Racism at Old Trafford

Prometheus

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
2,708
Supports
Chelsea
Come on then. I’m sure your waiting for someone to say “because they do eat dogs in Korea”. Enlighten us.
I'm not baiting anyone. So you can give a genuine answer as to why you think it's not racist.
 

Eckers99

Michael Corleone says hello
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
6,117
You should feel ashamed of yourself then. In fact you should feel twice as ashamed for also suggesting that all scousers live in council houses. Disgusting.
Too ambitious?
 

klayton88

Full Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2015
Messages
4,267
My very first United game was home to Liverpool back in 02 and there was a guy sat right in front of me (top tier north) chanting Sol Campbell is a monkey. He did this about 5 or 6 times before stewards grabbed him. He had what I assume was his daughter with him and she must have been around 7 or 8 and I felt really bad for her. Not for getting turfed out but because she had this arsehole for a dad. Also why he was chanting against Sol Campbell when he was nowhere near old trafford is beyond me.
 

RMD83

Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
827
I'm not baiting anyone. So you can give a genuine answer as to why you think it's not racist.
Yes you are baiting. It doesn’t take a mind reader to work out that you are waiting for someone to say “because they eat dogs in Korea” to which you will of course re educate them.

For the record no I don’t think the chant is racist. I’d love to know how many Koreans would be offended. I don’t happen to be one or know any but I’m going to take an educated guess and say not many. Much like when there was talks of renaming the Washington Redskins because it was insensitive to native Indians only to find out that when they actually did a poll among native Indians the over whelming majority didn’t give a toss.
 

CallyRed

Full Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
10,927
The Shinji Kagawa chant is far worse than the Park one.
He hardly played as Carricks midfield partner.
 

Prometheus

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
2,708
Supports
Chelsea
How the hell have you never heard that? It's one of the best known chants in England, let alone OT.
I never had the words spelled out like that. I knew there was a Park chant along those lines, but I either never knew the actual lyrics or forgot them.
 

Prometheus

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
2,708
Supports
Chelsea
Yes you are baiting. It doesn’t take a mind reader to work out that you are waiting for someone to say “because they eat dogs in Korea” to which you will of course re educate them.

For the record no I don’t think the chant is racist. I’d love to know how many Koreans would be offended. I don’t happen to be one or know any but I’m going to take an educated guess and say not many. Much like when there was talks of renaming the Washington Redskins because it was insensitive to native Indians only to find out that when they actually did a poll among native Indians the over whelming majority didn’t give a toss.
Perhaps the fact that you've to pre-emptively complain about how you think the conversion will go should itself tell you about the tenability of your position?
 

0le

Full Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2017
Messages
5,806
Location
UK
Could you perhaps enlighten me as to how it's not then?
I too grappled with the idea of whether it was racist or not. The reason being that the chant is based on looking at his race and making a stereotype about him.

In the UK racism is defined as:

Something is a racist or religious hate incident if the victim or anyone else thinks it was carried out because of hostility or prejudice based on race or religion.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...n/hate-crime/racist-and-religious-hate-crime/

I highlighted "prejudice based on race". I looked up the definition of prejudice:

preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.
We have no reason to believe Park eats dogs except based on his nationality. The chant appears to be based on looking at his race, assuming he eats dogs because its part of the culture, and then implied that part of the culture was horrible.

I don't think any individual component is necessarily racist. But when you combine them together, I can see how some people like yourself may view that as racist. It has very similar echoes to the Lukaku chant. I think I've said before that I do not find the chant racist, but I honestly don't know anymore.
 

RMD83

Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
827
Perhaps the fact that you've to pre-emptively complain about how you think the conversion will go should itself tell you about the tenability of your position?
Well when someone asks someone to “enlighten” them on why the chant isn’t racist it’s hardly difficult to pre-empt how the conversation is going to go. Its safe to say you aren’t going to agree with them. Obviously I have fell into your trap here where you can just endlessly go around in circles now questioning my character for being so bold as to make judgement on what your stance is on the subject. Maybe that says more about your tenability than it does mine.
 

Prometheus

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
2,708
Supports
Chelsea
I too grappled with the idea of whether it was racist or not. The reason being that the chant is based on looking at his race and making a stereotype about him.

In the UK racism is defined as:



https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...n/hate-crime/racist-and-religious-hate-crime/

I highlighted "prejudice based on race". I looked up the definition of prejudice:



We have no reason to believe Park eats dogs except based on his nationality. The chant appears to be based on looking at his race, assuming he eats dogs because its part of the culture, and then implied that part of the culture was horrible.

I don't think any individual component is necessarily racist. But when you combine them together, I can see how some people like yourself may view that as racist. It has very similar echoes to the Lukaku chant. I think I've said before that I do not find the chant racist, but I honestly don't know anymore.
The way I see it, the problem is the way it's used as an insult to put down someone else for being in an even worse situation. The people chanting are from a society and a culture where eating dogs is a massive, unthinkable taboo. They are not pointing it out as a mere fact. They are employing it as a weapon to take the piss against their rivals.
 
Last edited:

Prometheus

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
2,708
Supports
Chelsea
Well when someone asks someone to “enlighten” them on why the chant isn’t racist it’s hardly difficult to pre-empt how the conversation is going to go. Its safe to say you aren’t going to agree with them. Obviously I have fell into your trap here where you can just endlessly go around in circles now questioning my character for being so bold as to make judgement on what your stance is on the subject. Maybe that says more about your tenability than it does mine.
Yeah, I actually see now my earlier posts had clear confrontational tone, so it makes sense people would get defensive.
 

matherto

ask me about our 50% off sale!
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
17,511
Location
St. Helens
While i agree that some chants step over the line, and shouldn't be sung, you can't really compare what happens at the ground with what happens in work. They're completely different scenarios governed by totally different social contracts. You can't get drunk, shout, swear, jump around wildly, sing songs or fart loudly in work but football matches are one of the few places where you can do them all with impunity. It's part of the atmosphere and a traditional part of the ritual.
Slavery and lynchings used to be a traditional part of rituals.

Traditions and rituals are meant to be broken.
 

momo83

Massive Snowflake
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
1,463
I see what you mean about the Park song but again, references to the basic knowledge that Koreans eat dog is not racist. You can express surprise or dislike about a culinary habit but to call it 'racist' expresses misunderstanding of what that actually means. If you added other things then yes it would become racist.
I've lived in Korea and the response I have always had from people who know little about the culture and daily life there, is did I try dog meat and why they wouldn't want to.
As an Aussie who has lived in two different East Asian countries - still living in one - similar questions were asked of me in Korea about kangaroo meat and now in my second country about the same.
These questions came from people whose country tells them to be proud of their mono-cultural society and that they are 'pure blooded' Koreans and Japanese. Their education system from kindergarten through to high school is based on that notion despite some lip service now to 'diversity' and the western media taking official statements and many other things at face value.
There are also differences of opinions by some in those countries of course but they are not driving those societies.
Many things I have heard in both countries were certainly based on ethnocentrism, drawing clear boundaries between the people native to the country and outsiders, and yes, racism in the sense that it comes from the notion that others are inferior in one or some ways because they were not born with your ethnicity - the word 'race' is actually too broad.
However, questions about kangaroo meat, and some other stereotypes about Aussies and 'outside people' were common and not based on bigotry/racism. Many Koreans and Japanese people have told me they think it's strange or not good to eat kangaroos - and their opinion is fine. I don't eat kangaroo.
BTW - I always have and always will refuse to eat dog meat. I always told my Korean co-workers and friends please do exactly as you like there but I don't want to try it.
The horror of the hanging and other prolonged torturing of dogs in their meat markets, the unbelievable cruelty of big dogs in cages out in the boiling Korean sun where they have zero room to move including in some scumbags' gardens and other personal property, and the criminal activity of driving around and snatching pets of the street to take to those places of horror mean I refuse to eat dog meat.
The lack of animal protection laws and basic standards of animal treatment there makes many of us respond in a way that recoils from dog meat eating. It is strange to those who don't eat it hence the Park chant at the level of culinary differences.
honestly I don’t think the thought process behind that chant was really that deep to be honest. It’s based on banter.
 

Rhyme Animal

Thinks Di Zerbi is better than Pep.
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Messages
11,193
Location
Nonchalantly scoring the winner...
It depends what's interpreted as racism? Being from Indian decent I've had ain't you got a corner shop to open, or the old joke thrown at me about why Indians can't take corners because they'll build a shop on it. But I've always taken that as banter while I do know people who call that racism. Very easy to show the recism card while it might not be racism in whole.
I'd class that as racist abuse personally - I think most would tbh mate.
 

ryansgirl

Full Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2001
Messages
2,914
Location
where the sun rises
I too grappled with the idea of whether it was racist or not. The reason being that the chant is based on looking at his race and making a stereotype about him.

In the UK racism is defined as:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...n/hate-crime/racist-and-religious-hate-crime/

I highlighted "prejudice based on race". I looked up the definition of prejudice:

We have no reason to believe Park eats dogs except based on his nationality. The chant appears to be based on looking at his race, assuming he eats dogs because its part of the culture, and then implied that part of the culture was horrible.

I don't think any individual component is necessarily racist. But when you combine them together, I can see how some people like yourself may view that as racist. It has very similar echoes to the Lukaku chant. I think I've said before that I do not find the chant racist, but I honestly don't know anymore.
I think nearly all of us agree with the principles behind definitions of 'prejudice based on race' but playing loose with it ends up over-simplifying and asserting that any observation of difference is rooted in racism. The word 'race' in itself is an everyday word that is useful to a point in definitions but was always used too broadly in the past and is now being used too broadly in a different context in the present.

'Korean' is not a race - it's an ethnicity just like those of the rest of the world's people. All of the world's countries and societies consist of different ethnic groups, some of which have been more diversified over centuries than others.
 

NotThatSoph

Full Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2019
Messages
3,757
Absolutely. However, since there are a few here who keep insisting that such a chant in Park's case is 'racist' and I have lived in Korea, then sometimes it is best to write posts that give some real information as opposed to the flat assertion something is 'racist'.
Especially as eating dogs is abhorrent to a number of cultures where they are almost like family members. Hence the context of the chant in saying then it could be worse.
The "it could be worse" is the thing making it racist, though. The chant isn't just "factually" pointing out that Koreans eat dogs. It's not about how Park eats dogs because he's Korean. It's about how he as a Korean eats dogs, but it could be worse, he could be Scouse and eat rats instead. The whole chant is based on the fact that eating dogs is seen as disgusting (and that Park eats dogs because he's Korean), because without that the Scouse insult would make no sense.

Just imagine: "Taibbi, Taibbi, you eat pizza in your home country. It could be worse, you could be Scouse. Eating rats in your council house."

It wouldn't work, because pizza is seen as proper food. Koreans eating dogs does work, because it's seen as disgusting and therefore serves as a way of insulting people from Liverpool by calling them even more disgusting than Koreans. That's the whole premise of the joke. Koreans bad, Scousers worse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rood

ryansgirl

Full Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2001
Messages
2,914
Location
where the sun rises
honestly I don’t think the thought process behind that chant was really that deep to be honest. It’s based on banter.
I agree and it's also about the fact that dogs are pets or just about family members in the UK where Park played. It's a culinary observation and to apply the blanket term 'racist' is incorrect.

If the chant had been about Park's appearance because he is Asian or insulting him on the basis of his Korean nationality/ethnicity - no, we simply shouldn't use the word 'race' so broadly - then I'd be the first to agree that it would be demonstrating what we know as 'racism'.

However, I do think it's best not to have banter or chants about cultural differences. Also context is important. I don't know if this really happened but there was a report that US basketballer Dwayne Wade who won rings and an MVP award walked out of an event in China where he was an honoured guest because he was served watermelon.

If this is true that was a classic case of misunderstanding of context from Wade's people. East Asian eat a lot of watermelon, they love it, it's a fantastic way to keep cool in the humid summers. They were giving him fruit they love. Somebody on his team meaning interpreter, PR etc should have known about the cultural context before they went. The Chinese there would have been flabbergasted by such a star walking out like that.
 
Last edited:

ryansgirl

Full Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2001
Messages
2,914
Location
where the sun rises
Yes you are baiting. It doesn’t take a mind reader to work out that you are waiting for someone to say “because they eat dogs in Korea” to which you will of course re educate them.

For the record no I don’t think the chant is racist. I’d love to know how many Koreans would be offended. I don’t happen to be one or know any but I’m going to take an educated guess and say not many. Much like when there was talks of renaming the Washington Redskins because it was insensitive to native Indians only to find out that when they actually did a poll among native Indians the over whelming majority didn’t give a toss.
My Korean friends don't mind the Park chant but there are Koreans who definitely would be offended. There is also a strong culture in Korea of being offended by perceived slights to the Korean national identity and culture that in many other developed countries would be seen as part of critical thinking and debate. It is similar to the People's Republic of China in that respect.

Daryl Morey of Houston Rockets tweeted something about Hong Kong - then it was blown up by China to the point where all the NBA was attacked, their events cancelled etc. China doesn't have to accept Morey's view but ban him then if you really want to - involving everybody else didn't surprise me especially as I had lived for some years in a country where there is a similar thinking.

This is a huge political issue and a complex one - some cultures tend to see others as having the same monolithic focus so if somebody from another country says something that is perceived in Korea as wrong then that person's country and country persons are widely condemned. I won't begin to give examples as I was fairly regularly on the receiving end of this as a non Korean with no Asian looks from strangers who would come up to me and blame me for the 'Mad Cow' beef from the USA, or other issues, for example. For the record I love visiting Korea, enjoy the energy there, knew enough Korean when I was there to clap back at people who did this and remember my time there fondly for the most.
 

Alabaster Codify7

New Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
6,553
Location
Wales
I dont find the Park chant racist, a bit stereotype-y but clearly meant as harmless banter with no racist connotations.

For the record I'm not Asian and I've eaten dog. It was shite. I'm Welsh and it's the equivalent of someone calling me a sheep shagger ...... nothing racist about it. Provocative and stereotypical yeah, but would the police get involved if I reported it? Feck no. Same goes for Park. Feck no

Monkey noises to a black player? Police would definitely get involved and rightly so.
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
95,709
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
I dont find the Park chant racist, a bit stereotype-y but clearly meant as harmless banter with no racist connotations.

For the record I'm not Asian and I've eaten dog. It was shite. I'm Welsh and it's the equivalent of someone calling me a sheep shagger ...... nothing racist about it. Provocative and stereotypical yeah, but would the police get involved if I reported it? Feck no. Same goes for Park. Feck no

Monkey noises to a black player? Police would definitely get involved and rightly so.
That's what the Inter fans also said regarding Lukaku and Cagliari
 

fergieisold

New Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
7,122
Location
Saddleworth (home) Manchester (work)
You should feel ashamed of yourself then. In fact you should feel twice as ashamed for also suggesting that all scousers live in council houses. Disgusting.
It is just a bit of fun. If there are people like you going around shouting racism at everything then people will have to come to the conclusion that not all racism is bad.
 

Member 113277

Guest
As a black man I have never wanted to sing about or photoshop a white mans penis.

Can I ask the caucasian population WTF is this phenomenon!?
I don't think it originates here, though the 'thinking' that drives it has unfortunately made its way into parts of our culture. You might have a look a lynchings in the USA and the theories behind the perpetrator's motivation to take another life - but be warned, it isn't pleasant reading.

As an older white man, I've seen tolerance for racism and other prejudices greatly decrease in the UK and I hope one day that it might be eradicated (or 99.9%).
 

Eckers99

Michael Corleone says hello
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
6,117
Slavery and lynchings used to be a traditional part of rituals.

Traditions and rituals are meant to be broken.
There's a pretty wide gap between singing at football matches and lynchings, no? Crazy comparison.
 

Member 113277

Guest
There's a pretty wide gap between singing at football matches and lynchings, no? Crazy comparison.
To the degree that one believes the validity of the research, there is a connection between concerns deep in the unconscious and behaviours. So one is not comparing lynchings and singing, but the drivers of both, which the researchers say has a common link, though the impact of severity of the behaviour is an order of magnitude apart.
 

Okey

Full Member
Joined
May 11, 2017
Messages
2,426
So I'm a black man with a pretty high tolerance level. I often think the racism card is overplayed, probably cos I set my bar quite high and don't mind a bit of banter. So at the Liverpool game, a couple of ladies in front of me kept calling me Pogba and wanting to take pictures with me. It got quite persistent and irritating. I wasn't sure how to react.
1) It was ruining my enjoyment of the game. 2) I bear absolutely no resemblance to Pogba, beyond being a fellow black man.
Just thought I'd ask, what do people think of this? I waved it off but it did leave a sour taste...
 

Eckers99

Michael Corleone says hello
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
6,117
To the degree that one believes the validity of the research, there is a connection between concerns deep in the unconscious and behaviours. So one is not comparing lynchings and singing, but the drivers of both, which the researchers say has a common link, though the impact of severity of the behaviour is an order of magnitude apart.
I appreciate the complexity of your point but the post I was replying to wasn't examining the similarities in psychology of a passionate football fan vs a vocal racist (which is interesting). He/ she was using racist chants as justification to end the traditions that make football interesting. Yes, some of us have a greater capacity to hate and, yes, that hatred can manifest itself in some ugly ways but, for me, chanting/ anger are just part of what makes going to football an exciting experience. And most fans are capable of being passionate while recognising the limits.
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
21,203
So I'm a black man with a pretty high tolerance level. I often think the racism card is overplayed, probably cos I set my bar quite high and don't mind a bit of banter. So at the Liverpool game, a couple of ladies in front of me kept calling me Pogba and wanting to take pictures with me. It got quite persistent and irritating. I wasn't sure how to react.
1) It was ruining my enjoyment of the game. 2) I bear absolutely no resemblance to Pogba, beyond being a fellow black man.
Just thought I'd ask, what do people think of this? I waved it off but it did leave a sour taste...
Without knowing what you look like, it depends. It's certainly true that people cannot tell people of other races apart as well as they can people within their own race.
 

Eckers99

Michael Corleone says hello
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
6,117
So I'm a black man with a pretty high tolerance level. I often think the racism card is overplayed, probably cos I set my bar quite high and don't mind a bit of banter. So at the Liverpool game, a couple of ladies in front of me kept calling me Pogba and wanting to take pictures with me. It got quite persistent and irritating. I wasn't sure how to react.
1) It was ruining my enjoyment of the game. 2) I bear absolutely no resemblance to Pogba, beyond being a fellow black man.
Just thought I'd ask, what do people think of this? I waved it off but it did leave a sour taste...
Were they old? Sounds like the kind of thing that people completely detached from modern thinking would say and do.
 

Okey

Full Member
Joined
May 11, 2017
Messages
2,426
Were they old? Sounds like the kind of thing that people completely detached from modern thinking would say and do.
Nope. Very young and modern looking, hence my surprise. I could sense the guys around were a bit uncomfortable as well, just shrugging their shoulders. I was the only black guy in the area but then it's been my seat for 10 years. The ladies were new, never seen them before.
 

Okey

Full Member
Joined
May 11, 2017
Messages
2,426
Without knowing what you look like, it depends. It's certainly true that people cannot tell people of other races apart as well as they can people within their own race.
While I'm familiar with that sentiment, I'm short, with a full beard, and a lot fairer than Pogba. I couldn't look any more different than him if I tried.
 

matherto

ask me about our 50% off sale!
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
17,511
Location
St. Helens
There's a pretty wide gap between singing at football matches and lynchings, no? Crazy comparison.
To accept something as a tradition and not address it if it isn't right is to get complacent and solidify views that can be incredibly unhealthy to discourse.

People live by their bad habits and claim they can't change. It's more that they won't because they definitely can.

If there are things in football that are bad (and there are plenty) then should we chalk them up to tradition and pretend we can't do anything about it or should be confront it and attempt to change it?

Like I said, traditions and rituals are meant to be broken and they damn well should be as we progress in knowledge.

Of course there's a pretty wide gap but the motivators are the same.
 

matherto

ask me about our 50% off sale!
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
17,511
Location
St. Helens
While I'm familiar with that sentiment, I'm short, with a full beard, and a lot fairer than Pogba. I couldn't look any more different than him if I tried.
I'd have called them out on it tbh.
 

Inigo Montoya

Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
38,543
So I'm a black man with a pretty high tolerance level. I often think the racism card is overplayed, probably cos I set my bar quite high and don't mind a bit of banter. So at the Liverpool game, a couple of ladies in front of me kept calling me Pogba and wanting to take pictures with me. It got quite persistent and irritating. I wasn't sure how to react.
1) It was ruining my enjoyment of the game. 2) I bear absolutely no resemblance to Pogba, beyond being a fellow black man.
Just thought I'd ask, what do people think of this? I waved it off but it did leave a sour taste...
I'm a British Asian and have been a ST holder for a number of years. I've had no issues inside the ground with fellow supporters but obviously a few isolated racist name calling at away grounds. I can see why it left a sour taste. Putting myself in your position, I wonder how I'd feel if I was constantly referred to as Kohli,Kohli. In short, pissed off as it does go to the stereotype that all people of colour look the same.

You should have called them Gemma Collins, Gemma Collins, See if they found it flattering
 

Judas

Open to offers
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
35,964
Location
Where the grass is greener.
So I'm a black man with a pretty high tolerance level. I often think the racism card is overplayed, probably cos I set my bar quite high and don't mind a bit of banter. So at the Liverpool game, a couple of ladies in front of me kept calling me Pogba and wanting to take pictures with me. It got quite persistent and irritating. I wasn't sure how to react.
1) It was ruining my enjoyment of the game. 2) I bear absolutely no resemblance to Pogba, beyond being a fellow black man.
Just thought I'd ask, what do people think of this? I waved it off but it did leave a sour taste...
Sounds like a mixture of genuine stupidity and total ignorance, probably not meant to be malicious. But I can understand how it would leave a sour taste. As a white person I've had things like that happen to me in parts of Asia where I would stick out like a sore thumb.
 

Eckers99

Michael Corleone says hello
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
6,117
Nope. Very young and modern looking, hence my surprise. I could sense the guys around were a bit uncomfortable as well, just shrugging their shoulders. I was the only black guy in the area but then it's been my seat for 10 years. The ladies were new, never seen them before.
It doesn't sound malicious, more ignorant/ stupid then. Hopefully you don't see them at the game again.
 

Eckers99

Michael Corleone says hello
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
6,117
To accept something as a tradition and not address it if it isn't right is to get complacent and solidify views that can be incredibly unhealthy to discourse.

People live by their bad habits and claim they can't change. It's more that they won't because they definitely can.

If there are things in football that are bad (and there are plenty) then should we chalk them up to tradition and pretend we can't do anything about it or should be confront it and attempt to change it?

Like I said, traditions and rituals are meant to be broken and they damn well should be as we progress in knowledge.

Of course there's a pretty wide gap but the motivators are the same.
I wouldn't do anything to address drunkenness, singing, piss-taking songs at football as they're (within reason) a big part of the atmosphere - which is a big reason to go to a game, and not just watch it at home. The match going experience can't withstand being any more diluted than it already is so, given the choice of a thousand more iPad sporting nonentities or a thousand young lads having a few beers and enjoying themselves, I'd happily take the latter.

Blanket statements and platitudes about addressing traditions doesn't help, it just shunts everything you don't like under one convenient label when, in reality, not all traditions are a bad thing and they certainly don't deserve to be associated with something as insidious as racism.