I’d say Greenwood is slightly overrated here. He’s not a generational talent...
Rank the English talent
- Thread starter Solius
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Meh. Your own fans don't see much future for him looking at some of the posting on here!
Fans are fickle.
United fans were comparing Abraham favorably against Rashford a few months ago but now are claiming he would walk into our team even though his competition would be Pulisic.
I can't wait for all the people saying stuff like this to be eating humble pie in a year's time.
I think they were comparing Rashford and Abraham at the start of the season when Tammy had a purple patch. I think it's safe to say Rashford had the better season prior to his back fracture.
Based on him not playing football for 6+ months I'd say Pulisic would be starting ahead. Especially in this form.
It is not an exact science to have metrics. Mostly it is watching, reading and seeing what other people say.
For example, in top 10 players of all time, I think that you might have as unanimous choices: Pele, Messi, C. Ronaldo, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Beckenbauer. No keeper, one defender, the others are all attackers (No. 10 are attackers IMO). If you look at the other players who might make the list, you see: Puskas, Eusebio, Best, Charlton, Garrincha, L. Ronaldo, Platini, Zidane. Again, more or less the same story.
Would you take Messi or Ter Stegen? Would you take Ronaldo or Oblak? Do you think that the new kids want to become the new Messi, or the new Alisson? Will De Gea shirt outsell Bruno's one? Why the most expensive keeper of all time is just on the (joined) seventeenth position? And in top 50, there is just another one keeper? Why only one keeper has even won the Ballon D'Or?
It ain't a conspiracy, just that attackers are much more valuable than goalkeepers.
But that kind of backs up my point, fans kneejerk based on form. Mount is being widely praised right now after being ridiculed at Christmas. Few explosive games and all of a sudden CHO will be flavour of the month again.
why the hell Foden above Jaden?
During most seasons they were voted best player in the world after Ronaldo or Messi. But I guess generational talents should be the rarest of the rare
Why he's been World class since he was 19 that seems generational to me. If he keeps up this level he will be one of the best of all time.
I'm not sure CHO has really delivered all that much though since his contract? Certainly not set the world alight.
He had an excellent month after returning and January before another injury, was in a rut inbetween though.
He's a good talent no doubt but seems to have stagnated. Don't see how bringing in lots of new forwards will really help him tbh.
Fair enough to disagree. I mean, will he be as good as Cafu? Is Cafu a generational talent? If the answer to either of these is No, then he won't.
For what is worth, I think that the answer to those two questions is No. I mean, how ridiculous it is gonna be 'Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, Best, Ronaldo, Beckenbauer, TAA' in the same sentence.
Don't get me wrong, I rate him very high. He's the best right-back in the world.
How do you come to that conclusion? And even if it's correct, that statement is helped massively by hindsight, because we already know what Charlton achieved as a player. I would differentiate between "generational talent" and "generational player". Charlton managed to make the most of his talent, while players like Gascoigne and Rooney did not, but I'd find it hard to argue that Rooney in particular wasn't seen a generational talent in his teens. To prove it: No-one can say that Cristiano Ronaldo isn't a generational footballing talent given what he's accomplished in the game, but Rooney was rated higher by many back in 2003-2005. Would anyone have been wrong in calling Rooney a generational talent back then? Not in my mind. Did Rooney go on to become a generational player? Again, not in my mind. But the talent was there.
Now, it's likely that none of the players in the OP will even get close to Ronaldo in footballing terms, but at the same time you could argue that both Sancho and Greenwood at this moment in time are ahead of where Ronaldo was at their ages. For all his fearlessness, trickery and pace, Ronaldo was a much less mature and polished footballer when he started playing for us at 18 than Greenwood is now, and also much less effective in front of goal. Ronaldo also didn't start putting up world class numbers until the age of 21-22, while Sancho at 20 has been doing it for two seasons already. That doesn't necessarily mean their ceilings are higher, no matter how much work they put in, but at least there's some room to give them the benefit of the doubt. When it's all said and done, one of those English youngsters might be seen as one of the greatest of all time. It's up to them to make the most of it.
I mean, who could honestly say they saw that career coming after Ronaldo's first season with us?
I don't disagree with either of this, tbf. Greenwood and Sancho might well become the best players of their generation. Just that it is incredibly unlikely for it to happen, same as it is for Joao Felix and the regens that come to existence every year. As you said, Rooney was as dead-cert as someone can be, and it did not happen. Same for Neymar. Probably it is gonna happen for Mbappe too.
For what is worth, I rated Ronaldo higher than Rooney, but that was mostly cause I liked him more. Objectively speaking, Rooney looked the better player despite being a few months younger. And yep, I agree that anyone saw Ronaldo becoming a GOAT-challenger.
Do you think that there was an English generational talent since Charlton?
For what is worth, I think that players are using this term very differently. For me, here are the generational talents:
Brazil: Pele, Garrincha, Ronaldo, maybe Zico, maybe Ronaldinho
Argentina: Di Stefano, Maradona, Messi
England: Matthews, Charlton
France: Platini, Zidane
Holland: Cruyff, maybe Van Basten
Germany: Beckenbauer, maybe Rummenige, maybe Muller
Spain: maybe Xavi
Portugal: Eusebio, Ronaldo
Hungary: Puskas
N. Ireland: Best
Italy: Meazza, maybe Baresi, maybe Maldini, maybe Baggio
Fair to say that it is very unlikely that any of Sancho, Foden, Greenwood or TAA will end in this list. In fact, very likely, neither of them will.
Brazil: Pele, Garrincha, Ronaldo, maybe Zico, maybe Ronaldinho
Argentina: Di Stefano, Maradona, Messi
England: Matthews, Charlton
France: Platini, Zidane
Holland: Cruyff, maybe Van Basten
Germany: Beckenbauer, maybe Rummenige, maybe Muller
Spain: maybe Xavi
Portugal: Eusebio, Ronaldo
Hungary: Puskas
N. Ireland: Best
Italy: Meazza, maybe Baresi, maybe Maldini, maybe Baggio
Fair to say that it is very unlikely that any of Sancho, Foden, Greenwood or TAA will end in this list. In fact, very likely, neither of them will.
Well yes if he continues he will be atleast as good as Cafu. If he goes on as long as maldini he will be of that level absolutely he's been World class for a couple years and won huge major honours. If he continues he will be up there
It is fair to say. ‘Generational talent’ is just a hyperbolic social media buzz phrase. It’s almost impossible to predict at the start of a career anyway. Even someone like Ronaldinho who looked nailed on after his second Ballon D’Or at 25 completely fell off.
Foden is not a generational talent. Only generational talent for from that list is Greenwood.
I don't see it. In fact, I think it is far more likely that he won't end the best RB of this decade, rather than ending the best RB of all time.
It is nothing against him, just basic probability. If there are 10 other RBs who have only 10% chance each to end better than him, the chances of him ending better than all of them is just roughly 1/3. It is for this reason that I think there is a very realistic chance that Mbappe won't end the best player of this decade despite that it looks that he is far ahead the pack.
Agree. It looks that it has simply replaced 'world-class' aka very good player, while world-class is still used for more or less the same meaning. While, I think that originally was meant to be for GOAT-potential.
Criminally underrating Rooney there.
Generational talent is just Mbappe. You are all overrating english players here. Sancho, TAA, Greenwood and maybe Rashford and Foden will be world class thought.
Left to right matters
In terms of my list, I would have straight up put Mbappe in generational. I thought the categories were too limiting as there is a difference between ceiling, how they're currently performing, etc...
Am I? In the level above him, I have four Ballon D'Or winners (Rooney only once managed to be in top 5), arguably the two greatest keepers of all time, the defaul right back and left back choices in all-time lists, and the best two central defenders of this century.
To be fair, I admit that it is very subjective and almost any player can be one list above or below. I don't think that it is criminally though, you can replace his name with Robben, Ribery, Bale, Lampard, Gerrard (or pretty much anyone in the list) and say the same thing.
Can we clarify some definitions of generational talent and world class talent. Generational means there won’t/hasn’t been another player as talented In the world for a generation ie at least 10 years in football terms. World class means they get into a global squad of 16 players as far as I know.
Did people really use those metrics?
Did people really use those metrics?
Of players that have finished or almost finished their careers, unquestionably Rooney. Only R9 and Messi have been better at such a young age in my lifetime. There's a case to be made for Michael Owen as well. But again, I see the word 'talent' as meaning potential rather than finished product, so what they accomplished over the course of their careers isn't a factor. Only the potential they showed as youngsters. I also think it would be pointless to discuss career-spanning accomplishments as far as this thread goes, seeing as the players we've been asked to rank have barely started their careers.
Performances like Rooney's and Owen's when they were 18 are extremely rare in football, like "once or twice a decade" rare, which puts them in or around the 'generational' tier for me. Since Rooney I can only really say Messi and Mbappe have caught my eye in a similar fashion. Greenwood and Sancho (the two outstanding English talents, in my opinion) aren't quite there, but they're not far off either. Both of them look like they can become Ballon d'Or contenders if they fulfil their potential. Becoming World-renowned all-time legends like the one's you listed in your other post is a different matter entirely, though.
Usually I would bet on this (agreeing with you), but I don't feel that way with anything hovering around the 2000 born generation. If anything, I would like to know which national side has a more impressive collection of talent coming through at the same time. I think France will be there, and Portugal + Netherlands will be hovering outside of that albeit a bigger difference in age across the national team.
Nothing at first team level has disproven what many scouts regarded as the class of their generation. And we'll see when the 2003 generations come (England and France look above the rest).
I’m sorry but TAA is not a generational talent at all. Not even close.
He was moved to right back from midfield because you don’t need to have the same level of awareness or speed of thought and it’s considered an easier way to men’s football. His passing is very good, he’s ok going forward but can be wasteful and is bang average defensively. He’s done well there overall but fullbacks can never be a generational talent.
If he moves into midfield again like some are mentioning and somehow starts playing like Baresi then might possibly accept he’s a generational talent.
He was moved to right back from midfield because you don’t need to have the same level of awareness or speed of thought and it’s considered an easier way to men’s football. His passing is very good, he’s ok going forward but can be wasteful and is bang average defensively. He’s done well there overall but fullbacks can never be a generational talent.
If he moves into midfield again like some are mentioning and somehow starts playing like Baresi then might possibly accept he’s a generational talent.
How the feck are many here labeling players as good, excelent, etc that havent played in the premier yet? I mean how the feck are we supposed to define if Garner, Mengi, Laird or all the other unknown players from other teams are generational talents when they arent even part of a first team never mind given chances to prove anything.
It's weird always weird to me when people don't understand that each position is hugely important to a teams success. Strikers and wingers aren't the only positions.
Based on the shear number of young England players who are labelled as excellent, world class, or even generational talents; we can expect England to be huge favourites for the 2026 World Cup right?
Generational talent: NONE
World Class: TAA
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World Class: TAA
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It's laughable
We’re talking about talent here as a football player. Not performances in a certain role.
It’s a brutal statement but it’s true. Players only become fullbacks because they don’t offer enough on the wing or in midfield and maybe they have some defensive qualities. TAA would be poor in any other position as he doesn’t possess enough qualities to excel either in midfield or on the wing. His defensive attributes are not exactly brilliant.
When the most biased Liverpool pundit in history (Sourness) casts doubt on TAAs ability to play in midfield that should tell you all you need to know.
He does v well overall in his position but even then he’s also helped by a superb coach with a brilliant system for him. It’s a stretch but based on performances he could be labelled as being “world class” in his position, but to call him a generational talent or even world class talent as a footballer is ridiculous.
What's laughable about it?
Which national sides have a collection of talent coming through at roughly around the same time to where you can classify it as a potential WC favorite? I think very highly of France as well, and Netherlands/Portugal have potential to be considered there for that world cup. Age difference has to be more concentrated because for example VVD will be in his 30s when Unuvar, Gravenberch, and Ihattaren are nearing primes. That age difference matters as it can potentially weaken a side depending on the world cup year.
Again this is a terrible statement imo. There are different skills required for different roles. His crossing alone makes him world class he has Beckham level ability on long balls. He crosses better than 95% of wingers in world football. Crossing and long passes are critical at the top level. Is another player better than him because they are a better dribbler?
I don’t pretend to watch Liverpool regularly but I don’t think his crossing and long passing is even near world class.
Even if it was your post in itself seems to admit he’s not world class talent, let alone a generational talent. Being better than 95% of wingers at crossing doesn’t make him world class even if it was true.