Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match

Chesterlestreet

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I don't know, just random thoughts.
Not irrelevant ones, though - I suspect many of us have been musing along the same lines.

Anecdote time:

A few years ago, my sister went to pick up my nephew from kindergarten. He was around 3 at the time. She asked him what he'd done that day, who he had played with, and so forth. Well, he'd mostly played with X - he said. My sister, not being entirely sure who X was, asked: "Who's X, then - is that the Black kid?" There was only one Black (male) kid in my nephew's age group in that particular kindergarten at the time. My nephew didn't quite understand what she meant, but after a moment's hesitation he said: "He's got a yellow jacket."

Now he's six. And now he refers to certain of his school mates as being "brown" (as opposed to himself, who is not "brown"). I recently asked him - after hearing him refer to X as "brown" - what he, himself was: "So, he's brown - what are you then, are you white?" He denied this - because "white" is the colour of, say, snow or a sheet of paper. He wasn't sure what to call the colour of his own skin, but it definitely wasn't "white".
 

Stacks

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This is going be a bit of a ramble, not even sure where I'm going with this or making a point at all.

He may have said "that white man over there" if there was just one white men amongst a group of non-white man. Probably not though, and I think that's because the official himself was white. If it was non-white official , coming from a majority non-white country pointing at the only white man I think there's quite a high chance that would be said.

I think that's because people will often simply notice who is different to them, or different from the majority if they live in a country where people are generally one race or ethnicity. Certain people will stand out. Now that itself is going into the territory of "othering" I suppose, which as I understand means to categorise people into your group and outsiders. Othering is seen as bad as if you can you do that then you can go from there to my group = good, outside group = bad. Now you don't necessarily have to go there but I think that's seen as the big danger when it comes that sort of thing as far as I understand. You could acknowledge or notice difference without acting that way but it's that fear that drives colour-blindness theories I believe.

Mind you, for anyone to have an identity at all to do with race or ethnicity must by some logic mean they are othering others too. Society doesn't seem to tell a black person not to think of themselves as black, a white person as white etc. currently. In fact it seems that the opposite is true a lot of the time, that we're all supposed to be hyper-aware of our skin colour at all times and those around us. To be aware of such a thing obviously means you need to be able to define what group you are in and by extension those who aren't must be outside it. Basic logic.

I don't know, just random thoughts.
Good points.
 

Tomuś

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Depends. Context matters.

"Romelu Lukaku is black, Harry Kane is white." -> Nothing wrong.

"Hey you, yeah you black one. Go pick up that garbage." -> Problem

Referee in a CL match (so in a professional context) calling an assistant coach "the black one over there" -> Problem
Context is all of their staff are white. If it was the other way round then no doubt the ref would've said 'the white one'.
 

Olly Gunnar Solskjær

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Just when I think threads regarding racism on here can't shock me any more, we get people saying that the phrase "hey mister black man" is perfectly fine. I actually laughed reading that it's so ridiculous.
 

Kappa123

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Just because Ba is black doesn't mean that he's experienced racism. He probably doesn't even understand the whole situation.

On the contrary, even though I'm white I may very well have a better grasp on racism against blacks than him. Fascinating.
 

Synco

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The weirdest thing about the incident is the fact that referees didn't expel more people and sooner, I don't know what Webo did or said but I would be surprised if it was worse than the other things we can hear in the various videos.
I guess there are these tense games where the 4th official is subjected to a steady stream of annoyed comments and low-level abuse. Just that it's normally drowned out by crowd noise. The ref team might simply have tolerated it for a while before finally intervening.
 

NotThatSoph

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Just because Ba is black doesn't mean that he's experienced racism. He probably doesn't even understand the whole situation.

On the contrary, even though I'm white I may very well have a better grasp on racism against blacks than him. Fascinating.
Quoting for posterity. You're not only calling him a liar for what he experienced in China and at West Ham, you think he hasn't experienced any racism that he hasn't told you about.

fecking Internet, such a mistake. "Against blacks" as well, the cherry on top.
 

Gehrman

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Just because Ba is black doesn't mean that he's experienced racism. He probably doesn't even understand the whole situation.

On the contrary, even though I'm white I may very well have a better grasp on racism against blacks than him. Fascinating.
I hope you aren't being serious.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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Just because Ba is black doesn't mean that he's experienced racism. He probably doesn't even understand the whole situation.

On the contrary, even though I'm white I may very well have a better grasp on racism against blacks than him. Fascinating.
Demba Ba has in fact experienced racism. This is pretty well documented as well as there was an incident in which an opposition player repeatedly called Ba "You black. You black" which prompted Ba to remonstrate.
 

kouroux

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If he doesn't know his dumb, he can point him by his finger. Describing his skin color was the most convenient thing to do for the ref, it doesn't excuse what he said which is offensive, just explaining it from his POV.
The way the Istanbul and PSG players/staff reacted is perfectly natural, black people are understandly very sensitive to these things.
Still, I hope the ref survives this and doesn't get sacrificed. You learn more educating than punishing
 

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I read in an article that Webo was called lots of time "black monkey" and "crow" when he played in Osmanispor in Turkish League.

He said ,"it happens,but we should not hype this,less attention,better."
Double standarts ..He evade to talk about this cause he got payed and you could have problems inside Turkey.
 

Cheimoon

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Thanks for clearing that up. That's what I thought you meant. We've head people here claiming 'noone has said that!', when of course you have.

An absolutely barking mad proposition.
Happy to help.

So, what's your proposal to avoid these incidents? It's only the first, but these sensitivities are not going away and are only getting stronger - and now players have seen what speaking out can accomplish. What would be your plan?
 

Andersonson

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Webo was angry because he was called a negro.

All evidence claims the official didnt say negro.

Webo got his red card lifted. The official is now a racist and might lose his job.

If anything this is bad for the fight against racism.
 

dumbo

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I don't see the issue here. The official was simply committing to a universal realist interpretation of the forms. Demba Ba should step out of his nominalist echo chamber.

It's Platonic contentiousness gone mad.
 

Moonwalker

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Happy to help.

So, what's your proposal to avoid these incidents? It's only the first, but these sensitivities are not going away and are only getting stronger - and now players have seen what speaking out can accomplish. What would be your plan?
There are two issues here. One is referring to someone using the color of their skin while talking to a third party, even if you are using completely acceptable language (Demba Ba's complaint). I'd say Ba is right in point of principle, the complaint is valid, if a bit academic. You can obviously avoid it by walking up to the person and pointing your finger at them (even though I was brought up to think it's rude to point your finger at people).

The second issue is using a word that might sound like an offensive word in another language. Given the sheer linguistic variance, that's potentially any word , which would then mean you're better off not speaking at all. But never minding that practical problem, just as a principle, from a normative point of view, it would be a validation of one's ignorance to the detriment of the innocent party. How about we explain to people that they shouldn't take offense before they understand what's being uttered in another language? Seems like the most basic and commonsensical principle to abide by. Surely a better way to go about things than saying "you know what, I don't know if you've said anything wrong or not and I don't even speak your language, but why don't you go and re-arrange your whole language, for my benefit, so we can avoid this error on my part?" It's just fatuous in the extreme.

Then there's actually a third issue over whether you should avoid synophones only if they sound bad in a very specific language, which quite rightly prompts complaints over cultural imperialism. I'm an anglophile myself, and I don't mind English in the slightest. I'm okay if it's lingua franca out of convenience, but to make an explicit normative demand for other cultures to conform to it (contextually, not just as a tool of communication) is egregious anglocentric hubris.
 

rcoobc

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It seems pretty clear that the original reaction by the players and staff was because they thought the assistant had said something he didn't

The conversation about what language should be used is important, and after this no doubt FIFA/UEFA will announce a directive not to describe players by their racial features and only use their player numbers and names.
 

ChatBat

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Btw a funny side note. Romanian language has a variant of the south american "negrito" which is "negrotel" or "negrotei". That word is actually racist and is only used in a racist situation.
 

rcoobc

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What's perplexing you so? Feel free to tell me.
I am an anglophile - someone who likes English and English language culture.

And I don't mind English in the slightest - that's rather reduced from being an anglophile. An anglophile is pro English, a "don't mind English" is someone who "doesn't mind English".

I'm okay if it's lingua franca out of convenience, but to make an explicit normative demand for other cultures to conform to it (contextually, not just as a tool of communication) is egregious anglocentric hubris.

This last bit I agree with although I don't think anyone demanded everyone else conform to it so don't know what you are getting at.

Just to be clear

The match was between a French Team and Turkish Team with Romanian Officials and an alleged racism incident against a Cameron player.

Why are you bringing up English?
 

Rado_N

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Just because Ba is black doesn't mean that he's experienced racism. He probably doesn't even understand the whole situation.

On the contrary, even though I'm white I may very well have a better grasp on racism against blacks than him. Fascinating.
The only fascinating thing here is that your brain enabled you to type all those words.
 

Moonwalker

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I am an anglophile - someone who likes English and English language culture.

And I don't mind English in the slightest - that's rather reduced from being an anglophile. An anglophile is pro English, a "don't mind English" is someone who "doesn't mind English".

I'm okay if it's lingua franca out of convenience, but to make an explicit normative demand for other cultures to conform to it (contextually, not just as a tool of communication) is egregious anglocentric hubris.

This last bit I agree with although I don't think anyone demanded everyone else conform to it so don't know what you are getting at.

Just to be clear

The match was between a French Team and Turkish Team with Romanian Officials and an alleged racism incident against a Cameron player.

Why are you bringing up English?
Of all the things to quarrel about you pick that understatement. Of course, it doesn't so much reduce anything as much as it's redundant so I plead guilty to not being terse enough. Glad we cleared that extremely important issue up.

You can only understand what I'm getting at if you bother to read previous posts (in that exchange if not the whole thread). If you can't be bothered to do that, that's fair enough too, but then don't blame me for your bemusement.
 

Hammerfell

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Just because Ba is black doesn't mean that he's experienced racism. He probably doesn't even understand the whole situation.

On the contrary, even though I'm white I may very well have a better grasp on racism against blacks than him. Fascinating.
Please make that your last post.
 

Doracle

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This is going be a bit of a ramble, not even sure where I'm going with this or making a point at all.

He may have said "that white man over there" if there was just one white men amongst a group of non-white man. Probably not though, and I think that's because the official himself was white. If it was non-white official , coming from a majority non-white country pointing at the only white man I think there's quite a high chance that would be said.

I think that's because people will often simply notice who is different to them, or different from the majority if they live in a country where people are generally one race or ethnicity. Certain people will stand out. Now that itself is going into the territory of "othering" I suppose, which as I understand means to categorise people into your group and outsiders. Othering is seen as bad as if you can you do that then you can go from there to my group = good, outside group = bad. Now you don't necessarily have to go there but I think that's seen as the big danger when it comes that sort of thing as far as I understand. You could acknowledge or notice difference without acting that way but it's that fear that drives colour-blindness theories I believe.
I’d slightly disagree with that. Seeing one white guy in a group is more unusual in Europe and stands out more, so someone would be more likely to say it. I’ve played football matches where the majority of the opposition was black and we were definitely referring to the one white guy as that - not by his shirt number.
 

rcoobc

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Of all the things to quarrel about you pick that understatement. Of course, it doesn't so much reduce anything as much as it's redundant so I plead guilty to not being terse enough. Glad we cleared that extremely important issue up.

You can only understand what I'm getting at if you bother to read previous posts (in that exchange if not the whole thread). If you can't be bothered to do that, that's fair enough too, but then don't blame me for your bemusement.
Fair enough, but I stil think an "eh?" Is justified when an anglophile says they "don't mind English" :lol:

That's like a fish not minding water
 

Doracle

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It seems pretty clear that the original reaction by the players and staff was because they thought the assistant had said something he didn't

The conversation about what language should be used is important, and after this no doubt FIFA/UEFA will announce a directive not to describe players by their racial features and only use their player numbers and names.
Yeah, I think I’d like something like that to be the outcome. Something like “we are satisfied that the official in this case did not have any racist intent but to avoid any similar issues in future...”. Possibly they could ensure that all coaches have initials on their clothes so that they can be easily identified even if the official doesn’t know their name? Of course, that’s assuming it is found that he was only using the word as an identifier, not somehow in a pejorative way.
 

Moonwalker

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Fair enough, but I stil think an "eh?" Is justified when an anglophile says they "don't mind English" :lol:

That's like a fish not minding water
Yes, it's an understatement and it's a banal thing to say. I'm guilty of redundancy in style. Much like the stupid and pleonastic title of the thread that asks if Neymar is an 'immature brat', as if there are any other brats. Even though that's a relatively lengthy thread not one person complained about this detail. The forum is rife with this type of stuff and yet people seldom complain and yet here we are. Thanks for being a stickler Robocop, we need more people like you around.
 

rcoobc

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Yes, it's an understatement and it's a banal thing to say. I'm guilty of redundancy in style. Much like the stupid and pleonastic title of the thread that asks if Neymar is an 'immature brat', as if there are any other brats. Even though that's a relatively lengthy thread not one person complained about this detail. The forum is rife with this type of stuff and yet people seldom complain and yet here we are. Thanks for being a stickler Robocop, we need more people like you around.
No problem moonwalker.

Seriously though I do apologise, I honestly wondered if you meant something other than what you had written. I.e. did you mean that you were NOT an anglophile but you don't mind English. Or you were anglophobic?

It falls foul of tom Scott's "hidden rules of conversation". Again just explaining why I thought that you might be trying to say something else


And if ever there was an example of language being complicated it is this. Language is difficult, there are unwritten rules of conversation that native speakers know but can't explain.

Therefore the assistant ref should be immediately reinstated, and on that bomb shell its time to end, until next week, good night everyone!
 

Fener1907

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I read in an article that Webo was called lots of time "black monkey" and "crow" when he played in Osmanispor in Turkish League.

He said ,"it happens,but we should not hype this,less attention,better."
Double standarts ..He evade to talk about this cause he got payed and you could have problems inside Turkey.
The only people who would have a problem in that case are the plonkers who said it.

Osmanlıspor - now repackaged as Ankaraspor - shouldn't even be a football club that exists. It's for cleaning money and making it disappear. Anyone who is a fan of that is automatically a questionable individual. If you want an idea of how relevant it actually is to anybody, look at it on a map of Ankara. Absolute bastard of a club.
 

Moonwalker

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No problem moonwalker.

Seriously though I do apologise, I honestly wondered if you meant something other than what you had written. I.e. did you mean that you were NOT an anglophile but you don't mind English. Or you were anglophobic?

It falls foul of tom Scott's "hidden rules of conversation". Again just explaining why I thought that you might be trying to say something else


And if ever there was an example of language being complicated it is this. Language is difficult, there are unwritten rules of conversation that native speakers know but can't explain.

Therefore the assistant ref should be immediately reinstated, and on that bomb shell its time to end, until next week, good night everyone!
Don't apologise for pointing out bad style or grammar. I genuinely appreciate people doing this.

What I meant to say is - there is a significant number of people (at least in my country) who would object to English even being lingua franca, because of the fact that we haven't had a democratic vote on this matter, and the language was spread through colonialism and soft power. Many of my university professors absolutely seethe at just a single mention of an Anglicism, and openly despise the language. Even though I'm not one of those people, even I as an Anglophile find absurd the notion that we should, even when speaking in our own language, all pay attention how some of the words might sound to an English speaking person. It's nonsense upon stilts. We don't need postcolonialism to say no to this type of tripe.
 

OL29

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I read in an article that Webo was called lots of time "black monkey" and "crow" when he played in Osmanispor in Turkish League.

He said ,"it happens,but we should not hype this,less attention,better."
Double standarts ..He evade to talk about this cause he got payed and you could have problems inside Turkey.
Or he feels more emboldened to call it out now given the fact that this year’s seem wide spread protests against racial discrimination?
 

JPRouve

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Or he feels more emboldened to call it out now given the fact that this year’s seem wide spread protests against racial discrimination?
I didn't want to respond initially but since you did. There is also the very obvious and common fact that generally people victim of discrimination won't react in public because they don't want to make a scene and be the center of attention or perceived as a victim, it doesn't mean that they aren't hurt. Other times they may react publicly.

Expecting people to have a robotic reaction to something that happens to them shows how much people have zero empathy.
 
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OL29

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I didn't want respond initially but since you did. There is also the very obvious and common fact that generally people victim of discrimination won't react in public because they don't want to make a scene and be the center of attention or perceived as a victim, it doesn't mean that they aren't hurt. Other times they may react publicly.

Expecting people to have a robotic reaction to something that happens to them shows how much people have zero empathy.
That’s a good point, and it extends beyond discrimination. It’s a similar rhetoric that gets aimed at victims of sexual abuse, trying dictate when or how a person responds in these situations shows a massive lack of understanding.
 

kouroux

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I didn't want to respond initially but since you did. There is also the very obvious and common fact that generally people victim of discrimination won't react in public because they don't want to make a scene and be the center of attention or perceived as a victim, it doesn't mean that they aren't hurt. Other times they may react publicly.

Expecting people to have a robotic reaction to something that happens to them shows how much people have zero empathy.
Great post
 

Synco

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I didn't want respond initially but since you did. There is also the very obvious and common fact that generally people victim of discrimination won't react in public because they don't want to make a scene and be the center of attention or perceived as a victim, it doesn't mean that they aren't hurt. Other times they may react publicly.

Expecting people to have a robotic reaction to something that happens to them shows how much people have zero empathy.
That’s a good point, and it extends beyond discrimination. It’s a similar rhetoric that gets aimed at victims of sexual abuse, trying dictate when or how a person responds in these situations shows a massive lack of understanding.
This is true, but I think it's often more than that. There's also an inclination to present a person as fundamentally dishonest and cynically 'playing the victim card' to advance some ideological agenda, or for personal gain.

I think that, psychologically, people who make strong complaints about racism, sexism, antisemitism, homophobia (especially of the casual, implicit, and easily deniable kind) are often perceived as irrationally aggressive and hostile, and justifications are needed to confirm that image. This can trigger these background checks for inconsistencies, past moral failures, etc., so that this person can be branded as a 'hypocrite' to put things back in order.
 

JPRouve

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This is true, but I think it's often more than that. There's also an inclination to present a person as fundamentally dishonest and cynically 'playing the victim card' to advance some ideological agenda, or for personal gain.

I think that, psychologically, people who make strong complaints about racism, sexism, antisemitism, homophobia (especially of the casual, implicit, and easily deniable kind) are often perceived as irrationally aggressive and hostile, and justifications are needed to confirm that image. This can trigger these background checks for inconsistencies, past moral failures, etc., so that this person can be branded as a 'hypocrite' to put things back in order.
What you say has some truth in a relatively calm context, when you are called a baboon or poo, you don't have that sort of elaborated thought. You generally have two very simple thoughts, attack or hide.
 

Synco

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What you say has some truth in a relatively calm context, when you are called a baboon or poo, you don't have that sort of elaborated thought. You generally have two very simple thoughts, attack or hide.
Didn't get that, sorry. Could you rephrase?
 

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I don't see the issue here. The official was simply committing to a universal realist interpretation of the forms. Demba Ba should step out of his nominalist echo chamber.

It's Platonic contentiousness gone mad.
/thread