Progression or league position?

[davidmichael]

Just seen this from Gary Neville,

http://www.skysports.com/share/11811959

Personally I don’t agree with him as I think our league position at the end of this season basically shapes where we'll be going forward, another season out of the Champions League and Adidas cut their sponsorship money as well as us most likely missing out on our top transfer targets and you can pretty much guarantee that Pogba will be off too.

 

[AshRK]

I vividly remember there was a thread two years back asking results or better brand of football. Good results brings more confidence and brings progression. This whole notion of I will be happy with finishing 6th but that would be fine as long as we play good football is fine is bs.

 

[Hawks2008]

The precedent has already been set, managers get sacked when they fail to get a CL place. I don't think we can afford to miss CL for consecutive seasons.

 

[sunama]

Winning games (and league position) is what matters to me.
Everything else is secondary.

 

[charlenefan]

I vividly remember there was a thread two years back asking results or better brand of football. Good results brings more confidence and brings progression. This whole notion of I will be happy with finishing 6th but that would be fine as long as we play good football is fine is bs.

Not necessarily, we finished 2nd under Mourinho which was most certainly progression but no one ended that season feeling confident

What is true though is a better football will naturally bring results which in turn brings confidence which in turn brings progression

 

[AJ10]

Both?

 

[AshRK]

Not necessarily, we finished 2nd under Mourinho which was most certainly progression but no one ended that season feeling confident

What is true though is a better football will naturally bring results which in turn brings confidence which in turn brings progression

I have seen many times during sir alex times when he focused on getting those 3 points rather than giving too much importance to entertain people. I remember after getting thrashed 6-1 to city we went on win our next some games 1-0 and played some rigid football. Once results start coming football also becomes good to watch. For example, one could see this week against Leicester the team was more interested in getting those 3 points and build the confidence. Of course it is very much possible to achieve both.

 

[noodlehair]

I would take good football and missing top four if I could actually see the progress and direction we're going in.

In reality though it will be a lot harder to convince people we're going in the right direction if we miss out on top four...and the mood on here would be horribly grim.

 

[romufc]

Good results brings more confidence and brings progression.

Jose finished 2nd and you only do that with good results however; there was no progression.

However; In my view if you are playing good football (progression) top 4 should not be hard.

So anything outside top 4 is not acceptable.

 

[Tarrou]

Progress

I want to win to be good enough to win the UCL not just qualify for it every year

We'll never get there without progress

 

[Matt007a]

Tricky one to answer. If I felt like we were on the right track with recruitment and style of play but finished outside the top 4, I think I'd be pretty split really.

The danger is that missing out on the CL again makes it more difficult to attract players. If qualifying for the CL had no influence on who would want to join us, I would accept another season in 5th or 6th, as long as we continued signing the right people and playing the right way. Obviously I would be expecting a top 4 finish next season as proof of that progress working.

 

[AshRK]

Jose finished 2nd and you only do that with good results however; there was no progression.

However; In my view if you are playing good football (progression) top 4 should not be hard.

So anything outside top 4 is not acceptable.

To be fair we looked a decent side in the first half of the season and looked much confident. The August September period was probably the best since sir alex retired. The second half was a totally different story. We looked like a side who lacked little motivation to win matches. I know city were always going to win the league but had our team remain consistent and Jose did not start moaning and whining we could have ended the season closer to 90 points.

 

[Random Task]

I've resigned myself to the fact that a title challenge is well beyond our current squad's capabilities (by some distance if we're honest) so I'd be content with a clear sign of progress. CL football would be a nice bonus, but it's not a necessity.

For example Martial, Rashford, AWB, Maguire, Shaw, James, Mctominay and Pogba improving in all aspects of their game, both individually and as a unit. Would be nice to see Greenwood become a first-team regular, with Gomes and Garner being slowly integrated.

 

[El Zoido]

He’s right. The idea that we just absolutely must be in the CL ever season at any cost is nonsense. Spurs weren’t always qualifying and they moved up, Liverpool had seasons finishing 7th and 8th and they developed in to probable title winners. Arsenal qualified every season for years and were just treading water. This “CL at any cost” attitude is why we ended up with crap like Di Maria and Sanchez. Top players would much rather join a good team who play with a consistent style and visible football philosophy, than join a dysfunctional mess that’s desperately clinging on to a top four position. It’s crazy how little some people have learned from the past 6 years.

 

[Skills]

Both if you're given the money our managers get.

This is a valid choice for Bournemouth not Manchester united

 

[noodlehair]

I have seen many times during sir alex times when he focused on getting those 3 points rather than giving too much importance to entertain people. I remember after getting thrashed 6-1 to city we went on win our next some games 1-0 and played some rigid football. Once results start coming football also becomes good to watch. For example, one could see this week against Leicester the team was more interested in getting those 3 points and build the confidence. Of course it is very much possible to achieve both.

I think that's a bit different though. SAF was doing that from a position of strength. He already had a team capable of winning so would just tweak things in certain situations and only had to worry about how to win one game from the next. He was making those decisions to try and win trophies in the there and then.

This team needs to build up to being at that level in the first place so winning the next game isn't always going to be the priority over where we want the team to be in a year or three year's time. If its a choice between digging out some ugly results to ultimately achieve nothing anyway, or losing a few more games to actually achieve something further down the line, it's an easy choice.

 

[el3mel]

Never know we can progress if we're finishing 6th or 8th. Progressing and finishing high in the table are both equivalent.

 

[Skills]

He’s right. The idea that we just absolutely must be in the CL ever season at any cost is nonsense. Spurs weren’t always qualifying and they moved up, Liverpool had seasons finishing 7th and 8th and they developed in to probable title winners. Arsenal qualified every season for years and were just treading water. This “CL at any cost” attitude is why we ended up with crap like Di Maria and Sanchez. Top players would much rather join a good team who play with a consistent style and visible football philosophy, than join a dysfunctional mess that’s desperately clinging on to a top four position. It’s crazy how little some people have learned from the past 6 years.

Liverpool have got top in every single one of Klopps full seasons. Only time they missed out was when he took over after Brendan like Ole did Last season.

 

[Random Task]

Not necessarily, we finished 2nd under Mourinho which was most certainly progression but no one ended that season feeling confident

What is true though is a better football will naturally bring results which in turn brings confidence which in turn brings progression

Was thinking the same thing. I recall the squad showing similar 'progression' under LVG when we went on a run beating Liverpool, City and I think Spurs and many of us believed it had all fallen into place.

Just too many false dawns in the post-SAF era for my liking. This time around I want to see something a little more concrete.

 

[AshRK]

I think that's a bit different though. SAF was doing that from a position of strength. He already had a team capable of winning so would just tweak things in certain situations and only had to worry about how to win one game from the next. He was making those decisions to try and win trophies in the there and then.

This team needs to build up to being at that level in the first place so winning the next game isn't always going to be the priority over where we want the team to be in a year or three year's time. If its a choice between digging out some ugly results to ultimately achieve nothing anyway, or losing a few more games to actually achieve something further down the line, it's an easy choice.

As painful as it may sound but this season finishing top 4 is like winning a trophy for us and Ole recognizes that. Ole may not be happy with the Leicester's performance but he realises he would not even remain at this job if the club don't finish in top 4. I thought we played much better against Wolves and Palace than against us Leicester but did not get the desired result, not because we played better football. Maybe as we start getting those 3 points more frequently we will start playing more expansive football. This is where I think Europa can actually help him. Getting some 4-0 and 5-0s against the likes of Astana may bring more confidence to the players and to the fans.

 

[charlenefan]

As painful as it may sound but this season finishing top 4 is like winning a trophy for us and Ole recognizes that. Ole may not be happy with the Leicester's performance but he realises he would not even remain at this job if the club don't finish in top 4. I thought we played much better against Wolves and Palace than against us Leicester but did not get the desired result, not because we played better football. Maybe as we start getting those 3 points more frequently we will start playing more expansive football. This is where I think Europa can actually help him. Getting some 4-0 and 5-0s against the likes of Astana may bring more confidence to the players and to the fans.

You dont know that

 

[Skills]

I'd say if the fans want their beloved managers to get all the resources they want with 0 accountability, they need to put their money where their mouths are.

They need to be willing to subsidise the club for its loss of income - from not having CL football income + not meeting the clauses in the clubs commercial deals (i.e. 20% cut in the Adidas deal). They should be happy to pay for increased season ticket prices just so the manager continues to get backed even if he fails to deliver.

Inevitably, what you'll actually see after 2 seasons without CL football is a smaller demand for season tickets instead. So the club will have even less money to spend next season.

Why is this always only a choice for us? Why do clubs who have less resources, spend less money than us not have to constantly choose between attacking football, performances or progress?

 

[Ish]

I would take good football and missing top four if I could actually see the progress and direction we're going in.

In reality though it will be a lot harder to convince people we're going in the right direction if we miss out on top four...and the mood on here would be horribly grim.

This.

All else being equal, progression > position. We could finish 3rd, in a non-sustainable way, which would mean another sacked manager next season when the wheels come off and potentially another squad overhaul which could set us back another 2-5 years.

Ideally, you’d want both, of course.

 

[Ekeke]

Both. We're not paying peanuts here, the money is high because the standards are high

 

[Skills]

As painful as it may sound but this season finishing top 4 is like winning a trophy for us and Ole recognizes that. Ole may not be happy with the Leicester's performance but he realises he would not even remain at this job if the club don't finish in top 4. I thought we played much better against Wolves and Palace than against us Leicester but did not get the desired result, not because we played better football. Maybe as we start getting those 3 points more frequently we will start playing more expansive football. This is where I think Europa can actually help him. Getting some 4-0 and 5-0s against the likes of Astana may bring more confidence to the players and to the fans.

Mostly because we have a manager way out of his depth.

 

[stepic]

league position is pointless if we're not progressing as a team. we have Jose's 2nd place as a perfect example of this.

progression every time. progression will result in league position.

 

[kkj25]

Progression is the key here, we can't compete with the like of Man City financially and we can see how failing to recruit properly has effected them. What we need is to build a proper team playing the right way and then worry about league position, once we have achieved that goal then we can demand our team should be in this position or that position, Under our constraints this can only be accomplished gradually.

 

[Irwin99]

My biggest worry is that you can kid yourself with the idea of progress and ‘maturing’ as a team and it just ends up going on forever and ends up justifying penny pinching from the owners. I’d say what happened to Arsenal post invincibles is an example, also what we did post SAF when we stuck with players such as Smalling, Jones, Young etc.

That being said, the players that came in this summer were good business. It’s just a shame we didn’t do more of it to make a real go at getting top 4.

 

[AshRK]

Mostly because we have a manager way out of his depth.

If he finishes in top 4 then surely he is not way out of his depth.

 

[Lee565]

Should be both not one or the other, how on earth are we going to progress by finishing out of the top 4 again, it would be 2 steps back not a step forward with more and more players less eager to join us and start seeing us a Europa league team and not an elite one anymore, plus we are not some club on a shoe string budget, we just brought supposedly the best English defender for 80 million and we are suppose to think finishing out of the top 4 playing bang average football is a season of progress?

 

[Marcus]

Progress and Top 4

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Progress.

If we make progress we'll finish in the top 4 anyway. We just may not finish 3rd or 2nd.

 

[AshRK]

You dont know that

I cannot see this board being patient with Ole if he finishes outside Top 4 or doesn't win the europa. CL football is a must next season. Next season the likes of chelsea, city and liverpool will all be actively involved in signing players and if we don't have CL football to offer we might not be even in the contention for the top players like Sancho. It is CL football or bust for Ole.

 

[hubbuh]

Mostly because we have a manager way out of his depth.

What would be a reasonable expectation given where we are currently at? People seem increasingly detached from the reality of the situation.

 

[Skills]

What would be a reasonable expectation given where we are currently at? People seem increasingly detached from the reality of the situation.

Comfortable top 4. Top 4 itself should happen by default because Chelsea just lost by far their best player, and weren't allowed to replace him with anyone. Unless some mentalist here is trying to argue, that Romelu Lukaku's absence from our bench is the same as Chelsea losing Eden Hazard.

 

[VeevaVee]

If the football isn't (properly) better, the results aren't other than the odd patch (cue turning point threads), and the league position won't be.

This is another case of being presented one or the other when that's not the situation.

We've had a decent league position on its own recently though. Didn't rate that much personally.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Should be both not one or the other, how on earth are we going to progress by finishing out of the top 4 again, it would be 2 steps back not a step forward with more and more players less eager to join us and start seeing us a Europa league team and not an elite one anymore, plus we are not some club on a shoe string budget, we just brought supposedly the best English defender for 80 million and we are suppose to think finishing out of the top 4 playing bang average football is a season of progress?

I don't think Gary believes that everything will be rosy if we finish out of the top-four. 5th-6th place finishes have sadly become normality for us. He clearly states that if we lose CL qualification by fine margins (or after putting up a good fight), this should not be a reason to fire the manager, (what Woodward does) change the new transfer policy and push the reset button. If we're going to suffer for one season because of players like Herrera, Fellaini, Lukaku and Smalling not being in the rotation, then so be it because we've finally realized that we're going nowhere by adding overpaid good-but-not-great players to our deadwood. He's not saying that it will be OK, if we suffer a total collapse like towards the end of last season.

The mention of Klopp isn't about accepting a few more barren years as much (after all, Klopp never failed to qualify for the CL after his first summer window) as it is about giving the manager some breathing space to reshape the whole first team (the only highly important player that Klopp still utilizes from the team he inherited from Rodgers is Firmino). It's inevitable that there are going to be some hiccups on the way.

Whether you have faith in this new plan, it depends on you.

 

[Skills]

I don't think Gary believes that everything will be rosy if we finish out of the top-four. 5th-6th place finishes have sadly become normality for us. He clearly states that if we lose CL qualification by fine margins (or after putting up a good fight), this should not be a reason to fire the manager, (what Woodward does) change the new transfer policy and push the reset button. If we're going to suffer for one season because of players like Herrera, Fellaini, Lukaku and Smalling not being in the rotation, then so be it because we've finally realized that we're going nowhere by adding overpaid good-but-not-great players to our deadwood. He's not saying that it will be OK, if we suffer a total collapse like towards the end of last season.

The mention of Klopp isn't about accepting a few more barren years as much (after all, Klopp never failed to qualify for the CL after his first summer window) as it is about giving the manager some breathing space to reshape the whole first team (the only highly important player that Klopp still utilizes from the team he inherited from Rodgers is Firmino). It's inevitable that there are going to be some hiccups on the way.

Whether you have faith in this new plan, it depends on you.

Jordan Henderson is his captain.

 

[romufc]

To be fair we looked a decent side in the first half of the season and looked much confident. The August September period was probably the best since sir alex retired. The second half was a totally different story. We looked like a side who lacked little motivation to win matches. I know city were always going to win the league but had our team remain consistent and Jose did not start moaning and whining we could have ended the season closer to 90 points.

I know but the football was still dull in that we won alot of games 2-1 or something. But the point is we looked good then when we came to Sevilla.. awful that was. And that rant after then maybe sealed his fate.

We saw that after 2nd and a bit of promise.. we then went into meltdown.

United fans have been scarred and don't know what they want anymore.

I think to finish in the top 4 you have to play well, so progression comes hand in hand with success.

Would you call 6th progression or success? I wouldn't Success would be top 4 and a trophy and progression should be top 4 minimum.

 

[AshRK]

I know but the football was still dull in that we won alot of games 2-1 or something. But the point is we looked good then when we came to Sevilla.. awful that was. And that rant after then maybe sealed his fate.

We saw that after 2nd and a bit of promise.. we then went into meltdown.

United fans have been scarred and don't know what they want anymore.

I think to finish in the top 4 you have to play well, so progression comes hand in hand with success.

Would you call 6th progression or success? I wouldn't Success would be top 4 and a trophy and progression should be top 4 minimum.

I absolutely agree and that is why I said it is sadly top 4 or bust for Ole. We can play all the beautiful football but if we don't end up in top 4 then it will be a failure of a season.