Rashford and the offside conundrum

[RashyForPM]

To start off, I love Rashford as a player and as a person just like everyone else; we can all see that by my username and posts about him.

However, while his general decline in form can be put down to fatigue, which can simply be solved by a rest in the cup game, him being offside every 15 minutes in every game cannot. That is just pure ill-disciplined negligence in his running and laziness. Ole has to drum into him the importance of staying onside when running, because it simply breaks down our counter-attacks and somewhat negates one of our big strengths. It’s these small things which cost you games. I felt we played well yesterday but I’m also convinced that we would have scored if Rashford’s running wasn’t as awful as it was. Maybe he shouldn’t be playing upfront.

Either way, he has to improve that aspect of his game to go to the next level, because imo he’s an excellent player and probably the 3rd best LW in the PL.

 

[GoldTrafford99]

To start off, I love Rashford as a player and as a person just like everyone else; we can all see that by my username and posts about him.

However, while his general decline in form can be put down to fatigue, which can simply be solved by a rest in the cup game, him being offside every 15 minutes in every game cannot. That is just pure ill-disciplined negligence in his running and laziness. Ole has to drum into him the importance of staying onside when running, because it simply breaks down our counter-attacks and somewhat negates one of our big strengths. It’s these small things which cost you games. I felt we played well yesterday but I’m also convinced that we would have scored if Rashford’s running wasn’t as awful as it was.

He has to improve that aspect of his game to go to the next level, because imo he’s an excellent player and probably the 3rd best LW in the PL.

Huh?

Rashford is offside often in games because Ole plays the risk of him being caught offside.

This is about as obvious as it gets.

Rashford plays- as he did yesterday - on the last shoulder of the defender, waiting to make a run in behind when our midfielders and two central defenders have possession.

He's gonna be offside a lot by playing that tactic. He's also gonna score a lot playing that tactic... which he has done ever since Ole came in. (The stats show the great improvement in Rashy under Ole versus under Mouirnho for example). United under Ole play for the counter-attack which relies on Rashy running in behind for a through ball... It is literally how we play. Playing like that will mean Rashy is called offside three times each game. Which is fine. Because he only doesn't have to be offside one or twice for him to be one on one with their keeper.

I agree... he looks a little fatigue and is certainly not 100% fit. But Liverpool were shit scared of him getting in behind them yesterday and without doing much on the ball he was a constant thorn in their side.

I mean to think being caught offside is purely the attacker's fault alone shows naivity in football understanding. There are loads of variables at play.

 

[Okey]

Is there really an offside conundrum? Pipo Inzaghi was born in the position and didn't have a bad career. It's being magnified because Rashford isn't doing the other things well at the moment - decision making and finishing. Even when he times the runs well, he's missing more than he scores. Start putting those away and we won't be complaining too much about the offside calls.

 

[Spaghetti]

Before yesterday the most he’d ever been offside in a game was 3 times.

I like that he’s making the runs and we’ve created a lot of chances and scored some important goals with this tactic. Maybe the problem was the balls coming too late - once you’ve started a run at pace, like the ones Rashford makes, it’s difficult to back out.

Liverpool got their tactics sorted to stop him by pushing out quickly and getting the ‘keeper to sweep. Most of them were fine margins and certainly one of them would have been overruled by VAR if he’d gone through to score.

As frustrating as it was when there were several in a row yesterday, I don’t see this as a big problem.

 

[cyberman]

Hes actually very good at making those runs. He has a stupid amount of 1 v 1s this season that he should have scored from.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Nonsensical hyperbolic shit thread, he is not offside every 15 minutes nearly every game, that is just some stupid hyperbole to describe yesterday's game. Yes, there were some offsides in yesterday's game that were his fault, other times it was the player playing the ball to him when it was clear the he was off and should have recycled the ball. Also, there was one time at least where the linesman called offside even though he was not, at least not in the replay.

Lastly, when the game plan is to play the ball in behind the defence, that will result in some offsides. Also, that issue went away pretty soon when he moved out wide, so could just be something he was told to do when he was playing up top.

 

[RashyForPM]

Are some of you totally blind? You don’t think he’s offside too often? He doesn’t time his runs well far too much ffs.

 

[Solius]

Are some of you totally blind? You don’t think he’s offside too often? He doesn’t time his runs well far too much ffs.

Sometimes he times them perfectly. It's a difficult art. Also sometimes the pass is played too late and he becomes offside through no fault of his own.

 

[Nick7]

there was nothing “wrong”. He tried to exploit the space behind and it didn’t come off. Some of the runs would have been onside but the pass was delayed a second, not much Rashford can do there.

It’s not like it happens every game, either.

 

[Deery]

Wouldn’t worry about it he’s just eager to get a goal, if it works he’s straight in on goal.

 

[ghaliboy]

I haven't been able to watch the last few games so this thread comes as a complete surprise, was he literally offside on every attack in all of our games?

 

[Solius]

I haven't been able to watch the last few games so this thread comes as a complete surprise, was he literally offside on every attack in all of our games?

Apparently so and we're all blind.

 

[Gavinb33]

Its a risk reward ploy, for it to work everything has to be correct not just the timing of the run by the forward but the the timing of the pass as well, yesterday it didn't work against West Ham it worked I'd imagine if you go back at least one of them wasn't offside but because it didn't lead to a goal it was checked by VAR but left to the on field call.

 

[Deery]

I haven't been able to watch the last few games so this thread comes as a complete surprise, was he literally offside on every attack in all of our games?

He does get caught offside quite a bit recently.

 

[Solius]

He timed one to absolute perfection yesterday as well but the ball from Pogba was too far ahead of him and Allison got there first.

 

[Johnson Yip]

Rashford's problems lied more on his decision making rather than the frequent offside.

 

[passing-wind]

Needless criticism

 

[Tom Cato]

Huh?

Rashford is offside often in games because Ole plays the risk of him being caught offside.

This is about as obvious as it gets.

Rashford plays- as he did yesterday - on the last shoulder of the defender, waiting to make a run in behind when our midfielders and two central defenders have possession.

He's gonna be offside a lot by playing that tactic. He's also gonna score a lot playing that tactic... which he has done ever since Ole came in. (The stats show the great improvement in Rashy under Ole versus under Mouirnho for example). United under Ole play for the counter-attack which relies on Rashy running in behind for a through ball... It is literally how we play. Playing like that will mean Rashy is called offside three times each game. Which is fine. Because he only doesn't have to be offside one or twice for him to be one on one with their keeper.

I agree... he looks a little fatigue and is certainly not 100% fit. But Liverpool were shit scared of him getting in behind them yesterday and without doing much on the ball he was a constant thorn in their side.

I mean to think being caught offside is purely the attacker's fault alone shows naivity in football understanding. There are loads of variables at play.

Unless it's an well executed offisde trap, it's generally the players responsibility to make sure he's on the line.

It's up to Rashford to make sure the timing is right. He plays a fine line so it's not reasonable to expect it to succeed every time. But the success and failure rests primarily on him when he puts himself in offside. Some offsides, yes, that is excusable. But when you get to the point where you expect the player to be in offside, that is generally too much.

Football isn't very complicated when you get to view it in hindsight and dissect everything from a birdseye perspective. For a player who'se profession it is to score goals, you can in fact expect fewer offsides than we saw yesterday, because that was a farce.

No one is, or should, take anything away from the fact that Rashford is a fantastic baller and has his share of the reason we are where we are this season, but yesterday was a very, very poor showing. And even for his poor showing he should have had an assist. That's why he remains on the pitch even when playing poorly.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It's not a connundrum. The forwards simply need to concentrate better to time their runs better.

 

[Solius]

It's not a connundrum. The forwards simply need to concentrate better to time their runs better.

It's not just a simple as that though is it. Yes of course there are offsides where the striker goes too early but it's not the only cause for it. Like I've mentioned further up, if the pass is too late then the striker is offside even though he likely timed his run well.

Vardy has the most offsides in the league. Does he also lack discipline? It's a consequence from how he plays.

 

[arnie_ni]

Hes that fast he shouldn't need to be offside

 

[Dante]

Last 6 games:

Liverpool - 5 offsides
Burnley - 0 offsides
Watford - 0 offsides
City - 2 offsides
Villa - 1 offsides
Wolves - 1 offsides

It was only really the Liverpool game. And just looking at them:

From Pogba at 9' - Pogba could have released it earlier. But, equally, Rashford could have anticipated the extra touches.

Bruno at 35' - Couldn't see on the TV clearly how far offside he was, but this one was probably Rashford's fault because the pass was one touch

Pogba at 39' - Good pass by Pogba, probably wrong to be given offside

AWB at 40' - AWB delayed the pass unnecessarily

Pogba at 84' - Just a bit unlucky

Sure, Rashford could have done better. But this is what happens sometimes when you try to play close to the edge.

Rashford's job was to stretch the play and force Liverpool's high backline back by about 5 or 10 yards. And you know what? He achieved it. 4 of the 5 offsides happened in the first half. Klopp visibly dropped his defensive line back to stop the threat.

 

[11101]

Or, we need to stop dawdling on passes. There was one yesterday where Wan Bissaka took 5 or 6 touches before releasing the ball, and that's not Rashford's fault when he gets caught offside. Other players are equally guilty. You should need one touch to control, maybe a second touch to get the ball out of your feet, then pass it. It's not entirely down to the players either, some of it is coaching. Our players should know if they receive the ball in a certain situation their first move should be to look for Rashford.

It's not entirely Rashford's fault is what I'm saying. He needs to be right on the edge of offside, one because it stretches defenders, and two because while he is fast he's not so fast he can just sprint away from every defender. It all reminds me of this video.

 

[RashyForPM]

Unless it's an well executed offisde trap, it's generally the players responsibility to make sure he's on the line.

It's up to Rashford to make sure the timing is right. He plays a fine line so it's not reasonable to expect it to succeed every time. But the success and failure rests primarily on him when he puts himself in offside.

Football isn't very complicated when you get to view it in hindsight and dissect everything from a birdseye perspective. For a player who'se profession it is to score goals, you can in fact expect fewer offsides than we saw yesterday, because that was a farce.

No one is, or should, take anything away from the fact that Rashford is a fantastic baller and has his share of the reason we are where we are this season, but yesterday was a very, very poor showing. And even for his poor showing he should have had an assist. That's why he remains on the pitch even when playing poorly.

This is exactly what I’m saying. He’s a top player but is caught offside too often. I’ve just had a look at the stats, and guess what, he’s been the player caught offside second most this season, with 18, 1 less than Vardy.

So yes, there is an offside problem with Rashy. No idea how people are blind to this. People say he has bad decision-making, so does making poorly timed runs not constitute to bad decision-making? Other players tasked with getting in behind like him, such as Mane, Salah, Martial, Werner, Aubameyang, Sterling and many others not getting caught offside anywhere near as much.

 

[cyril C]

Huh?

Rashford is offside often in games because Ole plays the risk of him being caught offside.

This is about as obvious as it gets.

Rashford plays- as he did yesterday - on the last shoulder of the defender, waiting to make a run in behind when our midfielders and two central defenders have possession.

He's gonna be offside a lot by playing that tactic. He's also gonna score a lot playing that tactic... which he has done ever since Ole came in. (The stats show the great improvement in Rashy under Ole versus under Mouirnho for example). United under Ole play for the counter-attack which relies on Rashy running in behind for a through ball... It is literally how we play. Playing like that will mean Rashy is called offside three times each game. Which is fine. Because he only doesn't have to be offside one or twice for him to be one on one with their keeper.

I agree... he looks a little fatigue and is certainly not 100% fit. But Liverpool were shit scared of him getting in behind them yesterday and without doing much on the ball he was a constant thorn in their side.

I mean to think being caught offside is purely the attacker's fault alone shows naivity in football understanding. There are loads of variables at play.

I agree Rashford was offside often but he did get 2 may be 3 very good chance on the counter, and he only need 2-3 chances to create something, if he was capable. Last night he mis-handled 2 runs in 2nd half alone, may be due to poor 1st touch, or good defensive play, or poor decision making. Fatigue might be 1 of the cause.

 

[Chief123]

To start off, I love Rashford as a player and as a person just like everyone else; we can all see that by my username and posts about him.

However, while his general decline in form can be put down to fatigue, which can simply be solved by a rest in the cup game, him being offside every 15 minutes in every game cannot. That is just pure ill-disciplined negligence in his running and laziness. Ole has to drum into him the importance of staying onside when running, because it simply breaks down our counter-attacks and somewhat negates one of our big strengths. It’s these small things which cost you games. I felt we played well yesterday but I’m also convinced that we would have scored if Rashford’s running wasn’t as awful as it was. Maybe he shouldn’t be playing upfront.

Either way, he has to improve that aspect of his game to go to the next level, because imo he’s an excellent player and probably the 3rd best LW in the PL.

He’s actually not as offside as you may think. Neville mentioned it in commentary yesterday when he got caught offside 4 times in the first half and said it was more times he’s been caught offside than ever before in a single game. So before that the maximum times was 3 in a game. His average would be significantly less than that. So it’s a bit of a myth.

Yesterday was a clear plan by Liverpool like it is every time they play, to play a high line and catch people off.

 

[Oranges038]

If he was constantly being caught offside in easy situations you could say this, but he's mainly caught out with runs in behind. Yesterday Liverpool's defenders were stepping up a lot to catch him out, so he had 4 yesterday. The linesman is still waiting to put up his flag for a couple, could be up to 6 or 7 by the end of the week.

70 offsides in 160 PL games.

18 in 18 games this season.

It's a massive problem alright.

 

[Rood]

To start off, I love Rashford as a player and as a person just like everyone else; we can all see that by my username and posts about him.

However, while his general decline in form can be put down to fatigue, which can simply be solved by a rest in the cup game, him being offside every 15 minutes in every game cannot. That is just pure ill-disciplined negligence in his running and laziness. Ole has to drum into him the importance of staying onside when running, because it simply breaks down our counter-attacks and somewhat negates one of our big strengths. It’s these small things which cost you games. I felt we played well yesterday but I’m also convinced that we would have scored if Rashford’s running wasn’t as awful as it was. Maybe he shouldn’t be playing upfront.

Either way, he has to improve that aspect of his game to go to the next level, because imo he’s an excellent player and probably the 3rd best LW in the PL.

I actually made this exact point on the podcast just last week as it had started to frustrate me a bit - its not totally on Marcus though, both Bruno and Pogba were off with their through balls last night (an awful 60% passing accuracy for both of them)

There was also at least 1 times that he was given offside yesterday and VAR showed it was the wrong call but it was a poor through ball anyway - in general I think VAR makes this kind of play more difficult, in the past the attacker would often get away with being slightly ahead but not anymore

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

He was offside a lot yesterday. But, to be fair, Liverpool's high line is very good and very disciplined. probably the best in the league at keeping together and not taking a precautionary step backwards even when someone as quick as Rashford is looking to get in behind. There was a free kick where we had about 4 offside when the ball was played because our attack made runs and they didn't react. It was annoyingly impressive.

There was one which he was flagged offside for, but from the replay, if he'd have scored from it, I'm certain VAR would have allowed it, as he looked very much level, if not slightly behind.

There was also a couple of chances where we dawdled on the ball, took 2 or 3 extra touches before playing the through ball, which is going to give the defence time to see the danger and step up.

It's not all on Rashford. Some of his runs were timed very well but the pass was overhit. Others he was in a good position ready to run behind, and those extra touches meant he had to either stop his momentum or gamble that he's onside, and in some cases he wasn't, which is normal for a centre forward. I'd say the bigger problem is not being decisive enough in possession. It needs to be 1 or 2 touch, not 5 or 6.

 

[ForeverRed1]

It is becoming so glaringly obvious, especially after the Liverpool game that I’m sure ole and the coaches will highlight this and work on this with him more. He also has Cavani to learn from, probably one of the best regarding his timing and movement? It’s a fairly easy thing to work on, it’s just about being aware and timing your runs better, I’m confident he can improve on that, he is still pretty young and learning

What is way more frustrating about rashford, is the fact he could set up a lot more goals than he does. He could make better decisions for the good of the team, instead of wanting to be the hero and score goals for personal glory.

He could literally be the assist king of the league, with his pace and directness, he also has a great pass in him, as shown in the pogba goal against Burnley. I’d love him to focus on that more than doing the big bold things (which in fairness do come off from time to time) but we’re talking about winning a league here. Top goal scorer and making the headlines don’t come into play! We have to be a team and score goals at all costs, city are now starting to fire up and we have to do the same, making amateur decisions won’t match them at this point.

 

[Champ]

If the right ball is laid into him at the right time he stays onside.
He times his runs correctly yesterday, just the ball wasn't played through early enough.
Henry was the master of breaking the offside trap with arched runs and such, he used to be offside a lot, but it's worth it for that one chance you get when everything is perfectly timed.
I say keep making the runs, as they show willing and attacking intent.

 

[Crackers]

Rashford's problems lied more on his decision making rather than the frequent offside.

This is the root cause. Being offside is symptom, but he it's his decision making which is the problem.
I'm worried he relies on his athleticism which means he hampers his development. He exploded onto the scene, but has become rather predictable.

 

[charlenefan]

Our midfielders hold onto the ball too long, it's only Bruno who releases it early. If the likes of Pogba and Fred released the ball earlier Rashford wouldn't be offside nearly as much as he is

But then from Rashfords part he obviously needs to work on staying onside to compensate for the above

 

[Poborsky's hair]

He timed one to absolute perfection yesterday as well but the ball from Pogba was too far ahead of him and Allison got there first.

Exactly, one of the runs was called offside when he was onside, but no needed to go for VAR when Allison was out of his cage. I more wonder if DDG would go out and clear the danger like the brazilian. Perhaps we know the answer..

 

[Berbasbullet]

Last 6 games:

Liverpool - 5 offsides
Burnley - 0 offsides
Watford - 0 offsides
City - 2 offsides
Villa - 1 offsides
Wolves - 1 offsides

It was only really the Liverpool game. And just looking at them:

From Pogba at 9' - Pogba could have released it earlier. But, equally, Rashford could have anticipated the extra touches.

Bruno at 35' - Couldn't see on the TV clearly how far offside he was, but this one was probably Rashford's fault because the pass was one touch

Pogba at 39' - Good pass by Pogba, probably wrong to be given offside

AWB at 40' - AWB delayed the pass unnecessarily

Pogba at 84' - Just a bit unlucky

Sure, Rashford could have done better. But this is what happens sometimes when you try to play close to the edge.

Rashford's job was to stretch the play and force Liverpool's high backline back by about 5 or 10 yards. And you know what? He achieved it. 4 of the 5 offsides happened in the first half. Klopp visibly dropped his defensive line back to stop the threat.

Thank you for your due diligence and excellent post! Well said.

 

[17Larsson]

It's definitely something he needs to improve on. He has enough pace that he can drop back a bit further if needed. Liverpool's high line was there to be exploited yesterday and it was frustrating that they couldn't make it work

 

[bsCallout]

I can't believe people are complaining about a player making the runs we've been crying out for, for years.

Sometimes he times it wrong, sometimes it is called wrong, often times the ball is released too slow.

Liverpool played a very high line with a compact team, that ball has to be released so quick for Rashford to make that run against them.

 

[Dan_F]

It’s just a symptom of playing that kind of football. If it was so easy to play a perfectly timed ball with a perfectly timed run, then all teams would play that way. Liverpool obviously play a very high line and press the ball carrier harder, so it means that it’s far easier to get it wrong.

I think we look for that ball too often, and it showed after Cavani came on that we didn’t need to go over the top constantly. As far as I can remember, our attacks came far more often from the ball being worked well on the floor.

 

[eire-red]

I think Ole nailed it in the post match interview. We don't need to play the ball every time Rashford makes a run. Our timing on the delivery of the final ball was really poor, and we were trying to play the killer pass way too quickly.

I think all the talk about Liverpool's weak defence and high line got to the players heads. It was like we thought we could cut them open with just one ball over the top for Rashford to run onto.

I think if Ole had his time back with hindsight he would have played Martial up front. At times we just needed to get the ball into feet and force the Liverpool back line to commit. Martial peeling off into space, linking up with Bruno and leaving that space for Rashford to make those out to in runs from the left. That's what has been so successful for us.

It was like by playing Rashford up front we thought we had to play it every time. We played much better when he moved to the left and we tried to work the ball through midfield. I think if you read between the lines on Ole's comments, he's admitting that we're not at the level required just yet because a top team would have picked their moments to open Liverpool up yesterday.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It's not just a simple as that though is it. Yes of course there are offsides where the striker goes too early but it's not the only cause for it. Like I've mentioned further up, if the pass is too late then the striker is offside even though he likely timed his run well.

Vardy has the most offsides in the league. Does he also lack discipline? It's a consequence from how he plays.

First, Yesterday the pass wasn't too late. Rashford was often too early.

Second. Who talked of discipline? Or moving too early being the ONLY cause of an offside? I personally referenced concentration because of yesterdat

. With better concentration the vast majority of the time a striker will be caught offside strictly because the ball is too late. Not repeatedly because he went too early Like happened with our first 7 offsides yesterday.

Observe Vardy carefully. It's very rare he moves too early. He is one of those forwards who times his last man run to near perfection. It's usually the ball to him played too late.


That is why I don't see any conundrum that was cited by the thread starting post. Rashford gets it right more often than not. It's Martial who tends to drift into unnecessary offsides, which is easily cured with better concentration.


I personally believe the two of them can get better at timing that kind of run.