Precisely this but hey armchair experts know everything.
Ralf Rangnick | ex-interim manager | does anyone rate him?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Go on then. Take me on the journey. As Klopp's style seemed very evident from early.
For all we know? It's not for all we know.. he's not on there level which is what everyone knows. I don't get your Ole point, we literally played exactly the same as under Ole, What is there to magnify. I'm not taking it back because it's Ralph. I seen what I seen.
It's weird because it wasn't the comparison. I said Nagelsmann is managing Bayern right now which is something Ralph couldn't achieve within his managerial career. Sometimes it's like that but I'm not giving Ralph credit for Nagelsmann's own personal achievement's. He didn't get him to Bayern. He might of played some part in his career but no-ones thanking LVG for giving us Pep are they now.
For the rebuilding or reforming whatever, could have hired a much better person for that? You know how City built theirs up?
And those who have been saying that should remember that the club did NOT have initial intention of hiring me in that consultant role (who know what it is exactly at this point).
Not many (or anyone at all?) sporting director or whatever in other currently successful clubs were doing an interim manager for 6 month and struggling to figure out what players they should buy and get rid. It is not that hard or required to figure out about the squad IF you are good at your role anyway.
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And who exactly is this 'someone else' ? Murtough has already done his homework and has acknowledged RRs work back many times in the past. He was always our first preference as the interim . Yes, the consultant role came as a top up, but I would like to take it in a positive way.
Or think why did Chelsea approach RR last year.
I already did -read my posts. The style Rangnick is trying to implement is quite easily visible in the early periods of some recent matches with the higher press and triggers when they are passing to fullbacks. The issue Rangnick has that Klopp didn't is that 1) fixtures coming in more thick and fast, 2) he has bigger egos to deal with, 3) his preparation was interrupted badly with16 days of covid circuit break and 4) he cant get any of his first choice staff unlike Klopp.
Klopp even said Rangnick will bring organisation and structure to the team but we wont see it for a while because its near impossible to implement quickly when games are coming so quickly. But hey what does Klopp's views, Rangnick's views, Naglesmann's endorsements and other facets matter to you - you see a game you don't like and just boil it down to "Ole tactics"
Again, a bit presumptuous and because he's accepted a big job until now. He rejected Chelsea last year and prefers to orchestrate from the top.
You fail to grasp any understanding about Rangnick - this is clear. If your view is he's always wanted to be a manager throughout his career and nothing else then there's your problem right there. He's more than that and he's achieved more on his CV by way of overhauling clubs and making them overperform from both a DoF and managerial role. Whether or not Bayern wanted him is immaterial. Top clubs have generally been interested in him and for good reason. But hey, Ole tactics or something.
That all sounds very intelligent and long winded. However what I do know is every time we hire someone we always give a similar spiel and how much time it requires to get players up to scratch and remove X's deadwood.
At the end of the day, What are we modernising? Playing 4222? Which successful club plays that currently?
Asses what? He picks exactly the same team as the other regime whilst also having a knack of playing players out of position. We lambarded mates rates FC. But now we are all of a sudden happy because we have a bunch of NY Red Bull coaches modernising our style to be up their with City and Co. Brilliant.
We aren't Red Bull, we are already a huge Juggernaurt of a club and we don't need building from scratch. We aren't in Ligue 1. We literally just need to be taken from 3rd-6th to 1-3rd. There's many different ways this can take place, but what it doesn't need is some massive masterplan all you guys seem to think.
I am not expert at finding those. Otherwise, you think I would be on red Caf posting?
The point I am making is that if you want to reform, you hire a better person or people than someone who built up red bull clubs (
if that standard is what we are looking for) years ago and now working at a Russian club. It is like targeting players. Why Fabinho when we can have Fred or something similar to it. City just got people who were doing great at another already established great club ( Not fecking red bulls).How can you twist this around that this guy is here for long term and the club trusts in him when the initial intention was only for 6 months? Consultant role mostly likes mean NOTHING and little authority to the actual squad building when there are technical, sporting director and team manager in the structure. Wtf is consultant role and what clubs have them to make them successfully?
So what if Chelsea approached him? No other team would contact as many as coaches Chelsea have been in past 2 decades. It means feck all special at this point. He was one of the options and they got a better coach at the end. Which we should do more.
If anything, the club was desperate to hire someone in the middle of the season where they fecked up with the timing of sacking Ole and gave him so called consultant role to make him leave his job. Funny how his Russian club didn't let his assistant leave and didn't even ask for money for him to leave. Should tell you something.
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" A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step"
Ralf has taken maybe one or two steps that is all. We have a long way to go yet, he may have to take few short cuts with some aspects e.g.making use of those players who want to learn/stay but who are struggling to change the habits they have picked up, including sulking around on and off the pitch, turning 'a blind eye' and not passing to players who are in better positions, or who the don't like/rate; take out those who don't have the personal discipline to succeed including (if necessary) the younger ones, whose careers at OT are going nowhere.
Anyone who has watched United over the last 7/8 years knows he has a mountain to climb before he can entertain any hope of arriving at his final system of play. We all need a dose of realism now.
Ralf has taken maybe one or two steps that is all. We have a long way to go yet, he may have to take few short cuts with some aspects e.g.making use of those players who want to learn/stay but who are struggling to change the habits they have picked up, including sulking around on and off the pitch, turning 'a blind eye' and not passing to players who are in better positions, or who the don't like/rate; take out those who don't have the personal discipline to succeed including (if necessary) the younger ones, whose careers at OT are going nowhere.
Anyone who has watched United over the last 7/8 years knows he has a mountain to climb before he can entertain any hope of arriving at his final system of play. We all need a dose of realism now.
If United is a restaurant, Ralf is serving up serious slop. His time as manager will be a complete disaster. I hope I’m wrong, but we can all see it.
I'm so confused why people don't get this yet, it was broadcast by the club and it's what Ragnick is renowned for. There's been a lot of waffle on this forum about cultural resets and rebuilds but this is probably the first time it is actually going to happen. Ragnick is going to get hammered for weeks yet about his tactics and it's because change is difficult, meaningful change at least and he's not an elite coach. Why are we making out he was supposed to be one.
I've seen many on here already push their panic buttons and say we should go back to counter attacking. As if we haven't had 5.5 years of the most expensive counter attacking squad ever assembled to learn that doesn't work.
Good post.
Although I hate watching us the way we are playing and our league position, I have this optimistic side of things.
Would it be better if Ralf done an Ole and had a bounce, papered over all the cracks, got top 4 and we got a new manager next season? No, because the same problems will appear with a new manager.
With Ralf's methods and the way he is going about things, MArtial, you want out, go on son, find a club. Rather than playing him for a few games, thinking he will be a key player?
I wanted Ralf to come in and identify who is worth keeping and who is not worth it. I think this is giving him a real insight to players ability and mental ability.
It might be good in the long run because Ralf isnt going away, he will be here making decisions on contracts, him managing the team gives him great insight of what needs to be done come the summer.
This
Yes they threw a shit ton of oil money on trying to get Guardiola and going so far as hiring Barcelona staff like Begiristain and Soriano. I don’t think any established big club would move heaven and earth to the extent that City did to accommodate the guys responsible for when Barcelona were really good. I don’t think the likes of Bayern or Juve would radically change their football structure like that but since City is an oil country play thing with their fans starved of success then why the feck not.
They struck gold with Guardiola and getting those guys in too, but that approach in itself may be a weak point for City… because what happens after Guardiola leaves? Do Begiristain and Soriano leave too? The likes of Guardiola and Ferguson don’t come around often. The past 10 years at City has either been thinking about Guardiola in charge or having him in charge… even when they hired Pellegrini, City were flirting with Guardiola. Do they just go back to being some rich club that doesn’t know what it wants to do with itself like 1990s Inter Milan or current Man Utd?
You are missing the point though. We have to start somewhere. Our first choice was ETH or Poch ,both excels at modern football. Both of them won't come mid season and so we had to go with someone who knew what he is doing. He will be here for 6 months, analyze what's wrong and help us achieve what we want to become in next few years. It wasn't like there was a Pep or Klopp ready to take over mid season.I am not expert at finding those. Otherwise, you think I would be on red Caf posting?
The point I am making is that if you want to reform, you hire a better person or people than someone who built up red bull clubs (
How can you twist this around that this guy is here for long term and the club trusts in him when the initial intention was only for 6 months? Consultant role mostly likes mean NOTHING and little authority to the actual squad building when there is technical, sporting director and team manager. Wtf is consultant role and what clubs have them to make them successfully?
So what if Chelsea approached him? No other team than Chelsea would contact as many as coaches they have been in past 2 decades. It means feck all special at this point. He was one of the options and they got a better coach at the end. Which we should do more like them.
If anything the club was desperate to hire this guy and give him so called consultant role to make him leave his job. Funny his Russian club retained his assistant and didn't even ask for money for him to leave. Should tell you something.
I am ignoring the Russian club reference because that's not worth responding to. We both know it's just a lazy baseless assumption. The Chelsea reference was to show that he is well regarded in the footballing world.
Sounds like irrelevant excuses for someone not doing a good job.I already did -read my posts. The style Rangnick is trying to implement is quite easily visible in the early periods of some recent matches with the higher press and triggers when they are passing to fullbacks. The issue Rangnick has that Klopp didn't is that 1) fixtures coming in more thick and fast, 2) he has bigger egos to deal with, 3) his preparation was interrupted badly with16 days of covid circuit break and 4) he cant get any of his first choice staff unlike Klopp.
Klopp even said Rangnick will bring organisation and structure to the team but we wont see it for a while because its near impossible to implement quickly when games are coming so quickly. But hey what does Klopp's views, Rangnick's views, Naglesmann's endorsements and other facets matter to you - you see a game you don't like and just boil it down to "Ole tactics"
Wish he did go Chelsea, they wouldn't be were they are now.
I have no view of him.. Sounds like a good bloke and he knows his football. But we have an ambition here to be the best in England again, we need to hire the best. It's that simple.... there are a lot of well run clubs finishing 8th and 16th in the league. There's also alot of bad run clubs that come 1st and 2nd every year.
The importance has never really had a consistent correlation but Top class managers tend to deliver what they are paid to do.
I agree we could have just hired a top coach and backed him but then, in reality, it's between Poch and ETH who are (maybe) available and, let's be honest, both are a bit of a gamble. We have hired some bad managerial appointments, really really bad when you think in hindsight it was Moyes, a semi retired LVG, broken Jose and Ole with no elite experience but that is the reality we face. I'd go as far as to say you could quite easily hire a 'better' manager than any of those 4 at the times we had them by plucking any number of managers out of the PL but it's such a long shot I am ok with this different approach assuming the right type of candidate is found in the summer.
It is an example. As I said it is like targeting players.
You go for the best you can. And unless you think RR is the best for the job, then fair enough. But he is not even hired to be Sporting director or whatever. His role will be very minimized after 6 months.
Point is some of you guys are hyping this guy too much and the club probably didn't have half of your faith in him rightly or wrongly.
Txiki is going to leave I think given the change in the Barca leadership. I wouldn't be surprised if all the Barca old boys go back at some point. But I also think they're an extremely well run club, so they'll have proper succession planning / grooming in place and won't have nearly the same issues as we do.
Yeah don't get me wrong we are where we are. But It really just comes down to get a top class manager. Both you have mentioned I feel are and yes they come with a risk. However this period we are in now does nothing to help us in the future which is why most people couldn't understand why we was hiring an interim to replace the interim. But I really hope it works and by work I mean get top 4.
I wouldn’t look into the Lokomotiv Moscow stint much if people are going to use that as a stick to beat Ralf with. He was barely there 6 months. They probably offered him a shit ton of money to do it and he probably had his eye on bigger things. Let’s not forget Ralf was talking with Chelsea and AC Milan last year.
And I feel that the Red Bull stuff he did is pretty impressive and taking on Utd is a logical next step. Under Ralf, both Leipzig and Salzburg are now regular Champions League teams and they always seem to have at least one player who is highly rated and all the major teams are keeping tabs on them.
And I feel that the Red Bull stuff he did is pretty impressive and taking on Utd is a logical next step. Under Ralf, both Leipzig and Salzburg are now regular Champions League teams and they always seem to have at least one player who is highly rated and all the major teams are keeping tabs on them.
Are you going to hire some manager from a Russian club? That's all I will ask.
I am not missing any point. You are. As I said the club even didn't think of him as a starting point for a long term project or whatever.
And to say he has to coach 6 months to see which players need to be get rid is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. No person in charge for that kind of thing IF they are good needs that.
Hiring someone to steady for 6 months is understandable. But don't make it look like it is a long term project and 3d chess move whenever people point out that this guy does not seem to be up even for 6 months. Usually not many successful managers take the involvement of a sporting director at a club kindly let alone someone called consultant. That role has no authority at all.
LVG was well regarded too and still is.
Completely agree.
The thing is, as much as it hurts to say so, the Berties actually have a plan. Abu Dhabi Group, or whatever its actually called, they get what's needed to achieve their goals. You don't see Khaldoon making himself Executive Chair and playing Football Manager with Sheikh Mansour's money. The people who own City understand that, to be successful, they need a qualified leadership team. So, even after Txiki and Soriano go, they will go out and hire the best CEO and best Sporting Director they can. They won't just give it to a guy who helped them on a deal and his mates from university.
Incredible to see how they do business compared to the Glazers.
Yeah but why didn't they hire him? Why didn't any other big club hire him after his red bull stuff which was ages ago.
And Chelsea talks to many many coaches and
at AC Milan nowadays. Actually not really, we are in a very similar situation like them.I am not necessarily beating him down for what he can or can't as he just did not appoint himself to be here. I just think the club messed up with the way they went on about. And of course people making things up like he was intended to be here for long term because the club believe in him or want to take a very radical route from CEO. We still don't or can't even to get the best people in the footballing world and this appointment along with others recently still proved that somehow.
But as always there is next season.
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How will that scenario come about, we were already screwed after we kept Ole for far too long and the problems Rangnick has encountered were always going to be encountered by anyone who would have come in and tried to jolt these players out of their comfort zone.
Everything that's happened since he came in was already happening; players were too lazy, they were making too many unforced errors in games, we lacked balance and results weren't coming. Some of you seem to be forgetting that we had to sack a manager mid season, a fortnight too late and after turning down the services of a proven winner. We were already mired in disaster and it's disingenuous to try and lay it all on Rangnick or the decision to appoint him.
They play not too dissimilarly to how Ralf wants to play. They even just absolutely bossed Tottenham playing 4-2-2-2. They have very very very good wingbacks. They then got injured and for about a two months had a serious drop in form.
Also name the poorly run clubs that come 1st and 2nd every year?
He's also the bloody interim, why are you acting like we have just hitched our horse to this wagon, when we very much have him in place to see us out until the end of the season.
The reason we have brought him in is to set us up to play a pressing style of football next season. Under Carrick we would have just continued playing Oleball and maybe continued being a bit more defensively solid. But what is hugely apparent after these first few games is our players don't know how to press as a unit. Poch and ETH have different styles of play but both are underpinned by pressing. Rangick has 6 months to prepare our players for the next manager. Going from Ole to Carrick to ETH would have seen probably 6 months of us trying to learn pressing under ETH at the beginning of next season. Ole - Carrick - Rangnick - ETH will at least give us some foundation and hopefully expedite the period of transistion.
I find the micro analysis of RR a bit strange. He's an interim. No more, no less. He was never going to be the best in the business. His record says that he's not in that class. But he was probably the best available that would be willing to sign up to a 6 month assignment. That's what we needed and that's what we've got. I'm not expecting miracles from him, I'm not expecting us to suddenly play elite football that the top sides are playing, but I expect him to reach his objective which is probably CL football.
The consultancy is neither here nor there at the moment, his job is simply hold the fort. He may not even be as crucial as people think. He's a future consultant not a director of football. I'm sure he'll play a role but there's nothing to say he's going to be the man single handedly tasked with restructuring the club. I think Murtough and Fletcher and the new CEO will be far more important than a consultant. The fact he's a consultant already suggests they'll use them as and when they require, not as a foundation. Why would you have a man as consultant to play a massive role in the future direction of the club - a man that important would be employed and on a massive pay packet, not disposable.
RR is probably just a moment in time. I have optimism he can do the job, the results are okay even if the performances are not. The next managerial appointment is the one that really matters.
The consultancy is neither here nor there at the moment, his job is simply hold the fort. He may not even be as crucial as people think. He's a future consultant not a director of football. I'm sure he'll play a role but there's nothing to say he's going to be the man single handedly tasked with restructuring the club. I think Murtough and Fletcher and the new CEO will be far more important than a consultant. The fact he's a consultant already suggests they'll use them as and when they require, not as a foundation. Why would you have a man as consultant to play a massive role in the future direction of the club - a man that important would be employed and on a massive pay packet, not disposable.
RR is probably just a moment in time. I have optimism he can do the job, the results are okay even if the performances are not. The next managerial appointment is the one that really matters.
Because to me it looks as though RR is a world class director of football, but a pretty average manager.
I think he will have a major impact in restructuring the club itself, but his influence on the performance of the football played on the field will be minimal.
Agree with this.
As much as I love Ole he'd overseen a once in a century home smashing against our worst rivals AND getting a hiding at Watford.
We've been on the way down for months. Increasingly it looks like our excuse making, idle players will stop Rangnick achieving everything. However, lets not kid ourselves that under a different manager we'd be doing so much better.
Rangnick might not be able to stop the rot but he sure as s-t didn't cause it. This dressing room is toxic and will revolt against any coach who tries to get them to do stuff they don't want.
The only silver lining on the horizon is that so many of these bluffers are out of contract over the next year or so. That means, with any luck, we'll be able to rip it up and start over. Hopefully the Board won't waste the chance by making stupid decisions again. Although, lets be honest, none of us will be that surprised if we're saying very similar things a year from now under a new manager. As X player kicks his heels on hundreds of thousands a week, doing the sum total of nothing while his 'camp' whines to the media about the coach. We're stuck firmly in a cycle now.
I believe he turned both of them down, rather than they turned him down.
Complete disaster yet he has lost only 1 game, had 3 clean sheets in 7 games yet Ole who is "less" disaster had 1 clean sheet in 25 games.
We were number last in all metrics of football from tackles, pressing, winning balls high up, conceding goals, scoring from set piece, turnovers etc before Rlf came in, now all our problems are his fault?
Ralf mistake is he wants to have genuine change through genuine verified approach which can stay put for many years not just newmanager bounce, and this takes times, sacrifice and humility to accept the real situation.
Exactly this. I don’t understand how people are missing this. If most of this forum were in charge of footballing decisions we’d be liquidated within a day.
And who is that and where the feck were we getting the best possible person mid season? He is a good coach, not a great one, and knows a thing or two about building clubs who was also willing to come on short notice to do a dual role; stabilize results which is any interim manager's remit and help us draft away out of this mess over the next two years.
Chelsea approached Ralf for a interim job, HE turned it down.
Reports say, he did not want to manage for 6 months, he wanted a project. United offered 2 year consultancy which persuaded him.
I mean he probably sees this as an opportunity. The next manager to win us the league will go down in history, which is why we can attract big names.
Exactly. They didn't seem to be convinced of him for long term. By all means United didn't at first either.
Not really, they all have a structure in place and don't need someone to do the role that is already occupied.
United were already making changes, Ed leaving.
Murtough who is DoF spent time at the Red Bull training ground and was impressed with what Rangnick had done.
Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus, PSG.
I know he’s an interim which is why I expect Interim things. He’s not going to be here to work the press and we can clearly see we have players who don’t want to do it. But we knew that when Ole decided to build this athletic team working harder and running more than the opposition. That is this team.
It’s been built poor and needs a fresh batch of players who are willing to adopt a system.
All this we know. But we hired a interim. My expectations are fine are some of yours?
Conte was available we decided against it. We also didn’t press to get Poch or ETH. So we are here.
Take away the glitz, glamor and the accompanying toxicity that accompanies a big club like ours Ralf Rangnick has never failed in football as a manager relative to resources he has been given. Many a manager has got a big break to the big time on the back of what he achieved with Shalke, for example, so what makes you think he is an average manager? His five week stint at a declining club that has indulged loafers, snakes and jokers in its dressing room for eight years?
Has Moyes failed at his level?
Of course I know all the stories.
My point is that RR would not be good enough for coaching the team for 6 months and he would not be good enough to restructure here due to having a consultant role which will have no authority at all. Which contradicted with some people in CAF's opinion that he was hired to influence long term. With the people in top (ED leaving or not) at United, he won't and he is probably not even the best person or at position to do that.
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