Rashford and Martial are a problem

Toad

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Martial does a lot of work off the ball and his holdup play is really good but other than that he has been poor, I'm not sure whether it's just the system that doesn't suit him or whether he is going through a ad patch. A year or two ago he had the world at his feet but he just hasn't pushed on, it seems like as he is maturing he is getting worse, I want to see the raw Martial again, the player that get's in behind or dribbles past someone and calmly slots the ball home.
 

stw2022

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I think they’re both average footballers whose trajectory hasn’t gone the way we hoped when they were fresh faced.

Rashford plays as if he is unaware of his limitations. Again something maybe an asset when he’s young and making his way in the world. When you’re nearly 300 games in for club and country and you still don’t know what your limitations are it’s a concern.

Rashford game has improved very little since he became established. He’s capable of scoring goals but I’m not sure any of the top 7 clubs in any of the top leagues in Europe would be falling over themselves to sign him. He’s benefited massively from playing for a side, despite our historic dip, still by and large have created more chances than most other teams we play against. If he was leading the line for a mid table side he’d be lucky to get 10 league goals a season

I’m not sure it’s form either. I think sadly we’ve seen him reach his limit. He may be here until he’s 33 and he’ll still be playing with his head down refusing to pass, thinking he gets points for just running the ball into a wall and nixing chance after chance, week after week.

Marital is at least aware of his team mates. Rashford is spectacularly ignorant of almost everything around him almost all the time.

At which point, almost 300 senior games in do we stop pretending this is something he’ll grow out of and start accepting this is the player he is and these are the limitations he’ll always have and decide whether or not it’s going to be good enough for what we want to kick on and achieve?
 
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Brexit_Brigade

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Rashford has 7 league goals from 18 games, so just under that 1 in 2 ratio that you ideally want from a striker.
Worth pointing out that he hasn't been on penalties this season and this return is up there with the top scorers from open play - Son and DCL are in the clear with 12 and 11 (I'd back Rashford to be ahead of then in May), Kane 9, Salah 8, Vardy 5.

Rashford has also contributed 5 assists, which means he has one fewer goal contribution than Fernandes from open play and has been one of the most productive players in the league. Wouldn't be able to tell from all the criticism he's been getting here - quite inexplicable to lump him in with Martial, Cavani and Greenwood (who has been frankly garbage - not his fault, obviously, but at this point anyone who says he should be starting ahead of Martial/Rashford hasn't seen him play all season).

For all the talk about Cavani showing him and Martial up and deserving to start, I think it's obvious there's a reason he's being used largely as a 60-minute sub at the moment - he's been invisible the few times he's started.
 

titan9700

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Can’t see both of these two being are front two next year one will be benched and replaced.
 

kirk buttercup

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Rashford and Martial should be competing for the same spot . I personally dont think they should be in the same Starting team . Neither are a CF. Play Cavani there and Go for An out and out 9 next summer . Both have been a little disappointing this season overall
 

arthurka

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When Rashford struggles to leave Henderson in the dust there is clearly a problem there. He looks absolutely shot, needs a rest.

The Martial experiment is already tried and has failed, needs to be an upgrade on him next summer.
 

Lentwood

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Martial is technically very good but doesn’t seem to have the knack of scoring scruffy goals or being effective when not playing well.

Rashford is technically ropey and is very frustrating to watch but does have a knack of pulling something out of the bag in big moments.

I feel both will need to be phased out and become rotation options rather than being regular starters. There’s no major shame in that, we’ve also had excellent backups in forward positions. They would still be involved in the majority of games at some point.
 

-Supreme-

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I think they’re both average footballers whose trajectory hasn’t gone the way we hoped when they were fresh faced.

Rashford plays as if he is unaware of his limitations. Again something maybe an asset when he’s young and making his way in the world. When you’re nearly 300 games in for club and country and you still don’t know what your limitations are it’s a concern.

Rashford game has improved very little since he became established. He’s capable of scoring goals but I’m not sure any of the top 7 clubs in any of the top leagues in Europe would be falling over themselves to sign him. He’s benefited massively from playing for a side, despite our historic dip, still by and large have created more chances than most other teams we play against. If he was leading the line for a mid table side he’d be lucky to get 10 league goals a season

I’m not sure it’s form either. I think sadly we’ve seen him reach his limit. He may be here until he’s 33 and he’ll still be playing with his head down refusing to pass, thinking he gets points for just running the ball into a wall and nixing chance after chance, week after week.

Marital is at least aware of his team mates. Rashford is spectacularly ignorant of almost everything around him almost all the time.

At which point, almost 300 senior games in do we stop pretending this is something he’ll grow out of and start accepting this is the player he is and these are the limitations he’ll always have and decide whether or not it’s going to be good enough for what we want to kick on and achieve?
Good post, I couldn't agree more.
 

Deery

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Rashford is on 200k a week there is no chance he’s going to be phased out he’s literally the future of the club and will start almost every game.

I do think we need a better striker however Haaland or Kane would be a dream.

Martial and Rashford aren’t out and out strikers but they are very good players as good as 90% of the league.
 

Trip721

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Rashford plays week in and week out, when he does sit Rashford, he still brings him on. He'll likely play Wed and then Saturday, the boy needs a week off, just rest him for a bit.

But also, he needs to stop taking on 2 players, every. single. time. Like others have said, pass the ball a bit more.
 

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Rashford is a one dimensional wide player (runs down the channels and cuts inside and takes a shot), he is not an out and out striker despite him wanting to believe this. You can see him trying so hard to convince himself and others that he is a striker by the decisions he makes on the pitch (like not passing to Cavani today for instance and trying to score himself) but unfortunately time and time again when he tries this, it does not come off and he loses the ball. His decision making is terrible and I suspect it's either because he is trying to prove he is a number 9, or he just doesn't have a good tactical understanding of the game. The only thing he is good at is he takes powerful shots and he has speed. Even his dribbling is not that good, lately he rarely takes people on like Hazard used to for Chelsea and would rather pass it sideways. He is also offside a lot reflecting the fact that he has not realised that he is faster than most and could probably start his run a couple of yards behind the defender. A world class striker would realise this.

I agree that he has probably peaked. We need to get him to play a simpler position that is not too complicated - he needs to just concentrate on being a winger, running past people, and crossing balls into the box because that he can do. I hate to say this but it is as if he is just a better version of Dan James.
 

Hammondo

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I think they’re both average footballers whose trajectory hasn’t gone the way we hoped when they were fresh faced.

Rashford plays as if he is unaware of his limitations. Again something maybe an asset when he’s young and making his way in the world. When you’re nearly 300 games in for club and country and you still don’t know what your limitations are it’s a concern.

Rashford game has improved very little since he became established. He’s capable of scoring goals but I’m not sure any of the top 7 clubs in any of the top leagues in Europe would be falling over themselves to sign him. He’s benefited massively from playing for a side, despite our historic dip, still by and large have created more chances than most other teams we play against. If he was leading the line for a mid table side he’d be lucky to get 10 league goals a season

I’m not sure it’s form either. I think sadly we’ve seen him reach his limit. He may be here until he’s 33 and he’ll still be playing with his head down refusing to pass, thinking he gets points for just running the ball into a wall and nixing chance after chance, week after week.

Marital is at least aware of his team mates. Rashford is spectacularly ignorant of almost everything around him almost all the time.

At which point, almost 300 senior games in do we stop pretending this is something he’ll grow out of and start accepting this is the player he is and these are the limitations he’ll always have and decide whether or not it’s going to be good enough for what we want to kick on and achieve?
Agreed.
 

Crackers

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I think they’re both average footballers whose trajectory hasn’t gone the way we hoped when they were fresh faced.

Rashford plays as if he is unaware of his limitations. Again something maybe an asset when he’s young and making his way in the world. When you’re nearly 300 games in for club and country and you still don’t know what your limitations are it’s a concern.

Rashford game has improved very little since he became established. He’s capable of scoring goals but I’m not sure any of the top 7 clubs in any of the top leagues in Europe would be falling over themselves to sign him. He’s benefited massively from playing for a side, despite our historic dip, still by and large have created more chances than most other teams we play against. If he was leading the line for a mid table side he’d be lucky to get 10 league goals a season

I’m not sure it’s form either. I think sadly we’ve seen him reach his limit. He may be here until he’s 33 and he’ll still be playing with his head down refusing to pass, thinking he gets points for just running the ball into a wall and nixing chance after chance, week after week.

Marital is at least aware of his team mates. Rashford is spectacularly ignorant of almost everything around him almost all the time.

At which point, almost 300 senior games in do we stop pretending this is something he’ll grow out of and start accepting this is the player he is and these are the limitations he’ll always have and decide whether or not it’s going to be good enough for what we want to kick on and achieve?
Great post.
 

SirScholes

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Can’t see both of these two being are front two next year one will be benched and replaced.
Shouldn’t be now
Our best striker is Cavani by a mile, it’s not just his finishing it’s the way he moves off the ball
Pulls defenders out of position, when ever someone has a shot he is always the only one following up, he’s always making runs when we’re in crossing positions
These things are developed at an early age and if Rashford/Martial aren’t doing them now they will never
They also naturally like to drift out wide and end up getting to the byline with no one to pull it back to
 

sean9988

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I find it shocking that a player with the speed of Rashford is offside so much! can't be blaming the timing of the passes either.
 

Brexit_Brigade

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I agree that he has probably peaked. We need to get him to play a simpler position that is not too complicated - he needs to just concentrate on being a winger, running past people, and crossing balls into the box because that he can do. I hate to say this but it is as if he is just a better version of Dan James.
Rashford game has improved very little since he became established. He’s capable of scoring goals but I’m not sure any of the top 7 clubs in any of the top leagues in Europe would be falling over themselves to sign him.

Utterly ridiculous. It's obvious from watching Rashford play, as well as from the stats, that his game has improved significantly over the last year alone - again, guy's on course to finish this season with 15 league goals and 10 assists from open play. Probably more since he's gone up a gear in the last month or so.

I genuinely wouldn't be surprised to see him hit 20 this season, and posts like this will look even stupider if he does. Are we really going to argue f*ckin' Leicester and Wolves wouldn't love to have him?
 

MZX7

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Martial does a lot of work off the ball and his holdup play is really good but other than that he has been poor, I'm not sure whether it's just the system that doesn't suit him or whether he is going through a ad patch. A year or two ago he had the world at his feet but he just hasn't pushed on, it seems like as he is maturing he is getting worse, I want to see the raw Martial again, the player that get's in behind or dribbles past someone and calmly slots the ball home.
He did nutmeg Trent Alexander Arnold today.
 

MZX7

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Both these players make you appreciate Rooney's goal tally at the club so much more. Rooney got all sorts of goals, worldies, ones with great technique, volleys, scruffy goala from close range, free kicks, penalties everything.

Rooney got goals when our midfield qas comprised of Cleverly and Anderson.

He got goals with partners like Falcao and Welbeck.

These two will never come close.

We need the next Rooney to lead our line. A better Rooney if possible.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I think they’re both average footballers whose trajectory hasn’t gone the way we hoped when they were fresh faced.

Rashford plays as if he is unaware of his limitations. Again something maybe an asset when he’s young and making his way in the world. When you’re nearly 300 games in for club and country and you still don’t know what your limitations are it’s a concern.

Rashford game has improved very little since he became established. He’s capable of scoring goals but I’m not sure any of the top 7 clubs in any of the top leagues in Europe would be falling over themselves to sign him. He’s benefited massively from playing for a side, despite our historic dip, still by and large have created more chances than most other teams we play against. If he was leading the line for a mid table side he’d be lucky to get 10 league goals a season

I’m not sure it’s form either. I think sadly we’ve seen him reach his limit. He may be here until he’s 33 and he’ll still be playing with his head down refusing to pass, thinking he gets points for just running the ball into a wall and nixing chance after chance, week after week.

Marital is at least aware of his team mates. Rashford is spectacularly ignorant of almost everything around him almost all the time.

At which point, almost 300 senior games in do we stop pretending this is something he’ll grow out of and start accepting this is the player he is and these are the limitations he’ll always have and decide whether or not it’s going to be good enough for what we want to kick on and achieve?
My God that’s a bad post.

For someone who is “spectacularly ignorant of almost everything around him almost all the time” how do you explain the assist last week and the way he so often links up superbly with Shaw when he gets to play in his preferred position on the left? (e.g build up to Fernandes chance). Something that is even more obvious when you consider how ineffective Martial is at doing the same when he plays on the left.

Rashford didn’t play well today and hasn’t been playing well for most of this season but the inability of so many on here to forget he literally broke his back carrying this team for most of last season genuinely boggles the mind. Fecking goldfish memories everywhere.

“None of the top seven clubs in any of the top leagues would sign him”. Jesus wept. That needs to be your tagline.
 

calodo2003

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Both were really bad today. They didn’t put the effort out to truly test the back two who were out of position.

If we can’t get the effort required out of these two in a match like today, harsh questions need to be asked & their respective spots a bit more in jeopardy. They can’t just be written directly into the starting eleven.
 

r0663664

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There shouldn't be an issue finding buyers for both players. I would keep Rushford and sell Martial in the summer transfer, he is simply not good to be the main man. Greenwood should be featuring more regularly with Cavani as backup. Rushford will be our left winger and Diallo on our right. I hope that we have youngster who can step up to fill the sub role on the left.
 

Brexit_Brigade

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Greenwood should be featuring more regularly
Have you watched him play at all this season? Has he done anything to suggest he's ready to start ahead of these two?

I'm going to run out of posts within a few minutes just raging at the complete tripe being posted in this thread.

Rashford didn’t play well today and hasn’t been playing well for most of this season but the inability of so many on here to forget he literally broke his back carrying this team for most of last season genuinely boggles the mind. Fecking goldfish memories everywhere.
Harsh to say he hasn't been playing well for most of the season, too. He's largely been very good since he came on in that West Ham game, with a couple of off games against Leicester - where he still scored and continually got into great positions - and Wolves - where he got the winning goal, crap as it was.

He's having a better season than the likes of Mane and Sterling. He and Fernandes have carried the rest of the attack to the top of the table at the halfway mark in the season, and geniuses on RedCafe are calling him an upgraded Dan James who wouldn't get into Leicester's team :lol:
 
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OleGunnar20

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My God that’s a bad post.

For someone who is “spectacularly ignorant of almost everything around him almost all the time” how do you explain the assist last week and the way he so often links up superbly with Shaw when he gets to play in his preferred position on the left? (e.g build up to Fernandes chance). Something that is even more obvious when you consider how ineffective Martial is at doing the same when he plays on the left.

Rashford didn’t play well today and hasn’t been playing well for most of this season but the inability of so many on here to forget he literally broke his back carrying this team for most of last season genuinely boggles the mind. Fecking goldfish memories everywhere.

“None of the top seven clubs in any of the top leagues would sign him”. Jesus wept. That needs to be your tagline.
Agreed. Rashford is a top player. If he were on the market I've no doubt that clubs would be lining up around the block to take him. We've been utterly reliant on his contribution for a while now which has led to him getting basically no rest, and it shows.

Guy needs a rest in the short term, and to be allowed to continue off the left in the long. Yes hes fine off the right but it removes his greatest threat - cutting onto his right foot. Greenwood / Diallo / Pellestri is more than enough potential for that spot going forward in my opinion.

Martial is no doubt a trickier one. His confidence is obviously shot and it remains to be seen how much longer Ole can persist with him in this form if we're to truly challenge for the title. I'd prefer to see Greenwood up there if he isn't getting starts at RW. We know he's a killer in front of goal and if he doesn't take the spot for himself who knows, maybe it'll light a fire under Martial similar to Shaws transformation this season.

Long term I like the following options, with room for a new, more established signing in any of the three spots:

Rashford / James
Martial / Greenwood / Cavani
Diallo / Pellestri
 

Counterfactual

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Rashford and Martial should be competing for the same spot . I personally dont think they should be in the same Starting team . Neither are a CF. Play Cavani there and Go for An out and out 9 next summer . Both have been a little disappointing this season overall
I like this idea. Competition works.

Shaw and Telles. (one from two)
Lindelof, Maguire and Bailly. (two from three)
Fernandes, VDB and Pogba. (two from three)

If we can get competition between Martial and Rashford, I'm sure they'd both improve.

The question is, who would play consistently in the vacated wing position? We don't really have anyone. James hasn't stepped up. Perhaps Diallo will. I don't see us playing Cavani routinely with only one of Martial or Rashford.
 

Bwuk

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I wouldn’t be surprised if Ole tries to move Martial on and get a out and out striker.
 

Josep Dowling

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It hasn’t worked for Rashford since being moved to the right. Had we signed a decent RW we wouldn’t need to keep rotating players to accommodate that position. I do think he’s greedy, or at least his decision making for a final ball is a big weakness. He’s also lacking that confidence to run at goal, he has a tendency to stop and look behind for a pass.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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What is it with this place.

I’m sorry but that post calling both ‘average’ is a fecking travesty.

Neither are Ronaldo or Messi but put Rashford up for sale tomorrow & the lads definitely wanted by the ‘Top 7 clubs’.

This place goes from calling Fred ‘the most underrated player in England’ then calls Rashford ‘average’ - thank feck I found this place, it’s top class comedy in every thread.
 

Mbappe2021

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People when judging players need to take away where they come from or if they have come from the youth rank because it is clearly affecting the way some players are judged.

Rashford for me is very limited in the way that he plays so one dimensional,yes he can do a trick here and there but i wouldn't classified him as skilful like martial who you can see is clearly the most skilful of the two but rashy has pace and is so into believing a bit of his own hype that he is so driven.

The strange thing with rashford is that off the pitch he is giving and stuff but at times he is so slefish and whtat i find mind-boggling is that some people want to defend him on that when it isn't the first time,i remember a few years back when him and martial were fighting for the left hand side spot, he refused to pass and shot in a position he couldn't score from.

You listen to all of his interviews and the way he says the most important is that the team wins and after he comes and plays as selfish as he has done today and a couple of times you wonder if he is not a bit thick seriously,i have seen this on greenwood as well who is incredibly selfish soon as he gets near the penalty area.

Yes martial hasn't been at his best but he is a much better player and striker that both rashford and mason but most importantly he is a team player and that is what i like about him even when he isn't scoring he is always putting the team first something rashford struggles with.
 

Tincanalley

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Rashford had a choice at one point, to put in either Cavani or Pogba, who were both busting a gut on the break. He didn’t see either of them. He just went down a blind alley. His timing and movement was awful today. He didn’t seem to be on the wavelength of his team mates.

He made really poor decisions on the ball on more occasions than I can count. I strongly suspect we would have won today if we had a top quality player in his position. It’s time to let Marcus go. He’s a local academy lad, he’s done fabulous charity work. He has had his moments in the field of play - both with strikes and assists. But we waited too long for the breakthrough. It must be clear now to all, even himself, that he falls just a little bit short of the quality needed for Manchester United.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Rashford had a choice at one point, to put in either Cavani or Pogba, who were both busting a gut on the break. He didn’t see either of them. He just went down a blind alley. His timing and movement was awful today. He didn’t seem to be on the wavelength of his team mates.

He made really poor decisions on the ball on more occasions than I can count. I strongly suspect we would have won today if we had a top quality player in his position. It’s time to let Marcus go. He’s a local academy lad, he’s done fabulous charity work. He has had his moments in the field of play - both with strikes and assists. But we waited too long for the breakthrough. It must be clear now to all, even himself, that he falls just a little bit short of the quality needed for Manchester United.
:houllier:

Rashford’s really triggered some dogshit posts today. Remarkable stuff.
 

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There was negativity towards them before Ole came, and Ole changed that narrative. This season neither have managed to really build on it, and you could put it down to Covid and it's a weird season like Klopp would have said because let's all admit that we expected more from them this season. However they can still have a great year, it's not even February and there is more to come from both Rashford and Martial. If that wont happen, we still have Greenwood, Diallo and Facundo knocking on the door and we might even buy a missing piece to the attack in the summer. We're really not in panic mode even if these two guys never will be as good as Benzema and Ronaldo. We've come to expect so much from them because of their talent so I agree that it's disappointing watching them at the moment but it could be a lot worse.
 

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What's your view on how he's playing currently?
Below the level he established last season before the back issues. Above the level of most attacking players in the top six/seven. From what I’ve seen, only Son/Kane, Salah and Vardy have played better this season. Not counting playmakers like Bruno and De Bruyne then of course.
 

FrankDrebin

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Cant believe we're top of the PL and not one of our forwards is in any good form, doesn't look like its going to change anytime soon either.
Thankfully the midfield, back-four and DDG have been in good form recently.
 

Brexit_Brigade

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Below the level he established last season before the back issues. Above the level of most attacking players in the top six/seven. From what I’ve seen, only Son/Kane, Salah and Vardy have played better this season. Not counting playmakers like Bruno and De Bruyne then of course.
Vardy hasn't been any better either, take away the penalties and Rashford actually has more goals than him. Without the benefit of playing every game up front in a team designed to feed him.

People are just clueless. (Not you, to clarify)
 

parkthebuslads

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A good game for Martial now is him holding up the ball well a few times over 90 minutes. He offers very little else.

Rashford is incredibly unrefined, and yet very confident and aggressive. Unless he improves, it's no surprise to see him be consistently poor, with the occasional run of games when things come off.

I have at least some hope for Rashford, albeit not a lot.