Racism in Italy - even anti-racism is filled with racism

reelworld

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Even it's very rare that Bulé followed by bad words, at least from my personal experience. I have heard much worse from the word "ginger".
Oh I heard a lot over the years.
I think this stems from the pushback of Indonesian and in general Asian people deification attitude towards westerners with lighter skin shade. I think the word has been use to mock, but it's not used to degrade
Btw, I find we Asians usually very racist (Toward other ethnic or other Asian national), but we never take it seriously, get on with it, etc...
Why? I think that's because we have much much bigger problems than racism.
I agree. Chinese descents in Indonesia have gone through some bad shits through out the years. And Malaysia doesn't help with their bumiputra policy for example.
So although I disagree with @the_answer's opinion, I can understand where his come from.
Yeah, sorry I'm not being serious there
 

Bepi

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:lol:
He really went 0 for 5 on this page
I mean, as a fellow italian I actually understand the historical and cultural reasons behind racism in our country, I just don't understand why the feck they're relevant to the topic. It's fecking racism and it's a very real and very big problem in our country. Understanding where it comes from doesn't make it ok ffs
I am going 0 for 6, only to reply to my street-smart fellow Italian about magnitude of problems: “very real and very big problem in our country” can be currently said per:

- 3 workers/day dying on their duty (so, folks, think twice before taking any inherently unsafe job in Italy);

- 1 woman/day being injured or killed by their abusive partner (so, ladies, think twice before starting a relationship with an Italian man in Italy).

These are very real and very big problems in our country, these days, because they are leading to social unease or unrest. I can add to that list the resurgence of right wing groups joining no-vax and no-science movements causing public havoc in the pandemic attrition, which is being contained and defused again without major incidents.

Again, I am neither denying nor minimising racism of any kind (and the multiple incidents in football stadia are not a good look for sure), I am only trying to explain why thisis not perceived as a bigger matter at large and approached for good.

I mean, get UEFA or FIFA ban Italy and Italian clubs from international competitions for one year, and the damage will probably kickstart a proper response? Until then, saving the personal offence taken by the targeted people, it is perceived as just another bubble, good for social media warriors, clickbaiting media spots and empty posturing.
 

Oly Francis

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I am going 0 for 6, only to reply to my street-smart fellow Italian about magnitude of problems: “very real and very big problem in our country” can be currently said per:

- 3 workers/day dying on their duty (so, folks, think twice before taking any inherently unsafe job in Italy);

- 1 woman/day being injured or killed by their abusive partner (so, ladies, think twice before starting a relationship with an Italian man in Italy).

These are very real and very big problems in our country, these days, because they are leading to social unease or unrest. I can add to that list the resurgence of right wing groups joining no-vax and no-science movements causing public havoc in the pandemic attrition, which is being contained and defused again without major incidents.

Again, I am neither denying nor minimising racism of any kind (and the multiple incidents in football stadia are not a good look for sure), I am only trying to explain why thisis not perceived as a bigger matter at large and approached for good.

I mean, get UEFA or FIFA ban Italy and Italian clubs from international competitions for one year, and the damage will probably kickstart a proper response? Until then, saving the personal offence taken by the targeted people, it is perceived as just another bubble, good for social media warriors, clickbaiting media spots and empty posturing.
I'm pretty surprised and a bit disappointed that you didn't go full on with "there's kids dying of cancer every day so racism is not that big a deal in italy". Close enough though.
 

Withnail

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I am going 0 for 6, only to reply to my street-smart fellow Italian about magnitude of problems: “very real and very big problem in our country” can be currently said per:

- 3 workers/day dying on their duty (so, folks, think twice before taking any inherently unsafe job in Italy);

- 1 woman/day being injured or killed by their abusive partner (so, ladies, think twice before starting a relationship with an Italian man in Italy).

These are very real and very big problems in our country, these days, because they are leading to social unease or unrest. I can add to that list the resurgence of right wing groups joining no-vax and no-science movements causing public havoc in the pandemic attrition, which is being contained and defused again without major incidents.

Again, I am neither denying nor minimising racism of any kind (and the multiple incidents in football stadia are not a good look for sure), I am only trying to explain why thisis not perceived as a bigger matter at large and approached for good.

I mean, get UEFA or FIFA ban Italy and Italian clubs from international competitions for one year, and the damage will probably kickstart a proper response? Until then, saving the personal offence taken by the targeted people, it is perceived as just another bubble, good for social media warriors, clickbaiting media spots and empty posturing.
Saying the bolded part doesn't make it true.

Your posts are minimising these racist incidents because you keep bringing up other issues which you state are more important.

If you wish to discuss wider societal issues in Italy or worldwide then you could always make a thread about that in the General.
 

Bepi

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Saying the bolded part doesn't make it true.

Your posts are minimising these racist incidents because you keep bringing up other issues which you state are more important.

If you wish to discuss wider societal issues in Italy or worldwide then you could always make a thread about that in the General.
Of course I am not doing that, I am just reading the events happening in a country through the lenses of a person knowing that country in depth. Which does not make my opinion truer than yours, just more informed. It also offers tips about how to eradicate the problem (hit clubs in the monies, hit fans in their national passion).You can still pick one word, one phrase, one incident out of its wider context, if you please, and carry on bashing different environments through your own lenses. Your choice, no solution offered, just more blah blah blah.
 

giorno

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If you carefully read through the lines of Bepi's posts you can actually get a pretty stark window into why racism is such a big problem in Italy and why nothing is being done about it

The tl;dr version is "italy doesn't really think it has a racism problem since it doesn't really care about it enough to consider it a problem"
 

TwoSheds

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If you carefully read through the lines of Bepi's posts you can actually get a pretty stark window into why racism is such a big problem in Italy and why nothing is being done about it

The tl;dr version is "italy doesn't really think it has a racism problem since it doesn't really care about it enough to consider it a problem"
Nailed it. It's often the same in Portugal and (I think) probably Spain as well. Although admittedly in Portugal whenever racist incidents happen, a lot of people go one step further with "we're not a racist country" and then ignore the incident.
 

Calidad

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One of the observations that I’d make about Italy, is that they have very little legitimate immigration. Whether it’s been Albanians, Romanians (pre FOM), or more recently, Africans and Asians (pre-dominantly from the Indian sub-continent) there is a consistent pattern of irregular (or illegal) immigration.

Due to the above, the face of immigration in Italy, is often, sadly, illegal street vendors; groups of migrants loitering around town centres, or worse - crime. There isn’t a great precedent for integration or any resident migrant population positively contributing to Italian society in any great numbers. A siginificant proportion don’t even seem particularly interested in learning Italian, simply viewing Italy in transitory terms.

Italy doesn’t really have the infrastructure or economic capability to suitably accomodate (and integrate) the large numbers of people who have reached its shores in recent years, and whilst this doesn’t always necessarily present itself as open hostility, I wouldn’t be surprised if there a general sentiment of discontent, amongst sections of the population.

This offers no explanation for the racism on display in the football stands of course, nor for judging people on the basis of their colour. It’s neanderthal and inexcusable. However, I do think there is context for some of the antipathy towards tackling racism, where it exists, in Italian society.
 

Cheimoon

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I am going 0 for 6, only to reply to my street-smart fellow Italian about magnitude of problems: “very real and very big problem in our country” can be currently said per:

- 3 workers/day dying on their duty (so, folks, think twice before taking any inherently unsafe job in Italy);

- 1 woman/day being injured or killed by their abusive partner (so, ladies, think twice before starting a relationship with an Italian man in Italy).

These are very real and very big problems in our country, these days, because they are leading to social unease or unrest. I can add to that list the resurgence of right wing groups joining no-vax and no-science movements causing public havoc in the pandemic attrition, which is being contained and defused again without major incidents.

Again, I am neither denying nor minimising racism of any kind (and the multiple incidents in football stadia are not a good look for sure), I am only trying to explain why thisis not perceived as a bigger matter at large and approached for good.

I mean, get UEFA or FIFA ban Italy and Italian clubs from international competitions for one year, and the damage will probably kickstart a proper response? Until then, saving the personal offence taken by the targeted people, it is perceived as just another bubble, good for social media warriors, clickbaiting media spots and empty posturing.
So are you then suggesting that racism is a bigger problem in the UK and the US compared to other issues existing there, and that's why they care so much about it? You think that, unlike in Italy, they don't have as many other subjects taking too much of their attention?
 

giorno

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Nailed it. It's often the same in Portugal and (I think) probably Spain as well. Although admittedly in Portugal whenever racist incidents happen, a lot of people go one step further with "we're not a racist country" and then ignore the incident.
Far as i know Spain is actually one of the best countries around when it comes to issues of racism/integration
One of the observations that I’d make about Italy, is that they have very little legitimate immigration. Whether it’s been Albanians, Romanians (pre FOM), or more recently, Africans and Asians (pre-dominantly from the Indian sub-continent) there is a consistent pattern of irregular (or illegal) immigration.

Due to the above, the face of immigration in Italy, is often, sadly, illegal street vendors; groups of migrants loitering around town centres, or worse - crime. There isn’t a great precedent for integration or any resident migrant population positively contributing to Italian society in any great numbers. A siginificant proportion don’t even seem particularly interested in learning Italian, simply viewing Italy in transitory terms.

Italy doesn’t really have the infrastructure or economic capability to suitably accomodate (and integrate) the large numbers of people who have reached its shores in recent years, and whilst this doesn’t always necessarily present itself as open hostility, I wouldn’t be surprised if there a general sentiment of discontent, amongst sections of the population.

This offers no explanation for the racism on display in the football stands of course, nor for judging people on the basis of their colour. It’s neanderthal and inexcusable. However, I do think there is context for some of the antipathy towards tackling racism, where it exists, in Italian society.
All of this is correct, but i like to point out how in the few instances where an effort was made by the local community to integrate the immigrants, they proved to be roaring successes. And the problem with that, is that because said immigrants where here illegally, the city councils got into legal trouble over it. In the most famous case, the mayor of Riace was placed under house arrest after he found work for most of the immigrants in the town and with their help effectively requalified an area of the town that had turned into a ghost town...
 

Oly Francis

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Lazio fan singing "duce", eagle trainer responsing with fascist salutes, "racism not a big problem in italy".

 

FriedClams

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In my opinion, Racism is every bit as deadly as Covid-19 and arguably more. The injustice, the suffering, the amount of division and hatred it has created. It should not be allowed to exist in 2021 and because of social media it appears worse now than it ever has done.

with Vaccines, countries and businesses are saying if you don’t get it, you won’t be able do things/go places/be employed.A similar approach with those found guilty of racism may be the only way to start to eradicate as much of it as possible, and football clubs have a huge part to play in that. The punishments need to be more severe, there can no longer be any kind of tolerance, and the Lazio mascot in the video above should be going to prison.
 
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Cheimoon

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Lazio fan singing "duce", eagle trainer responsing with fascist salutes, "racism not a big problem in italy".

From what I understand, WW2 and Mussolini have not been dealt with appropriately in Italy. Appreciation for Mussolini is scarily present (in small numbers obviously, but not nearly as small as you'd hope or expect it to be).
 

Foxbatt

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It's getting worse actually. How many times has these kinds of incidents happened in Italy? Too many to accept.
They should ban Italian clubs from Europe until it stops. Like the English hooligans who got the English clubs banned from Europe.
 

::sonny::

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Nazi salute at Lazio game
Now suspended by the club

 

Acrobat7

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Lazio fan singing "duce", eagle trainer responsing with fascist salutes, "racism not a big problem in italy".

I am very sure they didn’t want to fire him but had to and will pay him off well. Lazio and their supporters just might be the worst club.
 

Ludens the Red

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If you carefully read through the lines of Bepi's posts you can actually get a pretty stark window into why racism is such a big problem in Italy and why nothing is being done about it

The tl;dr version is "italy doesn't really think it has a racism problem since it doesn't really care about it enough to consider it a problem"
Nailed it. It's often the same in Portugal and (I think) probably Spain as well. Although admittedly in Portugal whenever racist incidents happen, a lot of people go one step further with "we're not a racist country" and then ignore the incident.
Yup… that’s probably the biggest difference between the U.K. and the rest of Europe. I think in the U.K. enough people care and try and tackle the issue so those responsible are rightfully vilified and so your incidents are on a lesser scale and for the most part you’ll be made an example of. I don’t get that vibe from other parts of Europe. And a perfect example of how little a problem or how little the rest of Europe care is the response to taking the knee. You had the taking of the knee mercilessly booed at the home of the third biggest club in Spain on Tuesday. You will never see that happen in England at let’s say Arsenal. I think it’s only Millwall (surprise, surprise) where the booing was so audible. Saw it in Budapest and Poland for the England games too. I don’t think it can be doubted that minorities are seen as ‘lesser’ in some of these nations and so issues affecting them being pushed to the forefront are rejected. Because they’re not important and don’t you dare bring them to our football (where ironically the numbers of minority players continue to increase)
 

joi_division

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In my mothers lifetime Indigenous Australians were not allowed to vote yet. Australia is now one of the most progressive in the world just as much as England is. Let things take course around the world in it's own time. Every country cant reach the same mentality at the same moment when they all have their own unique cultural circumstances and battles going on and it gets worse the further east you go across Europe. It's easy to point the finger at other countries but lets not forget the Lingard and Sterling incidents in recent years but we'll say the football stands always are a poor representation of society and it's the same around the world.

The below photo was taken in 1995. Things change but it doesn't happen overnight.

 

TwoSheds

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And they especially don't change if nobody calls bullshit out when they see it. If anything extreme right politics and racism is getting more extreme in recent years not better.
 

Oly Francis

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I am very sure they didn’t want to fire him but had to and will pay him off well. Lazio and their supporters just might be the worst club.
Lazio is bad but the worst club in Italy is probably Hellas Verona. Verona is one of the most racist city in Italy.
 

Cheimoon

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In my mothers lifetime Indigenous Australians were not allowed to vote yet. Australia is now one of the most progressive in the world just as much as England is. Let things take course around the world in it's own time. Every country cant reach the same mentality at the same moment when they all have their own unique cultural circumstances and battles going on and it gets worse the further east you go across Europe. It's easy to point the finger at other countries but lets not forget the Lingard and Sterling incidents in recent years but we'll say the football stands always are a poor representation of society and it's the same around the world.

The below photo was taken in 1995. Things change but it doesn't happen overnight.

Change can happen very quickly with a right kinds of impetus behind them though. And change anyway mostly happens because people advocate and protest for it. That in turn requires exposing the issues that need change - which is what the sort of discussion we're having in this thread does. So if your point is that people should back off the Italians and let them handle change at their own pace - then I disagree.
 

KirkDuyt

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In my mothers lifetime Indigenous Australians were not allowed to vote yet. Australia is now one of the most progressive in the world just as much as England is. Let things take course around the world in it's own time. Every country cant reach the same mentality at the same moment when they all have their own unique cultural circumstances and battles going on and it gets worse the further east you go across Europe. It's easy to point the finger at other countries but lets not forget the Lingard and Sterling incidents in recent years but we'll say the football stands always are a poor representation of society and it's the same around the world.

The below photo was taken in 1995. Things change but it doesn't happen overnight.

Is England that progressive though? With their Queen and their Ali Express Donald Trump as PM.
 

RoyH1

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Lazio is bad but the worst club in Italy is probably Hellas Verona. Verona is one of the most racist city in Italy.
It's crazy that there can be a club worse than Lazio at the top level in one of the big five leagues. But yeah, I remember a long time ago when they hung a dummy depicting a black player from the stands. It made news even when such things didn't make the news.
 

giorno

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Lazio is bad but the worst club in Italy is probably Hellas Verona. Verona is one of the most racist city in Italy.
Mmmh Hellas ultras have calmed down a lot in recent years. Still racist scum, but Lazio's ultras are much worse. All fascists/neo-nazis though so it's just a matter of who's more active. Hellas ultras don't have the power of lazio's either, so the club's done a better job policing them

You're right about Verona the city. Real pity too because the city itself is spectacular
 

giorno

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I am very sure they didn’t want to fire him but had to and will pay him off well. Lazio and their supporters just might be the worst club.
Club isn't fascist, they just have very powerful ultras and lack the ability to keep them away or under control

As for the guy: that's fascist apologism. So should be a few years in jail for him
 

Oly Francis

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Mmmh Hellas ultras have calmed down a lot in recent years. Still racist scum, but Lazio's ultras are much worse. All fascists/neo-nazis though so it's just a matter of who's more active. Hellas ultras don't have the power of lazio's either, so the club's done a better job policing them

You're right about Verona the city. Real pity too because the city itself is spectacular
Thanks for your insight, my info might have been a little outdated! I know it was REALLY bad for a while.
 

Righteous Steps

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Is England that progressive though? With their Queen and their Ali Express Donald Trump as PM.
Yes more than any other European nation most certainly, but the culture in the Uk is more aligned to US, in no other European country have for example people from African descent made such a big impact, racism is still rife regardless but I think England stands alone in terms of African or Asian Influence on the dominating culture.
 

Oly Francis

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Yes more than any other European nation most certainly, but the culture in the Uk is more aligned to US, in no other European country have for example people from African descent made such a big impact, racism is still rife regardless but I think England stands alone in terms of African or Asian Influence on the dominating culture.
I'm not sure about the "influence" aspect of your argument since France for exemple integrated a lot of elements from north african cultures but it's true that you don't have a popular ultra right wing arguing that you need to "re-imigrate" most english citizens with african/arabic origins.
 

The Firestarter

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Club isn't fascist, they just have very powerful ultras and lack the ability to keep them away or under control

As for the guy: that's fascist apologism. So should be a few years in jail for him
I guess it didn't help that one of their biggest legends was kind of a nazi.
 

GueRed

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Italy is one of the most racist countries in Europe tbh

I know Filipino's who work out there and are on the end of racial abuse on the daily.
 

McGrathsipan

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In my mothers lifetime Indigenous Australians were not allowed to vote yet. Australia is now one of the most progressive in the world just as much as England is. Let things take course around the world in it's own time. Every country cant reach the same mentality at the same moment when they all have their own unique cultural circumstances and battles going on and it gets worse the further east you go across Europe. It's easy to point the finger at other countries but lets not forget the Lingard and Sterling incidents in recent years but we'll say the football stands always are a poor representation of society and it's the same around the world.

The below photo was taken in 1995. Things change but it doesn't happen overnight.

That photo is Landsdowne Road west stand.
Ireland v England.

Very much a race incited riot started by those fans you see there. Ended the match after 27 mins
 

Pickle85

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Lazio fan singing "duce", eagle trainer responsing with fascist salutes, "racism not a big problem in italy".

Not only is this absolutely disgraceful but you have to be a special kind of stupid to do that in your professional capacity in the era of camera phones. Fascist scum and a disgusting club.
 

GueRed

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One of my mates english but ethnically a Korean lad went down backpacking in italy there couple years back encountered alot of racism too.

It's rife.