You asked why they are so hated in Germany and I provided an explanation. Other countries are simply used to football clubs belonging to individuals or companies. The German football scene is more romantic/naïve in that regard and I wouldn’t want to have it any other way.
I normally enjoy your posts but your hatred towards Bayern is getting the better of you. It is whataboutism to argue about Bayern when the thread is about Leipzig and its standing in the German football/fan scene.
I can distinguish pretty well and have no business whatsoever admitting that Bayern is doing a brillant job again and deserve to win the treble this year. As a neutral, they're probably a role mod club. In fact I even named them a best practice in some of my posts in the last days. The only reason I used Bayern is because that AGM was the first incident that came to my mind. What I actually wanted to say: This idea that the fans are in charge is a nice concept but that's it. I've yet to see a football club really applying it. In every single club the sponsors/investors/important share holders have the say, not the fans. So I don't believe Leipzig having 17 members who all are RB employees is at the core of the antipathy against them becuase there's no club in Germany which is democratic at all.
No, that would be because they bought their way into the Bundesliga and are the PR vehicle of a company that pretends to do something great for Eastern Germany and its football fans.
Yeah I saw that, he is absolutely spot on with those comments.
I don't think too many care about the second part. It's about the "they bought their way into the Bundesliga" thing. And that ultimately comes down to "they ousted traditional clubs out of the Bundesliga". And that's the part I don't like at all. Support, fan base and tradition doesn't earn you your place in the first division. You have no right to play there because you have a huge fan base or exist since 100 years. It's sports, the one doing best deserves the spot. And Leipzig did best. Yes, they received a financial kick start. But they also did much, much better than all the clubs that have fallen from grace from a managerial standpoint. They built great infrastructure, hired incredibly competent coaching, scouting and managerial staff. Sure, that costs money, too. But honestly, traditional club's could've done the same if they would've been as radical with seeing through innovation as Leipzig has been.
Come on. You can't believe that yourself. Especially with all the conflicts between fans and their clubs in mind in recent years. Practically fans have no say in the Bundesliga. I can't even think of an example where fans changed anything at their club. Usually they watch hopelessly as their club taggers into irrelevancy when it's poorly managed.
That's very much a part of football, though - or, at least it has been for many years. My generation definitely tends to look more favourably on clubs with some history to their name over complete upstarts (who have emerged recently, fueled by money being pumped in by owners). Perhaps this is changing, though - I wouldn't be surprised. But my generation will - by default - prefer Hamburg over RB Leipzig. We remember Happel, etc.
That's exactly what I think. There are no "innocent clubs" that need protection. Traditional clubs achieved they status they have/had by losing this innocence. I understand if you prefer them out of nostalgia and I understand that it's nice having football as an oasis where you can live out such feelings since they have not much room in everyday life but honestly, despising a club because it has no history is beyond that, IMO. You can say you prefer club A for subjective reasons since you've grown up with them but giving your assessment the semblance of objectivity when it's really not equals moving the goal posts. The HSV isn't good and Leipzig isn't bad, the one club is just better at doing business. Which is unfortunate for the fans of the HSV but after all professional sports is a business and not a popularity vote. Leipzig and Hamburg are both where they are because they deserve it.
E.g. Hannovers fans ended Kind's pursuit to take over the club. At Schalke organized fans did their best to keep Tönnies in check by drumming up opposition to his reelection, in particular when it came to his desire to sell off portions of the club to cover for the mismanagement he oversaw. They ended the club's partnership with viagogo, too.
Ich bin einig (im Großen und Ganzen).
At least half of the topics you mentioned have nothing to do with voting and 50+1, though. Fans are important stakeholders since they're the direct and indirect revenue source. That gives them a certain bargaining power. But the membership and elections.. don't know, at least I can't recall a single important election in a Bundesliga club and I'm following the league closely since 2001. That's exemplarily different to Barcelona and Real Madrid where the presidential elections are turning points in the club's strategic direction - and even there the elections are quite a farce. To me that's just the illusion of a right to a say.
E.g.
Oh I'm a big believer in democracy as long as the system is valid. See that Bayern example I gave, that's just the illusion of a voice. Public pressure, voter suppression - that's maybe what Trump would call a democracy
Yes, and his development at Stuttgart was awful due to the club being run incompetently as hell. He'd have gone down the drains had he stayed there.
He wouldn't have stayed at Stuttgart anyway because they were relegated, but he could and most probably would have become the player he is now at another club, too. You're only always talking about mismanaged clubs like HSV or Schalke, but it's not only them that they've stolen a place in the Bundesliga or as others have mentioned in the CL. There are lots of other clubs that are managed very well in the first, second and third division that simply can't buy a players like Werner for 15 million € when they are promoted, that can't pay the wages for a Danish international while playing in the third division, that can't pay for high class managers like Rangnick or top-scouts and that don't have other franchise clubs where you can develop young players. So it's not only fecking over mismanaged clubs like HSV, but all the other clubs that have to EARN the money they want to spend.
Please read the whole thread. It is not about the arguments you just presented.
A really great argument considering it's basically Bayern and Dortmund fans who utter the criticism in this thread.
Every (proper) club holds a member's meeting every year, among the professional clubs alone that's several dozen per year. You're still trying to use one example from one club to discredit them all. And even at that meeting you're talking about one member used his right to adress the leadership to really lay into Hoeneß with a 10 minute speech, to the applause of the present club members. Presenting and bringing nation wide mainstream media attention to a criticism that Sky&co would never have dared to utter.Oh I'm a big believer in democracy as long as the system is valid. See that Bayern example I gave, that's just the illusion of a voice. Public pressure, voter suppression - that's maybe what Trump would call a democracy
But I give you that, this is a good example. However, I still don't see that this has such an impact - especially in the way some clubs handle it - that it explains the grudge people hold against Leipzig.
But you don't know that. Werner himself chose Leipzig because he thought it was the best place to develop for him. You can't just say 'he would've developed everywhere'. Leipzig deserves credit for him turning into a top player the same way Dortmund deserves it for Sancho and Barcelona for Messi - even though they were god enough to make it everywhere. There's a reason so many young talents choose Leipzig, Leverkusen and Hoffenheim as their employers. It's the same reason why talents can't wait to jump ship at Schalke and Hamburg.
Of course, there's always a possibility that sth could have gone wrong, but he was hardly an unknown and unproven player. He had already played a lot of games in the Bundesliga for Stuttgart before he made the move, so the comparison to Sancho is simply wrong.
You already named two of them, you could add easily add Freiburg and in the last few years Frankfurt to that. There are also many clubs in the 2. Bundesliga that are run very professionally. The whole point why they are less successful is money. Neither do these clubs have the money to splash 8m € on a single player in the 2. Bundesliga nor do they have the money to pay guys like Rangnick or the whole scouting system RB created with several feeder clubs to develop players.
No, that's the whole point. They absolutely have not earned it. They fecking cheated to get the spot.
1.You completely disregarded his point that Werner himself made the decision to join Leipzig.
Why would I need to talk about this? At no point in time did I argue that players are forced to join these plastic clubs. Obviously you could argue that money (wages) is a big factor there, too, but I never said that players aren't allowed to develop there, so what's your point? In my first post I just found the notion kind of ridiculous that Werner was developed at RB when he had nearly a hundred Bundesliga games for Stuttgart before he made the move. If we apply this criteria, Kimmich seems to be a Bayern product, because he only had 53 games at RB, but ~150 for Bayern (he's also a Stuttgart product like Werner btw). It's also weird to claim this as a positive for RB because there have always been real clubs that were/are great at developing talent and have been successful like Bremen, Gladbach, Dortmund, Stuttgart or Schalke (if you don't want to talk about smaller teams that have done this for decades). True, some of them fecked up at some point and suffer the consequences and that is the way it is supposed to be. Others like Dortmund and Gladbach do very well. It's a myth that players can only develop at such a construct, even if it might be somewhat easier for young coaches and players as there is less pressure because there are no fans and thus far less media attention.
What you're arguing is basically that they know how to use their money and I never claimed otherwise. I just claimed that it's unfair towards real clubs that have to earn their money and suffer if something goes wrong. If someone doesn't work out at RB, RB doesn't have to give a feck about the millions they lose. The notion that they are in the first Bundesliga because they kind of earned it is ridiculous. Just take a look at the transfer records of the second Bundesliga and imagine they wages they have to offer to get these players. In addition to that RBL can also get the best RBS players for next to nothing (doesn't matter anyway because it's the same company). Of course, I wouldn't expect a Chelsea fan to understand this.
Well, the team I support didn't have any negative consequences due to RB so far and I doubt that they ever will, so I'm not bitter, just very worried that we're going the same route as your league has gone. Unfortunately we're on our way to follow the footsteps of American leagues and the EPL (show elements, higher ticket prices etc) anyway and only fan protests have prevented it going on further or at least slowed down this transformation for now. I'm afraid proper club officials also want this transformation, too, because that way they can earn more money and stay competetive in Europe, but they also can't alienate the fans completely because they still have some power at a lot of clubs. At plastic clubs not so much.
Short, Simple, Crisp and Sweet. No fancy psychological autopsies
Thanks for reposting as I don't usually read the match day threads and would have missed this insight. Great stuff @Adnan.
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Him and Ralf Rangnick are friends and he's got connections there so it could happen!
It's cute how you act like there's a difference what manager they get.Please no.
I rate Tuchel so hopefully Leipzig goes for Rose.
Thanks, you are cute, too.
