Racism in Football

alastair

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Forgive me mods if this could go in the John Terry thread, but I think it's worthy of its own.

There are an awful lot of people at the moment harping on about how this one incident, mixed in with the Suarez affair, demonstrates that there is a real problem with racism in football at the moment.

As far as I'm concerned, there really isn't one. I've gone to over 300 games(probably wildly inaccurate estimate) across every current Premier League ground, and in Europe. I've been to France, Italy, Turkey, Greece, Spain, Serbia and Ukraine to watch football, and I've never seen a sustained racist chant from any set of supporters I've come across.

The worst thing I've heard is the Adebayor song which still gets aired(although not by Arsenal fans, funnily enough). Apart from that, I'm really struggling to think of a racist incident I've seen, and even that is relatively tame.

So I'd like to know if I'm right on this. Is racism still an issue? How far have we actually gone down the path of fixing it entirely? Is there a need for further legislation?
 

JakeC

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Forgive me mods if this could go in the John Terry thread, but I think it's worthy of its own.

There are an awful lot of people at the moment harping on about how this one incident, mixed in with the Suarez affair, demonstrates that there is a real problem with racism in football at the moment.

As far as I'm concerned, there really isn't one. I've gone to over 300 games(probably wildly inaccurate estimate) across every current Premier League ground, and in Europe. I've been to France, Italy, Turkey, Greece, Spain, Serbia and Ukraine to watch football, and I've never seen a sustained racist chant from any set of supporters I've come across.

The worst thing I've heard is the Adebayor song which still gets aired(although not by Arsenal fans, funnily enough). Apart from that, I'm really struggling to think of a racist incident I've seen, and even that is relatively tame.

So I'd like to know if I'm right on this. Is racism still an issue? How far have we actually gone down the path of fixing it entirely? Is there a need for further legislation?
 

alastair

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Indeed, in some parts it obviously still is. As highlighted by Panorama recently. I was more thinking of this country, and whether it is as big an issue as people claim it is in general.
 

JakeC

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There's not been many racist incidents, but one is too many. It should be a broader initiative in my opinion, racism/homophobia etc.
 

Liam147

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Not in English football. I assume you watched the documentary too. My thoughts on it:

John Barnes is an odd man. "There is racism in football still, clubs won't hire you cos you're black." "Have you any proof for that?" "Well, no."

He talks about knowing what the subconscious is of every chairman in football. "They're racist deep down", which is quite frankly a laughable suggestion. It's not much better than the racists themselves. The reality is, black people at the moment do not make good managers. Care to prove me wrong? Let's list some - Keith Alexander, League 2 - died. John Barnes - sacked. Paul Ince - sacked. Terry Connor - relegated. But should The Rooney Rule come into play, we'll say that Fergie resigns tomorrow, we'd have to interview a black manager. Why? There are none capable of the job. Ridiculous suggestion.

Although he did have a point about saying that racism is still there in a covert fashion. David Baddiel put it well, by saying that actually, most of Spurs' fans aren't jews, therefore you can't go around calling 'yourselves' yids, because you're not. When Arsenal fans do it, it's racist, when Spurs fans do it, it's racist. Simple as.

Yes there is a slightly racist element, but by racist, I really mean politically incorrect. Singing the Adebayor song isn't really racist, but it shouldn't really be sung.

It's also worth noting that almost wherever El Racist went, he got booed by opponents, which would suggest Liverpool fans aren't necessarily racist, just overly tribal. But I did find it very refreshing whenever Sunderland or Wigan fans would boo Suarez.
 

stubie

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Harsh reality is racism will never leave Football!
 

alastair

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Not in English football. I assume you watched the documentary too. My thoughts on it:

John Barnes is an odd man. "There is racism in football still, clubs won't hire you cos you're black." "Have you any proof for that?" "Well, no."

He talks about knowing what the subconscious is of every chairman in football. "They're racist deep down", which is quite frankly a laughable suggestion. It's not much better than the racists themselves. The reality is, black people at the moment do not make good managers. Care to prove me wrong? Let's list some - Keith Alexander, League 2 - died. John Barnes - sacked. Paul Ince - sacked. Terry Connor - relegated. But should The Rooney Rule come into play, we'll say that Fergie resigns tomorrow, we'd have to interview a black manager. Why? There are none capable of the job. Ridiculous suggestion.

Although he did have a point about saying that racism is still there in a covert fashion. David Baddiel put it well, by saying that actually, most of Spurs' fans aren't jews, therefore you can't go around calling 'yourselves' yids, because you're not. When Arsenal fans do it, it's racist, when Spurs fans do it, it's racist. Simple as.

Yes there is a slightly racist element, but by racist, I really mean politically incorrect. Singing the Adebayor song isn't really racist, but it shouldn't really be sung.

It's also worth noting that almost wherever El Racist went, he got booed by opponents, which would suggest Liverpool fans aren't necessarily racist, just overly tribal. But I did find it very refreshing whenever Sunderland or Wigan fans would boo Suarez.

Great post, agree with every word.
 

Wonder Pigeon

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So are you talking about football in general or just in England alastair? You say one thing in the OP and another right after.
 

peterstorey

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It's amazing how comments such as 'Black people aren't considered for jobs' are just allowed to pass. They're incredibly offensive.
You're too dismissive of this;

As Race for Opportunity showed as recently as 2009 in its report, Race to the Top , our British black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) workers are simply not gaining the share of management or senior level jobs that their population would justify. Understanding why this is the case will be a major step forward to ending this inequality.
 

alastair

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You're too dismissive of this;

As Race for Opportunity showed as recently as 2009 in its report, Race to the Top , our British black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) workers are simply not gaining the share of management or senior level jobs that their population would justify. Understanding why this is the case will be a major step forward to ending this inequality.
It depends on how you look at it, surely?


Is it racism shown by employers, or is it because they aren't actually applying for the jobs? You'd have a better idea of this than me - which one is it?

For me, it's probably a lot more to do with the socio-economic backgrounds of black people compared to white people that is the main driver of this problem, and not racism.
 

peterstorey

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It depends on how you look at it, surely?


Is it racism shown by employers, or is it because they aren't actually applying for the jobs? You'd have a better idea of this than me - which one is it?

For me, it's probably a lot more to do with the socio-economic backgrounds of black people compared to white people that is the main driver of this problem, and not racism.
Most football managers are ex-players. The percentage of black players in the PL is about 24%. There is one black Pl manager (whose been in post for two minutes). Similar story down the leagues.
 

Wonder Pigeon

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Forgive me mods if this could go in the John Terry thread, but I think it's worthy of its own.

There are an awful lot of people at the moment harping on about how this one incident, mixed in with the Suarez affair, demonstrates that there is a real problem with racism in football at the moment.

As far as I'm concerned, there really isn't one. I've gone to over 300 games(probably wildly inaccurate estimate) across every current Premier League ground, and in Europe. I've been to France, Italy, Turkey, Greece, Spain, Serbia and Ukraine to watch football, and I've never seen a sustained racist chant from any set of supporters I've come across.

The worst thing I've heard is the Adebayor song which still gets aired(although not by Arsenal fans, funnily enough). Apart from that, I'm really struggling to think of a racist incident I've seen, and even that is relatively tame.

So I'd like to know if I'm right on this. Is racism still an issue? How far have we actually gone down the path of fixing it entirely? Is there a need for further legislation?
It's because it was a poor OP.

England primarily.
It's just you mention going to games in places like Spain, Italy etc, and you didn't notice any racist chants. That doesn't mean they don't happen.
 

alastair

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It's just you mention going to games in places like Spain, Italy etc, and you didn't notice any racist chants. That doesn't mean they don't happen.
Of course not, but what I'm saying is that often these countries are assumed to have an absolute nightmare with racism, but when you actually go, you never see it. Obviously it might happen when I'm not there, but it seems strange that you would abuse a black player one week but not the next.
 

Wonder Pigeon

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It might happen when you're not there? Al, don't be silly, of course it has. It doesn't have to happen at every ground every week for it to be a problem.
 

alastair

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It might happen when you're not there? Al, don't be silly, of course it has. It doesn't have to happen at every ground every week for it to be a problem.
Of course not. Obviously it happens when I'm not there. But are the fans not doing it because it's on TV?

What I don't understand is the reasoning behind why racism might happen one week but not the next, if the abuse of black players is a common thing. What brings it on?
 

Liam147

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I'd like to add that Jermaine Jenas made a good point, saying that should Terry be found guilty, he should face the same ban, as "there aren't different levels of racism, racism is racism." Which I like really, it sets a precedent, and let's be honest, there aren't really levels of racism, so it makes it much easier to deal with all racist incidents with an eight-game ban.
 

kietotheworld

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I'd like to add that Jermaine Jenas made a good point, saying that should Terry be found guilty, he should face the same ban, as "there aren't different levels of racism, racism is racism." Which I like really, it sets a precedent, and let's be honest, there aren't really levels of racism, so it makes it much easier to deal with all racist incidents with an eight-game ban.
There are different levels of racism, one of them allegedly used a racial slur once, the other used a racial slur at least 5 times, said he had assaulted an opponent because he's black, and that he doesn't speak to blacks. The latter is, in my eyes, obviously worse than the former.
 

Carl

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Turned my stomach hearing a Spanish lad referring to Welbeck as a Nigger tonight whilst chatting to his mates.

Thought my other half was gunna nut him.
 

Kaush949

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There are different levels of racism, one of them allegedly used a racial slur once, the other used a racial slur at least 5 times, said he had assaulted an opponent because he's black, and that he doesn't speak to blacks. The latter is, in my eyes, obviously worse than the former.
damn, Who was that?
 

Arruda

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Turned my stomach hearing a Spanish lad referring to Welbeck as a Nigger tonight whilst chatting to his mates.

Thought my other half was gunna nut him.
Are you sure it wasn't just a language issue? "Negro" is the PR word for a black person in Portugal for example, and I can imagine a Portuguese saying "nigger" in English totally unaware that it's offensive, even if he apparently has good knowledge of the language, just because the words are so similar. We translate "black" - the colour - as "preto" (which is highly offensive when referring to the race of a person).

I have no idea how it is in Spanish, just pointing out that language limitations can sometimes be the explanation for things like these.

Personally I had no idea "nigger" was highly offensive until relatively recent times, and I have been fluent in English for more than 20 years.
 

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You can understand why they they're singing about Rio but Anton has nothing to this with.
 

Swaters16

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Are you sure it wasn't just a language issue? "Negro" is the PR word for a black person in Portugal for example, and I can imagine a Portuguese saying "nigger" in English totally unaware that it's offensive, even if he apparently has good knowledge of the language, just because the words are so similar. We translate "black" - the colour - as "preto" (which is highly offensive when referring to the race of a person).

I have no idea how it is in Spanish, just pointing out that language limitations can sometimes be the explanation for things like these.

Personally I had no idea "nigger" was highly offensive until relatively recent times, and I have been fluent in English for more than 20 years.
Regardless of a knowledge of the language everyone is aware of the issues surrounding racism. When in English speaking countries, it doesn't matter where you are from, you can't use racist terminology. A careless mistake perhaps but there are a lot of people who would probably start a punch on if they heard some random guy using "N*****"
 

Arruda

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Regardless of a knowledge of the language everyone is aware of the issues surrounding racism. When in English speaking countries, it doesn't matter where you are from, you can't use racist terminology. A careless mistake perhaps but there are a lot of people who would probably start a punch on if they heard some random guy using "N*****"
I don't understand what your point is. Surely it's different if someone uses the word "nigger" as an insult or if they use it due to their ignorance. Which may be inexcusable for a native, but it certainly isn't for a foreigner. Yes, I could be punched for it, but that would be due to the thickness of the person hearing it, not my own fault.

Same applies to you. You go and learn Portuguese at some language institute, come to work here in Portugal, and you're likely to call a black person a "preto" (because you learned that black = preto). I can imagine someone getting offended by that, even in the context of your foreign accent and culture, but I wouldn't think it's your fault, more the fault of the person getting offended by being unable to put it into context.

This opinion is unrelated to the event Carl mentioned, I have no idea what were the intentions of the person he was talking about. I don't even know if the Negro/Preto/Nigger/Black reasoning applies in Spanish in the same way it does in Portuguese.

Google translate knows the difference. I just tried it and it translated "A black person" to "Uma pessoa negra".
 

hp88

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Why the inclusion of Anton in the chant then?

Also the you know what you're chants, what the hell do they mean?
I find the "You know what you're" chant racist but the bonfire chant is just England fans being dicks, we sing the same song but with City and Liverpool instead of Rio and Anton.
 

Mockney

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I sort of half and half agree. The chant per say isn't racist, but the inclusion of Anton is suspect. Unless it's a large Chelsea contingent stirring it up, him being in there doesn't come across well.
 

Steven Seagull

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With half of our team being black it would take a special kind of "person" to start racially abusing the Ferdinands. 90% of people just refuse to engage any of the brain cells they might actually have though, so who knows. Top banter
 

VoetbalWizard

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Are you sure it wasn't just a language issue? "Negro" is the PR word for a black person in Portugal for example, and I can imagine a Portuguese saying "nigger" in English totally unaware that it's offensive, even if he apparently has good knowledge of the language, just because the words are so similar. We translate "black" - the colour - as "preto" (which is highly offensive when referring to the race of a person).

I have no idea how it is in Spanish, just pointing out that language limitations can sometimes be the explanation for things like these.

Personally I had no idea "nigger" was highly offensive until relatively recent times, and I have been fluent in English for more than 20 years.
:eek::eek::eek::eek: i know different countries have different norms/experiences, but bloody hell, with the internet and globalization it took you a long time to learn this?
 

kouroux

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I don't understand what your point is. Surely it's different if someone uses the word "nigger" as an insult or if they use it due to their ignorance. Which may be inexcusable for a native, but it certainly isn't for a foreigner. Yes, I could be punched for it, but that would be due to the thickness of the person hearing it, not my own fault.
.
I think if that foreigner spent a certain while in the country, he has to learn what can be said and what can't to someone.Suarez should have learned the differences between using the word in England and in his country.It's not like he had been in the UK for a week or something.
Then again you have his entire line of defending and Liverpool's which was a complete joke, the entire thing could have been wiped out with a simple "I'm sorry to have used that word towards Evra, I didn't mean in that way etc etc etc ..." Quickly apologize and move on
 

Arruda

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:eek::eek::eek::eek: i know different countries have different norms/experiences, but bloody hell, with the internet and globalization it took you a long time to learn this?
I'm not sure how long it took, I just know it wasn't a perennial knowledge to me, like other more obvious stuff. Think about the word, it's etymology to me, the fact that I hear black people refer to themselves as niggers all the time (in TV, movies, etc) without immediately noticing that whites can't do that... You really need to have witnessed some kind of racial debate or news somewhere to be perceptive of that. Anglo-saxon culture is widely spread, that doesn't mean we all have the obligation to understand every intricacy of it.

And yes kouroux, I wasn't talking about Suarez (don't know if you read it like that). Just about a random bloke who may understand the language but not every meaning of every word and how it is perceived by different people (and in this particular case it seems to also depend on the race of the one saying the word).
 

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I'm calling Arruda out as a racist cnut - absolutely ignorant to the highest level.

Don't play the lost in translation card to us - you're just a fecking racist pleb
 

ItsEssexRob

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Why the inclusion of Anton in the chant then?

Also the you know what you're chants, what the hell do they mean?
I would assume because hes Rios brother?