Protest at Old Trafford

RedDevilQuebecois

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
8,094
My personal opinion is that England is trying to sanitize the game by force rather than understanding and upholding the roots of what fan support is all about. If the owners were not such jackasses for starters, we would never have gone down to that point.

Power to the fans. In Montreal, we are in the midst of similar dogshit between supporters groups and the local football club.
 

Dan_F

Full Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Messages
10,391
then donate. That is literally the point of it.

Out of interest, and I’m presuming that there is one, where do you draw the line at providing funds to support people who have committed criminal offences?
I’m struggling to understand why you’re so bothered about this? Fund raisers are done to provide legal defence all the time, and what happened to innocent until proven guilty?
 

thebelfastboy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Messages
875
Location
Belfast
I'm at my next match in OT in a few weeks Vs Arsenal and I'll donate to MUST. For the record I do not condone or believe in violence or breaking the law, but if I get pushed too far? I'll push back.

History worldwide is littered with events where people stood up for what they believed in and protested against it.

If I was in Manchester that day I'd have joined the protest too. I'm sure plenty of people on this forum sat back, applauded and thought the same at the time. Some people have a short memory.
 

JB7

Full Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
8,848
So, TRA and MUST are currently promoting This

I’m not sure what kind of response this will get on here but I’m embarrassed to see that two extremely influential groups of United fans are genuinely happy to raise funds for people who are accused of committing criminals offences.
Then you quite literally miss the point of it: "We believe that, like any any other member of the public, football fans should be entitled to a presumption of innocence unless proven guilty and just as importantly everyone deserves proper legal advice and representation."

Donated and I hope the ridiculous actions of the police the other night doesn't put people off protesting in a similar manor in future when the time comes - and I'm sure it won't.
 

K Stand Knut

Full Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
5,198
Location
Stretford End
I’m struggling to understand why you’re so bothered about this? Fund raisers are done to provide legal defence all the time, and what happened to innocent until proven guilty?
I suppose I’m more bothered about the fact that it is two highly prominent fan groups essentially asking for money for suspects of crimes who will get free and independent legal advice anyway and because I think it is only happening because of the situation that the arrears occurred.

Where and how do we draw the line for other fans who get arrested at games or is this something that will happen all the time now? Get arrested for any offence at a game and set up a Go FundMe page?

I also have a huge dislike for Go FundMe pages anyway so that might’ve skewed my initial reaction
 

K Stand Knut

Full Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
5,198
Location
Stretford End
Then you quite literally miss the point of it: "We believe that, like any any other member of the public, football fans should be entitled to a presumption of innocence unless proven guilty and just as importantly everyone deserves proper legal advice and representation."

Donated and I hope the ridiculous actions of the police the other night doesn't put people off protesting in a similar manor in future when the time comes - and I'm sure it won't.
Completely agree. And this is why every person who is arrested is offered the chance to take a solicitor that is FREE and independent from the Police. A solicitor that they are allowed access to throughout any investigation.

I am not getting in an argument about the behaviour of the Police either because that was, and often is, abhorrent. A trend that seems to occur massively when it comes to fans at football matches and something I cannot stand.

The fact that the Police were terrible on the day doesn’t give anyone the right to go and commit criminal offences.

Nor, in my opinion, should it be a reason for other football fans to donate money to pay for their legal expenses when they already get legal advice, especially when we don’t know a jot about the evidence against them or what they have been charged with!

For all anyone knows, the evidence might be so overwhelming against them they plead guilty at the first opportunity. I’m not sure I’d be so happy to have donate if that was the case.

If people want to donate, that’s fine. I think it’s weird but each to their own. My issue is more with the fan groups promoting it, especially when one of them has always seemed reluctant to be too involved in the protests because of their relationship with the club
 

Rood

nostradamus like gloater
Scout
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
21,330
Location
@United_Hour
Completely agree. And this is why every person who is arrested is offered the chance to take a solicitor that is FREE and independent from the Police. A solicitor that they are allowed access to throughout any investigation.

I am not getting in an argument about the behaviour of the Police either because that was, and often is, abhorrent. A trend that seems to occur massively when it comes to fans at football matches and something I cannot stand.

The fact that the Police were terrible on the day doesn’t give anyone the right to go and commit criminal offences.

Nor, in my opinion, should it be a reason for other football fans to donate money to pay for their legal expenses when they already get legal advice, especially when we don’t know a jot about the evidence against them or what they have been charged with!

For all anyone knows, the evidence might be so overwhelming against them they plead guilty at the first opportunity. I’m not sure I’d be so happy to have donate if that was the case.

If people want to donate, that’s fine. I think it’s weird but each to their own. My issue is more with the fan groups promoting it, especially when one of them has always seemed reluctant to be too involved in the protests because of their relationship with the club
Part of MUSTs remit has always been to provide advice and legal assistance to matchgoers who need it - I suppose this is the first time in ages that there is a large number rather than just 1 or 2

I personally won't be donating to this though for similar reasons that you outlined
 

Tom Cato

Godt nyttår!
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
7,582
Then you quite literally miss the point of it: "We believe that, like any any other member of the public, football fans should be entitled to a presumption of innocence unless proven guilty and just as importantly everyone deserves proper legal advice and representation."

Donated and I hope the ridiculous actions of the police the other night doesn't put people off protesting in a similar manor in future when the time comes - and I'm sure it won't.
"Raising funds to provide legal advice and representation to Manchester United supporters arrested following the protest held on the date of the Manchester United vs Liverpool match on 2nd May 2021."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-57079467

A man, 25, has been arrested on suspicion of grievous bodily harm.

He is also being held on suspicion of violent disorder and burglary.

GMP said the officer suffered a broken eye socket, broken nose and a slash to the face when an object was thrown at his face at the Old Trafford protest.


Are you donating to help out the man in the article below or is he excluded from your charity? Just wondering what you're supporting.

The fans in legal trouble arent in trouble because the protested peacefully now are they.
 

JB7

Full Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
8,848
"Raising funds to provide legal advice and representation to Manchester United supporters arrested following the protest held on the date of the Manchester United vs Liverpool match on 2nd May 2021."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-57079467

A man, 25, has been arrested on suspicion of grievous bodily harm.

He is also being held on suspicion of violent disorder and burglary.

GMP said the officer suffered a broken eye socket, broken nose and a slash to the face when an object was thrown at his face at the Old Trafford protest.


Are you donating to help out the man in the article below or is he excluded from your charity? Just wondering what you're supporting.

The fans in legal trouble arent in trouble because the protested peacefully now are they.
Peaceful protesting achieved nothing at all for years, frankly anyone fighting on behalf of the fans for the football club deserves proper legal advice and representation, not just the freebies.
 

largelyworried

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
2,101
"Raising funds to provide legal advice and representation to Manchester United supporters arrested following the protest held on the date of the Manchester United vs Liverpool match on 2nd May 2021."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-57079467

A man, 25, has been arrested on suspicion of grievous bodily harm.

He is also being held on suspicion of violent disorder and burglary.

GMP said the officer suffered a broken eye socket, broken nose and a slash to the face when an object was thrown at his face at the Old Trafford protest.


Are you donating to help out the man in the article below or is he excluded from your charity? Just wondering what you're supporting.

The fans in legal trouble arent in trouble because the protested peacefully now are they.
I was on a United protest march back in 2003 when I saw the police drag a teenager to the floor and give him a good seeing to, after which they charged him for assaulting a police officer. Thankfully by chance his mother was a friend of a friend, I found out they were charging him and I appeared as a witness in his case, after which he was acquitted. Just because the police want to charge someone doesn't mean feck all, after all the police force in Manchester is one of the worst in the country. I don't doubt plenty of these guys are bad uns and deserve punishment, but there's a reason why everyone deserves legal advice, not everyone the police arrest are guilty.
 

SuperiorXI

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
14,619
Location
Manchester, England
Completely respect those that wanted to protest but I totally disagree with damaging property and breaking and entering, I'm not going to donate to support thugs in the court of law. There are ways to protest without causing damages... this is football and it should never come to violence - it's fecking sport.
 

Tom Cato

Godt nyttår!
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
7,582
I was on a United protest march back in 2003 when I saw the police drag a teenager to the floor and give him a good seeing to, after which they charged him for assaulting a police officer. Thankfully by chance his mother was a friend of a friend, I found out they were charging him and I appeared as a witness in his case, after which he was acquitted. Just because the police want to charge someone doesn't mean feck all, after all the police force in Manchester is one of the worst in the country. I don't doubt plenty of these guys are bad uns and deserve punishment, but there's a reason why everyone deserves legal advice, not everyone the police arrest are guilty.
That is all well and fine and 18 years ago. Im talking about a incident where a policeofficer was verifiably grievously injured by a protesting fan.

I assume that no one here condones that. So my qustion goes: Will the funds from this GoFundMe be used to defend that particular individual?
 

largelyworried

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
2,101
That is all well and fine and 18 years ago. Im talking about a incident where a policeofficer was verifiably grievously injured by a protesting fan.

I assume that no one here condones that. So my qustion goes: Will the funds from this GoFundMe be used to defend that particular individual?
Way to miss the point. Sometimes the police charge people are who are innocent, which is why they need legal advice.
 

Tom Cato

Godt nyttår!
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
7,582
Way to miss the point. Sometimes the police charge people are who are innocent, which is why they need legal advice.
You have access to free legal advice in Britain though.

But yes, then I presume that the money will also go to offer legal advice to the defendant accused of assaulting the police officer.

I will abstain from donating then. I'm happy to donate for civil disobedience, but there is a hard line at physical violence.
 

largelyworried

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
2,101
You have access to free legal advice in Britain though.

But yes, then I presume that the money will also go to offer legal advice to the defendant accused of assaulting the police officer.

I will abstain from donating then. I'm happy to donate for civil disobedience, but there is a hard line at physical violence.
Not everyone does.
 

Tom Cato

Godt nyttår!
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
7,582
Not everyone does.
Everyone who are arrested or questioned in conjunction with a crime can request free legal advice from the police stations 24/7 duty solicitor before questioning or after if they change their mind after having not requested one previously.
 

largelyworried

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
2,101
Everyone who are arrested or questioned in conjunction with a crime can request free legal advice from the police stations 24/7 duty solicitor before questioning or after if they change their mind after having not requested one previously.
And if all criminal cases ended there and then, that would be a valid point.
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
And if all criminal cases ended there and then, that would be a valid point.
They get legal advice and representation throughout trial. Yes if guilty they have legal fees but then the argument becomes how comfortable are you at paying fees of someone guilty of a crime on the basis you support the same football club

Because I agree with someone we should spend money on a midfielder doesn’t mean I have a list of crimes I’m ok for them to commit.
 

Tom Cato

Godt nyttår!
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
7,582
And if all criminal cases ended there and then, that would be a valid point.
They still have access at any point.

But moreover. Since the gofundme asks for money to defend a man who is well documented through numerous video recordings to have injured a policeofficer who was at the scene to protect the peace, I cant in good conscience say that this is something I'd be ok with supporting.

If it had been a group of fans obstructing traffic or peacefully enteirng Old Trafford and sitting down at the grass and refusing to move, fine, absolutely I can support a protest like that. But there is too high a likelyhood that any money donated can go to defend a man likely to be convicted of assault for this to be appropriate.
 

largelyworried

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
2,101
They get legal advice and representation throughout trial. Yes if guilty they have legal fees but then the argument becomes how comfortable are you at paying fees of someone guilty of a crime on the basis you support the same football club
This was changed about 5 years ago i believe, now the amount you can reclaim is capped if you don't quality fully for legal aid, even on acquital.
 

dave1956

Full Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
464
Yes you do get free legal aid, however, not all barrister's chambers take on free legal aid cases, so if your case is going to be dealt with above the magistrates court level then your solicitor will be required to refer your case to a barrister. So if you decide to pay for a Barrister of your choice it can be expensive. For example one of my friends is a Barrister with chambers in the north west of England, he mainly does defence work, 4 years ago his hourly rate was £400 an hour plus expenses, i.e., travel to interview you if on remand and hotel costs if the trial was outside the area of his chambers.
My own view is that you should not expect others to pay your legal expenses if you wish to go outside the free legal aid system.
 

largelyworried

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
2,101
Yes you do get free legal aid, however, not all barrister's chambers take on free legal aid cases, so if your case is going to be dealt with above the magistrates court level then your solicitor will be required to refer your case to a barrister. So if you decide to pay for a Barrister of your choice it can be expensive. For example one of my friends is a Barrister with chambers in the north west of England, he mainly does defence work, 4 years ago his hourly rate was £400 an hour plus expenses, i.e., travel to interview you if on remand and hotel costs if the trial was outside the area of his chambers.
My own view is that you should not expect others to pay your legal expenses if you wish to go outside the free legal aid system.
Legal Aid is means tested so not everyone gets it.
 

Yakuza_devils

Full Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Messages
2,902
The protest need to go up a few level to pressure Glazers to sell asap. We need to make absolutely clear to the leeches that we want them out asap.

We need time to get prepare for next season with new onwers. It's very concerning that there is a slight chance that the leeches may stay.
 

OrcaFat

Full Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
5,672
The protest need to go up a few level to pressure Glazers to sell asap. We need to make absolutely clear to the leeches that we want them out asap.

We need time to get prepare for next season with new onwers. It's very concerning that there is a slight chance that the leeches may stay.
I don’t think they give a shit. They know full well they are not wanted. No way they “hurry up” for anybody, their message to the fans is clearly “feck off and do as you want, we’ll sell when we’re good and ready so feck off some more”.
 

El Presidente

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 1, 2018
Messages
668
I don’t think they give a shit. They know full well they are not wanted. No way they “hurry up” for anybody, their message to the fans is clearly “feck off and do as you want, we’ll sell when we’re good and ready so feck off some more”.
Yeah, it's very naive to think otherwise. We literally cancelled the biggest game in the country, got a worldwide media coverage and nothing happened in the end. If they're serious about their ridiculous 6bn price tag, no protest will make them reconsider.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,164
Location
Manchester
Yeah, it's very naive to think otherwise. We literally cancelled the biggest game in the country, got a worldwide media coverage and nothing happened in the end. If they're serious about their ridiculous 6bn price tag, no protest will make them reconsider.
Yet within 12 months of major protests and the Liverpool game being cancelled here we are. The club is officially for sale and bids are being taken.

It's naive to think the Glazers are not worried about the impact of fan discontent, protests and public boycotts on the revenue for the club, through sponsorship, which ultimately would impact their dividends.
 

El Presidente

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 1, 2018
Messages
668
Yet within 12 months of major protests and the Liverpool game being cancelled here we are. The club is officially for sale and bids are being taken.

It's naive to think the Glazers are not worried about the impact of fan discontent, protests and public boycotts on the revenue for the club, through sponsorship, which ultimately would impact their dividends.
No correlation between the two whatsoever.
We are one of the most indebted sports organisations in the world and under the current economic conditions the banks are constantly raising the interest rates.
We are running out of cash - literally down to 30m in cash reserves.
Our stadium is falling apart, our training ground needs major investment.
The squad needs significant investment if it is to compete in the richest league in the world.

But yeah, it's the protests.