Or maybe you don't understand that some positions are more important than others. A great striker helps the team more than a great defender. There are clear reasons why strikers cost more, earn more, win more individual trophies and are more in all-time lists than defenders.
Rank the English talent
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
You can in sports apparently. Just look around and see how many G.O.A.T's there are
This thread reminds me of Steven Gerrard’s “Joe Cole is better than Messi” claim almost ten years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/aug/10/joe-cole-messi-gerrard-liverpool
In other words, not even bothering with an appropriate response.
With Cristano it was clear as day when he played against us in 2003 with Sporting Lissabon already. Messi.. I think he was 16 years old. Ronaldinho while he was at PSG in Champions League. Ronaldo in the world cup 98. Haven't seen any talents like it since.
People like to assume that there will always be someone like that but there's a reason they are generational talents. I don't see anyone that will sperate themselves from the rest to that degree right now.
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I did if you bothered to read.
Apparently England have 3, right now.
Could have had Adnan Januzaj too if he didn't waste his career with Belgium instead.
No you did not. You think just listing 1 or 2 names was an appropriate response to my question that came after that post/question?
You offered nothing. I asked which national teams could be considered favorites as a collection of talents coming through? Or you could give a response where you believe it's not possible to name a national team as a principle. Any of the two will do.
Was never even possible anyways due to the Home nations rule, but that's beside your point.
You could make the same thread for other nations, France and Holland especially. It won’t necessarily translate into international success though. Spain bossed youth football whilst they were bossing senior international football but have failed to produce an international tournament winning side from those groups of players yet.
It's funny how these daft new terms that spring up quickly become entirely meaningless. Saw somebody referred to as "the GOAT of the decade" not long ago.You can in sports apparently. Just look around and see how many G.O.A.T's there are
Callum Hudson-Odoi being put near the top of some lists...
Whats al this people arguing TAA is not worldclass, at the moment he's the best RB in the world, like actually the literal definition of worldclass.
Sure. Except in this "tier" system, there is a level higher... "generational" (whatever that means). No problem with calling TAA World Class... but in my understanding of "generational", he is not that.
Its because you cant call someone generational as a youngster, that term is given after that generation played. Its just impossible to predict if he will be a "generational" player because we dont know if another player from that generation will be better.
If Mpabbe moves to a more competitive league, he's the only one with that kind of ceiling i think
I said at their peak. You don’t think any of those players will be world class at some point?
TAA is in great form, and he's definitely one of if not the best RB in the world.
He's certainly not generational though, he needs to stay hungry over 10-15 years. He has a very long career ahead of him.
It's very much unlikely he will become a Cafu because I doubt that Liverpool will be dominant for that long, I'd say he's world class but for how long.
Greenwood, let's see how he develops, he could be world class, he could be generational, but he could also just end up being a brilliant finisher like an Owen.
It's sad to say but we generally don't know what injuries will happen, if a player will stagnate, at 18 years old you can't see a players entire trajectory.
Mbappe for instance relies heavily on pace, when he gets to 25-26 he will have to slow down a bit and he won't be the same 'explosive' player, for that reason he would never reach the heights of Messi. It's why I never understood when France beat Argentina how the media and pundits were saying 'the changing of the guard, the next great' with them shaking hands, when it was far from the truth.
We would love to say that Greenwood is going to be the next big thing, and I as a United fan would love for that to happen, but let's judge that in 3-4 years after he's had a few seasons under his belt.
He's certainly not generational though, he needs to stay hungry over 10-15 years. He has a very long career ahead of him.
It's very much unlikely he will become a Cafu because I doubt that Liverpool will be dominant for that long, I'd say he's world class but for how long.
Greenwood, let's see how he develops, he could be world class, he could be generational, but he could also just end up being a brilliant finisher like an Owen.
It's sad to say but we generally don't know what injuries will happen, if a player will stagnate, at 18 years old you can't see a players entire trajectory.
Mbappe for instance relies heavily on pace, when he gets to 25-26 he will have to slow down a bit and he won't be the same 'explosive' player, for that reason he would never reach the heights of Messi. It's why I never understood when France beat Argentina how the media and pundits were saying 'the changing of the guard, the next great' with them shaking hands, when it was far from the truth.
We would love to say that Greenwood is going to be the next big thing, and I as a United fan would love for that to happen, but let's judge that in 3-4 years after he's had a few seasons under his belt.
Agreed, you don't see any 19 year olds doing what Messi did against Getafe
If a 19 year old does this, or scores a hat-trick against Real Madrid at age 20 and just ghosts past defenders in their prime that's when I take notice.
Someone with strong 2 feet and that's a good finisher I wouldn't say 'generational talent' we'll definitely have to see.
plus some 'generational talents' are lesser ones to previous eras, for instance if you have a player better than a current batch of players, it doesn't mean they'll be another Messi or Pele.
We should make things clear. To say someone is potentially something doesn't mean they are at that level or they will be at that level guaranteed. It's only to say they have a chance to do it given their talent. For example, if people say Haaland, Mbappe, and Greenwood can potentially be that, they're not saying all 3 will do it or that any of them will do it. Just that there is a possibility of them getting to that stage in a way that say someone like Abraham (I like Tammy btw) will likely not be. Some talents you're able to say you can potentially see them fulfilling a certain amount of promise, where as other ones are completely unrealistic.
And I guess the other contention is the definition of generational. Do we literally mean the best footballer over a long span of years? Or do we mean someone like Iniesta, Xavi, Neymar, Rio, etc...? Maybe people can define what they believe generational, world class, etc... mean.
who are the generational talents coming from holland?
Personally I don't like the term 'generational talent' but they've been very successful at youth level in recent years: Mohammed Ihatteran, Ryan Gravenberch, Myron Boadu, Naci Unuvar and Jayden Braff at City has been one of the best players in the English youth leagues recently. It won't be a surprise if they are one the the very elite international sides once again in a few years.
What's wrong with that? Can't wait to hear this.Callum Hudson-Odoi being put near the top of some lists...
The biggest talents are Frenkie, De Ligt, Ihattaren, Gravenberch, and Unuvar. I don't think you can slap the latter 3 with that potential label until they do more at first team level. You could label the first 2 with that potential a year or so ago, but De Ligt started the season not as strong compared to his reputation and I haven't kept up with Barca to think Frenkie is potentially world class in midfield. Therefore it's a bit iffy to still be able to use that, especially with someone like Frenkie.
Someone who watches these talents a little more closely could give a better assessment than me. They would have to be consistently great year in year out and with certain ability to be able to project a player to be generational (depending on the definition).
People are judging him based on what he is right now. Someone like me is judging his talent and what he could be should he get it right. It's not far fetched to say he's in that elite bracket in terms of potential.
It's not the same situation, but Ravel is the perfect example of this if we were to be transported to the year 2013. If he were to get it right, with his ability, it's reasonable to think he could have become that world beater. Meanwhile, most would agree the more successful Lingard would have no hope in reaching that level because of ability lacks compared to someone like Ravel.
I don't get why some people don't understand the logic, given that we're on a United forum with clear memories of Ravel's ability.
Saka is in the same tier as Foden + Greenwood without a shadow of doubt.
If we base it on right now only Trent deserves to be put above excellent.
Got no issue with people saying he's got it all to prove still, ofcourse he does infact apart from Trent everyone on that list do to varying degrees.
I do however take objection to people trying to deny his talent, which would be at this point based on nothing more than a poor couple months of form while returning from a serious injury.
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Yes but there's a wide gap between Messi and Ashley Cole, for example. You can't put them on the same padestal in any shape or form. I'm not saying England have a Messi level talent or even someone who belongs on a higher tier, but an argument can be made that a top RB isn't on par with potentially great forward.
There are other 2001s starting to get minutes that are not on the list in this thread
Curtis Jones at Liverpool
Anthony Gordon at Everton too, already looks a better player than the likes of Iwobi and Bernard.
The problem that England have is how top heavy this talent is. All wide forwards and attacking midfielders.
Curtis Jones at Liverpool
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Anthony Gordon at Everton too, already looks a better player than the likes of Iwobi and Bernard.
The problem that England have is how top heavy this talent is. All wide forwards and attacking midfielders.
I'd say those are really good examples of "world class" and a "generational talent".
Messi is beyond generational. Zidane is generational. Messi is GOAT level.
That's not on the table in the OP though!
Again this a very simplic and poor view imo. Especially in a system like Liverpool play where literally the full backs are the creative hub of the team. You can't just put any player there. I think alot of people would argue trents involvement is on par with the likes of mane and Salah especially in their system.
He’s on over 100k a week and his manager is saying that he lacks consistency. The latter point is okay for a young player, but can you honestly say he’s produced the output of a Greenwood, Sancho or Haaland? At this point there’s a great deal of hype for a player who has delivered very little.
Apparently there is a difference between a generational talent and a generational player
Talent can be there but the potential not realized.
While player will be as you mentioned, in hindsight.
I'll rather stick to not using the terms at all.
You on about what he said after the Watford game? He said the same thing almost word for word about Pulisic in September and that's turned out allright.
And no ofcourse he's not better than the likes of Sancho right now, but this whole thread is mainly about potential ceilings of young players and his is very high.
So IMO only Greenwood and Sancho have a chance in the “generational talent” section but only because they are still both under 20 so their ceiling is less apparent than someone like Rashford who is a few years ahead so we can see at his current rate of improvement would be likely to max out in the “world class” category.
Sancho and Greenwood have a lot of the X factor things you look for in players that become top 3 or 4 in the world - they are both very good decision makers already, both have certain features to their game that make them very unpredictable to opponents and both are already getting plenty of games right at the top. Obviously though, it’s too early to tell and they’ll need to get to 22-23 before we have a better idea.
Surprised also to see no Ben Godfrey of Norwich. I think he’s got every chance of being in and around the England first team in a couple of years
Sancho and Greenwood have a lot of the X factor things you look for in players that become top 3 or 4 in the world - they are both very good decision makers already, both have certain features to their game that make them very unpredictable to opponents and both are already getting plenty of games right at the top. Obviously though, it’s too early to tell and they’ll need to get to 22-23 before we have a better idea.
Surprised also to see no Ben Godfrey of Norwich. I think he’s got every chance of being in and around the England first team in a couple of years
Foden and Greenwood have potential to become legends of the game. Don't think they'll reach Cristiano and Messi numbers (doubt someone ever will).
Tier 1: Messi, Cristiano, Maradonna, Pelé, Gerd Muller,
Tier 2: Zidane, Brazilian Ronaldo, Kaká, Iniesta
Tier 3: Rooney, Ibrahimovic, Pirlo, Robben, Aguero,
Don't think Greenwood and Foden will join Messi and Cristiano in Tier 1. I think if it all goes well they will end up in tier 3, players with world class abillity and a great addition to any team. Players who can decide a game by themselves on a good day, but lack that little bit of magic that tier 2 has.
Tier 1: Messi, Cristiano, Maradonna, Pelé, Gerd Muller,
Tier 2: Zidane, Brazilian Ronaldo, Kaká, Iniesta
Tier 3: Rooney, Ibrahimovic, Pirlo, Robben, Aguero,
Don't think Greenwood and Foden will join Messi and Cristiano in Tier 1. I think if it all goes well they will end up in tier 3, players with world class abillity and a great addition to any team. Players who can decide a game by themselves on a good day, but lack that little bit of magic that tier 2 has.
True, but that's also true for Foden, Sancho and especially Trent. They, well outside of Trent certainly have ballon d'or potential. Not era defining potential though imo.
I've never seen the talent in him to be the equal of someone like Sancho. Maybe he hasn't shown his qualities yet.
Alright but the same logic applies.
Generational should be the rarest of rare kind of player IMO
Oh I love this. Why is Kaka in Tier 2?!