Progression or league position?

bosnian_red

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We can progress as a team and play good football with progression throughout the season without finishing top 4 (though naturally if we play well and progress we'll be in with a good shot). If we miss out, then so be it. It gives us a better chance at doing a proper rebuild and future success.

Mourinho finished 2nd but it was an awful season that felt like everything was heading the wrong way. That's his point. Nobody gives a feck about 2nd place finishes if they're like what that was. Sacrificing future progression, proper team building and good football for trying to grind out a top 4 spot is dumb, because you're at risk of that anyway and it leads to every season being a grind. The progression view is that 1 year might be tougher but the following years should be smoother.

It's never black and white of course, but we should absolutely go the progress route over trying to grind our way into 4th (mainly because we don't need to). If we play our game and progress as the season goes, good chance is that we'll get top 4 and be confident for future seasons anyway as you expect more progress.
 

romufc

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I absolutely agree and that is why I said it is sadly top 4 or bust for Ole. We can play all the beautiful football but if we don't end up in top 4 then it will be a failure of a season.
However much I like what Ole is doing and want him to succeed I get the feeling it will be bust.

It is a shame because we are getting into this hire.. give time.. give £200m.. sack routine.

I just hope Ole can prove people wrong.
 

Canagel

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Both. If we are truly progressing it shouldnt be too difficult to reach top 4. The whole league outside of top two is weak.
 

devilish

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I am not a big fan of Ole but can the club seriously expect a top 4 place from a manager managing a club with no midfield or forward line?
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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Jordan Henderson is his captain.
He has brought too many reinforcements in the midfield to suggest that he was happy with Henderson. Hendo is their captain and an important figure in the dressing room, so he stays. But Klopp has spent lots of money to add more and different qualities in their midfield. They can live without Henderson, they will find it very difficult to cope without Firmino, if an injury crisis comes knocking at their door. Even so, it took Klopp four years and a new starting lineup minus one (or two, if you like) players in order to make Liverpool top dogs. It doesn't mean that it would have been OK if he had crashed and burned somewhere along the way (as some suggest should be the case with Ole) but it definitely took him time and a lot of good faith from their fans.
 

reddevil702

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There has to be a balance. I mean if we finish 8th can that really be considered progression? On the flip side, finish 4th the way we are currently playing doesn't really inspire anyone to believe we would be able to do better the following season. I was optimistic about the 2nd place finish under Jose, the team knew how to win and was very pragmatic. Too bad a shit transfer window and Jose going mental ruined any chances before the season even started.
 

Bobcat

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He’s right. The idea that we just absolutely must be in the CL ever season at any cost is nonsense. Spurs weren’t always qualifying and they moved up, Liverpool had seasons finishing 7th and 8th and they developed in to probable title winners. Arsenal qualified every season for years and were just treading water. This “CL at any cost” attitude is why we ended up with crap like Di Maria and Sanchez. Top players would much rather join a good team who play with a consistent style and visible football philosophy, than join a dysfunctional mess that’s desperately clinging on to a top four position. It’s crazy how little some people have learned from the past 6 years.
This is spot on. I'd rather play two-three seasons in the EL if it means we can develop into title contenders down the road than to finish fourth/third for the foreseeable future. This "instant success at any cost" thinking is what got us into this mess
 

R'hllor

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Oh noes no CL no adidas money, what we gonna do, God knows we are really good at how to spend the money we have. Was always been win regardless how kind of guy, last 2 years or so changed that for me, we can have 10 wins in a row with shitty performances and it will always catch us at the end.

Even now, when ever you mention JM you can expect waves of 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd but 2nd, yea it did wonders for us. CL this CL that, attracting top players (who turn non top after our training regime), also how it looks right now, our transfers backed with CL are worse than the ones with EL, which is funny.

Just admit that you are bunch of selfish pricks and all that talk about how top 4 is important for you because its a building block for our future is actually a bullshit. You just wanna watch your team in CL, even if its in Arsenal style. You wouldnt mind us, just floating on the surface of the ocean for years, not sinking, not getting rescued, like you are EW clones. Last season people cheered for Liverpool due higher chance of top 4 and defended it with care for United benefit > hate for Liverpool. That went well.

Right now care mostly for true development and progression in our performances, something that makes me see vision for our future. Development of players, turning good into very good, very good into world class. Cant believe even saying this but wish we help develop another Ronaldo, so Real or Barca would come sniffing and drooling. How things stand now, we trying to gift players away, pay their pages to not be here, some we cant even get rid of even if we want to. Compared to other top teams, we look like a joke.
 

Sky1981

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Problem is. When you're moving backwards result wise, progression are just a sentimental value you create to defend the manager.

We're not talking about 2nd or 3rd or even a top 4 finish. Nobody expect a league title, but if we ended up with being 6th how in the world we can honestly say it's a progress?
 

Sky1981

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This is spot on. I'd rather play two-three seasons in the EL if it means we can develop into title contenders down the road than to finish fourth/third for the foreseeable future. This "instant success at any cost" thinking is what got us into this mess
Problem is. Just because you play 2 or 3 years in the el doesnt mean you'll get it right the 4th years.

Saf is an anomaly, not everyone's going to be saf if given 6 years.

The list of managers that succeeds in their later year after a string of bad seasons are very small. We could pray and hope ole is the next saf but it'll be foolish to bet on it.

If he finished 6th this year and out of top 4 the next seasom chances are he's not a good manager.
 

Hip Hop

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Well progression can be translate on league position. Don't know why it should be the one or the other.
 

#07

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The table doesn't lie. Progression=position. If we finish 6th or lower how do you measure it? You can maybe argue that there's an idea we are working towards, and deadwood being shifted. However, that should show itself on the field too.
 

Greck

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Progress but regardless it's possible to end up in such a bad league position that any progress becomes hard to see. Both options don't exist in a vacuum. In our case I see progress in the transfer market but don't understand people presenting it as the barometer of progress. It tells me the manager can buy, the ideas I see on the pitch is what will tell us if he can coach
 

Kag

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I vividly remember there was a thread two years back asking results or better brand of football. Good results brings more confidence and brings progression. This whole notion of I will be happy with finishing 6th but that would be fine as long as we play good football is fine is bs.
Tosh.

Mourinho ended his second season with 82 points and even the dimmest of folk should have recognised that he was on the road out. The sensible lot among us called the abhorrent football out for what it was and were eventually proven to be right all along.

Likewise, it was increasingly obvious that Liverpool were turning into a team during the second half of the 17/18 season. They finished below us, but the progression in their football was obvious. Title fight the following season.

Neville is right on this occasion. Get the playing style and mentality right and the results will gradually improve. If we miss out on top four (and I don’t think we will) by a few points then I’m willing to accept that on the proviso I can still see a plan. At the moment, there’s a plan. Highlighted by the likes of Wan-Bissaka, Maguire and James coming into the team and looking like proper United players.

It’s a case of wait and see. It isn’t a case of looking at the league position and informing black or white decisions on that alone. Albeit I’m sure there are numpties who disagree....
 

wolvored

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Progression and league position should go hand in hand. we play better, we win more games, we improve or consolidate our position, depending where we are.
 

Jinn

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For me personally, progression means playing our brand of football, giving the kids time to establish themselves in the team and bringing the right profile of players into the club.
If all of that is put in place, in time we will move up the table and challenge for all honours.

Getting rid of a manager who is clearly trying to do that is not the way to go. I don't believe replacing the manager with "insert name here" will bring us success in the long term. We have tried short term fixes and it hasn't worked.
 

Leftback99

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The table doesn't lie. Progression=position. If we finish 6th or lower how do you measure it? You can maybe argue that there's an idea we are working towards, and deadwood being shifted. However, that should show itself on the field too.
Not necessarily. If you have an ageing squad or bring in short term options you might improve position in the short term but you're unlikely to progress in the following years unless you keep replacing with similar or better quality.

Younger players will be inconsistent, and with that comes a wider range of probable finishing positions.
 

noodlehair

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As painful as it may sound but this season finishing top 4 is like winning a trophy for us and Ole recognizes that. Ole may not be happy with the Leicester's performance but he realises he would not even remain at this job if the club don't finish in top 4. I thought we played much better against Wolves and Palace than against us Leicester but did not get the desired result, not because we played better football. Maybe as we start getting those 3 points more frequently we will start playing more expansive football. This is where I think Europa can actually help him. Getting some 4-0 and 5-0s against the likes of Astana may bring more confidence to the players and to the fans.
I think Leicester are a much better team than Palace and Wolves (on current form) and it's as simple as that really.

Leicester completely outplayed Chelsea at Stamford Bridge only a few weeks ago. Last season they outplayed Liverpool at Anfield. I was confused why people were so unhappy with the performance. It was unrealistic to expect us to come out and brush them aside in the circumstances. It's a difficult fixture for any team in the league. We should have won the Wolves game and were poor against Palace. That's just how it goes sometimes. Ole needs to eliminate performances like the Palace game, and try to build on performances like the Wolves one, so that when we are on top we are creating and taking the chances to win the game.

It is a work in progress though. I wouldn't want us playing dour defensive or reducer football in the hope of nicking the odd extra point or two here and there. For a start where is the evidence this would even work? Against Wolves and Southampton we have conceded goals from defensive situations where all of our players were back. Doing this more would mean we concede more goals and potentially score less. Secondly how does this help us improve the team towards the level we want it to be at? At the moment you can see the attacking play has a lot of room and need for improvement. That's unlikely to happen if we set up not to attack.
 

Aouer-United

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I think Leicester are a much better team than Palace and Wolves (on current form) and it's as simple as that really.

Leicester completely outplayed Chelsea at Stamford Bridge only a few weeks ago. Last season they outplayed Liverpool at Anfield. I was confused why people were so unhappy with the performance. It was unrealistic to expect us to come out and brush them aside in the circumstances. It's a difficult fixture for any team in the league. We should have won the Wolves game and were poor against Palace. That's just how it goes sometimes. Ole needs to eliminate performances like the Palace game, and try to build on performances like the Wolves one, so that when we are on top we are creating and taking the chances to win the game.

It is a work in progress though. I wouldn't want us playing dour defensive or reducer football in the hope of nicking the odd extra point or two here and there. For a start where is the evidence this would even work? Against Wolves and Southampton we have conceded goals from defensive situations where all of our players were back. Doing this more would mean we concede more goals and potentially score less. Secondly how does this help us improve the team towards the level we want it to be at? At the moment you can see the attacking play has a lot of room and need for improvement. That's unlikely to happen if we set up not to attack.

We have a second difficult to play against the team (last season's position) for the first 5 games after Arsenal who hasn't looked great all this season so far barring Spurs game. Liverpool and City had easiest for the first 5 games. Once we figured out how to score more goal, we'll be fine.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Progression. We can still get CL spot with winning Europa league. However, to make progression obviously we need to actually show it. There is no point of talking about progression if we keep playing deadwood over the future or players who deserve to play more. For example Matic over Fred & Pereira over Gomes.
 

redIndianDevil

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I vividly remember there was a thread two years back asking results or better brand of football. Good results brings more confidence and brings progression. This whole notion of I will be happy with finishing 6th but that would be fine as long as we play good football is fine is bs.
It's actually the other way around, the more good football you play, progression will happen automatically (provided you don't keep selling your best players/not invest properly every year).
 

redIndianDevil

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As painful as it may sound but this season finishing top 4 is like winning a trophy for us and Ole recognizes that. Ole may not be happy with the Leicester's performance but he realises he would not even remain at this job if the club don't finish in top 4. I thought we played much better against Wolves and Palace than against us Leicester but did not get the desired result, not because we played better football. Maybe as we start getting those 3 points more frequently we will start playing more expansive football. This is where I think Europa can actually help him. Getting some 4-0 and 5-0s against the likes of Astana may bring more confidence to the players and to the fans.
Alternatively if we struggle to break down the likes of Astana what would happen?
 

redIndianDevil

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Definitely progression. The league position will automatically follow once our style of football changes and we actually look like a well coached side, till then everything will be a false dawn.
 

Bobcat

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Problem is. Just because you play 2 or 3 years in the el doesnt mean you'll get it right the 4th years.

Saf is an anomaly, not everyone's going to be saf if given 6 years.

The list of managers that succeeds in their later year after a string of bad seasons are very small. We could pray and hope ole is the next saf but it'll be foolish to bet on it.

If he finished 6th this year and out of top 4 the next seasom chances are he's not a good manager.
Not disagreeing with this. Of course if the results are bad several seasons in a row, the progression in not there. I dont think Ole is the next SAF (no one is), but as far as progression under him i would say these things
  • Under Jose we were one of the teams that covered the least distance in the league. Fitness was an issue, something we really experienced at the end of last season and this is something Ole has addressed several times
  • The players seem much more happy both on and of the pitch and has had nothing but praise about the manager. A big step up from the doom and gloom that we saw in Joses last year
  • Everyone agreed the squad needed to be ripped up and rebuilt, and this has started. Granted it has left us very thin, but i rather have two bad seasons and get it done quickly, then be second best and do it over 4-5 years
  • His transfers so far has been spot on, and are all players for the future. None of this nonsense of buying washed up primadonnas
  • We look much more solid in defense (much thanks to AWB and Maguire). The goals we have conceded so far this season has often come down to silly individual errors and if we can stop those, we would be pretty hard to break down
The biggest worry is how much we struggle to create good chances from open play, but hopefully that is something we can improve as the season goes on
 

Tarrou

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Well progression can be translate on league position. Don't know why it should be the one or the other.
It can but not necessarily. We finished 2nd recently but we weren't progressing much as a team, because Jose only cared about the short term.
 

Mark Pawelek

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  • Everyone agreed the squad needed to be ripped up and rebuilt, and this has started. Granted it has left us very thin, but i rather have two bad seasons and get it done quickly, then be second best and do it over 4-5 years
I agree with Neville, and it's something Ole & the staff can't say. So it's good someone should say it. Top 4 isn't the target. PL champions is. Rather spend 2 seasons getting it right than 10 seasons staying in top 4 and getting nowhere near PL champions.
 
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devilish

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I wonder how progression is measured. Is buying very expensive British talent and talking about kids considered progression? Cause football wise I haven't seen much progression. We create very little and we rely on penalties to get points
 

roonster09

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In most cases you see progression based on league position. Ideally we should have proper system where every player is comfortable with their roles and as a team we are more than sum of the parts. Even if we do end up losing games here and there and end up dropping points, more often than not we will be able to turn it around.

On the other hand, with nothing in place you will scrap few wins and end up in good position but there is a good chance it won't be sustainable.

Results are important and how we achieve those results is important too. We shouldn't be picking one or the other though, it was like choice between good attacking football or results. For the club as big as ManUtd, it shouldn't be an option.
 

trafford1980

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We didn’t make top 4 with Lukaku, Herrera, Sanchez, Fellaini and Smalling here. So If we finish this season outside the top 4, in say 5th/6th/7th spot whilst the likes of Greenwood, Gomes, Chong and Tuanzebe all appear increasingly throughout to the extent that they’re bonafide first-teamers by May and we’ve subsequently lowered both the age of our squad and their accumulative wages then I’d be happily call this season progression. Caveat is that we have to be fun to watch and the kids I mention above start at least 10-15 matches each with a bunch of sub appearances too.

Put it this way. I’d rather the above scenario than an alternative reality where we kept our Summer outgoings, scrape top 4, and a year goes by without us knowing whether Greenwood and co. are ready.
 

devilish

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In most cases you see progression based on league position. Ideally we should have proper system where every player is comfortable with their roles and as a team we are more than sum of the parts. Even if we do end up losing games here and there and end up dropping points, more often than not we will be able to turn it around.

On the other hand, with nothing in place you will scrap few wins and end up in good position but there is a good chance it won't be sustainable.

Results are important and how we achieve those results is important too. We shouldn't be picking one or the other though, it was like choice between good attacking football or results. For the club as big as ManUtd, it shouldn't be an option.
The aim for a top club is to win the league. Progression on purely football purposes can only be measured by how close we can get to that aim

I think that Ole has a better argument claiming that this side is currently weaker to the one he inherited. Herrera, Fellaini, Lukaku and Smalling have gone with little to no replacement to them. Hence it cannot be judged on the same yardstick as the previous teams
 
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Crashoutcassius

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For this season I would prefer to see good progress. Missing out on cl is a blow but if we don't see progress then we will just be starting over again soon anyway

As far as pogba goes, we have played 5 games, let's see if he plays well in a single game this season before we factor him into big club decisions like football vs results at all costs
 

Tarrou

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I wonder how progression is measured. Is buying very expensive British talent and talking about kids considered progression? Cause football wise I haven't seen much progression. We create very little and we rely on penalties to get points
do you ever take a day off?
 

CM10

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League position should be an indicator of progress
 

Ikon

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I personally feel its essential to have CL football next season for the progression to be able to continue.
This incentive is going to be so important in the transfer market.