Prophet Muhammad cartoon sparks Batley Grammar School protest

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There a few things in this thread you didn't think you'd ever read.

I've gone ahead and reported it as a part of the initiative taken by @Wibble and the other mods in that other thread regarding reporting such content. The poster in question has literally swept aside an event like the Holocaust and the murder of millions as 'treatment that wasn't meant to ridicule or cause controversy'. It's the kind of racist/discriminatory content that undermining possibly the greatest tragedy in human history defending the rule that actually caused it and should have no place on a public forum where we could well have descendants of those very victims reading it and ending up traumatized.
well done.

it was buried in the middle of their post, and have to say, I was surprised to see that it had not been picked up on.
 

Mogget

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All people have to do is not unnecessarily depict one man. Life peacefully goes on, relatively anyway. Islamic beliefs impede on no one's lives nor is there any appetite or potential for it. People just prefer not being unnecessarily subjected to something that is deeply upsetting to them. You don't get it, fair enough, but to resort to "sLiPpErY sLoPe if one can't freely insult we'll be a censored dictatorship by tomorrow" - it's just not a reasonable, practical response.

There is enough shit going on and tension in everyone's lives, why stir up more. For the freedom to do so? Because you need to teach the looney types - who exist in all walks of life - that actually foam at the mouth for this some kind of lesson? To achieve what. It's just a mental perspective to have.
I dunno, they definitely impeded my life as I was growing up.
 

NotThatSoph

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There a few things in this thread you didn't think you'd ever read.

I've gone ahead and reported it as a part of the initiative taken by @Wibble and the other mods in that other thread regarding reporting such content. The poster in question has literally swept aside an event like the Holocaust and the murder of millions as 'treatment that wasn't meant to ridicule or cause controversy'. It's the kind of racist/discriminatory content that undermining possibly the greatest tragedy in human history defending the rule that actually caused it and should have no place on a public forum where we could well have descendants of those very victims reading it and ending up traumatized.
...

The point was obviously the complete opposite. It's about how when nazism and its propaganda is shown in school then it's to show how horrible it was, not to ridicule or cause controversy by showing Jews getting murdered.
 

Roane

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There a few things in this thread you didn't think you'd ever read.

I've gone ahead and reported it as a part of the initiative taken by @Wibble and the other mods in that other thread regarding reporting such content. The poster in question has literally swept aside an event like the Holocaust and the murder of millions as 'treatment that wasn't meant to ridicule or cause controversy'. It's the kind of racist/discriminatory content that undermining possibly the greatest tragedy in human history defending the rule that actually caused it and should have no place on a public forum where we could well have descendants of those very victims reading it and ending up traumatized.
That was a complete mess up of a sentence and yes reading it again I can see why you would reach that conclusion but honestly it wasn't what was meant
 

Moby

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That was a complete mess up of a sentence and yes reading it again I can see why you would reach that conclusion but honestly it wasn't what was meant
Fair enough. We obviously have to go by what's exactly written but at least it isn't what it seemed to be.
 

Roane

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Fair enough. We obviously have to go by what's exactly written but at least it isn't what it seemed to be.
No honestly it wasn't.

If you read the discussion, I was responding to poster who used nazism being shown in schools and what I was trying to say was that I was shown it too. But it was never shown in a way that was to offend pupils , more to inform of the horrors of the Holocaust.

It was ll in line with my argument that a teachers job is never, imo, to offend etc

I've changed the word done to shown in that sentence and hope it makes more sense.

I'm aghast that it was taken in anyway that I was belittling the horrible treatment of Jewish people during WW2 and that I was anyway denying the awful treatment that was handed out.

I most certainly was not and apologise if anyone was offended by my carelessness in writing that response
 
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Roane

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An esoteric / academic understanding of the word doesn’t mean much in the hands of the average, everyday christian that describes themselves as such.

And Jonathan Edwards literally meant angry.
An excerpt:
“The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment.”


I’m asking how much opinion you think should be used when teaching 4-16 year olds about who goes to Heaven vs who goes to Hell.
Yeah I accept that translations are often what people use and go by.

With regards to your question I'm not sure opinion is needed when discussing religions in a secular environment.

For example I think some of creationism is nuts. But my role of asked would be to lay out what it is, what it entails and leave it at that. I certainly wouldn't go in with, finish with, "it's nuts"
 
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Moby

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No honestly it wasn't.

If you read the discussion, I was responding to poster who used nazism being shown in schools and what I was trying to say was that I was shown it too. But it was never shown in a way that was to offend pupils , more to inform of the horrors of the Holocaust.

It was ll in line with my argument that a teachers job is never, imo, to offend etc

I've changed the word done to shown in that sentence and hope it makes more sense.

I'm aghast that it was taken in anyway that I was belittling the horrible treatment of Jewish people during WW2 and that I was anyway denying the awful treatment that was handed out.

I most certainly was not and apologised if anyone was offended by my carelessness in writing that response
No worries and your stance was clear the first time you clarified it. No harm done.
 

Roane

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I mean, this particular ignorance is appalling. ‘Jews weren’t demeaned in Nazi literature?’ It literally was a cottage industry in Nazi culture.
They absolutely were.

It was an absolute stupid mistake on my part how I wrote that.

My point wasn't related to the Nazis but that my teachers didnt show it to offend or ridicule us as students.

If you follow the conversation I was having with the poster hopefully you will see it wasn't meant the way it came across
 
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Pogue Mahone

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Speaking as Muslim bloke from the area, with plenty of family/connections in Batley... This whole thing is total bullshit. Absolutely zero need for a protest - the school was dealing with the issue and the community just fine - and most folk that I've spoken to just wish they hadn't.... Blown this whole thing out of proportion by doing so.
That’s exactly what I was getting at. The crowd outside the school don’t represent the feelings of the vast majority of Muslims. But their overreaction generates the Islamophobic content that the Mail, The Sun and the Torygraph crave. They’ve done far more harm to the day to day existence of Muslims in the UK (and in that school!) than the teacher.
 

Roane

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...

The point was obviously the complete opposite. It's about how when nazism and its propaganda is shown in school then it's to show how horrible it was, not to ridicule or cause controversy by showing Jews getting murdered.
You are right that is what the conversation and comment was trying to say.

To be fair as a sentence in isolation I can see why it may have come across wrong.
 

groovyalbert

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That’s exactly what I was getting at. The crowd outside the school don’t represent the feelings of the vast majority of Muslims. But their overreaction generates the Islamophobic content that the Mail, The Sun and the Torygraph crave. They’ve done far more harm to the day to day existence of Muslims in the UK (and in that school!) than the teacher.
Absolutely, and in turn these more fundamentalist groups then benefit as through the demonisation/Islamophobic response pushes members of the community towards them. Particularly those who are younger/more vulnerable. It's an absolute horror show where two extreme stances dictate the narrative and any common-sense/productive discourse is lost.
 

Shamana

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That’s exactly what I was getting at. The crowd outside the school don’t represent the feelings of the vast majority of Muslims. But their overreaction generates the Islamophobic content that the Mail, The Sun and the Torygraph crave. They’ve done far more harm to the day to day existence of Muslims in the UK (and in that school!) than the teacher.
To be honest I still wonder what the teacher thought was going to happen considering we know how nuclear these cartoons are. In the social media age it only takes 1 outraged person to share the story, your name, adress and it all goes viral. Obviously I don't think it should be like that, but if I weighed up the risk as a teacher, I wouldn't do it or at least certainly not in England or France.
 

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That’s exactly what I was getting at. The crowd outside the school don’t represent the feelings of the vast majority of Muslims. But their overreaction generates the Islamophobic content that the Mail, The Sun and the Torygraph crave. They’ve done far more harm to the day to day existence of Muslims in the UK (and in that school!) than the teacher.
Pogue.

The Muslim community in the UK shouldn’t have to act differently than other groups because they might stoke racist actions.
 

Roane

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To be honest I still wonder what the teacher thought was going to happen considering we know how nuclear these cartoons are. In the social media age it only takes 1 outraged person to share the story, your name, adress and it all goes viral. Obviously I don't think it should be like that, but if I weighed up the risk as a teacher, I wouldn't do it or at least certainly not in England or France.
It's unlikely we will hear the full story in its truth. Basically the battle lines have been drawn in various media etc.

The cartoons themselves have been used as parts of discussion on a variety of subjects. Just on here people have said they discussed them in law class. It has never generated this much attention.

That to me doesn't suggest they are "nuclear". I guess we will have to wait to see why it caused what it did in this case.
 
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To be honest I still wonder what the teacher thought was going to happen considering we know how nuclear these cartoons are. In the social media age it only takes 1 outraged person to share the story, your name, adress and it all goes viral. Obviously I don't think it should be like that, but if I weighed up the risk as a teacher, I wouldn't do it or at least certainly not in England or France.
I agree, and most would t have tackled it because of the potential for outrage that comes subsequently.

but bloody hell, is that what we’ve become a society where we are afraid to test ourselves for fear of the angry mob being faux or even actually outraged.

thank feck I’ve lived a lot before we’ve got into this situation.
 

NotThatSoph

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You are right that is what the conversation and comment was trying to say.

To be fair as a sentence in isolation I can see why it may have come across wrong.
In isolation it might have meant a few other things, but not that. No reasonable person could read that comment and conclude that it was making light of Jews or their treatment by nazi Germany.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Pogue.

The Muslim community in the UK shouldn’t have to act differently than other groups because they might stoke racist actions.
A bunch of dickheads turning up at school gates over an issue that was already in hand because they see chance to further a toxic agenda is acting differently to other groups. That’s the point. It was already being dealt with to the satisfaction of anyone that mattered. No need for them to turn up at the school gates.

To be clear, you get assholes from Christian extremists groups pulling similar stunts (e.g. pro-lifers picketing maternity hospitals) The difference being that they are strongly condemned by anyone who considers themselves even vaguely progressive. We don’t try to justify or defend their actions on the basis of terminations being outlawed by their faith.
 

Shamana

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I agree, and most would t have tackled it because of the potential for outrage that comes subsequently.

but bloody hell, is that what we’ve become a society where we are afraid to test ourselves for fear of the angry mob being faux or even actually outraged.

thank feck I’ve lived a lot before we’ve got into this situation.
Well when we live in an age where an offensive cartoon likely carries a death sentece carried out by extremists we are living in weird times.
 

NotThatSoph

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Well when we live in an age where an offensive cartoon likely carries a death sentece carried out by extremists we are living in weird times.
People like you always push their hand a bit too much. You know this isn't true, you can score points even by shutting up in a situation like this, but you just can't help yourself.
 

Shamana

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People like you always push their hand a bit too much. You know this isn't true, you can score points even by shutting up in a situation like this, but you just can't help yourself.
There have been terror and murder attempts on nearly everyone involved in the cartoons crisis. The cartoonists and the newspapers that originally published them. Even Yale university that made a book about the cartoon crisis decided not to publish the cartoons out of secuerity concerns. South park decided to puss out.
 

NotThatSoph

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There have been terror and murder attempts on nearly everyone involved in the cartoons crisis. The cartoonists and the newspapers that originally published them.
You know a lot of papers published the cartoons even right after Bataclan both as a show of support and to make a point. You know thousands of teachers have showed this material in class. You know this has been shown countless times in other venues.

You know full well that it's absolutely not likely that this teacher or anyone else who chooses to show these cartoons will get killed, but you say it anyway.
 

Shamana

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You know a lot of papers published the cartoons even right after Bataclan both as a show of support and to make a point. You know thousands of teachers have showed this material in class. You know this has been shown countless times in other venues.

You know full well that it's absolutely not likely that this teacher or anyone else who chooses to show these cartoons will get killed, but you say it anyway.
Okay I concede, I'm probably wrong there. But don't you think if this teacher refused to apologize and didn't have police protection that there is good chance that his life would be in danger at some point because of this?
 

NotThatSoph

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Okay I concede, I'm probably wrong there. But don't you think if this teacher refused to apologize and didn't have police protection that there is good chance that his life would be in danger at some point because of this?
No, I don't.

And for "probably wrong", here's a non-exhaustive list only counting newspapers, please count the number of killed people for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_that_reprinted_Jyllands-Posten's_Muhammad_cartoons
 

Shamana

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No, I don't.

And for "probably wrong", here's a non-exhaustive list only counting newspapers, please count the number of killed people for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_that_reprinted_Jyllands-Posten's_Muhammad_cartoons
I framed that wrong, I said there had been murder attemps on the cartoonists, and the papers that origianlly published by which I meant Jyllands posten and later Charlie Hebdo where they suceeded. You are correct that there havn't been terror attemps on the papers that reprinted the cartoons. I agree I was wrong if I said that anyone who re-printed the cartoons have been subjected to terror attacks and murder attempts. As for the teacher, it only really takes one fundamentalist to do the job. If it hadn't garnered attention, I would probably wouldnt fear for my safety, but because of the attention I would.

Anyway thanks for calling out my bullshit. Perhaps it would have been more correct to say we live in times where an offensive cartoon can possibly get you killed.
 
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izzydiggler

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You argue about whether these things should be shown to school kids but I think the larger issue is that you highly likely won’t see a single news outlet in the UK show you the cartoon that’s causing the debate.
 

Roane

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Well when we live in an age where an offensive cartoon likely carries a death sentece carried out by extremists we are living in weird times.
Weird times indeed.

We have a situation where the media are greater in number than protestors.

A school that has apologised for inappropriate materials used in a classroom setting and suspended a teacher.

No detail on the class being taught or the content. But plenty of detail on the "burley 20 year old rugby player" being protected by police.

A 25k petition to reinstate a teacher, when he hasn't been sacked. Suspended whilst a formal internal investigation is carried out, which is standard practise.
 

Simbo

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Some talk of it being 13-14 year olds
Sounds like a great way to get out of class.

Do we even know that its true? Was it done as part of a teaching session or was the teacher trying to be funny in free time?

Was it even the teacher, or did a student put it on screen?

We have no context at all... so we're left to the basic debate the usual "controversy" over a drawing of Mohammed by a non-Islamism, of which we are still at step one, that is the protesters needing to justify the disruption they cause over it.

It makes no sense, it is not rational, not healthy and while we're on the subject of teaching children, a very bad example to them.
 
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manc exile

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the people who believe that the teacher should have known better and shouldnt have done it are wrong.

People have no right not to be offended.

i am offended almost every day by the actions of muslims. i do not think they should be hounded out of carrying out those actions and i think muslims should extend the same courtesy to everyone else.

being offended and coping with it is the only way a multicultural society works.

As soon as we start stopping actions purely because they offend someone then the minorities are sidelined and discriminated against. This will undoubtably affect muslims. I dont understand why the people protesting cannot understand this
 
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Devil_forever

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A bunch of dickheads turning up at school gates over an issue that was already in hand because they see chance to further a toxic agenda is acting differently to other groups. That’s the point. It was already being dealt with to the satisfaction of anyone that mattered. No need for them to turn up at the school gates.

To be clear, you get assholes from Christian extremists groups pulling similar stunts (e.g. pro-lifers picketing maternity hospitals) The difference being that they are strongly condemned by anyone who considers themselves even vaguely progressive. We don’t try to justify or defend their actions on the basis of terminations being outlawed by their faith.
Part of the answer* is surely that anyone with any sense feels massively uncomfortable shouting "dickheads!" at someone in unison with the reader section of the Daily Mail (and worse).

This doesn't mean reactionary politics within minority demographics shouldn't be criticized, but not factoring it in would be both silly and politically fatal.

* not that I particularly dig the way you framed the question, but anyway
 
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Roane

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So nowhere near 5th graders.

Also, judging by this curriculum guide published by Batley Grammar School, it seems to align to the topic being covered in Years 10 and 11.
https://www.batleygrammar.co.uk/doc...ubject_Information__Options_/RS_2018-2019.pdf
I just answered a question you asked someone else dude

I don't think the curriculum guide is suggesting what some think should be a given: offend, ridicule and be controversial.

As a guide it's pretty standard
 

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Roane

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Sounds like a great way to get out of class.

Do we even know that its true? Was it done as part of a teaching session or was the teacher trying to be funny in free time?

Was it even the teacher, or did a student put it on screen?

We have no context at all... so we're left to the basic debate the usual "controversy" over a drawing of Mohammed by a non-Islamism, of which we are still at step one, that is the protesters needing to justify the disruption they cause over it.

It makes no sense, it is not rational, not heathy and while we're on the subject of teaching children, a very bad example to them.
From what is being written or said it was a planned lesson.

Some talk of maybe more than one teacher involved. Some one mentioned one teacher stirring up hatred by saying your boys blow of our boys legs.

Truth is no one knows the detail yet.

What we do know is that the Teacher was suspended pending investigation, school have said it was inappropriate material and apologised.

Based on what is known my own take is either the school has bowed and let the teacher down or the school really thought it was inappropriate and took the relevant steps.

In today's world world of unions etc I don't think the school would have taken their steps lightly as in apologies straight away and my back a staff member , so maybe the teacher made an error of judgement
 

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I just answered a question you asked someone else dude

I don't think the curriculum guide is suggesting what some think should be a given: offend, ridicule and be controversial.

As a guide it's pretty standard
Was just confirming that the other guy was saying a random age group, brosef.

As to the rest of your post, has there been any actual statement that any of that happened? Or is that the same conjecture that’s been happening the last 2 days?
 

JPRouve

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Was just confirming that the other guy was saying a random age group, brosef.

As to the rest of your post, has there been any actual statement that any of that happened? Or is that the same conjecture that’s been happening the last 2 days?
That should warrant protests.