Racism in Italy - even anti-racism is filled with racism

[Scotty McT]

Mmm... correct me if I appear insensitive here, but I think the post above is just meant to be funny? Personally, I think it's still ok if we just joke about other races (purely for comedic purposes). I am from Malaysia, a multi-racial country and we do joke about each other's races, like stereotypes and all that. Things only get out of hand when people start to hate on other races.

Edit: Of course I do think derogatory acts like monkey chants or bananas are way out of line.

Was it okay to joke about Lukaku's penis?

That song being sung at Old Trafford did genuinely make me feel uncomfortable about going to games. The thought of thousands of people stood either side of me singing a song about what is obviously a racial stereotype is a somewhat nauseating one.

Anyone with the slightest interest in sociology should be able to recognise how that particular stereotype leads to actual resentment from certain people. I'm not going to go into anecdotes, but I've heard them.

The song wasn't just a stereotype, it was a straight up racist caricature in word form. People just thought it was okay because black people having big penises is meant to be a positive stereotype. It's called the Mandingo stereotype. If you haven't heard of it:

Mandingo

This stereotypical concept was invented by white slave owners who promoted the notion that male African slaves were animal in nature. They asserted, for example, that in "Negroes all the passions, emotions, and ambitions, are almost wholly subservient to the sexual instinct" and "this construction of the oversexed black male parlayed perfectly into notions of black bestiality and primitivism". The term mandingo is of 20th century origin. Bavardage around the black male physique would also adopt the notion of black men having oversized macrophallic penises.

I can appreciate that there was less malice than saying he should be fed bananas but still. The image of a Lukaku banner/flag being unfurled where he has a penis hanging down to below his knee should be able to get anyone to appreciate that it's a caricature of black men.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the racial climate in Malaysia, but:

While 179 countries have ratified the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), Malaysia is not one of them. The Pakatan Harapan government that replaced Barisan Nasional in 2018 had indicated a readiness to ratify ICERD, but has yet to do so due to the convention's conflict with the Malaysian constitution and the race and religious norms in Malaysia established since its independence.

Something to think about maybe?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

How about you don't conveniently quote only the first part of Cascarino's post and leave out the next bit?

@Fridge chutney @SS @Tarrou @Sayros @Fluctuation0161

Poe's Law really is the truest of all Internet adages. Only this time it was literally spelled out for you that it was a parody.

Maybe there's too much parodying going on. Is it really 'that' entertaining? Genuine question.

 

[Cassidy]

What the feck are you on about? I was responding to his response to me. If it was a parody, that was not made remotely clear by the rest of his post, although I hope it was a parody because the alternative is grim.

The post was in response to the post you made where you said you would wait for the next response from Bepi.

He then ended his excerpt with "That or he'd talk about ghettos again."

I think it was pretty clear to be honest, but you must have missed that last bit

 

[Cassidy]

I think there needs to be a distinction between identifying people with race, and being racist. Identification is not a problem - i.e., x is African, Malaysian, Latino etc etc. Discriminating on the basis of race is!

Identification with race also 'makes you a racist' in today's world, and we are obsessed with 'politically neutral' terms. Lukaku is black, and that's a fact. But, hiding behind 'Italian values' to make banana jokes/ or have monkey chants, and using 'size of penis' (sorry fellow United fans) in references to Lukaku is a racial stereotype, both of which are clear and obvious racism. (Regardless of whether the latter is positive).

The problem is that, we are currently on two ends of the divide. Every racist feels that he is only 'identifying on the basis of race', and every anti-racist feels that 'identification on the basis of race itself is racism'.

No we don't
I have no issue with anyone saying I am black or African.
I would have an issue if someone told me I could get distracted by a banana.

I am referenced as black or something along those lines nearly every day that is never an issue. It becomes an issue when I am referenced in that way with some other connotation about what that must mean based on some racial stereotype

 

[Fridge chutney]

The post was in response to the post you made where you said you would wait for the next response from Bepi.

He then ended his excerpt with "That or he'd talk about ghettos again."

I think it was pretty clear to be honest, but you must have missed that last bit

Now that last sentence makes sense. I thought he was still talking about Passirani (talking about ghettos, which just confused me). To be honest, this thread has been such a trainwreck in parts that I wasn't primed for parody, therefore my interpretation was it was serious (which I'm glad it isn't!).

 

[Fracture90]

No we don't
I have no issue with anyone saying I am black or African.
I would have an issue if someone told me I could get distracted by a banana.

I am referenced as black or something along those lines nearly every day that is never an issue. It becomes an issue when I am referenced in that way with some other connotation about what that must mean based on some racial stereotype

Don't want to be generalising but honestly I think that a person of any skin colour, be it black, white, yellow, red or any other would find it insulting if someone said about them what that journalist said about Lukaku.

 

[Cassidy]

Don't want to be generalising but honestly I think that a person of any skin colour, be it black, white, yellow, red or any other would find it insulting if someone said about them what that journalist said about Lukaku.

Don't disagree but only one has racial connotations.
For instance if someone said I would get distracted by money, I might get offended but I wouldn't think it was racist or a racial slur
Every race has racial stereotypes which are offensive

 

[JPRouve]

Don't want to be generalising but honestly I think that a person of any skin colour, be it black, white, yellow, red or any other would find it insulting if someone said about them what that journalist said about Lukaku.

He wouldn't have said it for any skin colour.

 

[Fracture90]

Don't disagree but only one has racial connotations.
For instance if someone said I would get distracted by money, I might get offended but I wouldn't think it was racist or a racial slur
Every race has racial stereotypes which are offensive

Yeah, most definitely. He could have replaced word bananas with so many different things that wouldn't be as half as offensive considering the racial connotation it carries with it.

 

[tenpoless]

To label Passirani racist, or what he said as racist, shows a complete misunderstanding of Italian values. When he made the comment about the bananas, he doesn't intrinsically think that a black person is more prone to eating bananas, it is for comedic purposes and to make people laugh. Racist? I think the ones who say Passirani's comments are racist are actually the racist ones themselves because they are the ones making the connection between black people and monkeys.

That or he'd talk about ghettos again.



I imagine they'd do feck all. Why would they?
That you had to add an amendment to your post letting people know you deplore racism, maybe means you should have thought more about what you were actually trying to say with your query.



I don't think the second video necessarily negates the first. Stormzy might still think that they do look similar, but simultaneously still find it unacceptable and racist that a national newspaper mixed them both up. It's certainly symptomatic though.

I don't really see it with Stormzy and Lukaku, but one of my friends is the spitting image of Justice Smith (though a fair bit older) and I don't think making that kind of comparison is necessarily inherently racist, but that such comparisons often are rooted in racism and ignorance.​

But everyone who doesn't live under a rock knows if bananas are tightly related to racism when used in such context. If you're a professional and your way of thinking is clear, you wouldn't even touch those kind of subjects.

Also if He doesn't think so, what's the correlation between bananas and stopping Lukaku then? He pretty much said "You can stop Lukaku if you tempt him with Bananas". You're trying to sound smart with those choice of words but honestly, your post is just silly.

 

[afrocentricity]

Astounding displays of privilege and ignorance in here. Like I've said before, caf isn't as progressive as some think. Give posters a chance and a few end up showing their true colours.... at least it's here in print for us all to see.

 

[Fracture90]

He wouldn't have said it for any skin colour.

Obviously. The fact that he still used bananas even though bananas are often used to be thrown at black players in Italy as a form of racial abuse, is what makes it even worse, as he was well aware of what he was doing.

 

[Cassidy]

Astounding displays of privilege and ignorance in here. Like I've said before, caf isn't as progressive as some think. Give posters a chance and a few end up showing their true colours.... at least it's here in print for us all to see.

It isn't surprising. It can only be a reflection of the society it exists within

 

[freeurmind]

Why don't you try writing the whole post in Italian. It's a translation issue, he's not saying the man's colour is a flaw.

He's justifying the racism by saying that fans just attack the weak point of the opponent. I can read and I don't think anything got lost in translation. So he's saying it's like the fans singing "who ate all the pies" because he's overweight is the same as abusing him because of his race. Therefore the only conclusion can then be that for those fans at the least ( and for the poster as well at the worst), Lukaku being black is one of his "weak points", therefore it is justified to attack him because of it. The apologists for the racists are just as bad as the actual racists imo.

 

[afrocentricity]

It isn't surprising. It can only be a reflection of the society it exists within

Yeah but sometimes you get sucked in (Like an idiot) when people are patting themselves on the back about how far we've progressed and how progressive -thing- has become. Then something happens (uncomfortably often nowadays) to remind you what a load of shite that is...

 

[Cassidy]

Yeah but sometimes you get sucked in (Like an idiot) when people are patting themselves on the back about how far we've progressed and how progressive -thing- has become. Then something happens (uncomfortably often nowadays) to remind you what a load of shite that is...

I hear you.

 

[Jeffthered]

Some interesting comments regarding this matter, which is a good thing. This topic is being conducted in an increasingly febrile environment, but we need to comment and encourage others to, because that' the only way we will progress things.

So well done to all contributors.

BTW.. my thoughts on what was said about Lukaku at the weekend, are that it was simply shocking, and highlights a horrid mentality that still pervades amongst some. The sense of dismissive entitlement, to simply objectify a human being as nothing more than an animal (..just throw him some food and he will be manageable..) is not only disgraceful, it also highlights a sense of malevolence, a sickening cultural heirachy that is still retained in the minds of some.

Can you imagine an evening out with Passirani and his friends?

 

[Jam]

It’s hard to tell what’s “parody” and what’s not recently with the influx of members who are Trump supporters and think Nazis weren’t fascist and were just an example of why socialism is bad.

The lines blurred; what you parody isn’t some far flung belief when a lot of people genuinely have those exact thoughts now.

 

[Dorian Gray]

It’s a disgrace but ultras do target the weakest point of every opponent all the time

My friend - the fact that you (or the ultras) believe that Lukaku being black is his weak point is in fact the text book definition of racism. Now I don't know whether it is malicious hatred or pure ignorance driving this, either way this mentality of supposed racial superiority needs to change.

 

[Cascarino]

Is this post a WUM? Tell me, what the feck is funny about it?

This is racism.

Train wreck of a post.

"Italian values"

You should really consider doing some soul searching, you are deeply on the wrong side of the issue there.

We have some real racists on the caf and they barely hide anymore

So people pointing out the inappropriateness of an extremely common racist trope used worldwide to insult black people are the racist ones. Am I getting whooshed? This can't be a serious post.

And I call bullshit on it supposedly being some harmless fun. The fact that he specifically used banana means he is the one connecting Lukaku or black people to monkeys. I am sure average Italian doesn't think all this is part of 'Italian Values' as you portray. At the very least it shows astounding ignorance and tone deafness, if not out and out racism.





Edit: Looks like I did get whooshed. Online sarcasm is getting tougher to identify :/ Apologies @Cascarino

It's racist mate. Please reevaluate your racism compass!

But everyone who doesn't live under a rock knows if bananas are tightly related to racism when used in such context. If you're a professional and your way of thinking is clear, you wouldn't even touch those kind of subjects.

Also if He doesn't think so, what's the correlation between bananas and stopping Lukaku then? He pretty much said "You can stop Lukaku if you tempt him with Bananas". You're trying to sound smart with those choice of words but honestly, your post is just silly.

I think it shows that Italian values/culture is still quite behind with regards to cultural sensitivities. It may be humorous to Italians but notice the outrage it has caused worldwide. We live in a multi-cultural and global world. These type of comments should not be made on TV where millions across the world who may not be familiar with Italian values (as you put it) are watching. He can make these comments within the confines of his house with his friends etc.

What the feck are you on about? I was responding to his response to me. If it was a parody, that was not made remotely clear by the rest of his post, although I hope it was a parody because the alternative is grim.

Well I imagine that it is funny, to a person or society that is inherently racist. Unfortunately there are too many posts of this "ilk" on this thread for it to be a WUM. It seems we have some very misinformed people on this thread.

Can't believe some of the posts I am seeing.

​

God I hate people sometimes

I was trying to parody the defense of racism the likes of the Inter ultras and Bepi had supplied regarding the Lukaku incident. The post I quoted said 'I wonder how Bepi would defend this?'. I thought the context and content of the post would make it clear that it was meant to be a parody, obviously I didn't make that clear enough (or funny enough), sorry about the misunderstanding.

The first bit about Passirani's comments not being racist because he was trying to be funny, was because of the ultas defense that the racist abuse aimed at Lukaku wasn't racist in nature because the intent of it was to make him play worse, thus somehow negating the racist aspect of it. The second part is because when racism is highlighted, those who refuse to acknowledge it will often try and accuse those of highlighting the racism, as being racist themselves, which I think the poster I was parodying has done a couple times in this thread.

Explaining makes what was an unfunny post even less funny, I just didn’t pull it off well.

He's parodying another poster though. Sometimes it helps to read the whole post.

How about you don't conveniently quote only the first part of Cascarino's post and leave out the next bit?

@Fridge chutney @SS @Tarrou @Sayros @Fluctuation0161



Poe's Law really is the truest of all Internet adages. Only this time it was literally spelled out for you that it was a parody.

The post was in response to the post you made where you said you would wait for the next response from Bepi.

He then ended his excerpt with "That or he'd talk about ghettos again."

I think it was pretty clear to be honest, but you must have missed that last bit

Cascarino wasn't being serious. He's imitating another poster who tends to downplay racism in Italy. He should have used quotation marks or something though.

I thought it was real too until i read "that or he'd talk about ghetto's again".

Thanks guys, when I saw the first 5 or so responses after waking up I panicked, so thanks for explaining what I'd meant to do​

 

[afrocentricity]

My post wasn't for you @Cascarino it was a general post to whom it may apply to...

 

[Cascarino]

My post wasn't for you @Cascarino it was a general post to whom it may apply to...

I wasn’t sure when it came to you and @Adisa as neither of you quoted me, but I quoted you both along with those who replied to me just in case you were, as your both posters I respect and wouldn’t want thinking those were views I held.

 

[kouroux]

@Cascarino Why did you quote me ?

 

[Tarrou]

@Cascarino no worries, I should have picked up on it

 

[SteveJ]

I'm guessing that none of you understand Cascarino's values.

 

[Silas]

My bad @Cascarino. I didn't pay much mind to "that or he'd talk about ghettos", as I haven't really kept up with the caf discussion and had no idea about that other poster.

 

[afrocentricity]

I wasn’t sure when it came to you and @Adisa as neither of you quoted me, but I quoted you both along with those who replied to me just in case you were, as your both posters I respect and wouldn’t want thinking those were views I held.

Okay, I'll take you off the list then.
There's not really a list... Or is there?
Might be worth adding an edit to that post though.

 

[devilish]

To label Passirani racist, or what he said as racist, shows a complete misunderstanding of Italian values. When he made the comment about the bananas, he doesn't intrinsically think that a black person is more prone to eating bananas, it is for comedic purposes and to make people laugh. Racist? I think the ones who say Passirani's comments are racist are actually the racist ones themselves because they are the ones making the connection between black people and monkeys.
​

I've seen the interview and while I believe that Passirani's comment as racist I do understand your point of view. First of all, anyone who understand Italian knows that apart from that comment, Passirani was full of praise towards Lukaku. He labelled him as the best transfer Inter could make, that his skillset is unique in Italy, that he's one of the strongest strikers there are and that's he's unbeatable in 1 vs 1. I think that the biggest issue here is not racism but the typical arrogance these people usually have. This guy has been in football for half a century. In a country were football people are revered and were certain people in the media has been there since forever (Gerry Scotti for example) he probably made that comment simply because he felt so untouchable that there was no need for him to bother finding a less offensive comment to make. For British people its no different to what Prince Philip or Boris Johnson do. They know they are being offensive but they still do it because they think that they will get away with it.

I consider that as worse then racism. Its one thing saying something racist because of ignorance or sudden rage and its another saying a racist thing because one feels so untouchable that he can't be arsed finding a more appropriate comment to make

 

[Grinner]

He's justifying the racism by saying that fans just attack the weak point of the opponent. I can read and I don't think anything got lost in translation. So he's saying it's like the fans singing "who ate all the pies" because he's overweight is the same as abusing him because of his race. Therefore the only conclusion can then be that for those fans at the least ( and for the poster as well at the worst), Lukaku being black is one of his "weak points", therefore it is justified to attack him because of it. The apologists for the racists are just as bad as the actual racists imo.

I read it as the weak point being the thing that will get to him the most, not necessarily some actual physical flaw. All I'm saying is that an Italian poster may use a word or phrase that we can all jump on but purely because it's how an Italian word translates.

 

[Cassidy]

I read it as the weak point being the thing that will get to him the most, not necessarily some actual physical flaw. All I'm saying is that an Italian poster may use a word or phrase that we can all jump on but purely because it's how an Italian word translates.

Except if it something you can use to get at someone, you are actually treating it as a flaw, doesn't need to be physical

 

[simplyared]

Fecking sickening it's allowed to go on in some of these countries. Even worse when the people with any influence or power deny it's a problem. Fear it could be enough to break Rom. Diabolical it's allowed to continue!

 

[Bepi]

I read it as the weak point being the thing that will get to him the most, not necessarily some actual physical flaw. All I'm saying is that an Italian poster may use a word or phrase that we can all jump on but purely because it's how an Italian word translates.

That’s it really, I am not a native in English so please have a bit of patience and do not focus on single words, I am just trying to articulate a bit more than you need to avoid misunderstanding. As for “weakest point”, I meant this: ultras use to target the point they think will distract their oppo the most... so just go with monkey verses before Lukaku takes the penalty in the hope he misses out of rage or frustration. That said, I understand topics go on pretty casually, in that people just refer to the latest posts without following or remembering the whole discussion, so we are going in circles. That’s why I am stopping here with this topic. Thanks again for the patience. Ciao.

 

[Judas]

Astounding displays of privilege and ignorance in here. Like I've said before, caf isn't as progressive as some think. Give posters a chance and a few end up showing their true colours.... at least it's here in print for us all to see.

Always happens unfortunately. Every time real world issues are discussed you see just how backwards and out of touch they are with reality. Be it racism or homophobia to name just two topics, there's a lot of people on here who I'd have zero interest spending a second of my time with away from the internet, yeah plenty on here know about football, but when it comes to the world in 2019, they're stuck in the dark ages.

 

[Cascarino]

@Cascarino Why did you quote me ?

Sorry man I thought I’d had a notification from you!

@Cascarino no worries, I should have picked up on it

Not at all, I could and should have made it clearer in my original post.

My bad @Cascarino. I didn't pay much mind to "that or he'd talk about ghettos", as I haven't really kept up with the caf discussion and had no idea about that other poster.

Not your bad, you were working under the assumption that I was genuinely defending racism, and basically advocating for it. I’d have called someone out too for that. I’d just read the thread, and I was high so it didn’t occur to me at the time how my post might look.

Okay, I'll take you off the list then.
There's not really a list... Or is there?
Might be worth adding an edit to that post though.

Yes that’s a good idea, something I should have done from the start.

This will be my last post on the subject of my faux pas so I don’t clog up the thread for everyone.

 

[giorno]

Except if it something you can use to get at someone, you are actually treating it as a flaw, doesn't need to be physical

A weakness and a flaw are different things

A weakness doesn't need to perceived as a flaw by the offender, it's about the victim's ability to cope

Of course racial targeting requires you to be comfortable with being a racist. Which makes you a racist or a sociopath and a racist


And back OT: FA made its decision on this case, which is nothing. And what happened in Verona isn't even under investigation

At this point i'd rather Gravina just come right out and say we don't give a shite about racism and be done with it

 

[Cassidy]

A weakness and a flaw are different things

A weakness doesn't need to perceived as a flaw by the offender, it's about the victim's ability to cope

Of course racial targeting requires you to be comfortable with being a racist. Which makes you a racist or a sociopath and a racist


And back OT: FA made its decision on this case, which is nothing. And what happened in Verona isn't even under investigation

At this point i'd rather Gravina just come right out and say we don't give a shite about racism and be done with it

So a perceived mental flaw

 

[sammsky1]

Lukaku is black, and that's a fact.

It’s actually a complete falsity. Lukaku is no more ‘black’ than Rooney is ‘white’.

If you used a colour palette as reference, Lukaku skin colour would be a very dark brown, and Rooney would be a light pink. In fact I can’t think of any racial group to have ‘pure black’ skin.

Black and white as colours used to describe skin colours is an ancient western construct, implying good vs evil and pure vs impure.

You probably only read and speak English, which has been evolved by pink people through racist colonial times. And the English language is now loaded with adjectives to imply white (pink) superiority.

If you also spoke Zulu, Swahili, Arabic or Mandarin, you’d see just how pronounced that phenomenon is within English language.

Read up on it. It’s a vastly researched and known concept.

https://trc.org.nz/sites/trc.org.nz/files/Racism in the English Language.pdf

Edit: removed Hindi from list above after correction.

 

[giorno]

So a perceived mental flaw

The inability to cope with racial abuse. I would not call it a flaw

To be more precise, the weak point is the racial abuse, not the skin color

 

[Cassidy]

The inability to cope with racial abuse. I would not call it a flaw

To be more precise, the weak point is the racial abuse, not the skin color

This is perceived is what I am pointing out. Many, actually most in football cope with it very well. Weakness vs flaw it is really semantics I think we are saying the same thing. I am simply pointing out that jumping to the conclusion that, that is the players weak spot / flaw (or what ever word you want to use) because the player is black says enough

 

[Zelex]

@Cascarino, whilst my reply wasn't attacking you. Apologies for my misunderstanding over the point you were trying to make. As someone mentioned also, I don't really keep update with these discussions. I just saw your post and commented.