser while a man was on the ground injured vs Newcastle.
 

Annihilate Now!

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The big issue for me is this "clear and obvious" nonsense... Why not just rely on opinion? Did second ref think something different to the ref? Well then review it... Would make it much easier then having to satisfy this imaginary bar that differs from game to game.
 

Swedish_Plumber

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Yes.

"The second change is on accidental handball in the immediate build-up to a goal.

If an attacking player’s accidental handball immediately precedes another player scoring, the goal will now be awarded, when last season it was likely to have been ruled out.

However, a player will still be penalised if he commits an accidental handball immediately before scoring himself."

https://www.premierleague.com/news/2204759
I get that it’s used to the letter of the law, the letter.

But common sense would see that goal and salahs handball in the build up as an infringement that directly contributed to a side taking the lead.

Who’s to say without that touch on his hand Lloris doesn’t dive to clear and instead makes a better contact/catches it?

They just seem to take some things really literally in one instance and then it swings the complete opposite direction the next!

Mic them up and have them explain controversial decisions post match.
 

AndySmith1990

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There's no consistency. I mean a rule is a rule, and these guys are supposed to be the best refs in the country, you'd think they would know the rules well enough to apply them consistently across the board. They even have the benefit of video replays yet still manage to muck it up.

In any other line of work you have meetings to review the performance of yourself and your peers, and any decent organisation will identify issues and come up with actions to improve
Doesn't seem to be a bit of this going on with referees in football. You have yo wonder if there's any accountability or they're all so sensitive they simply avoid any form of critical reflection and pretend they're doing a good job.
 

Withnail

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I get that it’s used to the letter of the law, the letter.

But common sense would see that goal and salahs handball in the build up as an infringement that directly contributed to a side taking the lead.

Who’s to say without that touch on his hand Lloris doesn’t dive to clear and instead makes a better contact/catches it?

They just seem to take some things really literally in one instance and then it swings the complete opposite direction the next!

Mic them up and have them explain controversial decisions post match.
It was deemed accidental handball and he wasn't the scorer so it's not an offence. What is the common sense that would add a different interpretation? Unless you want the rules themselves changed do you?
 

Swedish_Plumber

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It was deemed accidental handball and he wasn't the scorer so it's not an offence. What is the common sense that would add a different interpretation? Unless you want the rules themselves changed do you?
His accidental handball has directly effected a key player in preventing the goal.
Not sure whether it’s accidental or not should matter if that’s the case.

It’s not like the ball has been blasted at salah from close range by a spurs player and his hands are in at his side. He’s fluffed a headed chance onto his arm and forced a poor clearance from the GK.

My main point was about common sense in general around decisions. Last season when we had that goal disallowed against spurs for the hand to the face is another where the rules are read out as an easy excuse for an insanely poor decision. It’s why I’ve said we need them explaining the process so they can be held accountable in tv studios and social media.
 

11101

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List of PL referees here

Off the top of my head, Atkinson, Marriner, and Moss are usually poor.
Atkinson has long been the worst but you missed Dean off that list. He's always trying to be top dog in any environment.

I don't think Moss is especially bad for the first 60 mins or so, at least until his body shuts his eyes off because its so busy pumping oxygen to his fat, bloated gut.
 

Amar__

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Ever since VAR was introduced in England it's been quite clear that the referees are boycotting it and it takes them really a lot to change initial decision by a ref.

Once referees in VAR rooms start getting fines for their (lack of) decisions the refereeing will become better.
 

Withnail

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His accidental handball has directly effected a key player in preventing the goal.
Not sure whether it’s accidental or not should matter if that’s the case.

It’s not like the ball has been blasted at salah from close range by a spurs player and his hands are in at his side. He’s fluffed a headed chance onto his arm and forced a poor clearance from the GK.

My main point was about common sense in general around decisions. Last season when we had that goal disallowed against spurs for the hand to the face is another where the rules are read out as an easy excuse for an insanely poor decision. It’s why I’ve said we need them explaining the process so they can be held accountable in tv studios and social media.
I don't get you at all in relation to this incident, I'm afraid. The rules are that if it's accidental handball from an attacker then it isn't an offence, unless he then scores. That is all that the conversation would be about. They aren't going to go into any kind of discussion about whether or not the accidental handball affected anything else. The rule is clear in this instance so I'm not sure what your suggestion would add.

In general, I do think it would be helpful if we could hear the discussion between VAR and on-field ref.
 

Yorke to Cole

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The big issue for me is this "clear and obvious" nonsense... Why not just rely on opinion? Did second ref think something different to the ref? Well then review it... Would make it much easier then having to satisfy this imaginary bar that differs from game to game.
"Clear and obvious" is subjective in itself. What is deemed "clear and obvious" to a referee on the pitch may not be apparent to the person on VAR duties. Therefore, this particular ruling is going to invite inconsistencies in decision making.

In terms of refereeing on the pitch, I have paid attention to the physicalicogical attributes of our referees. I do not like criticise anyone's physical appearance but I have watched a lot of Serie A and referees such as Maurizio Mariani, Daniele Orsato, Massimiliano Irrati and Rosario Abisso look so much fitter. They are always within a close proximity to make important decisions when needed.

I feel that they are trained to a higher standard and are therefore more equipped to make the game flow better without controversy.
 

Beachryan

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Being a referee is extraordinarily difficult. If technology can make their lives easier, than it should be implemented as seamlessly as possible.

In theory, VAR should help referees, because they know that their immediate reaction isn't gospel. My dad was a ref at a high level, and he's the first person to acknowledge that he was wrong a great deal of times. And he didn't have multiple angles and recordings. He loves the idea of taking another look, or letting another of your team let you know it's wrong.

But it's the English interpretation of it that is the issue. VAR doesn't appear designed to make the right decision, rather to ensure the referees don't massively screw up.

As Hoddle said after today's match - it would take a ref no more than 1 minute to get to the sideline screen and review anything. And really, no-one would complain if they did.
 

Meino

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These guys have been outdated for 10 years now.
I can assure you Moss/Taylor/Tierney/Marriner etc would not have refereed a match in any other countrys top league.
It has got to do with the good 'ol British hierarchy fetish, cannot imagine anything else.
One would think that VAR would fix the problem but then you throw the same utter garbage refs in the VAR bus, so not really much better?
 

90 + 5min

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What's it going to take to rid the league from the litany of errors every single week in the PL?

The standard is absolutely terrible in comparison to the rest of the big 5 leagues. (imo)

Clearly VAR hasn't come in and solved it, and one can argue it has just worsened it, as the mindset adopted by the PL is more to protect the refs than actually correct the game as so aptly pointed out by said poster:



Even in South Africa, when there are clear bad decisions, refs are suspended or given some kind of disciplinary action, surely in the "biggest" league in the world, they can't keep getting away with some of the blatantly bad decision we see week in week out.

What, if anything, can be done to pressure the league to change it's approach to VAR and/or move from trying to protect bad referee decisions?
1. After every game there should be post match inteview for explenation
2. Mic On for audience
3. Suspension
4. Degrade to League 1/2/Championship
5. VAR and those in charge of referee appointment should be done by someone other then their buddies.
6. VAR should be transparent and every word said there should be heard by people in stadiums and in front of tv.
 

Tragically Hip

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They are being aided by the match commentators too. When Ederson bundled over Fraser, they kept repeating that Fraser wasn't near enough the ball as if you can just trip anyone anytime you kike if they're not near the ball.
 

DeGea

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If the refs are consistently bad despite VAR, why are we not raising the possibility of bias/corruption? I mean, if Sepp Blatter who was on waaaay more money could fall prey to corruption, why not Premier League referees?
 

SirAnderson

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If the refs are consistently bad despite VAR, why are we not raising the possibility of bias/corruption?
Tbf they pretty consistently shite all across the board. Of course each fan will say a certain club gets more decision for them, but from how I see it, they just incompetent and useless regardless of who's playing.
Unless there is an underground betting ring for Refs :smirk:
 

Ole'sgunnarwin

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Can anyone explain to me why Kane's challenge wasn't looked at? I can't think of any reason.
 

SER19

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There's been a consistent decline. They're appalling.
 

DeGea

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They should also mic up the referees like in rugby, so that we can hear the discussion between them and VAR. I do not like this lack of transparency from referees in football.