Yep. And in Matic a player so immobile we have effectively 1.25 central midfielders. That are no one seems able to do the basics.
Ralf’s 4-2-2-2
- Thread starter Desert Eagle
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
That's basically his job though so sure.
I’m surprised he’s not using Lingard in this 4-2-2-2.
On paper this looks good,
Back 4
Mctomminy Fred
Pogba Lingard
Bruno Cavani
But on the pitch it would probably be a shambles.
On paper this looks good,
Back 4
Mctomminy Fred
Pogba Lingard
Bruno Cavani
But on the pitch it would probably be a shambles.
I highly doubt it, maybe we could see a better version of last night's dross. We know that the players are weak mentally but I think the manager is a bit confused and has his hands tied regarding who he can drop. Sancho and Greenwood aren't the No. 10s you play in a 4-2-2-2, they arent that strong on the ball and close to useless off it so it was suicide from the manager, we were lucky to only lose by one goal.
the 4222 is not the issue but RR using the wrong players for this system. McTominay apart from the Burnley game has been terrible. Matic slow and cannot move. None of our midfield players including Bruno can hold the ball. None apart from Pogba can pass. Neither Greenwood no Sancho can play in those positions. Maybe he should take a gamble and play either Dalot, Telles or Shaw in midfield instead of McTominay. Yes they have played as wingbacks but at least they are more quicker and better passers of the ball than McTominay. Or just play two upfront and 4 midfield players.
Christ, I hope we never this system again, what a load of shite!
If we are to salvage anything from this dire season, we need to get Bruno firing again and build a team/system around him, plus add more control in midfield. I would like to see a trio of VDB, Mctominay and Fred in midfield.
If we are to salvage anything from this dire season, we need to get Bruno firing again and build a team/system around him, plus add more control in midfield. I would like to see a trio of VDB, Mctominay and Fred in midfield.
Beggars belief really! We have arguably one of the best number 10's in Bruno Fernandes, yet Ralf benches him in favour of Cavani playing deeper!
Let’s be honest here, it’s a 442 with a low block and the keeper is being instructed to kick the ball long to Ronaldo. We’re playing exactly how Sean Dyche would want us to play.
We must be the only team in modem football playing with three pure strikers. Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool don’t even play with one pure striker most of the time. Greenwood can play on the right of a three man attack, similar to Salah, but he’s not a right winger.
I get that the squad is unbalanced but surely he can see this formation is completely unworkable with this team.
We must be the only team in modem football playing with three pure strikers. Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool don’t even play with one pure striker most of the time. Greenwood can play on the right of a three man attack, similar to Salah, but he’s not a right winger.
I get that the squad is unbalanced but surely he can see this formation is completely unworkable with this team.
In my opinion, asking Ronaldo/Cavani to do anything more than move into/around the box is pretty bad idea.
Asking both of them to do it at the same time is baffling.
On the other hand, because we have both Ronaldo and Cavani on the pitch from the start, we use Elanga to save our asses, which is even more funny.
Asking both of them to do it at the same time is baffling.
On the other hand, because we have both Ronaldo and Cavani on the pitch from the start, we use Elanga to save our asses, which is even more funny.
Indeed
On a side note given our RB situation is so dire, I wonder if Elanga at full back is given consideration.
The system is largely irrelevant at the moment, although he talks a good game RR clearly has no more idea what do with this bunch of average players than Ole did. There is clearly something fundamentally wrong at the heart of this club, which needs a very strong manager to dig out. SAF was a one off and no one since him has had the sheer force of personality required to motivate the players and stamp on any negative attitudes. He also wouldn’t have bought the likes of Maguire, Sancho, Fred etc. - he certainly wouldn’t have bought Pogba back either. We made a big mistake in not going for Conte when he was available, clearly a better manger than RR who has never won anything of significance …and now we are seeing why.
It's tactical suicide currently. The Wolves manager took the absolute piss out of him last night.
Exactly this. Thats what defies explanation. 4-2-2-2 firstly needs the high press which we cant/wont do and then we need players in the proper positions. I agree that the midfield is sht but its even harder for them if the 10's cant keep hold of the ball and its even harder for the attackers if the 10's cant thread balls through to them. It also makes it harder when your 9's arnt mobile and dont hold onto the ball. Every facet of a 4-2-2-2 is not be implemented.
DVB and Pogba look like nailed on ideal number 10's in this system and Lingard. Why are all 3 out the door? Martial looks a better 9 as well. Basically all the players that look suited to this system are not wanted or want out. We arnt even playing anything like a 4-2-2-2. Its a 4-4-2. If we played 4-2-2-2 properly we wouldn't get overrun in midfield because the 10's would make up the numbers and it would basically be 4 in midfield. Makes absolutely no sense. Ralf cant be that stupid - can he?
I can only assume Ralf feels he needs to pick certain players either because he is being told to or he thinks that if he benches them that that would cause so many problems in the dressing room its not worth it.
I think its shit. We get compressed in the middle so Greenwood has to try and dribble past 6 players from a no.10 position. Our players are too close together when we win the ball to play any effective passes or stretch the opposition. Ronaldo drifts wide and so does sancho and rashford because they are wingers not number 10’s.
Its quite simple - we arent creating any chances because its really fecking easy to play against, even for relegation dross like Norwich and Newcastle
Its quite simple - we arent creating any chances because its really fecking easy to play against, even for relegation dross like Norwich and Newcastle
Lingard was fecking abysmal in the only start he's had under Rangnick, he doesn't look interested. Between that his contract situation and his off field social media shenanigans I doubt we see much of him between now and May.
Have Bruno and Ronaldo ever played well together? When i saw them for Portugal i dodnt think they were suited to one anothers game and i still dont.
Our midfield is so poor that it needs 3 in there to strengthen it up. RR should just rotate more and generate competition for places in the XI. Alternative between Ronaldo and Cavani starting. Alternative between bruno and dvb being the most forward of the 3 man midfield and so on.
Said it before, what we are seeing on the pitch at present isnt a RR team. The relentless pressing, turnovers of the ball, high defensive line, rapid movement of the ball from defence to attack, none of the stuff you associate with a RR team is happening on the pitch. Its either we dont have the personal for it, the players arent listening or it will take time for the players to adapt to the system.
One thing is for sure, the centre midfield of Utd is a few years overdue for fixing. When Scholes retired, we had Carrick, albeit a different type of midfielder but someone who could control the tempo of the game. Since Carrick retired we have no one to control that midfield we definitely need a jorginho (chelsea) type of deep lying play maker, but also a destroyer with legs ala ndidi (Leicester) alongside said playmaker.
Our midfield is so poor that it needs 3 in there to strengthen it up. RR should just rotate more and generate competition for places in the XI. Alternative between Ronaldo and Cavani starting. Alternative between bruno and dvb being the most forward of the 3 man midfield and so on.
Said it before, what we are seeing on the pitch at present isnt a RR team. The relentless pressing, turnovers of the ball, high defensive line, rapid movement of the ball from defence to attack, none of the stuff you associate with a RR team is happening on the pitch. Its either we dont have the personal for it, the players arent listening or it will take time for the players to adapt to the system.
One thing is for sure, the centre midfield of Utd is a few years overdue for fixing. When Scholes retired, we had Carrick, albeit a different type of midfielder but someone who could control the tempo of the game. Since Carrick retired we have no one to control that midfield we definitely need a jorginho (chelsea) type of deep lying play maker, but also a destroyer with legs ala ndidi (Leicester) alongside said playmaker.
Quick, kill it with fire!
I think the telling thing is this, what other top teams or teams challenging for titles in any of the top 3, 4 or 5 leagues plays only 2 cms in midfield with only 4 at the back?
Maybe only atletico? although they don't really play with 2 out and out strikers up top. Even internationally when you look at france with pogba/kante, they still effectively play a three with one of the wingers pretty much being an auxiliary cm.
Top teams have to control games, 442, 4222, 41212, does not give a team the control they need. Regardless of the quality of your players.
Maybe only atletico? although they don't really play with 2 out and out strikers up top. Even internationally when you look at france with pogba/kante, they still effectively play a three with one of the wingers pretty much being an auxiliary cm.
Top teams have to control games, 442, 4222, 41212, does not give a team the control they need. Regardless of the quality of your players.
It's not a 4-4-2. For that to be the case, the two wide midfielders would need to be wide and in the middle third. Neither Sancho nor Greenwood were.
Agree with you about Martial too. Yes he has asked for a move but the main reason is because he does not get to play. He is the only one who can hold the ball in our squad. If RR wants to play Ronaldo or Cavani, then play Martial as the second striker. Play DVB and Bruno behind them. I do agree that he has no one decent to play as the two holding midfield players. There is an advantage in playing Martial as he is not going to go for the 6 yard box and he is going to hang about outside.
I hope he stays until the end of the season at least. We have bought players very badly. No need to buy Sancho as we needed a DM much above anything else. We bought DVB for God knows why?
RR should rotate the top 2. Ronaldo, Cavani, Greenwood, Martial and Sancho in no particular order.
"the space is on the outside" Bruno Lage picks apart Man Utd's tactics in their loss to Wolves.
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the tactics yesterday and against Burnley were woeful
Matic and McT in midfield will never work and makes no sense
Ronaldo and Cavani up front is horrible and makes no sense
It leaves us with no passing options with those two in midfield and those two up front
Look I know it's the thing on this forum to blame the players now (whereas a month ago it was all Ole's fault), but what do you expect them to do in that system honestly?
It's no wonder they look deflated
Matic and McT in midfield will never work and makes no sense
Ronaldo and Cavani up front is horrible and makes no sense
It leaves us with no passing options with those two in midfield and those two up front
Look I know it's the thing on this forum to blame the players now (whereas a month ago it was all Ole's fault), but what do you expect them to do in that system honestly?
It's no wonder they look deflated
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RR highlighted this himself .
Its more 424 as the wingers are so far up the pitch.
Ralf is doing the same thing all the other managers before him did and failed with and that was putting square pegs in round holes. Why is this club so bad at sign a manager in their prime that swill drop players that comprise the system and set up that they want to use.
Literally every other team in world football would use Bruno as the most attacking of a midfield 3. Give him the license to get forward but with instruction to help out the other two midfielders.
Every opposition manager will look at us playing 4222 or this weird dysfunctional 4222/424 we played last night and rightly conclude that you only need to attack us with width. It's not rocket science, there's a reason very few teams use this formation. I'm sure given a year or two and a load of signings it could eventually work. But ralf doesn't have that long.
This is all fine, but we can't expect RR to have implemented his ideas in 10 training sessions. Lage talks about players understanding what to do in each moment, how can we possibly have gotten to this stage already? It's impossible
There are no wingers in a 4222. Yes, the system (like quite a few others these days) require Fullbacks to provide width in attack and defense. Thats why you need to have these energetic types on that position and why switching to wingbacks is a thing to circumvent certain issues. We don't really have that fullbacks hence the level of width. It has nothing to do with the formation we play, when we played 4231, the "so called wingers" where strikers just as well, trying to drift inside. That is more or less exactly the same in the 4222.
The issue, as somebody said already, is the dissection between attack, midfield and defense. It seems like there is an understanding that every "department" is working for itself. That is the issue and has been under Ole just as well. Just look at Wolves yesterday, they bossed the midfield even though they had Moutinho and Neves there. Hardly energetic but they have been supported admirably by their wingbacks and offensive players. That is where we have to get.
Your post is absolutely spot on. The bolded part is absolutely heartbreaking. Manchester United have to get where Wolves are right now. Just shows how mismanaged this team has been for so long.
Based on understat, Wolves created an xG of 0.84 so hardly have we been under the cosh. You are right, opposition will always try to exploit imbalances based on formations. But there is no perfect one that has no downsides. I agree, RR should have changed our setup yesterday when he saw that our numerical advantage in defense did us no favour at all because Wolves were playing really well as a team supporting each other.
Proofs in the pudding. At the moment the formation doesn't look ideal. Puts too much emphasis on the full backs who are inconsistent and is not getting enough out of our front players. Perhaps a shift to a back five and a three in the middle of Bruno pogba and matic. I would expect a different starting formation against Villa in the cup.
Of course not but some are less perfect than others and there's a reason very few teams, especially top teams use 4222.
All we have is forwards so I understand why Ole and now Ralf continue to try and rely on a system that lets us field the most attacking players, but it's so god dam awful. Will he give it up? I don't know.
I understand what you mean but I don't really get it. A - City employed that tactic only a few years ago when D. Silva was still there. B - what we have seen yesterday, could have easily been a game from last season, a year ago, 6 weeks ago. The way Ole set us up, 4231, Bruno was often dragged to striker positions making him more a striker than an actual midfielder. The "wingers" were rarely staying wide, Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho, Pogba whoever played there was dragged inside. So if you have a midfielder who plays like a striker and two winger, who play like outside forwards, what is so entirely different to 4222? I'll give you that Rashford and Greenwood are even more unsuited to that position than to the outside forwards in a 4231 but that isn't why we looked so bad yesterday. And it isn't why we looked so bad against Newcastle too.
Maybe I just didn't get your point, why do you think, that the formation is such a key thing in the struggles these days?
Not just the formation in itself as yeah it changes during the game like any other and as you say it isn't a million mils away from other formations.
But on top of the formation change we are playing players out of position in my opinion. Sancho/Bruno operating from the left of the two no10. Rashford operating from the right as a no9 and then also as a no10. Ronaldo running the left channel of the two strikers when at his age he probably doesn't have the legs. Playing Ronaldo and Cavani with Cavani often being the one to drop deeper. I could go on but we've certainly had some teething problems with Ralf getting to know this squad, I haven't given up yet and hope we turn it round. But playing players in more familiar areas and/or switching to 4231/433 would probably speed the process of getting us back into some sort of rhythm/form as a team.
I really think you could see Ragnick deploy a 3421 (same as Wolves used to pick us apart)
If we have all our CBs back fit it might be likely to give more defensive stability.
Sancho, fernandez, donny, pogba, rashford, Greenwood could all fight it out for the behind the CF.
If we have all our CBs back fit it might be likely to give more defensive stability.
Sancho, fernandez, donny, pogba, rashford, Greenwood could all fight it out for the behind the CF.
4-4-2 or 4-2-2-2 is so outdated
Any good manager just sticks 3 - midfielders against us and they control the game
It’s the this Manager has not seen us play for the last year or so
I have no faith in him or his system whatsoever
Any good manager just sticks 3 - midfielders against us and they control the game
It’s the this Manager has not seen us play for the last year or so
I have no faith in him or his system whatsoever
Correct. I’m fed up reading any sort of justification of playing this mythical 4-2-2-2. The only way we can play any sort of 2 in central midfield is to buy 2 new central midfielders and even then with the lack of mobility they would struggle.
Correct. I’m genuinely at a bit of a loss as to what some folk think they’re watching. Burnley and Wolves was nothing other than a simple 442 with Greenwood and Sancho in front of the fullbacks and Cavani dropping a little deeper than Ronaldo out of possession.
This isn’t working at all, for what it’s worth, but what do you expect with two ancient strikers and a relegation standard midfield?