Quaranteam Draft Finals: harms vs Jimoga

Who will win the match?


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Edgar Allan Pillow

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vs


........................................ TEAM HARMS ................................................................................................. TEAM JIMOGA ....................................................

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TEAM HARMS


I go into the final with an enormous addition — Der Kaiser himself joins my side to lead them to victory. Obviously, the inclusion of Beckenbauer means that the personnel around him has to be adjusted accordingly to maximise his influence:

  • Claudio Gentile starts as a left back. «But harms, he was a right-back that could play as a stopper, don’t you know?» Just to clarify this — Gentile was equally comfortable all across the backline, often starting in different positions throughout a season, but he had a few seasons where his main starting position was on the left. Most notably — 1976/77 and 1977/78 seasons, and the former is rated as his best season by an Italian press (he was also the highest-rated Juventus player that season in a team that won Serie A & UEFA Cup). The reasoning behind this decision is quite simple — he provides additional cover to Beckenbauer so that the latter can join attack as much as he feels necessary
  • Edwards starts ahead of van Hanegem. It pains me to bench the Dutchman, but tactically it makes the most sense. Beckenbauer provides playmaking from deeper areas and Sívori’s skillset makes him invaluable in that attacking midfield role. Edwards may not give me the same exquisite passing, but he’s more or less a complete package with no flaws whatsoever (and van Hanegem was painfully slow, even though he mostly made up for it by his work-rate and positioning)

The rest is straight-forward enough — Czibor plays as a proper winger, compensating for Gentile’s conservative role at the back. He’s used to doing it — he rarely had an overlap runner next to him, his crossing with both feet was exemplary & although that doesn’t mean that we should forget about his knack for goalscoring. Jairzinho starts ahead of Carlos Alberto to replicate their partnership from 1970 and he’ll be the more forward-like of my two wide attackers. Sívori & Seeler keep their roles — Sívori as a nominal number 10, Seeler as a nominal line-leading striker, but both are free to roam & interchange if they feel the need to.

In focus: Jean Tigana

In this interesting match-up I want to highlight Jean Tigana — one of the most unique players that I’ve had a pleasure to watch, a tireless runner and a fantastic playmaker to boot. They only thing he couldn’t do was score goals — he really couldn’t. I’ve compared him to Kanté multiple times during this draft and now it looks like he’s going to be facing the original version, so I wanted to showcase the aspect of his game that puts him ahead in my eyes. Kanté has the same never-ending source of energy inside him, but you can argue that his defensive awareness is even better than that of Tigana’s — he really maxed out on both of those parameters. But the biggest difference between them is their ball-playing ability. Kanté is quite good on the ball, but if he had Tigana’s ball-playing skills he would’ve been hailed as the greatest box-to-box to ever play the game — and for a good reason. Here’s a quick statistical overview of Tigana’s involvement in the build-up of the legendary France 84’ side — all of that as the main ball-winning midfielder with more dominant playmakers ahead of him:






TEAM JIMOGA

A TRIBUTE TO HOLLAND WORLD CUP TEAM 1974

We come a long, long way together...♫♪


Tactics: 4-3-3 with rapid interchaging movement and fluidity being key elements of the side

Mentality: Aggresive and attacking




If this sentence sounds familiar, you are right because that was our intro for the first match, presenting the Danish dynamite team of the 80's who were ranked among top 20 sides in the above mentioned selection. On the very top, as the greatest and most influential side in the history came Holland of 1974, arguably the greatest side never to win the World Cup.

It is no wonder we arrived at this side in the end, because the whole team was built with possession based football in mind, with our players being adept with the ball and versatile enough to play multiple positions, with immense pressing ability.

At the start, the strong Danish core allowed us to explode forward with the famous ultra-attacking and all-action ethos, which was the trademark of the greatest Danish side ever. That vintage had the principles of total football highly ingrained throughout the team (spatial awareness, ceaseless movement and imagination of passing came right to the fore).

So, it is quite appropriate to conclude this draft with our own tribute to one of the greatest sides that ever graced a football pitch, and with Johan Cruyff at the very heart of it, leading the team in a manner which has not seen since Di Stefano's Real Madrid side (or ever after).



Johan Cruyff with iconic number 14 on his back representing his unique status in the team while being the manager on the field


What formation did Holland's Total Football team played?

For all the talk about fluidity, shape, interchanging of that team with everyone running everywhere, the team formation was quite simple in reality and quite evident once they went into defensive shape.





In its essence the team was actually pretty simple acting and playing in Cruyff mantra, reminiscent of his famous quote.

"Playing simple football is very simple, but playing simple football is the hardest thing to do"

The team was full of players who stepped out of their regular positions, but it was on their teammates to cover the zones that were vacated in those instances and they were brilliant at it.




On the other hand, it created multiple problems for the opposition who were often dragged all over the place and were extremely vulnerable on the counter if they decided to open and attack.

What were the benefits of playing such a style?

1. Cruyff placed as the central figure of the team putting him in a position where he was pretty much unplayable acting as the "on field" conductor pulling strings all over the pitch. He didn't only scored goals, he started the moves, he created openings and goals for his teammates. He had the license to roam wherever he liked to and his teammates thrived in his unique ability to create space and chances for them.

2. It elevated every single player in that team as they thrived in space that was created for them by the system itself and Cruyff in it;

3. The opposition struggled to get out of their own third, let alone their half at times and if they opted for more adventurous or aggressive approach they were dismantled and overwhelmed once the ball was taken on the counters. As a consequence of such approach the Dutch backline often didn't have much to do during the match because the ball very rarely even came in their area.


Player roles and fits in this system

Johan Cruyff
and Rob Rensenbrink reprise their usual roles in the team and they don't need any further explanation. Rensenbrink had one of the all-time great WC performances of his own 4 years later in Argentina, but even in this version from 1974 he was unplayable at times growing as the tournament went further. The only games in which Holland failed to get on the scoresheet was which Rensenbrink wasn't on the pitch (Sweden) and after he was substituted in the last 45 minutes of the final because of an untimely injury.

Preben Elkjaer slots into the right forward role in attack and it is hard to find more fitting players for such a role. Elkjaer thrived playing off Laudrup in that fluid Denmark side and scored 37 goals in 60 matches or 0,61 goal per game. at his peak for that side (which is a brilliant record by any standard). Here he can maximize his relentless energy, constant movement, tendency to drift onto the flanks and predatory instincts to full extent, with a multi faceted attack offering more avenues for the rampaging Dane.

The high octane engine room trio are a great combination with all of them complete midfield dynamos - being extremely agressive and yet, somewhat distinctive in the way they operated (similar to the Holland trio). The irrepressible Lerby who allied sheer physicality with a sublime left foot. Breitner, arguably one of the greatest ball playing B2Bs, whose talismanic impact was pretty much unheard of for a B2B midfielder. It'll be a huge disservice to Kante to portray him as a 'mere industrious defensive presence', when his exploits for Leicester, France & Chelsea at the biggest stages, quite clearly paint a different picture. Never has there been a midfielder who was capable of stifling midfields nearly single handedly, playing alongside the likes of Drinkwater, Jorginho and Pogba, all whilst making his presence felt all over the engine room as a dynamic presence. This midfield, and the rest of the team, will run all day and bulldoze you to the ground.

Wim Jansen's main responsibility was to cover, break attacks, put out fires wherever they went on the field. In one game he won the freekick on the edge of the opposition penalty area and 90 seconds later he broke the opposition counter at the very opposite end. That is the role for which Kante, often named as a one-man midfield, was born for with his relentless energy and remarkable ball-winning nous.

The rearguard is made up of a brilliant pair of cerebral yet physically gifted fullbacks in Philip Lahm and Branko Zebec who are well known for their immense stamina and the rare ability to participate equally in both phases of the game. Laurent Blanc and Paul Mcgrath form a complementary and fearsome partnership - being almost impossible to beat in the air, yet being brilliant on the ball. They blend a perfect combination of winning mentality, leadership, physicality and brilliant positioning which will prove hard to break, but at the same time being able to provide another attacking outlet to this team if the space opens up. Both were also proactive defenders who loved defending, but also to put their team on the front foot once they won the ball. Their job will also be made easier by that immense midfield that is in front of them.

All of the players above excelled and played in multiple positions throughout their careers which is critical to implementing this tactic.

The Mighty Magyar Gyula Groscis who was one of the trailblazers as a sweeper-keeper for that legendary Hungarian side of the fifties will be a formidable presence between the sticks.
 

harms

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Pirlo right after being drafted by a team with Kanté and Lerby



Watching them play in the final without even making 1 appearance throughout the draft

 

harms

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The 1974 World Cup final obviously comes to mind after the last reinforcements — with me getting Beckenbauer and J-men getting Cruyff. A lot has been said about that game over the years — in fact, I feel like it's one of the most discussed games of all-time, if not the one.

But for all the drama of Breitner's penalty and Müller's late winner, there was one man who had kept West Germany in that game literally single-handedly — Sepp Maier.
He made save after countless save from Cruyff and co to help win the trophy. “Without Sepp we would never have won the World Cup,” the winning captain Franz Beckenbauer speaking highly of his adored team-mate. “Maier saved marvelously, at least half a dozen of unsavable ones!” said Schön.

It was not an exception either — at full after beating Poland to secure a place in the World Cup final in front of their own fans, coach Helmut Schön ran straight to his goalkeeper Sepp Maier. The gesture said it all. Never before had the man between the sticks played so well for his country, and it could not have come at a more crucial time. Gerd Müller’s late strike won the game, but Maier was the hero, making save after sensational save to keep the Poles, who came out of the traps flying knowing they had to win to make the final, at bay.

We often talk about keepers being underrated in this draft, and now we can do something about it. I really don't think that our teams have any huge weaknesses at this point and I really like the way that they had set up for this match... But only one of us have a keeper capable of putting up a Maier-esque performance in this final. I've watched a lot of Grosics as I adore that Hungarian team and he was certainly an above-average keeper with a notably brave and inventive sweeping style, but he never struck to me as this dominant and almost mythically unbeatable figure a la Yashin (from his era), Maier or Schmeichel — the figure that intimidates the opposition by its presence alone. While I have exactly that — a keeper with arguably the most presence on the field out of all keepers in history, and a consistent match-winner on his own, Peter fecking Schmeichel :drool:

Big Pete for the win!

 

Jim Beam

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Pirlo right after being drafted by a team with Kanté and Lerby



Watching them play in the final without even making 1 appearance throughout the draft

:D

Lovely team harms as always. You even have something up your sleeve as usual in Gentile on LB. Don't see much issue with it and he will certainly provide additional cover for Beckenbauer and add more steel. Still, a defensive move and I think Czibor wouldn't mind a bit more help on his side though.

Watched the final yesterday again and I agree with your sentiments about Meier (although Vogts and Muller were exceptional too... Vogts not just proved on the defensive side, but started some dangerous moves being in a more advanced position at times). We obviously don't have problems with your goalkeeper having a lot to do and if that's your way of going through it it's much welcomed on our side. He will need to have one of those nights, but if he is busy, half of the job is already done if you ask me.

As for the final itself I think it's painted in very strange light (in terms of "evil, pragmatic Germany"). Vogts with man marking on Cruyff did a brilliant job, but Holland were well prepared for it. It is well documented that Cruyff said they expected it. Think that, on the overall balance of play, it was a game of fine margins which could have gone either way. I also thought that Holland was unusually timid and reserved after that 1st goal. Maybe the early goal, maybe Germany had just a bit more experience for such a high profile game and being on their home soil. Cruyff had a pretty solid game despite Vogts excellent job I thought, but the rest just didn't turn up with Rep missing the crucial chances. You could see him even pointing and shouting on few occasions to his teammates to move into space he created during the game.

I don't see such a game here, Cruyff without a dedicated marker can run riot and be in his element despite that midfield and defence. And along with him the whole team pushing it to the highs of the matches before the mentioned final (and it was really a glorious spectacle in pretty much every game with Cruyff leading the team in a way not seen from Di Stefano days or ever after to repeat the part of OP). I think he didn't have his fingerprints in only 3 goals of Holland in that tournament which is just remarkable. And that is not mentioning all other brilliant moves to set up numerous chances or creating dangerous openings, either for himself or for his teammates.

One thing is certain. We will play on the front foot and make the game a high octane affair and I think that works in our advantage. We also added Breitner to help him this time!

Cruyff had one previous brilliant game against Beckenbauer which isn't that talked about, but it definitely deserves a mention here. I know you are aware of it it, but still, just for the record.


Also, nice search about Tigana, but for me Kante now pretty much moved a level after brilliantly performed even in a possession based team aside Jorginho in that Chelsea side (in fact, he is more or less vital for them despite the great collective). Not only was he always so wonderfully press resistant and dominant in his tackling and regaining possession, but he is also proven to be highly effective to kick start attacking plays once the ball is won, either by breaking the lines or through those quick passes which turn defence into attack in a space of a second and just what this teams needs. For me, that's exactly what still makes him somewhat underrated and am sure that by the time he retires he will have a special place when it comes to defensive b2b players. Just a machine of a player.

Kante completed on average 87.40% of his 1033 completed passes under Lampard, and 74 of those passes were progressive passes, which are defined as a pass that travels 10+ yards towards the opponent’s goal.

Kante carried the ball 900 times under Lampard this season and 80 of those were progressive carries.
And this was all under Lampard who was a mess and then performed on a majestic level in Chelsea CL winning campaign, especially in those deciding matches against Madrid and City where he was MOTM.


Will try to find it, but I think he is often around 90% completed passes under Tuchel. We see him as a perfect player here to add to the machine that its front of him with Cruyff leading the way.
 
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harms

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I don't see such a game here, Cruyff without a dedicated marker can run riot and be in his element despite that midfield and defence.
As much as I love him, I just can't agree with it. False 9 has a possibility of completely breaking the defensive system that is not expecting it or has no idea how to deal with it — in a way that probably no other tactical move in history did, from Hidegkuti against England to Messi against Real Madrid 6 decades apart. But false 9 does so much damage exactly when no one knows how to deal with such player — should a defender stick with him and be dragged into midfield or should he stop at some point with defensive midfielder taking him off his hands (which is bound to break sooner or later if false 9 is good enough).

The problem is... my system is perfectly suited to it. Gentile & Vierchowod seamlessly cover for Beckenbauer's arrays in midfield — in this case not only offensive ones but also defensive ones to track Cruyff's movement. Edwards had built his name and incredible reputation that holds water even if we discount the "what if" romanticising by playing wing-half ahead of a back three — and the only full game that we have of him sees him dropping back to centre back position after United are left with 10 men and absolutely bossing it (even more surprising as by @GodShaveTheQueen 's research, if I'm not mistaken, he actually haven't actually played there before that). There's literally no other player in history I'd rather have playing against Cruyff as a false 9 but Beckenbauer — I didn't want to put a Vogts-like marker on him (I had the perfect option in Gentile — a player with the reputation of arguably the greatest and toughest man-markers in history), because it takes away a lot from the team. But when Beckenbauer finds himself "dragged up" to midfield, he's perfectly at ease there... and by backline is still a very touch nut to crack even for such fearsome forwards like Elkjær and Rensenbrink.

Re: Ajax vs Bayern

You are well within your right to mention Ajax - Bayern game from 1972/73 (in fact it gets unfairly forgotten at times with Beckenbauer "beating" Cruyff on the most important stage a year later) — but that game tells us less about how the things may turn out in this encounter than the 1974 final does.

My stance on that Bayern side is probably well-known — I've never shied away from saying that their European Cup treble gets them unfair reputation of being one of the greatest club sides ever & more or less equals to 1970's Ajax. They were not. I'm not even sure that I can say with confidence that they were better than Borussia Mönchengladbach — but Bayern were lucky in Europe and Borussia wasn't. Comparison between Ajax and Bayern was mirrored in 2010's — with Pep's Barça being Michels' Ajax and Real Madrid's European conquerors being Bayern of the 70's. A very, very good side with true all-time greats like Beckenbauer & Müller (Cristiano & a bunch of Madrid stars) but still a good level below the all-time great side.

West Germany, on the other hand, had combined both Bayern Münich & Borussia Mönchengladbach (plus Overath and a few players from other sides, of course), forming one of the greatest international sides of all-time (although they've peaked in 1972, not 1974), capable of facing Dutch Clockwork Orange in a fair fight and beating them. And this game, harms vs Jimbo, is a game of a similar calibre, of two absolutely stocked sides that can match each other blow by blow.
 

harms

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Also, nice search about Tigana, but for me Kante now pretty much moved a level after brilliantly performed even in a possession based team aside Jorginho in that Chelsea side (in fact, he is more or less vital for them despite the great collective). Not only was he always so wonderfully press resistant and dominant in his tackling and regaining possession, but he is also proven to be highly effective to kick start attacking plays once the ball is won, either by breaking the lines or through those quick passes which turn defence into attack in a space of a second and just what this teams needs. For me, that's exactly what still makes him somewhat underrated and am sure that by the time he retires he will have a special place when it comes to defensive b2b players. Just a machine of a player.
He's been a very useful cog in different sides, from Leicester/France to Tuchel's Chelsea, but I still find him nothing more than simply tidy in possession and the stats above don't really convince me otherwise. And even that took a lot of time — he had really struggled under Sarri's management when he was suddenly asked to perform a more creative and ball-playing role, but that's probably a moot point considering that he isn't asked to play that role in your side. Still, there's a huge gap between being tidy and being outstandingly brilliant at something and Kanté & Tigana stand on the opposite sides of that gap for me (all that as box-to-box midfielders, mind you, I'm not claiming that Tigana can control the game in a way that Scholes or Pirlo can). Kanté is better defensively though — while both possess equally unlimited energy, Kanté is certainly more skilful in tackle & more intuitive in his defensive positioning.
 

harms

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Watched the final yesterday again and I agree with your sentiments about Meier (although Vogts and Muller were exceptional too... Vogts not just proved on the defensive side, but started some dangerous moves being in a more advanced position at times). We obviously don't have problems with your goalkeeper having a lot to do and if that's your way of going through it it's much welcomed on our side. He will need to have one of those nights, but if he is busy, half of the job is already done if you ask me.
Nice of you to twist my words that way, but my point was, when the moment comes, do I trust my keeper to bail my team out? Absolutely.
Do I trust that Grosics would rush out to outjump Seeler to clear a crucial header? No. He was a good keeper, but not good enough to decide games of this calibre.

By the way, here's Seeler putting 2 goals past Grosics with Hungary playing West Germany out of the pitch:
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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This is way too difficult to separate. Might as well get down to Schmeichel vs Grosics but the 50's lover in me can't even give that to the Big Dane.

Might lead to sad voting numbers for a grand final.

I don't know why Jimoga wanted Messi ahead of Cruyff. Like Cruyff a lot more there. I usually don't like to see Kante as a DM but even he looks at home in a dynamic Cruyff team. Brilliant team for a final.

For harms, the genius move that ties everything perfectly together is Gentile at LB. While covering for the Kaiser is obvious, the balance on the wings is perfect too. Sivori who tilted left works really well supporting Czibor while Jairzinho would like the support of an attacking full back.

Hopefully a lot to read in the next few hours before I can vote.
 

Jim Beam

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The problem is... my system is perfectly suited to it. Gentile & Vierchowod seamlessly cover for Beckenbauer's arrays in midfield — in this case not only offensive ones but also defensive ones to track Cruyff's movement. Edwards had built his name and incredible reputation that holds water even if we discount the "what if" romanticising by playing wing-half ahead of a back three — and the only full game that we have of him sees him dropping back to centre back position after United are left with 10 men and absolutely bossing it (even more surprising as by @GodShaveTheQueen 's research, if I'm not mistaken, he actually haven't actually played there before that). There's literally no other player in history I'd rather have playing against Cruyff as a false 9 but Beckenbauer — I didn't want to put a Vogts-like marker on him (I had the perfect option in Gentile — a player with the reputation of arguably the greatest and toughest man-markers in history), because it takes away a lot from the team. But when Beckenbauer finds himself "dragged up" to midfield, he's perfectly at ease there... and by backline is still a very touch nut to crack even for such fearsome forwards like Elkjær and Rensenbrink.
I didn't even thought you will think any differently and don't get me wrong, they are a tough nut to break indeed. But Cruyff was very unique in that sense, most people have a clear image of some Cruyff moment in that tournament. The turn against Sweden, his perfect technique to ease that pass from Van Hanegem against Argentina, wonderful run on the right side to provide a beautiful assist for Neeskens, etc, etc... For me, it is the 2nd goal against Bulgaria in the deciding match of group stage 1. The man went and sprinted to take the throw in deep in Holland area just so he could release Rensenbrink on the counter. A trivial thing, but it defines Cruyff so well. Even in such occasions the first thing that went on his mind was how to immediately hurt you.

That's not to mention those standing with a ball and a sudden burst of speed in an instant to run past you. Am well aware he will find it tough as I respect that unit of yours, but it is one thing to close your channels very well and another when you have to deal with someone like Cruyff with all of his teammates waiting to exploit it.

The biggest thing I see in the match though is how much your team will have to be aware in the defensive phase and how much they will commit to that. It is not an easy thing to go through that experience for the whole 90 minutes. And me being on the front foot is pretty much certain here.

Also, if Cruyff will find it tough, so will Beckenbauer against that unit going forward.

He's been a very useful cog in different sides, from Leicester/France to Tuchel's Chelsea, but I still find him nothing more than simply tidy in possession and the stats above don't really convince me otherwise. And even that took a lot of time — he had really struggled under Sarri's management when he was suddenly asked to perform a more creative and ball-playing role, but that's probably a moot point considering that he isn't asked to play that role in your side. Still, there's a huge gap between being tidy and being outstandingly brilliant at something and Kanté & Tigana stand on the opposite sides of that gap for me (all that as box-to-box midfielders, mind you, I'm not claiming that Tigana can control the game in a way that Scholes or Pirlo can). Kanté is better defensively though — while both possess equally unlimited energy, Kanté is certainly more skilful in tackle & more intuitive in his defensive positioning.
He's been a vital and irreplaceable part of the greatest team achivement in EPL history, World Cup win and now CL win, so yes you are kind of underestimate him. His ability to turn possession into attack is quite simply brilliant and unmatched. Most importantly he will provide me every bit of what makes him that great. I am not saying he will make and score goals here (like you mentioned), but he will contribute and play in his "comfort zone". And that zone being harassing, breaking plays and switching the play immediately on the other side in the quickest way possible. This team suits him to the teeth in that sense. I value Tigane offensive game higher obviously, but some of that game may suffer when he will also have to commit himself to closing multiple gaps and problems that will constantly open when dealing with our attack.

Nice of you to twist my words that way, but my point was, when the moment comes, do I trust my keeper to bail my team out? Absolutely.
Do I trust that Grosics would rush out to outjump Seeler to clear a crucial header? No. He was a good keeper, but not good enough to decide games of this calibre.

By the way, here's Seeler putting 2 goals past Grosics with Hungary playing West Germany out of the pitch:
Hey, I had to use that very opening post "against" you when you pretty much called him to be a difference maker in this game and bail you like Maier did. You obviously admitted that he will have his hands full. And as I say, we are welcoming that. No doubt, he will have.

Nice goals, cracking player btw. I love him.
 
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Šjor Bepo

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Nice of you to twist my words that way, but my point was, when the moment comes, do I trust my keeper to bail my team out? Absolutely.
Do I trust that Grosics would rush out to outjump Seeler to clear a crucial header? No. He was a good keeper, but not good enough to decide games of this calibre.

By the way, here's Seeler putting 2 goals past Grosics with Hungary playing West Germany out of the pitch:
ahh memories of making the Hidegkuti vid, that alone is worth a vote!
also, how shit is that german keeper in the penalty :lol:
 

Jim Beam

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This is way too difficult to separate. Might as well get down to Schmeichel vs Grosics but the 50's lover in me can't even give that to the Big Dane.
We even benched Buffon to fully commit ourselves here. Well deserved for some extra points in that sense. :wenger:

No seriously, when you play this team, you play Grosics, pure and simple. And he was a historic great in his own right as a part of that Hungary machine in the 50's.
 

Jim Beam

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I don't know why Jimoga wanted Messi ahead of Cruyff. Like Cruyff a lot more there. I usually don't like to see Kante as a DM but even he looks at home in a dynamic Cruyff team. Brilliant team for a final.
We didn't see at first sight what team is opening for us with Cruyff tbh.
 

harms

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He's been a vital and irreplaceable part of the greatest team achivement in EPL history, World Cup win and now CL win, so yes you are kind of underestimate him.
I don't think that I underestimate his overall stature, which those awards are an indication of — even with the anti-current bias that I have he's already somewhere in the Davids/Tigana zone for me and it's very likely that he'll end up just below Rijkaard in the "defensive b2b" sub-category (although I may be overestimating him slightly in this hypothetical by trying to compensate for my anti-current bias).

But as for his ball-playing skills... they are good enough for him not to look out of place. But if a player that didn't possess Kanté's defensive quality had them, no one would talk about them.

Hey, I had to use that very opening post "against" you when you pretty much called him to be a difference maker in this game and bail you like Maier did. You obviously admitted that he will have his hands full. And as I say, we are welcoming that. No doubt, he will have.
Nope. I mentioned an example from a game that is going to be mentioned anyway (as a showcase Beckenbauer vs Cruyff example), where a keeper ended up being the most influential player overall — to highlight that keepers can and often do become the difference even in games that are filled with world-class or even all-time great footballers.

Schmeichel can decide that game for me not only by bailing me out time and again but also by keeping out one big chance like Casillas did against Robben in 2010 — with Grosics not being able to do that on the other side of the pitch.

Casillas — Stekelenburg in 2010, Maier — Jongbloed in 1974, Schmeichel — Illgner in 1992... it's not a panacea, of course, you often get games where attacking genius overshadows the difference in goalkeeper's quality (like van Basten sealing the '88 final with Dasayev on paper had an upper hand in this "duel" with van Breukelen), but there were so many finals that were decided by one team's keeper having that extra gear that paid off in crucial moments.

 

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Pirlo right after being drafted by a team with Kanté and Lerby



Watching them play in the final without even making 1 appearance throughout the draft

Shame Van Hanegem is missing too. That would have been 5 players from that classic '74 WC final on the pitch! That midfield is excellent though and I can understand the rationale behind it. Did expect a midfield trio with Van Hanegem featuring too, but do know you are a big fan of Siviori.

Might as well get down to Schmeichel vs Grosics but the 50's lover in me can't even give that to the Big Dane.
Just to echo Jim, as Grosics seems to be coming under some fire here. Yeah Grocsics might not be individually as good as an Schmikes but we benched a better goalie than Schmeichel to play Grocsics here for the system, just a matter of fit over pure quality. No different to harms benching Marzolini or Benarrivo for Gentile, tough but the right tactical choices in my opinion (still would have preferred Marzolini, who was disciplined enough and would have looked more at home in that backline - subjective opinion though). But yes, Schmeichel is a match winner no doubt, so point taken.

I don't know why Jimoga wanted Messi ahead of Cruyff. Like Cruyff a lot more there. I usually don't like to see Kante as a DM but even he looks at home in a dynamic Cruyff team. Brilliant team for a final.
We had a different plan initially with Messi, which we'll post after the match

It'll be a tight match which will go down to the wire and both teams are great, so kudos @harms. Don't really have much if anything negative to say about it. Beckenbauer looks amazing in that backline and that'stwo of my favorites defenders in Der Kaiser and Carlos Alberto. I better stop right there before jim decides to fire me :lol:
 

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I don't think that I underestimate his overall stature, which those awards are an indication of — even with the anti-current bias that I have he's already somewhere in the Davids/Tigana zone for me and it's very likely that he'll end up just below Rijkaard in the "defensive b2b" sub-category (although I may be overestimating him slightly in this hypothetical by trying to compensate for my anti-current bias).
That's fair.

But as for his ball-playing skills... they are good enough for him not to look out of place. But if a player that didn't possess Kanté's defensive quality had them, no one would talk about them.
Of course, but when you count his defensive qualities along with that ability to turn the wave against you in an instant with his short passing once the ball is won (or penetrate through your lines), then you get a pretty unique player in that sense. And one who would thrive in this system most importantly.

Nope. I mentioned an example from a game that is going to be mentioned anyway (as a showcase Beckenbauer vs Cruyff example), where a keeper ended up being the most influential player overall — to highlight that keepers can and often do become the difference even in games that are filled with world-class or even all-time great footballers.
I just thought it was funny you doing almost a 'hail Mary' in your opening post mate. And the difference isn't even that big in any case, in fact it is quite marginal looking at the history books... It is not like we have Jongbloed here. Grosics is among top 20 keepers in history by many accounts and again he is more suited being here then Buffon. Hell, we would bench Schmeichel when I think about it and play Grosics for the same reasons.

I mean, you are mentioning Casillas and many people will put Grosics as a better keeper on their list. The margin in those games you mention is not nearly the case here and as you say in many games the goalkeeper can't make a difference when facing extraordinary quality on the other side.
 
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Jim Beam

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Sorry, didn't see Joga post. Didn't mean to double... As I have some family duties, will come back later. And I said most of initial thoughts anyway.
 

harms

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That's fair.



Of course, but when you count his defensive qualities along with that ability to turn the wave against you in an instant with his short passing once the ball is won (or penetrate through your lines), then you get a pretty unique player in that sense. And one who would thrive in this system most importantly.



I just thought it was funny you doing almost a 'hail Mary' in your opening post mate. And the difference isn't even that big in any case, in fact it is quite marginal looking at the history books... It is not like we have Jongbloed here. Grosics is among top 20 keepers in history by many accounts and again he is more suited being here then Buffon. Hell, we would bench Schmeichel when I think about it and play Grosics for the same reasons.

I mean, you are mentioning Casillas and many people will put Grosics as a better keeper on their list. The margin in those games you mention is not nearly the case here and as you say in many games the goalkeeper can't make a difference when facing extraordinary quality on the other side.
Maybe it's just me. As you can imagine, I've seen pretty much everything there is to see with Grosics and he just never did it for me.

It's certainly a point that invites a further discussion that far transcends this game, but I always thought that goalkeeper is a position that improved the most drastically over the years. I'm not even going to dig deep into the rational arguments that explain this — I'll just go with the gut feeling. There are only 2 keepers from the 50s/1st half of the 60's (after that it becomes way better with the likes of Jennings, Banks etc. reaching their peaks) that I would put straight into today's top team without a second thought — Beara and Yashin. Grosics was good at sweeping the ball — surprisingly good for the time, but overall I've just never been enamoured with him, at least going by the footage that still exist. He was very lucky to be a part of the team that elevated him to a historical stature that his talent didn't deserve*

*I feel like I'm putting this remark in every sentence, but I'll mention it again: only going by the footage that is still available for us


As for the Hail Mary post — this is the only difference between the teams where I feel like one side has a definite advantage.
 

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I have zero problems talking about keepers as I've explained and as am pretty certain yours will have much more problems. You also have every right to don't rate Grosics highly. As a keeper playing in a highly attacking team you will also have some blunders at times and when it comes to defensive players so long ago in history the footage will often show you goals against them.

However you can't deny the overall appreciation for the man and him being revolutionary when it comes to goalkeeping position. Funnily, you also mention how much that position improved over the years when it was down to him to implement the very style that the best of today have, so he even contributed in that sense. He is, and I mean pretty much everywhere, regarded as one of the greatest goalkeepers ever. Certainly, and at the very least in top 30.

Bayern Munich’s Manuel Neuer is the modern evolution of this style, with his performance against Algeria in the 2014 World Cup perhaps the best example of a sweeper keeper football has ever seen.

The man who developed the sweeper keeper style – and indeed innovated the goalkeeper position itself – is often forgotten in history, despite playing in one of the most fabled teams in football, the Mighty Magyars of Hungary

...

It was around this time that the Hungarian national team became the most dominant team in the world, with Grosics a key component. Effectively playing an attacking 3-2-1-4, with the back three spread wide, an increasingly mobile goalkeeper was needed, and Grosics was perfect for the role.
The Mighty Magyars arrived at the 1952 Olympic Games unbeaten for two years and continued their run, defeating Yugoslavia 2-0 in the final. The following year, the Aranycsapat took part in the Central European Championship, an early forerunner of the European Championship, and won the competition, defeating Italy 3-0 in the final with two goals from Puskás and one from deep-lying forward Nándor Hidegkuti.
This run set up what was billed in the press as the ‘Game of the Century’ in November 1953. The Magyars would face England at Wembley, where they had never been beaten by foreign opposition. In reality, England were a waning force, but the English didn’t know that. It would be Grosics’ coming out party.


Most know that the Hungarians embarrassed England at Wembley in 1953 – both technically and tactically – winning 6-3 and bamboozling England’s outdated W-M formation, with the deployment of Hidegkuti as a deep-lying forward – effectively a modern attacking midfielder – leaving the English defence with the classic conundrum of whether to step up and leave a gap in defence, or retain shape and allow Hidegkuti the freedom of the Wembley pitch.
Many also remember the classic goal scored by Puskás where he collects the ball in the area, evades England captain Billy Wright’s slide tackle by rapidly dragging the ball back, before firing past Birmingham City’s Gil Merrick. However, what is forgotten is the performance of Grosics; he introduced England to a new style of goalkeeping, one that was proactive and more about judgment than about getting your angles right. It couldn’t have been more different to the approach of Merrick and other British goalkeepers at the time.
The English confusion towards Grosics is best exemplified by the response of commentator Kenneth Wolstenholme when Grosics charges out of his box to meet a pass by England’s Jimmy Dickinson and clears the ball with impeccable timing. Unsure of what he’s just seen, Wolstenholme simply says, “Unorthodox, but effective.”

Gyula Grosics died in 2014 aged 88, a rebel both in terms of his politics and his play on the pitch. He revolutionised the position of goalkeeper and set in motion a chain of events that would lead to goalkeepers such as Manuel Neuer
It looks to me more as clutching at straws tbh, especially when the very difference maker you have would end on our bench.
Oh, and I think he didn't he got the nickname "Black Panther" because he liked to go to the ZOO. Plenty of world-class saves in here, especially further you go and most of all a very commanding and proactive presence in the box.


But again, it is absolutely fair to try and use any advantage you think you have.

I see us as a far more expansive and dangerous team and the one in which the whole plethora of players looks absolutely at home which will elevate their game. That along with a GOAT in the very environment that made him a GOAT. Personally, and in a game of fine margins, I would get a nod to the team who is more likely to score and cause more problems.
 

harms

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It looks to me more as clutching at straws tbh, especially when the very difference maker you have would end on our bench.
Benching your best keeper doesn’t give you an advantage neither in the game nor in the argument :)
 

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I love the Jimoga shape. Absolutely gets the best out of Breitner, Zebec, Lerby and suits the attackers well. Kante fits the 1974 ethos like a glove and his qualities would be amplified in such a set-up. I don’t see him responsible for DLP duties in kickstarting moves as the 3 around him will want to get the ball off the defence, but that too should enable his pressing game.

Only quibble is I get the Grosics pick, but I’m struggling to rationalise it with Gianluigi fecking Buffon sitting on the bench. I know he was an early sweeper keeper, but I’d almost guarantee just about any post pass back schooled keeper (bar De Gea) will shit on any oldie in terms of ball skills. To respect the brass balls of the pick however, I’ll look into Grosics more as my immediate impressions aren’t that hot compared to his reputation. May of course be a side issue with bigger stylistic battles at stake in the heart of the pitch.

Harms looks really good as well. Can’t fault it.
 
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Šjor Bepo

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Only quibble is I get the Grosics pick, but I’m struggling to rationalise it with Gianluigi fecking Buffon sitting on the bench. I know he was an early sweeper keeper, but I’d almost guarantee just about any post pass back schooled keeper (bar De Gea) will shit on any oldie in terms of ball skills. To respect the brass balls of the pick however, I’ll look into Grosics more as my immediate impressions aren’t that hot compared to his reputation. May of course be a side issue with bigger stylistic battles at stake in the heat of the battle.
surely we are giving keepers same benefit of the doubt as outfield players in terms of improving with time, if not then 90% of the oldies should be nowhere near any drafts.
 

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Preben Elkjaer slots into the right forward role in attack and it is hard to find more fitting players for such a role. Elkjaer thrived playing off Laudrup in that fluid Denmark side and scored 37 goals in 60 matches or 0,61 goal per game. at his peak for that side (which is a brilliant record by any standard). Here he can maximize his relentless energy, constant movement, tendency to drift onto the flanks and predatory instincts to full extent, with a multi faceted attack offering more avenues for the rampaging Dane.
That is really impressive when you take into account how miserly European international football was at the time - more big games (pre-eastern Europe break-up), fewer stat padders against cannon fodder, and defensive football at its zenith.
 

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Only quibble is I get the Grosics pick, but I’m struggling to rationalise it with Gianluigi fecking Buffon sitting on the bench. I know he was an early sweeper keeper, but I’d almost guarantee just about any post pass back schooled keeper (bar De Gea) will shit on any oldie in terms of ball skills. To respect the brass balls of the pick however, I’ll look into Grosics more as my immediate impressions aren’t that hot compared to his reputation. May of course be a side issue with bigger stylistic battles at stake in the heart of the pitch.
Am blaming you... well in a broader sense.

If you are going down the sexy football route, it's much better to go balls deep and go the full hog
It is an older quote from one of my first matches. In short, if am going with the theme, I like to fully commit.
But what I find baffling is that we didn't put some no name there. It is one of the greatest and most influential keepers in history who fits with the team and personally I really think it's a nice touch (along with having more fitting attributes if we transcend his game in modern time). It never crossed my mind that someone will see it as an issue as I used him before in possession based teams with zero complaints. And more so, there is no real argumentation on why he would be a weak link here based on his actual appearances.

Again, if it is some random bloke I would understand it. This way certainly not.


That is really impressive when you take into account how miserly European international football was at the time - more big games (pre-eastern Europe break-up), fewer stat padders against cannon fodder, and defensive football at its zenith.
Yeah, he really thrived playing of Laudrup in that fluid and attacking Denmark side. Can see him being fully in his element here. Rep was brilliant in that WC (at least until the final and even then he had 3 clear chances) thriving with all the space that Cruyff provided. Elkjaer undoubtedly provides even more in the attacking sense considering his attributes.
 

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Since we are talking about goalkeepers, Sepp Meier answer when asked about his worst game...:)

The European Cup quarter final against Ajax in Amsterdam. I messed about too much with my gloves during the game. We only had gloves made of wool back in those days. But I had created my own special versions due to the smooth ball and wet footing – with pimples like on table tennis rackets – and I was certain that they would save everything. Well, we lost 4-0, and I threw all my gear into the canal. My boots, gloves and shirt are still swimming around somewhere in the North Sea. It clearly was a good ideathough, as they all play with goalkeeper gloves now. I was a pioneer. It unfortunately wasn’t possible for me to copyright them.
 

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It is an older quote from one of my first matches. In short, if am going with the theme, I like to fully commit.
But what I find baffling is that we didn't put some no name there. It is one of the greatest and most influential keepers in history who fits with the team and personally I really think it's a nice touch (along with having more fitting attributes if we transcend his game in modern time). It never crossed my mind that someone will see it as an issue as I used him before in possession based teams with zero complaints. And more so, there is no real argumentation on why he would be a weak link here based on his actual appearances.

Again, if it is some random bloke I would understand it. This way certainly not.
In raising that I suppose some will respect the bravery of the pick, while others will wonder why Gigi is on the bench.

Fair enough though. All that matters is who is on the park and he's a credible enough keeper whose standing will be elevated by being a clean thematic fit.
 

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Yeah, count me among the likely non-voters because its just so hard to separate these sides. Both managers did a remarkable job this job in evolving their sides and I really like both teams as they stand. I look at harms and love that Jairzinho-Carlos Alberto flank but then I see the Eljaer-Breitner-Lahm combo and that's also :drool:

I tend to agree with harms that his Beckenbauer support structure is almost perfectly designed to handle a Cruyff as false-9 but then the side goes beyond just being reliant on Cruyff. Good luck to both sides.
 

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Went with Schmeichel in the end.

I can appreciate the thematic pick of Grocics but at the end of the day, if it came down to those extra couple of saves, I know who I'd want in goal.

I am not the most knowledgeable on the subject but I don't think the 1970's Dutch GK had much of an impact on the team. Don't remember his name but I do remember reading or watching about him and he was apparently a less than average GK. Since it's not exactly a possession based system, I think starting Buffon wouldn't have taken much away from the theme/system considering all 4 of Zebec/Mcgrath/Blanc/Lahm can play out the back and have good passing ranges.

Harsh to vote here but I don't like calling games draws. If Buffon starts there, I'd give it to Jimoga as the opposition lacks an absolute GOAT in attack that could bring what Cruyff brings to the table. Insanely good pick that considering the supporting cast around.
 

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It seems like the game is more or less settled and I don’t want to argue much — while I believe that my team isn’t inferior and may even win this due to Schmeichel (although it’s more or less a coin-toss), funnily enough I like Jimbo’s team better. Got a bit bored of mine, even with all of the tactical changes it felt a bit repetitive — while that Rensenbrink - Cruyff - Elkjær front line and the use of Lerby & Breitner is just brilliant.
 

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It seems like the game is more or less settled and I don’t want to argue much — while I believe that my team isn’t inferior and may even win this due to Schmeichel (although it’s more or less a coin-toss), funnily enough I like Jimbo’s team better. Got a bit bored of mine, even with all of the tactical changes it felt a bit repetitive — while that Rensenbrink - Cruyff - Elkjær front line and the use of Lerby & Breitner is just brilliant.
Fair play harms! We talked how you might like our team as well with the likes of Rensenbrink, Elkjaer, Lerby, etc all there with Cruyff given the central stage.

And yeah, hard to find anything between the teams. It would be obviously a tight affair which could go either way. We were just a bit lucky to make the team more fresh and that it reached its peak in this final match. But great team as usual and lovely move with Gentile alongside Beckenbauer.
 

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It seems like the game is more or less settled and I don’t want to argue much — while I believe that my team isn’t inferior and may even win this due to Schmeichel (although it’s more or less a coin-toss), funnily enough I like Jimbo’s team better. Got a bit bored of mine, even with all of the tactical changes it felt a bit repetitive — while that Rensenbrink - Cruyff - Elkjær front line and the use of Lerby & Breitner is just brilliant.
Cheers harms. Mighty fine side that you created too. Do think Van Hanegem might perhaps have been better for this match than Sivori, as the forward trio had more than enough firepower and individuality. That midfield trio would have been amazing but I'm biased towards Van Hanegem so there's that.

Poor Pirlo though. We really wanted to play him but it just wasn't to be.

We had a different plan initially with Messi, which we'll post after the match


This was something that we were considering but yes Cruyff completely transformed the team and just about every player was tailor made for such a difficult to pull off system. Glad the likes of Lerby, Elkjaer and Rensenbrink got their fair dues too.

And of course massive credit to @Synco for his work on Zebec. We were in love with that FB duo and that was one of the main reasons why we were able to pull off so many different tactical variations.

Been a great draft @Edgar Allan Pillow . Remember me Jim & I talking about how the squad building was so much better, with the subs being of a similar quality and it made things all the more unpredictable with regards to tactics, and predicting the opponent's first XI & tactics. @Jim Beam even made 2 write ups prior to certain matches :lol: , since we were so torn between choices. Much better than your usual draft where you add 4 jack of all trades after your 11th pick and your reinforcements were a shoo-in for your side. But damn you for Blokhin.
 
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harms

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Cheers harms. Mighty fine side that you created too. Do think Van Hanegem might perhaps have been better for this match than Sivori as the forward trio had enough firepower and individuality. That midfield trio would have been amazing but I'm biased towards Van Hanegem so there's that.
I obviously thought about it, but I had mild reservations on Edwards and van Hanegem. It kinda worked in a very specific 4-2-2-2, but ideally I'd still put both on the left of a midfield three — van Hanegem would be more expansive, Edwards would be a more balanced option, but still I feel that there is a slight overlap. And I didn't want to put neither Edwards nor Tigana as a pure holding midfielder.

Sívori didn't overlap with any other players, so there was that.

It's funny that I was originally building my side around Beckham-Seeler link but only ended up using it once. The gift of Carlos Alberto really messed up with that plan.
 

Joga Bonito

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I obviously thought about it, but I had mild reservations on Edwards and van Hanegem. It kinda worked in a very specific 4-2-2-2, but ideally I'd still put both on the left of a midfield three — van Hanegem would be more expansive, Edwards would be a more balanced option, but still I feel that there is a slight overlap. And I didn't want to put neither Edwards nor Tigana as a pure holding midfielder.

Sívori didn't overlap with any other players, so there was that.
Fair points.