Racism in Italy - even anti-racism is filled with racism

Superden

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the minute Lukaku's actions are mentioned (whether its moving to italy in the first place or any response to the racism) then its an attempt to deflect attention away from the racism or somehow (intentionally or not) justify it. Lukaku should be free to play / work / visit wherever the fook he likes. He also shouldnt have to use the racist abuse as any form of motivation (as suggested above), it is nothing to do with him, he is NO agent in the racism. He is purely the victim of it. Anyone framing it any other way is justifying racism.
 
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GenZRed

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Pretty snide thing about that letter trying to say that racism is a 'REAL problem' in Northern Europe.

Yeah totally, that is why hundreds of thousands of people from different backgrounds move to Northern Europe each year.
 

Florida Man

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No sympathy for him whatsoever. Rightly or wrongly (and let's be honest, it is very wrong) he knew, or at least should have known, what he was getting himself into when he agreed to go to Italy. I can't work out if it's pure naivety on his part, or whether he just considered any potential racial abuse to be a small obstacle in the search for big money and Champions League football.
This is dumb and you should feel dumb for saying dumb things.
 

Sayros

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Pretty snide thing about that letter trying to say that racism is a 'REAL problem' in Northern Europe.

Yeah totally, that is why hundreds of thousands of people from different backgrounds move to Northern Europe each year.
I don't see how one has to do with another. The people moving to Norther Europe often times come from places where there's far bigger problems than racism there, it doesn't make it acceptable to have it in football stadiums.
 

VP89

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Has any club ever been deducted points for failure to tackle racist chanting? I think that should be considered the first step to tackle these persistent issues.
Sadly those running Serie A are as dirty as the ultras.
 

SilverPaper on the Breeze

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What would the authorities do if Real are playing away in Italy and the fans pull out the monkey chants and bananas for Gareth Bale?

(For the record, I deplore racism and the above question is asked in a mixture of whimsy and curiosity)
 

Pagh Wraith

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It wouldn't be racism so nothing would happen. People used to throw bananas at Oliver Kahn as well.
 

Gazza

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What would the authorities do if Real are playing away in Italy and the fans pull out the monkey chants and bananas for Gareth Bale?

(For the record, I deplore racism and the above question is asked in a mixture of whimsy and curiosity)
Sorry, I’m still not understanding the purpose of this post, even with the disclaimer. Am I missing the joke/point, maybe?
 

kouroux

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What would the authorities do if Real are playing away in Italy and the fans pull out the monkey chants and bananas for Gareth Bale?

(For the record, I deplore racism and the above question is asked in a mixture of whimsy and curiosity)
Yeah right " for the record".... There is no relevance to your question. Monkey chants aimed at Bale and monkey chants aimed at Lukaku have feck all in common in terms of meaning.
 

Tostao_80

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What would the authorities do if Real are playing away in Italy and the fans pull out the monkey chants and bananas for Gareth Bale?

(For the record, I deplore racism and the above question is asked in a mixture of whimsy and curiosity)
Are you too dense to not realise the difference between monkey chants to a black and monkey chants to a white player?
And i like you're little disclaimer at the end so transparent
 

USREDEVIL

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Are you too dense to not realize the difference between monkey chants to a black and monkey chants to a white player?
And i like you're little disclaimer at the end so transparent
Some people just don't "get it." Don't bother. Same type of person that says "you can call me a honkey and i wouldn't care" - completely ignoring the decades of socialized racism that other people have gone through (and still are in some places).
 

Beagle

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No sympathy for him whatsoever. Rightly or wrongly (and let's be honest, it is very wrong) he knew, or at least should have known, what he was getting himself into when he agreed to go to Italy. I can't work out if it's pure naivety on his part, or whether he just considered any potential racial abuse to be a small obstacle in the search for big money and Champions League football.
So people of different races should avoid Italy altogether? Running away from the problem does nothing to fix it. You are being extremely naive. The prerogative is on Italian governing bodies to fix the problem instead of victims being forced to run away.
 

kouroux

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So people of different races should avoid Italy altogether? Running away from the problem does nothing to fix it. You are being extremely naive. The prerogative is on Italian governing bodies to fix the problem instead of victims being forced to run away.
There are some italians of african descents who play their football too. This racism situation goes way beyond just Lukaku which some posters cannot seem to realize.
 

Hawks2008

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Fascist scum doing scummy things. Shocker.

No place for things like this in society let alone football and that letter is disgraceful.
 

ThatsGreat

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Downplaying this to intimidation and cheerleading perhaps says more about you as an individual. You seem to be condoning racism without realising it. Monkey chants to black players are racists, no if or buts. Take a closer look at yourself.
I'm not downplaying this, I'm saying that the fact that racism is being used as a tool for intimidation should not be overlooked. And I'm a person of colour myself, I've been to Italy and haven't faced any overt racism on the streets of Rome/Milan. Its not a Italian thing, its an Italian football thing. And read my initial comment, I clearly mention that its the responsibility of the authorities to stamp out this form of intimidation I'm not encouraging it.
 

kouroux

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I'm not downplaying this, I'm saying that the fact that racism is being used as a tool for intimidation should not be overlooked. And I'm a person of colour myself, I've been to Italy and haven't faced any overt racism on the streets of Rome/Milan. Its not a Italian thing, its an Italian football thing. And read my initial comment, I clearly mention that its the responsibility of the authorities to stamp out this form of intimidation I'm not encouraging it.
I'm sorry but your personnal experience is one thing and on the other is that there have been black people racially abused in Italy in environnement not related to people. People who have been living there have seen it first hand so you cannot say it's just football related
 

ThatsGreat

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I'm sorry but your personnal experience is one thing and on the other is that there have been black people racially abused in Italy in environnement not related to people. People who have been living there have seen it first hand so you cannot say it's just football related
Really? That's news to me, Ive even got a couple of FB friends from Italy in my vegan group. Would you say that the racial abuse incidents in Italy is more than the average racial abuse incidents faced in predominantly white countries.
 

Tarrou

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Really? That's news to me, Ive even got a couple of FB friends from Italy in my vegan group. Would you say that the racial abuse incidents in Italy is more than the average racial abuse incidents faced in predominantly white countries.
I've lived in Italy and from my own, albeit narrow view-point, having spent a lot of time on trains and public transport while I was there, is that racism is more predominant in Italy than most European countries
 

kouroux

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Really? That's news to me, Ive even got a couple of FB friends from Italy in my vegan group. Would you say that the racial abuse incidents in Italy is more than the average racial abuse incidents faced in predominantly white countries.
I'm only going from what I heard from friends who went there for work. I have never been to Italy long enough (one weekend) to notice it anything serious. I have lived in France for a long time, there is racism like anywhere in the world but I have had a good life, I have never endured more than some bad jokes here and there
 

Withnail

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Really? That's news to me, Ive even got a couple of FB friends from Italy in my vegan group. Would you say that the racial abuse incidents in Italy is more than the average racial abuse incidents faced in predominantly white countries.
Are you seriously saying you don't think Italy has a problem with racism cos your Vegan FB friends aren't spouting racism in between extolling the virtues of a plant-based diet?
 

ThatsGreat

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I've lived in Italy and from my own, albeit narrow view-point, having spent a lot of time on trains and public transport while I was there, is that racism is more predominant in Italy than most European countries
I'm only going from what I heard from friends who went there for work. I have never been to Italy long enough (one weekend) to notice it anything serious. I have lived in France for a long time, there is racism like anywhere in the world but I have had a good life, I have never endured more than some bad jokes here and there
Okay, I guess I stand corrected then(if your views are facts). Are there any Italians in this forum, lets ban them :devil:
Are you seriously saying you don't think Italy has a problem with racism cos your Vegan FB friends aren't spouting racism in between extolling the virtues of a plant-based diet?
Are you an anti veganist.(Seinfeld reference). I just really asked for more data because my anecdotal views don't paint Italy as racist. But I guess its possible I stuck to the tourist trail so only met with people looking to give a good impression of their country.
 

SilverPaper on the Breeze

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Yeah right " for the record".... There is no relevance to your question. Monkey chants aimed at Bale and monkey chants aimed at Lukaku have feck all in common in terms of meaning.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear though I am thoroughly unsurprised by the opprobrium in response; do you not think such an action may have relevance? And potentially in both a positive and negative stance, if used by the ultras who, in Italy, are a massive force and do spectacular displays? Monkey chants/bananas etc could be used against Bale either as a way of trolling the authorities or, and perhaps more hopefully, in a subversive way. Could it be used in some way to mock the racists? Show how thoroughly ludicrous it is to compare black people to monkeys when it patently isn’t true, whereas Gareth Bale has a massively extended mandible which makes him look a LOT like a monkey? Romelu Lukaku looks less like a monkey than he does a footballer that can trap a ball first time.

I genuinely believe that’s a more potent way of tackling racism; use ultra culture and wit (which they do display frequently as well as the less savoury stuff) against racist behaviour rather than a take a po-faced, haughty, holier than thou stance. They’ve done that for years and it’s not really worked.

You may agree or disagree with my view, but I don’t think you change anyone’s attitude by calling them a c*nt with a snarl on your face, no matter how deplorable their views. Indeed, you more than likely entrench their views through such actions.

This is actually at the heart of the problem in society, the setting of ourselves into camps, on any side, taking a stance of moral superiority and treating the “other” with hostility.
 

Tarrou

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Okay, I guess I stand corrected then(if your views are facts). Are there any Italians in this forum, lets ban them :devil:

Are you an anti veganist.(Seinfeld reference). I just really asked for more data because my anecdotal views don't paint Italy as racist. But I guess its possible I stuck to the tourist trail so only met with people looking to give a good impression of their country.
Well please don't consider my view as 'fact'. Racism exists everywhere, and even if I think it's more prevalent than say the UK or France, it's still very much a minority of idiots in the population.
 

The Boy

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My point was that as a high profile black player moving to Italy, he must have known that there was a significant chance that this was going to happen. I'm not at all condoning it. I simply don't understand why he would move there in the first place.
Good that we inserted a sell on clause in his contract then. He wont last there for more than a couple of seasons. Saw this coming a mile away. Why he wanted to go there when he couldn’t handle the 24 inch chant here is beyond me.
He said that all black players should leave Serie A for racial abuse... then where they should play if these cases (on a bigger or smaller scale) are happening everywhere in “European” football (even though I struggle to call Turkey Europe)?? This is utter no sense again, he just want to attract back the notoriety that probably lost due his escape in China and Turkey. Pathetic moralism
What would the authorities do if Real are playing away in Italy and the fans pull out the monkey chants and bananas for Gareth Bale?
Wow some classy newbies coming though.....

Black Players should stand up for each other during the match, not after the match.

If for example Sterling is getting racially abused by United fans at Old Trafford, I expect Pogba, Rashford etc, to say feck it, this is not worth it, and walk away and abandon the match. But these guys never do it, they'd rather respect people and organisations that don't respect em. Racism is just waay to important than finishing a football match.
It shouldn't the responsibility of just black players to stand up against racism. It should be everyone, if a player is racially abused all players, coaches physios, heck, even supporters should walk away regardless of background
 

kouroux

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Perhaps I wasn’t clear though I am thoroughly unsurprised by the opprobrium in response; do you not think such an action may have relevance? And potentially in both a positive and negative stance, if used by the ultras who, in Italy, are a massive force and do spectacular displays? Monkey chants/bananas etc could be used against Bale either as a way of trolling the authorities or, and perhaps more hopefully, in a subversive way. Could it be used in some way to mock the racists? Show how thoroughly ludicrous it is to compare black people to monkeys when it patently isn’t true, whereas Gareth Bale has a massively extended mandible which makes him look a LOT like a monkey? Romelu Lukaku looks less like a monkey than he does a footballer that can trap a ball first time.

I genuinely believe that’s a more potent way of tackling racism; use ultra culture and wit (which they do display frequently as well as the less savoury stuff) against racist behaviour rather than a take a po-faced, haughty, holier than thou stance. They’ve done that for years and it’s not really worked.

You may agree or disagree with my view, but I don’t think you change anyone’s attitude by calling them a c*nt with a snarl on your face, no matter how deplorable their views. Indeed, you more than likely entrench their views through such actions.

This is actually at the heart of the problem in society, the setting of ourselves into camps, on any side, taking a stance of moral superiority and treating the “other” with hostility.
I am not here for a debate, I'm not here to change your opinion. A subject like this one is fairly crystal clear, there is no relevance between the 2 situations (Bale and any black player mocked in that fashion), none whatsoever.

The fact that you could be open for a comparison says that you don'y grasp the concept of racism at all. It has nothing to do with taking a holier-than-thou but more about my bemusement about your lack of sense.

If we consider the average of the racist ultras, it will be hard to change their views on the subject, most of them are hardcore about their beliefs. The best way to tackle it, is to work on youth.
 

Bennz McCarthey17

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It shouldn't the responsibility of just black players to stand up against racism. It should be everyone, if a player is racially abused all players, coaches physios, heck, even supporters should walk away regardless of background[/QUOTE]

100% correct in a dream world. But reality is harsh, even some team mates, Bosses or staff members are racists. Some don't even understand the reaction of black players to the chants i.e Bonucci last season. So I'm sayin it starts with us Blacks, then others will follow.
 

GenZRed

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I don't see how one has to do with another. The people moving to Norther Europe often times come from places where there's far bigger problems than racism there, it doesn't make it acceptable to have it in football stadiums.
Ok allow me to explain.

If Northern Europe was so bad in terms of racism, people from all over the world would not move here. If Northern Europe was so bad, they would not move here and instead go to places that are supposedly not so racist. Northern Europe countries (such as the Scandinavian countries) score high in happiness indexes, so those countries are obviously very livable.
 

kouroux

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Okay, I guess I stand corrected then(if your views are facts). Are there any Italians in this forum, lets ban them :devil:

Are you an anti veganist.(Seinfeld reference). I just really asked for more data because my anecdotal views don't paint Italy as racist. But I guess its possible I stuck to the tourist trail so only met with people looking to give a good impression of their country.
Damn. Sometimes I just don't know what to say
 

villain

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I swear this forum has gotten worse with these threads about racism in the past year or so.

This thread is just spilling over with ignorance.
 

SilverPaper on the Breeze

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I swear this forum has gotten worse with these threads about racism in the past year or so.

This thread is just spilling over with ignorance.
What do you qualify as ignorance?
I’d argue that people use the word “racist” erroneously and ignorantly (though not really in the Lukaku case).

I can’t comment on the situation in Italy, I don’t think anyone not living there can, but in Britain people conflate the word “racism” with “culturalism”. Racism is, by its definition, the assertion of genetic superiority of one race over another (see Nazi germany for the clearest example). I would say that bar a tiny, fringe minority, almost no one in Britain thinks they’re genetically superior on the basis of melanin levels in their skin. Too many BAME politicians, doctors, lawyers, sportsmen etc for the argument to stand up. There’s clearly no superior race on the basis of skin colour, it has been demonstrably proven.
Instead, people assert the superiority of their culture over another, which is why your Tommy Robinson’s etc target Muslims almost exclusively. They’re not complaining that they’re brown, it’s the Koran, the Niqab etc that draw their ire.

Race, culture and the conflicts they create are complex but the situation is improving, despite the rhetoric to the contrary. The Britain of my childhood was vastly more racist than the one of today, but progress is slower than we’d like. However, when you’ve got an ageing population and more old people than ever before in human history, and the completely undiscussed impact that has on the speed of social progress, one can’t expect things to improve overnight.

Either that or I’m dense, unthinking and completely ignorant...
 

Withnail

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Instead, people assert the superiority of their culture over another, which is why your Tommy Robinson’s etc target Muslims almost exclusively. They’re not complaining that they’re brown, it’s the Koran, the Niqab etc that draw their ire.
I don't go along with your narrow definition of racism at all. Prejudice etc can be subconcious or may not necessarily be overt and can still be racism.

As for the bolded part I don't know where to start. If you take the crap Yaxley-Lennon spouts at face value and are trying to claim he and his knuckle-dragging followers are not actually racist I'd say look a bit deeper.
 

villain

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What do you qualify as ignorance?
I’d argue that people use the word “racist” erroneously and ignorantly (though not really in the Lukaku case).

I can’t comment on the situation in Italy, I don’t think anyone not living there can, but in Britain people conflate the word “racism” with “culturalism”. Racism is, by its definition, the assertion of genetic superiority of one race over another (see Nazi germany for the clearest example). I would say that bar a tiny, fringe minority, almost no one in Britain thinks they’re genetically superior on the basis of melanin levels in their skin. Too many BAME politicians, doctors, lawyers, sportsmen etc for the argument to stand up. There’s clearly no superior race on the basis of skin colour, it has been demonstrably proven.
Instead, people assert the superiority of their culture over another, which is why your Tommy Robinson’s etc target Muslims almost exclusively. They’re not complaining that they’re brown, it’s the Koran, the Niqab etc that draw their ire.

Race, culture and the conflicts they create are complex but the situation is improving, despite the rhetoric to the contrary. The Britain of my childhood was vastly more racist than the one of today, but progress is slower than we’d like. However, when you’ve got an ageing population and more old people than ever before in human history, and the completely undiscussed impact that has on the speed of social progress, one can’t expect things to improve overnight.

Either that or I’m dense, unthinking and completely ignorant...
If you think racism can only be understood by its dictionary definition - then there's no conversation for us to have.