Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[jeff_goldblum]

Ultimately, the question with police funding is one of value for money. In the big American cities at least, it's clear that they hit a point of diminishing returns on benefits from increasing the police budget a long time ago. 'Defund the police' is rooted in the idea that law enforcement in some areas is doing more damage to communities than it's preventing, that the reasons for that are institutional and unreformable and that the money would benefit the community more if the current structure was disbanded and the investment used to expand the roles and capabilities of other public bodies.

I think the thing a lot of both proponents and critics of the idea are missing is that in the vast majority of cases one or more of those public bodies would expand to cover some of the roles the current police do, or you'd basically just rebuild a police department from the ground up with more robust structures to stop it going rotten and with a set of roles and responsibilities that serves the needs of the community, rather than itself or politicians. In doing so you'd leave yourself with a lot more resource to tackle the causes of crime.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Apparently police in the UK are better so it’s alright. . .


62 & in his own house on his stairs!!! but UK protests are just following a trend!

*Unsure if this has been posted, if so apologies

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Nice. We're just going to barge into your home and taze you before you know what's going on.

And people argue against changing an engagement model that clearly doesn't work very well.

 

[horsechoker]

If he hadn't done anything wrong, he wouldn't have been tasered. For all the police know he could've been wielding 2 automatic shotguns which fire explosive rounds.

"So anyway, I started tazing"

 

[Maagge]

Nice. We're just going to barge into your home and taze you before you know what's going on.

And people argue against changing an engagement model that clearly doesn't work very well.

It's some weird next-level minority report shit where police know about a future crime even before the technology to know about future crimes exists.

 

[berbatrick]

I'd love to see a social experiment where an area is given over to mob rule community self governance with no police power or input. Maybe start it in Beverley Hills and Hollywood.

2 test cases:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-30659528
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

 

[George Owen]

The Tories have been defunding the police for the past 10 years with crime increasing across the board, something the left have rightly been angry about. The idea that we defund the police even further is bonkers.

That's more likely the result of the education system, social services and NHS being defunded.

 

[Foxbatt]

Question for the American members here. Where do the Hispanics stand on this issue? To me it seems that they identify themselves with the Caucasians rather than the African Americans.

 

[Wibble]

I also wonder where people get the idea that Britain isn't a racist country? Like privileged there are degrees. Institutional racism clearly exists in the UK. Not being as bad another named country or as bad as we used to be doesn't mean we aren't a racist country. Look at things like healthcare access and outcomes, income, the likelihood of being randomly stopped by the police, university entry, the likelihood of getting a job interview depending on how white your name sounds and hundreds of other things.

Where I now live is better than the UK in many ways particularly in the cities but worse in some places, particularly country towns. We are still have a horrendous blind-spot when it comes to Aboriginal people. On that issue it is interesting how common implicit bias is when it comes to race, even if many people who do have a bias would be horrified to know that. Bias doesn't automatically result in racism but it sure makes institutional racism incredibly likely.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ed-against-indigenous-australians-study-finds

Yet we think racism is a problem in America but not in Australia. Sigh.

 

[Solius]

Which doesnt mean they are racist, maybe (I dont know these people obviously) like me they are critical of the movement itself, I can't deny the good intentions from the people of the movement of being anti racist, im anti racist just to confirm with you, like every thinking individual should. Im also anti fascist by the way but im not in favour of the anti fascist movement Antifa. The message 'black lives matter' in the protests we are saying here is completely muddled now iv lost the message as its conflated with other things which in my opinion goes to far like bringing statues down and jumping on them like a mob, injuring police, causing damage, graffiti and vandalism, there is a correct way to do this. Il give a pass on them breaking the law giving that these demonstrations are happening illegally to be a matter of fact in a time when we are facing a global pandemic and have strict rules never seen before with social distancing and gatherings.

With the reasoning to you actively not speaking to your Uncle now it's sad to me you feel that way, im assuming from your statement on the basis of hes posted about more about looting etc whats the problem? Isnt that an absolute given that he, me or others would be horrified by the George Floyd incident?

Nope he’s a bigot.

 

[Gibb11]

How does a tea company acknowledging that black lives matter morally compound on anyone though? If you agree that they do, then good, its nice that more and more people are stating they do. If you dont, well, you are probably best silently stewing about it and buying from a different company.

What's dangerous is failing to address real problems and real grievances. If a tweet from a tea company does anything to help then great. If it doesn't help, then that's just another disappointment, or maybe just another tiny invisible step to something better. What it doesn't do, is anyone any damage.

Try looking at it from a different angle, if you can't say or don't want to say "black lives matter" - then ask yourself why not. Maybe try looking at what opposition to that slogan actually means, because for many of us that opposition would sound awfully like "black lives don't matter," and that's probably not what you, or your business really want to declare to the world.

Its incredibly simplistic and dangerous, they have the self righteousness and moral upper hand by stating their educating themselves however simultaneously have already taken a political position on this. im assuming since you support 'Black lives matter' going by this logic im a racist and your not. Oh and also I don't know if you know you, PG tips and Yorkshire tea have joined in into dismantling capitalism. Maybe people should educate themselves on 'Black lives matter' mission statement https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

 

[Wibble]

you still haven't answered which part of Candace Owen argument you think is correct or worth debating.

Quite a lot of it judging by this post including this gem "black people need to do a better job at not killing their own as well. I believe a police officer can't value a black life because the value of a black life is being reduced every day due to black on black violence."

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

To be clear, I do not believe the plandemic documentary. I posted it to see what the thoughts of the posters were. My argument was that whistleblowers do exist and that ideas that are on the other side should be looked at and analyzed and not just brushed under the rug as conspiracy theories.

Why? Because the government throughout history has not been truthful with everything in society. There have been cover-ups, lies, deceiving actions, etc. to hide what was being told to us.

One example I gave is Bob Lazar, who has concrete proof of his past with his work at S4 (near area 51) but the government/society did everything to erase his past (where he worked, what school he went to, etc.) in order to keep him quiet.

Charles Manson murder has also been altered with by the CIA and FBI.

These are just two small examples where the truth was altered. My question to you is why do we need to believe EVERYTHING the government tells us? Do we not learn by questioning things and being open to opposing ideas?

I agree that there is a lot of nonsense out there (misinformation with 5g, bill gates, etc). But I believe these things should be looked at analyzed on a case by case basis because not everything we are told is true.

Mainstream media is becoming less reliable, science has its biases at times - it's healthy to question things, no?



You are looking at a small part of the video and judging that. She stated that Floyd was not a martyr because he held a gun to a pregnant lady's belly. She lacks compassion because of that but of course she does not excuse what the officer did. Floyd was wrongfully murdered but her point is that he shouldn't be labelled as a hero or martyr because he wasn't a good person.

However, her main point is that black lives only matter when white people are the ones committing murder. She highlighted the stats that prove black people kill each other more than any other group.

She illustrated the stats that black people account for the minority in America, but commit the most crimes. She proved stats that black people on a per capita basis get killed less by cops than white people.

These are the points that I wanted the caf to address. If her point was that we shouldn't feel bad about Floyd then I highly disagree. She has stated that she wants justice for what happened to Floyd.

I support the black lives movement but I believe they need to do better. Everyone needs to do better. Police officers need to be trained better, we need to be educated more on black history, but black people need to do a better job at not killing their own as well. I believe a police officer can't value a black life because the value of a black life is being reduced every day due to black on black violence.

We all need to do better.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Which doesnt mean they are racist, maybe (I dont know these people obviously) like me they are critical of the movement itself, I can't deny the good intentions from the people of the movement of being anti racist, im anti racist just to confirm with you, like every thinking individual should. Im also anti fascist by the way but im not in favour of the anti fascist movement Antifa. The message 'black lives matter' in the protests we are saying here is completely muddled now iv lost the message as its conflated with other things which in my opinion goes to far like bringing statues down and jumping on them like a mob, injuring police, causing damage, graffiti and vandalism, there is a correct way to do this. Il give a pass on them breaking the law giving that these demonstrations are happening illegally to be a matter of fact in a time when we are facing a global pandemic and have strict rules never seen before with social distancing and gatherings.

With the reasoning to you actively not speaking to your Uncle now it's sad to me you feel that way, im assuming from your statement on the basis of hes posted about more about looting etc whats the problem? Isnt that an absolute given that he, me or others would be horrified by the George Floyd incident?

I have a lot of questions & issues with this post but I’ll hold back on wading in.

Why are you critical of the movement?

You mention there is a ‘correct way’ & that you’ll give them a pass for their illegal actions which is really nice of you but you do understand the differences between Protestors, Rioters & Looters - video below for reference.


You’re correct you don’t have to be racist to be against these protests but BLM have been going for some time now - I’m just not sure how someone can be critical of people saying a black life matters.

Its incredibly simplistic and dangerous, they have the self righteousness and moral upper hand by stating their educating themselves however simultaneously have already taken a political position on this. im assuming since you support 'Black lives matter' going by this logic im a racist and your not. Oh and also I don't know if you know you, PG tips and Yorkshire tea have joined in into dismantling capitalism. Maybe people should educate themselves on 'Black lives matter' mission statement https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

What about the mission statement offends you?

 

[Organic Potatoes]

Question for the American members here. Where do the Hispanics stand on this issue? To me it seems that they identify themselves with the Caucasians rather than the African Americans.

It varies. Down the street from me, someone had a giant Mexico flag at the last BLM protests to show their support of a common cause. Down in Texas, a Hispanic man was chasing protesters with a chainsaw.

You cannot lump Latinos into one generalization any more so than you can us gringos.

 

[Shane88]

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Poor guys

 

[SteveJ]

"Stop treating us like animals and thugs and start treating us with some respect ... Our legislators abandoned us. The press is vilifying us."

Aren't those words just the absolute height of irony, considering both the historical and contemporary context?

 

[V.O.]

Aren't those words just the absolute height of irony, considering both the historical and contemporary context?

It's like a question from one of those crap "who said this?" quizzes designed to catch you out.

 

[SteveJ]

"Let's face it, folks - the perpetrators are actually the victims." It's pure lawyer-logic.

 

[Foxbatt]

It varies. Down the street from me, someone had a giant Mexico flag at the last BLM protests to show their support of a common cause. Down in Texas, a Hispanic man was chasing protesters with a chainsaw.

You cannot lump Latinos into one generalization any more so than you can us gringos.

Thank you very much. What is encouraging to me as an outsider is how many Caucasians are joining the anti discrimination protest. It's beyond black lives matter now to me. It's seems it's a civil rights movement that's coming from all the decent people in the USA.
There was an interview of an African American documentary maker who got pepper sprayed in the eye while filming and he had his press pass prominently displayed.
He said what made him happy was it was the white protestors who helped him immediately and gave him first aid and it was white medics ( volunteers) who attended to him. He said there were so many white protestors that he was very encouraged by what is happening in the US.
Any steps in the right direction would be most welcome.

 

[Gibb11]

I have a lot of questions & issues with this post but I’ll hold back on wading in.

Why are you critical of the movement?

You mention there is a ‘correct way’ & that you’ll give them a pass for their illegal actions which is really nice of you but you do understand the differences between Protestors, Rioters & Looters - video below for reference.


You’re correct you don’t have to be racist to be against these protests but BLM have been going for some time now - I’m just not sure how someone can be critical of people saying a black life matters.


What about the mission statement offends you?

ok to your last point I wouldn't use the word offends but I disagree with bringing down capitalism

Thier illegal actions because https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52909814 just for reference

Im not sure of the relevance why you showing the video if im honest?

Im not critical of someone saying 'a black life matters' of course not, all races matter but its the actual movement BLM im critical of it, it has immense flaws and from it's mission demonstrates its clearly a political organisation that I cant follow.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

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Poor guys

Ah the good ol NYPD, always considered as the biggest gang in New York but they’re just misunderstood, they’re actually the victims in all this.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

To be clear, I do not believe the plandemic documentary. I posted it to see what the thoughts of the posters were. My argument was that whistleblowers do exist and that ideas that are on the other side should be looked at and analyzed and not just brushed under the rug as conspiracy theories.

Why? Because the government throughout history has not been truthful with everything in society. There have been cover-ups, lies, deceiving actions, etc. to hide what was being told to us.

One example I gave is Bob Lazar, who has concrete proof of his past with his work at S4 (near area 51) but the government/society did everything to erase his past (where he worked, what school he went to, etc.) in order to keep him quiet.

Charles Manson murder has also been altered with by the CIA and FBI.

These are just two small examples where the truth was altered. My question to you is why do we need to believe EVERYTHING the government tells us? Do we not learn by questioning things and being open to opposing ideas?

I agree that there is a lot of nonsense out there (misinformation with 5g, bill gates, etc). But I believe these things should be looked at analyzed on a case by case basis because not everything we are told is true.

Mainstream media is becoming less reliable, science has its biases at times - it's healthy to question things, no?



You are looking at a small part of the video and judging that. She stated that Floyd was not a martyr because he held a gun to a pregnant lady's belly. She lacks compassion because of that but of course she does not excuse what the officer did. Floyd was wrongfully murdered but her point is that he shouldn't be labelled as a hero or martyr because he wasn't a good person.

However, her main point is that black lives only matter when white people are the ones committing murder. She highlighted the stats that prove black people kill each other more than any other group.

She illustrated the stats that black people account for the minority in America, but commit the most crimes. She proved stats that black people on a per capita basis get killed less by cops than white people.

These are the points that I wanted the caf to address. If her point was that we shouldn't feel bad about Floyd then I highly disagree. She has stated that she wants justice for what happened to Floyd.

I support the black lives movement but I believe they need to do better. Everyone needs to do better. Police officers need to be trained better, we need to be educated more on black history, but black people need to do a better job at not killing their own as well. I believe a police officer can't value a black life because the value of a black life is being reduced every day due to black on black violence.

We all need to do better.

Your penultimate sentence is is such a doozie that it stands out above the rest of your nonsense by some margin.

I’ve taken in a lot of Akala’s interviews recently & he touches on the ‘black on black crime’ defence quite a lot in them.

He’s far more eloquent than I am so watch from 3.40 onwards. . .

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-black-violence-narrative-is-rooted-in-empire

https://www.mothersincharge.org/ is one of countless community projects in America which have long been attempting to address the issues that plagued their neighbourhoods - such as crime amongst its inhabitants [black on black crime to you]. You’re either not looking for the initiatives or you don’t know about them because you only become interested in the topics when someone shouts Black Lives Matter & you try to find exclusion.

When a white person kills a white person do we say there is a white on white crime problem or is it just a crime?

Police are there to ‘protect & serve’, if black people are killing each other they should be protecting them not kneeling on their windpipes for 9 minutes.

black lives only matter when white people are the ones committing murder.

Oh really. . .

https://www.300menmarch.com/

Violence is an issue in America, you know kind of like school shootings - A white on everybody crime - the black on black trope is one you can’t simply point to stats on.

 

[TheReligion]

Now I’ll start by stating I’m referencing the U.K. police.
Stepping away from the main gist of the thread and I apologise if this comes across as condescending. But the bit I bolded, that implication, that suggestion, the fact I’ve seen it so much across social media over the last week or so.
It has opened my eyes as to how completely ill and uninformed the general population are to the level and nature of crime that is out there and what ‘policing’ actually consists of.

People don’t seem to be able to understand that what they see as ‘policing’ is only the tip of the iceberg. Uniformed officers out on the street tackling low level street crime and the minority brutalising members of the public is actually a very small piece of what goes on.
So when people come out with stuff about dismantling and defunding the police, it blows my mind knowing what I know working in the police.

I’ve turned up to domestic incidents where victims have been choked out, battered, raped, beaten and all sorts by their partners. People get arrested, the investigation is passed on to a police detective and they tell me they’ve got 20+ similar cases, new ones rolling in on a daily basis. They tell me they’re overstretched, overworked and that they desperately need more officers.

Ive turned up to addresses and had to take children into police protection because they’ve been used as drug runners and as part of a child sexual exploitation ring and again I speak to the officers who deal with these things and they tell me again that they’re overstretched and overworked.
The world is a hideous place, people are subjected to horrific things on a daily basis.

A lot of these type of investigations take up a lot of time and effort to be able to make charges against those responsible. They also cost a lot of money. These jobs don’t just involve sitting behind a desk they require extensive work out on the field and the police officers who do this work do not lead normal lives, physically and mentally.

So yeah for you it’s easy to sit there and say imagine what life would be without any police. Or I start to wonder, why do we really need police.
Maybe have a think about the people you don’t see in the news. Have a think that your experience doesn’t equate to everyone else’s experience. Have a think about the victims to the crimes I mentioned before you start asking such questions. Have a think about the women locking themselves in their bathrooms waiting for police as their husbands are smashing down the door.

There’s rightfully been a lot of talk about those in a ‘white privileged’ position imagining themselves in positions of those who are not. And to try and understand what others are going through.
It’s time the same people dishing out this advice heed it because when you say things like “dismantle the police” “defund the police” “ACAB”.
You are failing to take into account what other victims are going through.
You are failing to take into account those officers who are not brutalising or racial profiling anyone and who are overworked and don’t have the resources they need to investigate the hideous crimes that they do.

Good post. Far more patient than I could be.

Policing is pretty thankless really and it's easy to get downbeat when some of the most vocal are those who wish to judge and criticise without ever walking a day in the shoes. Fortunately I've realised that there's still huge public support and respect for the police within the UK it's just you don't necessarily 'see' it. It is there though without a doubt.

I think it's worth some considering that the same officers you clapped on a Thursday were the same ones you were throwing bottles and fireworks at the following week. They were also the same ones that responded to London Bridge, Borough Market, Manchester Arena. The same ones that were doing CPR on blown up children and tackling murderous knife welding terrorists with a baton..

Yes it's the job and yes it's what they are paid to do but ultimately they are all human beings and perhaps they deserve a little bit more respect than being collectively called racists, scum, bastards and whatever else. Just a thought mind.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

ok to your last point I wouldn't use the word offends but I disagree with bringing down capitalism

Ok.

Thier illegal actions because https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52909814 just for reference

Can you suggest a more suitable form of [for lack of a better word] retaliation?

Some Civil Rights protests were deemed illegal btw.

We were all privy to the pictures/video of people taking in the sun at British hotspots some weeks back. People were, rightly so, called idiots but I didn’t see certain moralist RedCafe members leaning on legal jargon then. . . interesting.

I personally won’t be going to mass gatherings for some time but having posted a video of a 62 year old man being tazed in his own home by British police earlier I’m not surprised people are flouting ‘the law’ on this issue.

This whole Covid situation has highlighted that a vast majority of the British public are terrible at following rules but let’s really clamp down now eh.

Im not sure of the relevance why you showing the video if im honest?

At the beginning of the video she breaks down the rather stark difference between Protesters, Rioters & Looters - you quite obviously need a breakdown as BLM protesters wouldn’t be doing any of what you claim below.

The message 'black lives matter' in the protests we are saying here is completely muddled now iv lost the message as its conflated with other things which in my opinion goes to far like bringing statues down and jumping on them like a mob, injuring police, causing damage, graffiti and vandalism, there is a correct way to do this.

In Birmingham 4000 people turned up did their bit & went home yet you mention isolated incidents involving a minority of attendants at some protests.

I’ve not been to any but know someone who attended a peaceful, social distanced protest in Yeovil. . . no mobs, no injuring police or any of your other emotive rhetoric.

But the message is somehow muddled to you.

Im not critical of someone saying 'a black life matters' of course not, all races matter but its the actual movement BLM im critical of it, it has immense flaws and from it's mission demonstrates its clearly a political organisation that I cant follow.

Yes, All Races Matter but why is it they only matter when someone says black lives do. Where were the All Lives Matter brigade when Breonna Taylor was shot in her own home or when Ahmaud Arbery was lynched?

Let’s remove the races for a moment & look at an incident where a group of policeman murdered a man in public; where were the All Lives Matter brigade then?

Saying Black Loves Matter does not mean other lives don’t - we all know All Lives Matter people are just raising their concerns over a certain section but yes let’s label them an anti-capitalist movement & ignore the facts.

Im not critical of someone saying 'a black life matters' of course not, all races matter but its the actual movement BLM im critical of it, it has immense flaws and from it's mission demonstrates its clearly a political organisation that I cant follow.

So back on topic.

You keep falling back on these ‘flaws’ [plural]. You’re anti-anti-capitalism, we’ve got that but what else about ‘it’s mission’ can you not follow?

BLM - We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world.

Gib11 - No to anti-Capitalism!!

BLM - We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world.

Gib11 - You said anti-capitalism so I cant agree with the rest!!

I rarely agree with anything wholeheartedly, we’re on a Manchester United forum where most members go back & forth over whether the right man is managing the team but to entrench yourself to one thing you don’t agree with when other initiatives are undeniably for a greater good means we’re not really debating in good faith.

A self proclaimed coalition of black activists and organisers & you’re bothered about their anti-capitalist tagline - if you fail to see why black people maybe opposed to a capitalist structure they helped build but see few rewards from then carry on being upset about statues being thrown in lakes.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

@Leroy The Red & @TheReligion

As the resident police I’m aware of here & having read your last posts what do you think can be done by the police to help themselves? You know like we hear black communities being told to do.

Whilst we don’t see videos of shootings here it’s a daily occurrence where we see British a police not getting it quite right so what [from an internal perspective] can you do better?

 

[calodo2003]

They've got their own Wikipedia page.

Understandable, really, why they need a yearly budget in the billions, just imagine the payouts to victims in the next decade.

 

[Morpheus 7]

Reading this thread in the last few days highlights the chaos of the current world. The frustration I think goes deeper. Things seem to have boiled over now, I can't remember a time where people seemed more divided. Nobody seems to trust anyone anymore. All lives matter, there is no denying the injustice and prejudice taking place. If that's through racism, inequality, free speech and general mistrust of the people in charge.
I think the uncertainty of the future and people wanting real change is being felt. Lack of trust of leaders and law enforcement. This pandemic has been the trigger to problems that have been going on for a long time. There were people that thought this time would unite us, it certainly doesn't feel like it now. Maybe things do need to get worse before they can get better.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I wasn’t suggesting anything.
Other developed countries don’t have the violent crime rates that we have, let alone the sheer number of firearms being used on each other or on themselves. Use of force and deadly force is then inevitable. I’ve been to many countries where the police are either unarmed or have very little power/authority, and it’s because there’s no need for it. Those countries don’t have guns and have very low violent crime rates and are relatively peaceful. America is not so, unfortunately.
And yes i know full well how costly police are. Some things they can do away with as they’re unnecessary. Some things like my bulletproof vest, gun, PPEs, life-saving equipment (nar-can, cpr mask, tourniquet, first-aid kits, and those that you mentioned are kind of necessary to do my job don’t you think?

A large part of those high costs is the result of outdated militarized policies and the failed War on Drugs. One aspect that should be changed is overtime. The overtime scam has long been a part of the overpriced police. After 9/11 the NYPD was spending about $2 million per day on overtime. In 2000, NYPD hit $237 million in overtime costs while the NYFD had $49 million in overtime and the Sanitation department only $23 million in overtime. In 2019 " sworn LAFD and LAPD employees received overtime in fiscal year 2019, earning an average of $27,737 per employee. " Firefighters, you can understand because there were tons of fires last year in SoCal. But the LAPD making that much in overtime is absurd. Citizens receive no return on investment for that kind of investment in police.

Part of the reason is militarization. " Many have noted that the Homeland Security programs encourage militarism in policing and that militarism in policing is a bad thing.197 Thinking about coercion costs helps show why. BearCats, other armored vehicles, and high-powered weaponry may sometimes decrease the use of force by the police. But other times this equipment will increase the chances that force will be used or increase the severity of force, resulting in additional physical harm and the connected costs of medical care, lost income, and pain and suffering that physical injuries entail. A department with an armored vehicle might reclassify ordinary warrant execution or other police-citizen encounters as high risk in light of available resources (and the need to maintain training on the equipment), subjecting citizens to the risk of increased harm, even when the risks to officers and the public are low.198 Thus, for example, the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office in Arizona used two armored vehicles purchased with Urban Areas Security Initiative funds and a special weapons and tactics (SWAT) team to raid the house of a man suspected of cockfighting, a crime punishable by up to eighteen-months imprisonment."

The second obvious problem with police over the last 30 years has been a ridiculous amount of time and resources spent pursuing the failed "War on Drugs" and the prison industrial complex it incentivizes.

If we decriminalized drugs we could save a feck ton on unnecessary police. Shift the issue of drugs to public health where it belongs. "Cato Institute found that legalizing drugs would save the government roughly $41 billion a year in enforcing drug laws."

The carceral state that goes after marijuana smokers has been ridiculous:

Gee, thanks for spending billions locking up pot smokers while opiate deaths skyrocket:

So yeah de-militarize the police and de-criminalize drugs and we literally save billions of wasted money that goes only in the those who profit from the USA insane rates of incarceration: private prison owners, prison guards and police. We don't need as many cops as we have without the drug war and incentivizes of locking up everyone we can. We definitely don't need to be paying cops $27000/year in overtime while we have a massive homeless problem.

Here is some great work:
" At the same time, many communities attempted to benefit economically from mass incarceration by using prisons as a strategy for economic growth, making the incarceration system eerily similar to the system of slavery. Given all of the documented social and economic costs of mass incarceration (e.g., inferior labor market opportunities, increases in the racial disparity in HIV/AIDS, destruction of the family unit), it can be concluded that it has helped to maintain the economic hierarchy, predicated on race, in the United States "

 

[calodo2003]

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Poor guys

Poor sweet little snowflakes.
I wonder how many of them were seething in this clip by having to wear masks.

 

[Beans]

I’ve also seen it said, also to abolish the police but keep certain sections like detectives and urgent response units which is basically the police under a new name anyway.

I can’t see the sense in calling it defund the police when the police have been crying out for more funding for years and crime is rising (I think). Surely they need more funding and training. Now I’m thinking While typing this, that must have started in America And now uk is copying it? I’ve no idea what’s really going on or protested anymore. I fully see that black lives matter is the main part of it all but there’s also police brutality in there and Britain needs to watch where it’s copying America too much as we have different problems don’t we?

The news makes you think crime is always going up, but it's going down.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

 

[Beans]

Gonna stop you right here, buddy. ’Black on black’ violence isn’t real.

edit: Actually let me address everything, as if hasn’t been explained 100000 times already.

Black people ‘kill each other’ more than white people kill them because of PROXIMITY. Obviously if you are in a BLACK community there are other black people around you so those will be who you interact with and are in your life more than anyone else.

White people in Glasgow also kill each other as they also have a big gang problem there too but why do you never hear the phrase white on white crime? Or what about countries like Honduras and El Salvador? (which btw have some of the highest homicide rates in the world). Why do you never hear the phrase ‘Hispanic on Hispanic’ crime (I am aware that black people can be Hispanic too but black Hispanics are a minority in these countries). Or what about back in the 20th century when white Italian mafia bosses killed other white Italian mafia members? Or people like Jesse and Frank James? Why was this never known as ‘white on white’ violence?

As for your other points, the stats around crime committing are usually skewed because black people are more likely to be wrongfully arrested or accused of committing crimes they didn’t. For the crimes that they actually DO commit, socio economic factors such as poverty, poor housing, no facilities in the community etc. usually lead to crime, and like I mentioned in a previous post just the other day, these things aren’t limited to black people and black communities. Just look at the conditions of some of the communities in these South American countries that operate the largest drug cartels. And black people shouldn’t have to not kill each other for the police to see us as human. They are law enforcers, representative of the people and are therefore held at a higher standard. Lastly, white people are killed more by police because there are more white people than anyone else in America.

If a black person commits a crime against a white person, historically in this country I live in, the black community would be made to suffer in many cases, and if caught the criminal is disproportionately punished, and if they don't catch the perpetrator the cops historically had no problem framing another black person. If a black person commits a crime against a black person the crime doesn't get investigated and the black community isn't targeted for retribution. Trevor Noah talks about it here:

 

[Florida Man]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Poor guys

NYPD are one of the worst departments in the country. They can get bent and do one.

 

[entropy]

The news makes you think crime is always going up, but it's going down.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

The real culprits are white collar criminals. They do more damage than any of the criminals you and I can think of. We should be using our resources to hold them accountable.

 

[Florida Man]

Question for the American members here. Where do the Hispanics stand on this issue? To me it seems that they identify themselves with the Caucasians rather than the African Americans.

It really depends. Some are super conservative and love the GOP to the point where they are practically American Nationalists. Most of my latinx friends are very much in support of the protests — some of them definitely supportive of the more extreme measures. The factors are also on the basis of class (working, middle, upper), political, and location. NYC latinxs are going to have a vast majority disliking the police.

 

[Florida Man]

The real culprits are white collar criminals. They do more damage than any of the criminals you and I can think of. We should be using our resources to hold them accountable.

More guillotines then.

 

[utdalltheway]

lots of mis-direction and whataboutery.
The cops are at fault here and they need reforming, de-funding, whatever it is, to force change to a broken system.

 

[calodo2003]

Question for the American members here. Where do the Hispanics stand on this issue? To me it seems that they identify themselves with the Caucasians rather than the African Americans.

More regionally, many conservative Latinos live in Miami, their ideology rooted, in part, by going Republican after JFK handled the Bay of Pigs.

 

[Gibb11]

Goes against 90% of the caf I think!

 

[Bobcat]

It's this new far left movement going on now in society. Lots of social justice warriors if you don't say the politically "right" things all the time. For the record I'm on the left, but each year starting move towards the other side because of how this new far left is forming.

"The left" does have some troublesome elements, but its vastly overblown, especially when the other side has actual fascists and neo-nazis on it. With Brexit, Trump, Bolsenaro + loads of far right/authoritarian governments being formed all over Europe its no doubt the political pendulum has swung hard right the last couple of years

If you look on the "political correctness gone mad" thread here, yeah some of it is ridiculous and some of it is silly, but its not really the massive problem it being portrayed to be by some

 

[Florida Man]

Does people really believe these Antifa bullshit?

Seriously this is banana republic level of scapegoating

Dude. It’s America.