Rashford and Martial combination

Snuffkin

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How much time does this "Boy" Martial need? He is not a striker.

Overrated, Over hyped, He is not a Manchester United player. Time to get rid.
Aye he's bang average
 

Fortitude

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He's weirdly overrated on the Caf, frankly. He's a decent player for a mid-table team because he's freakishly strong and quite quick. But in a thread talking about the lack of goals, it must be pointed out that he scored 6 in 71 for Wolves. Just for comparison: Sadio Mané had 25 in 75 for Southampton, Leroy Sané had 13 in 57 for Schalke and 39 in 134 for City - but of course a lot of those were substitute appearances.

Traoré is exactly the sort of player we shouldn't buy. He can "do a job" but he'll never be a top class player.
Not a fair comparison at all. Southampton and Schalke were both attacking teams and not rigid in how they wanted their attackers to play. It gives a freedom of expression not afforded to someone like Traore at Wolves who is in a defensive team and has a specific set of jobs to do in that team.
 

Rozay

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Good post, and needed with the current trend of slaughtering Martial on here. Lining up in a front 3 with Mata and Pereira is a joke, what can he be expected to do.
 

Siorac

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Not a fair comparison at all. Southampton and Schalke were both attacking teams and not rigid in how they wanted their attackers to play. It gives a freedom of expression not afforded to someone like Traore at Wolves who is in a defensive team and has a specific set of jobs to do in that team.
He had similar numbers at Middlesbrough, and only slightly better at Barca B.

He is just a player who doesn't score a lot. He's good at what he does and a good player but not someone we should sign - Wolves is perfect for him.
 

Fortitude

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He had similar numbers at Middlesbrough, and only slightly better at Barca B.

He is just a player who doesn't score a lot. He's good at what he does and a good player but not someone we should sign - Wolves is perfect for him.
Middlesbrough are not an attacking team. Barcelona B is there for players to iron out their game. I don't think it's a fair barometer to use in contrast to the professional game at adult level.

Traore has been used as an outlet runner since turning pro, not an attacking wing-forward, so he has to be compared to others who have done the same job for their teams, if an objective conclusion is to be reached.

Traore has even been considered a wing-back by some, such has been the roles and job briefings he's had.
 

Siorac

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Middlesbrough are not an attacking team. Barcelona B is there for players to iron out their game. I don't think it's a fair barometer to use in contrast to the professional game at adult level.

Traore has been used as an outlet runner since turning pro, not an attacking wing-forward, so he has to be compared to others who have done the same job for their teams, if an objective conclusion is to be reached.

Traore has even been considered a wing-back by some, such has been the roles and job briefings he's had.
There's probably a reason why he's been used that way throughout his career then. We need an attacking wide forward, not a touchline hugging runner and signing someone to then convert them at the age of 24 is generally not a great idea, or at least not in our present circumstances.
 

Mainoldo

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He's weirdly overrated on the Caf, frankly. He's a decent player for a mid-table team because he's freakishly strong and quite quick. But in a thread talking about the lack of goals, it must be pointed out that he scored 6 in 71 for Wolves. Just for comparison: Sadio Mané had 25 in 75 for Southampton, Leroy Sané had 13 in 57 for Schalke and 39 in 134 for City - but of course a lot of those were substitute appearances.

Traoré is exactly the sort of player we shouldn't buy. He can "do a job" but he'll never be a top class player.
I think it’s slightly the opposite. I feel certain fans find its a cheat code to be strong and fast. Therefore meaning there is nothing more to his game.

You can compare him to those players but his trajectory is different.. he’s gone from a highly rated player at Barcelona to fighting it out with struggling teams in the Prem and Championship... but he’s education is well rounded. Wolves have really worked on his raw talent and I think now is the perfect time for him to go up a level again where he can start to stat pad like the names above.

Antonio Valencia had 6 goals in around 89 games for Wigan.
 

Fortitude

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There's probably a reason why he's been used that way throughout his career then. We need an attacking wide forward, not a touchline hugging runner and signing someone to then convert them at the age of 24 is generally not a great idea, or at least not in our present circumstances.
This isn't the thread for it, so I'll make this my last post on Traore.

My take on the player, as far as the caf is concerned, is that there is a wish to shoehorn him to fit a pre-determined ideal the person already has of him and for that reason, not much thought is given to the why's, how's of X, Y, Z with him. I think it's also pretty apparent that within those ideals, growth is not accepted nor the notion he is developing and learning. Development time is not uniform and nor is it a given that what he is now is all he's ever going to be.

I think he is rarely given the benefit of the doubt, which I find harsh because there is something to him, certainly something to work with, anyway.

I made a post in his thread in the football forum, which properly outlines my thoughts on him, though.
 

Leftback99

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The massive drop off in the quality of their replacements is the problem. No goals or creative ability in any of them.

No more than one of Mata, James, Pereira, Greenwood and Lingard should be starting in a front 3/4 for ANY PL team, let alone one with our aspirations. Imagine we were facing them, would we fear them?
 

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The day Rashford broke in on his debut under LVG I knew that Rashford & Martial would set up this way ( martial false 9) under a manager eventually so I'm not surprised to see them this way under Ole.

It was obvious from that day on that martial on the left and Rashford in the middle didn't make sense never mind memphis depay - it just didn't flow & I couldn't see how martial on the left, Rashford in the centre & a left footed right forward would be creative enough for Rashford or if Martial was too unilateral himself in the way he played LW - always cutting in.

However I really do like Martial in the middle when he plays deep & when he has strikers on either side of him & that's the important word here - strikers.

I really don't see Rashford as a winger on the left & I don't see Greenwood as a winger on the right - I see them as strikers and I see Martial as a pure support striker who tries to play in between them, holding the ball down, playing balls and trying to play them through.

I really do like it, but it's a exceptionally hard tactic to pull off with no squad depth, injuries and a arguably a manager who makes some right decisions alongside some wrong ones.

1.Greenwood is more like Rashford than James is, is left footed, can cut in, has the ability to run in to a pass that martial has dropped deep to hold on to before playing on to him and taking a quick shot - what does James do? James takes it further away, wider away and crosses it in.

Greenwood maybe not ready, but has hardly started a game with Rashford & Martial - I see no reason for him not to be playing alongside the best players in the best set up. Greenwood & Rashford become a wide strikers partnership playing exceptionally wide interlinked by Martial from deep with Martial making late runs in to the box which he does do after he makes 1-2 passes, we all see this. He wants to do it.

Now Martial finds himself as a player who naturally plays a support strikers game playing a support strikers role to absolutely nobody - you see it, him trying to hold the ball and pass to who? James, Mata? Lingard? Pereira? He drops deep for the runs of what? For one player who hugs the touch line or can't cut in and score or another one who is a pure play maker.

2. The other mistake Ole makes is seen is on the athletic post which indicated the similarities of our attack to Liverpool's attack but the difference in position. Rashford & Greenwood's positionings are so deep and wide whilst Martial is the furthest forward when it should so clearly be the other way around - Rashford & Greenwood the furthest up, a little wide when receiving the ball on the counter but narrow enough to attack and utelise each other whilst Martial plays within the pockets of space as a true false 9 behind his two wide men and not as a striker who is the furthest up trying to press and drop deep at the same time.

https://theathletic.com/1537797/202...wood-mane-salah-firmino?source=shared-article

I get the boy is irritating - but I've seen this wide strikers partnership of Rashford & Greenwood or potentially someone else with a left foot on the right flank for nearly 4 years now & Martial is a very useful player of making something like that potentially work.

We do need a different breed of striker for when this tactic does not work - but this tactic can be so good that I think shipping Martial out would be stupid because are there many strikers available that would allow us to play a false 9 & if so, is there any real reason we need to replace like for like? I don't think so.

For me Rashford had struggled as a central striker & is playing as a wide striker - not a winger and is playing so next to a support striker. Rashford plays a completely different sport to LW role he played whenever Zlatan was upfront - a player who could bring him in to play as well as when Lukaku was upfront; a player who couldn't. Greenwood likewise is the only one who matches this on the left & Martial to me is good tactic to have as a third man of that strikers line up playing the supportive role of trying to link that or someone else up.

@JPRouve @He'sRaldo

Thoughts?

I could literally post this on every martial thread but I did it here.
 

Siorac

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I think it’s slightly the opposite. I feel certain fans find its a cheat code to be strong and fast. Therefore meaning there is nothing more to his game.

You can compare him to those players but his trajectory is different.. he’s gone from a highly rated player at Barcelona to fighting it out with struggling teams in the Prem and Championship... but he’s education is well rounded. Wolves have really worked on his raw talent and I think now is the perfect time for him to go up a level again where he can start to stat pad like the names above.

Antonio Valencia had 6 goals in around 89 games for Wigan.
You know, I did want to say that he reminds me of Valencia. And honestly, I wouldn't want Valencia now. He'd be an improvement over James or Mata, sure, but not the type of player we need.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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I’d play them as a front 2, but every manager we get seems to play defensively with a lone striker
You don't need a front 2 to be attacking though.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Martial drops deep to get the ball and ability to bring others into play often give Rashford more space to be in a position of scoring goal or make a good run. Rashford's Norwich, Newcastle & Chelsea are example of it. As soon as one of them got injured, both of them become less effective. However, this doesn't make both of them are relying on each other a lot, especially for Rashford, I thought his game play has been improved a lot this season especially when Martial was out for a while, he was able to improve his game and scored some important goal like the Liverpool & Spurs game for example. His movement in the box, his heading ability & his long range shooting have been improved.
 

Steerpike

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The stats don't lie in this case. However, I don't see them as a great duo that work well together. I think the stats are so more because two good scorers on the pitch is much more effective than just one. It's as simple as that.

For sure, they team up well every once in a while with some slick passing and finding each other. Most of the time, though, they seem to be on a different page with one making a run when the other thought he was posting up. Someday they might be a cohesive unit but they are not right now. Maybe, a good 10 like Bruno, can help create better chemistry.
That's what I believe as well. I don't think it's a case of Martial being a great partner for Rashford, just that he's a better option than having nobody there at all. If we can find a genuine main striker to play alongside Rashford (i.e. Rashford would be the second striker rather than the main goal threat), that could be a very decent partnership indeed.
 

ghaliboy

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Martial needs Rashford.
Rashford doesn't need Martial.

But both players would become better if we got better wide players on both sides and had another couple of quality midfielders in to push McTominay and Fred on.
 

CM10

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Both of them are better when the other is on the pitch, for sure. Rashford struggled with the lone striker role when Martial was out because he has problems with the hold up and playing back to goal. Martial can do that but always drops deep or comes wide to pick up the ball, so if Rashford isn't making the run in behind or getting in the box, no one does.

It basically boils down to a lack of depth and quality in the forward positions. We've relied on those two, Greenwood and Dan James for the season - and the latter two aren't ready to be starting games on a weekly basis. There aren't enough goalscorers in this team.
 

Camilo

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Obviously we're better when our only two recognizable strikers are playing, but that doesn't make me think that the pair of them are the future of our attack. Rashford is a talented guy and I'm all for him being a major part of the team moving forward, but Martial is deeply limited. I've no idea who's out there, but the club should really be looking for a replacement. Sure, we'll score more goals with him than without right now, but I don't think that means anything apart from the squad is bawhair thin. I think we'd have been better off send Martial to Inter.

I don't think we need a surgical transfer window, I think we should be looking at two or three attackers coming in... See who sticks. Bring a little competition to the front line.
 

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Neither are ‘Fox in the box’ types, bursting a gut to get on the end of crosses. Martial in particular is too static in the box for my liking. He’s a good linkup player but not good at making runs to the near or far posts for example. We really really missed out with Haaland :(
 

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Great thread title. If you could fuse/merge them together in to one player, then that would be ideal. You'd get the good traits of both only..........hopefully. Neither are a true striker, that is for sure.
 

amolbhatia50k

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They're good footballers who unsurprisingly perform when surrounded by other good footballers.
 

poleglass red

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I think the Martial/ Rashford combination when it's fully on is excellent. I'm not a huge fan of Martial, I understand his role is difficult in a team with little creativity from midfield as it has been for a while for us. But even with the introduction of Fernandes v Wolves, his lack of movement is apparent. You could see Fernandes looking up to play the pass but Martial time and again didn't make the run. Is he tired, overworked - possibly, with a large doze of low confidence added right now, plus it is only one game so getting used to each other will take time. I think when we have all our pieces in place Martial can and will be useful, but right now that's not the case. I think most forward players would gel with Rashford, we've seen him do it for England as well. I don't think every forward player would gel with Martial
 

Smores

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Neither are ‘Fox in the box’ types, bursting a gut to get on the end of crosses. Martial in particular is too static in the box for my liking. He’s a good linkup player but not good at making runs to the near or far posts for example. We really really missed out with Haaland :(
Is he a good link up player though or is this new obsession with him being a false 9 just to excuse his other short comings?

There's plenty of strikers in this league who are great at getting the ball and linking up play with others and i really don't see how Martial is one of them.

It's probably the best way we could use him with both on the pitch but I'd much rather we got a player naturally suited to that role.
 

JPRouve

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Neither are ‘Fox in the box’ types, bursting a gut to get on the end of crosses. Martial in particular is too static in the box for my liking. He’s a good linkup player but not good at making runs to the near or far posts for example. We really really missed out with Haaland :(
For that price Haaland was a no brainer but I don't see the link with Martial and Rashford. The player that you are looking for doesn't have to be the number 9, it could easily be right side forward which is a position that we still haven't properly filled. With proper coaching Greenwood could be that player but I don't have faith in our coaching staff otherwise I wouldn't mind it if we tried to get players like Volland or Bailey, they are different but either of them could provide a dozen of goals and assists per seasons in the league.
 

He'sRaldo

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@Bebestation

That's pretty much it.

The real problem with Martial is simply that he hasn't been playing the striker role for that long, despite being a natural striker. When he was bought, we shunted him onto the wing for years until this season, and now he's learning by trial and error, the nuances of his position.

I remember when Rashford was making poor decision after poor decision the past seasons and even earlier in this season. There were those who simply couldn't stand it, and would have him shipped to the Championship. However, I also remember reading some good posts about him simply learning his position, and if given time, he'll cut out the poor decisions more and more, and be able to flourish more in his role. And guess what, the latter proved to be true because Rashford's quality was always evident.

For Martial, there are flaws to his CF game currently. Now there are those who can't stand that thought and believe he'll never iron those out, and would have him shipped off and a "ready-made" CF in the mould of Lukaku come in and score tap-ins. However, there are also those who recognize that this is his first season at our club playing CF week in, week out and he will need time to learn and perfect his role. Therefore he will not be perfect. Expecting such is setting one's self up for disappointment. The good thing though, is he has shown the quality and determination over the years to believe that he can improve to a high level under the right guidance, as well as having the right age profile to gel with our other young forwards.

Now we can throw that all away and bring in an older, more experienced striker to break up that partnership, in exchange for maybe an immediate boost in CF performances. That's perfectly valid. But I, as well as others, prefer to see how the strikers we have, who are obviously gelling and improving by playing together daily, can attain a high level both individually and as a unit, having built up years of understanding which is nearly impossible to replace.

Of course, there's a matter of the right-wing and I like @JPRouve 's suggestion of Volland, a good age profile not to hinder Greenwood, and complement the styles of our other 2 most prolific scorers. Then, of course, a backup to help in situations where the first choice striker partnership is not very effective would also be nice. But as a team, we should have all these things, not settle for one or the other, not ship out one in exchange for the other. We can go out and get a scrappy poacher, and still keep the partnership of Rashford, Martial, and Greenwood. That's what I'd prefer anyway, with the latter being our first choice strike partnership, and the former coming on whenever appropriate.
 

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Any eggs should sit on ED's face for not being able to sign any decent right side attacker.

I understand that you can try to get a player for a particular period of time, but, in the same time, you still need to cover your weakest area on the pitch. Nothing amazes me anymore with ED to be honest.

On topic, yes, Martial and Rashford look good together, but I still think Martial hasn't progressed at all and should be moved on. We can't rely on one attacker that is completely dependable of another being on the pitch, it's daft.
We need a serious upgrade on Martial if we're aiming for big things.
 

JPRouve

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Any eggs should sit on ED's face for not being able to sign any decent right side attacker.

I understand that you can try to get a player for a particular period of time, but, in the same time, you still need to cover your weakest area on the pitch. Nothing amazes me anymore with ED to be honest.

On topic, yes, Martial and Rashford look good together, but I still think Martial hasn't progressed at all and should be moved on. We can't rely on one attacker that is completely dependable of another being on the pitch, it's daft.
We need a serious upgrade on Martial if we're aiming for big things.
How is that daft, it's pretty much the case for all attackers on earth and by that logic we need to move on from Rashford too. The problem for us is who replaces these two players when they are not on the pitch, what is daft is to suggest that we should move on from them when we should add quality and whoever performs better, starts.
 

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State of some of these posts...:houllier:

More than glad to see these 2 developing a real great understanding on the pitch together, got the makings of Cole and Yorke 2.0
 

TheGodsInRed

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The promosing thing about about this is all of those players are in thier prime at age 27+, except Martial and Rashford, who surely have huge potential to get better. In addition, they have had less appearances than all the others (29 and 28). If they can both stay fit for a season, we could see some big numbers.
 

Yagami

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I guess it fits here, too:

Here's another stat for you:

Rashford has assisted Martial 5 times in the Premiership. Only two other couples have more - De Bryune to Aguero (6) & Traore to Raul (7).
 

Idxomer

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Don't know if anyone mentioned it but both equalled Ibrahimovic's league tally for 2016/2017 season today.

They really should've been trusted 4 years ago more than we'd seen, and why Mourinho's years were a waste.
 

SirAnderson

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Don't know if anyone mentioned it but both equalled Ibrahimovic's league tally for 2016/2017 season today.

They really should've been trusted 4 years ago more than we'd seen, and why Mourinho's years were a waste.
Tbf, they were younger and inconsistent then and less mature at their game then.

Helps also that they have a lethal striker in his own right as their manager and not a Busesaurus of a manager!!
 

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Its actually becoming annoying because I want one of them to at least reach 20 goals in the league but they are both busy doing to me to you to me to you to me to you. One of them should just score a hattrick against Westham. Dont care who. We are at home. The other can pick up assists to balance it out.
 

E-mal

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How much time does this "Boy" Martial need? He is not a striker.

Overrated, Over hyped, He is not a Manchester United player. Time to get rid.

No wonder he can't make the France squad. He is probably the most overrated player United have had in the last few seasons.
This aged well Mr @James Ward