Real Madrid and Barcelona

GatoLoco

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How are Madrid even broke with that small a debt? Ours is absolutely enormous and we're signing players for big money.

Seems to me that their troubles are inflated and we may soon see them go ballistic in the market once again like they did in 2009.
I think Florentino was speaking about football clubs in general being in trouble as one of the factors to justify the SuperLeague.

I also think he will sign Mbappe at the end of August and that the French player is the reason he's been saving his money for 4 years out of the last 5.
 
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How are Madrid even broke with that small a debt? Ours is absolutely enormous and we're signing players for big money.

Seems to me that their troubles are inflated and we may soon see them go ballistic in the market once again like they did in 2009.
I have no idea. I think they refinanced, so it’s possible next year or year after the debt might be higher then what they just released. But you’re right based on that current figure the financial crisis people were talking about a month ago doesn’t make sense.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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I think that is an excessively positive assessment of Perez's recent years.

We had 30 first teamers at the start of the transfer window. Flo is ruthlessly clearing out the excess players.
These players did not materialize out of thin air. He signed them. This is a problem of his own making. A quick count tells me that the squad currently includes Vallejo, Ceballos, Odriozola, Mariano, and Jovic, all fairly recent signings who've flopped. The squad also includes Isco and Marcelo, who can't contribute anything anymore and who can't really be moved, and Bale, who they have not been able to move.
The most high-profile departures from the squad have been Sergio Ramos and Raphael Varane, who are not 'excess' players in any way, shape, or form.

have saleable assets (talented/low wages)
Real Madrid have a bunch of players they can't move because they have high wages relative to their capabilities. Bale, Mariano, Isco, Jovic, Marcelo... Hazard, even. In fact the squad is full of people the club doesn't even want. Half of the 'saleable assets' are the players the club should not sell under any circumstances because then the squad will start looking quite terrible.

We have a squad that came 2nd in the league/CL semis with a coach who had mentally checked out in the last 3 months (team was on auto-pilot)
I don't even know what to say about this. It's completely made-up nonsense.
 

Dave Smith

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Why do people keep clubbing Real Madrid and Barca together, when it comes to financial mismanagement?
Flo Perez has been absolutely brilliant in his second term as President ... His first job is to make sure Madrid are a solvent concern and then to win trophies.

I'm using approximate numbers here but in the last 3 years, despite a E150 mil drop in revenues due to Covid, Madrid have maintained an EBITDA of E180 million ... that is brilliant! Currently we have E120 mil of cash on hand excluding the E40-50 mil from the Varane sale.

In terms of Debt:
  1. Non-stadium Debt of E160 mil: This is mainly working capital debt (virtually every company on the planet has this). Typically secured against assets like player contracts/gate receipts/infrastructure. If Madrid were to dissolve tomorrow - our cash in hand and player sales would easily cover this many times over. This does not affect our operations as working capital debt is constantly renewed (typically is never really paid off by a going concern, and interest rates are low to encourage borrowing). This has no impact on us.
  2. Stadium Debt of E575 mil: This is NOT a mortgage and the stadium is not used as collateral. I have no idea how Flo Perez negotiated this but this is brilliant for Madrid. I dont believe any player contracts have been used to secure this debt because banks want actual 'infrastructure' as collateral for an infra project - not a contract which may lose its value (player becomes poor). As long as we can pay a fixed E29.5 mil every year beginning 2023, for 25 years, we are set! Nothing is certain in life but is Madrid ever not going to be able to afford a fixed E29.5 mil payment? The new stadium is expected to bring an additional E50-150 mil in revenues depending on who you ask.
We had 30 first teamers at the start of the transfer window. Flo is ruthlessly clearing out the excess players and has informed the board not to expect any major outlay this season. Exactly the tough decisions that a real leader makes.

Financially: we are guaranteed CL, have long term contracts with sponsors, have saleable assets (talented/low wages) and expect to regain sales as lockdowns are eased.

Team-wise: We have a squad that came 2nd in the league/CL semis with a coach who had mentally checked out in the last 3 months (team was on auto-pilot), both main center-backs were perpetually injured, Hazard/Bale were a non-entity and the team was young: Vinicius/Rodrygo/Militao/Chust/Arribas/Blanco/Gutierrez all acquitted themselves well under pressure.
Let's be Real, there are a number of land/infustructure projects that Real have done down the years that have been heavily in Real's favour. This is just another.

As for Real long term there are a few problems on the horizon:

1) La Liga rights are probably going to take a hit as CR7 and Messi (in the next few years) won't be running the show and the league isn't as competitive as England, Germany (below Bayern) and France.

2) Real don't have many peak players they can actually sell for decent money. Hazard, Alaba, Benzema Bale, Modric, Kroos etc el are all aging out together so they're all sunk costs. Those players also generate a bit of revenue as well and Real are a few years without CR7 money. They're probably going to have to buy to get some stars, but that is always tricky. Next one or two need to be hits, as they cannot afford another Hazard.

3) Real projections on the stadium revenue is just that, projections, at the moment. That needs to be realised before it can be banked.

4) Real previously have had beneficial tax breaks that have been closed down. Thus, past performance is not as indicative as it usually was/is.

That said, you're right, Real is nowhere near the trouble Barca is in. However, they have a quite a few questions over the next 2-4 years. What they cannot afford to do is stand still because if they continue at the level of the past two years (for those 2-4 years) then their income will either flatline or decline.
 

dinostar77

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Perez's entire strategy for the XI on the pitch seems to be based around securing Mbappe either this summer or more likely next.

If i were Mbappe i wouldnt go near Madrid for a few season, there an end to a cycle there and alot of the young talent they have bought are unproven over the course of a campaign especially as regular starters.

But what do i know, next summer Perez could have signed Mbappe and Pogba on free transfers and convinced Haaland to go there as well.
 

GatoLoco

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Latest news is Odegaard might be sold to Arsenal too. That's not very encouraging imo as I was expecting him to finally settle down at the club after Zidane's departure.

If you ask me the squad looks mediocre at the moment. Even though I like Alaba a lot and Militao looked very good last season, losing your two starting CBs in just one summer seems a risky move to say the least.

Most youngsters are unproven indeed, although it must be noted Ancelotti seems to work well with them. I really don't know what Perez has in mind apart from signing Mbappe, but if nobody else comes apart from him I cannot say I would be too surprised.
 

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and the league isn't as competitive as England, Germany (below Bayern) and France.
As much as I dislike the Spanish league, its certainly more competitive than France (PSG won 7 of the last 10 and just played fantasy football transfers again) or Germany (you can't just ignore the team that won 9 of the last 10 seasons and then call it competitive).
 

crossy1686

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Perez's entire strategy for the XI on the pitch seems to be based around securing Mbappe either this summer or more likely next.

If i were Mbappe i wouldnt go near Madrid for a few season, there an end to a cycle there and alot of the young talent they have bought are unproven over the course of a campaign especially as regular starters.

But what do i know, next summer Perez could have signed Mbappe and Pogba on free transfers and convinced Haaland to go there as well.
I think you're underestimating the ego of someone who's being offered to have the team built around them at one of the biggest clubs in the world.

Real Madrid will be on their arse for a couple of years but they'll be back. They're too big of a draw for players.
 

GatoLoco

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Vinicius/Rodrygo/Militao/Chust/Arribas/Blanco/Gutierrez all acquitted themselves well under pressure.
Out of those names:

Militao was excellent.
Rodrygo and Vinicius did not prove to be Real Madrid quality.
Miguel Gutierrez looked very good for a player his age but the jury is still out.
Blanco and Arribas barely played.
Chust played even less.
 

Camara

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I think Florentino is overrated too.

When he got in this second stint he had already Ronaldo, Benzema, Ramos, Pepe, Marcelo, Casillas, basically a big core of the CL great team.
He added important players of course like Modric, Kroos, Di Maria, Bale and Casemiro, but it begs question on who Real Madrid with their money would buy anyway.
The Casemiro deal was actually terrible, they bought him cheap them loaned him to Porto for 5 M€ for a season and gave Porto a buyout option preference. In the end of the season Real Madrid wanted him so they had to pay Porto 15 M€ to break the preference, basically he spent 10 M€ to buy a player of his own club :lol:

He dismissed some players that were performing very well like Ozil and Di Maria for no obvious reason.
He let Ronaldo go, which can be understandable especially after breaking his word to give him a bigger contract, but then didn't get any noteworthy replacement.
Meanwhile we have current Real that is a shadow of the former CL hegemon team and he has left the squad in the mud.
 

cyberman

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I think you're underestimating the ego of someone who's being offered to have the team built around them at one of the biggest clubs in the world.

Real Madrid will be on their arse for a couple of years but they'll be back. They're too big of a draw for players.
He is being offered that at PSG and he is leaving because he feels they aren't competitive enough to win the CL. Madrid is worse than that.
Its all propaganda, he won't join Madrid in its current state
 

crossy1686

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He is being offered that at PSG and he is leaving because he feels they aren't competitive enough to win the CL. Madrid is worse than that.
Its all propaganda, he won't join Madrid in its current state
True but no one respects the French league. The fact that no one wants to go there, even big names don't really fancy PSG anymore unless they're not wanted anywhere else, says everything about football as a bubble. Footballers love the status and he knows he'll get way more respect from his peers and pundits, and even this place if he was banging goals in for Madrid.
 

GatoLoco

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He is being offered that at PSG and he is leaving because he feels they aren't competitive enough to win the CL. Madrid is worse than that.
Its all propaganda, he won't join Madrid in its current state
Well, Madrid were far less competitive than Manchester United in 2009 and see what happened.

In fact they could not even go past the round of 16 back then.
 

cyberman

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Well, Madrid were far less competitive than Manchester United in 2009 and see what happened.

In fact they could not even go past the round of 16 back then.
And Ronaldo wasted 2 or 3 years of his career in an uncompetitive team. He also left one of the best teams in Europe after winning it all to take on the challenge under promises of big investment etc. That isnt where Mbappe is at.
Meanwhile you are dead broke, having to sell players to even get a player on a free which means if you get him you cant even build around him.
In 2009 you signed Ronaldo from Utd. In 2021 you sold one of the best defenders in the world to us for 40m.
The cycle has changed.
 

crossy1686

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And Ronaldo wasted 2 or 3 years of his career in an uncompetitive team. He also left one of the best teams in Europe after winning it all to take on the challenge under promises of big investment etc. That isnt where Mbappe is at.
Meanwhile you are dead broke, having to sell players to even get a player on a free which means if you get him you cant even build around him.
In 2009 yoi signed Ronaldo from Utd. In 2021 you sold one of the best defenders in the world to us for 40m.
The cycle has changed.
And then he won 5 CL's...

I'm sure he wasn't that bothered about the 2 years after that. Madrid won't lie down forever, they never do. In 3 years they'll be competitive again, or maybe slightly longer. The landscape has changed now, they can't splash the cash like they used to but they'll find a way to get credit with the Spanish banks again. They always find a way.
 

cyberman

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And then he won 5 CL's...

I'm sure he wasn't that bothered about the 2 years after that. Madrid won't lie down forever, they never do. In 3 years they'll be competitive again, or maybe slightly longer. The landscape has changed now, they can't splash the cash like they used to but they'll find a way to get credit with the Spanish banks again. They always find a way.
But he left Utd a few seasons too early. He left arguably another CL and Balon Dor on the table and if you think Ronaldo doesn't csre about that then you haven't read up on him.
If Madrid could find a way, they would have found a way by now. Look at the stste of them
 

GatoLoco

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He also left one of the best teams in Europe after winning it all to take on the challenge under promises of big investment etc. That isnt where Mbappe is at.
True, but Mbappe sees a destination club with 4 more Champions Leagues than Ronaldo did. That also has an influence.

Meanwhile you are dead broke,
No, the correct phrasing would be "I believe you are dead broke". :D

I mean, you are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts. :D

having to sell players to even get a player on a free which means if you get him you cant even build around him.
So it turns out Florentino has been selling players to sign Alaba on a free (only because you say so, again see above about opinions and facts), but then you also say that Madrid might get Mbappe, which does not make sense, because if the sales were made only to get Alaba, how would Madrid be in a position to get a 180 million euros player?

No offense, but my impression is that you collect ideas we normally see in RedCafe from here and there, but then you put them all together even if they don't mix up too well.

In 2009 you signed Ronaldo from Utd. In 2021 you sold one of the best defenders in the world to us for 40m.
And what does that have to do with what Mbappe, PSG and Madrid might decide to do in one month time?

The cycle has changed.
I could agree here to a big extent, but that does not necessarily imply all you have said previously is true, does it?
 

Iker Quesadillas

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I think Florentino is overrated too. When he got in this second stint he had already Ronaldo, Benzema, Ramos, Pepe, Marcelo, Casillas, basically a big core of the CL great team.
Perez signed Ronaldo, Benzema, and Ramos. Casillas was only at Real Madrid for the 10th CL; you should know that, since he was at Porto for the other three wins.

Perez signed most of the players who won those CLs, which shouldn't be surprising, he's been Real Madrid president all but three years out of the last twenty.
 

fps

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But he left Utd a few seasons too early. He left arguably another CL and Balon Dor on the table and if you think Ronaldo doesn't csre about that then you haven't read up on him.
If Madrid could find a way, they would have found a way by now. Look at the stste of them
Left United early? Nonsense. You make the mistake of believing everything else stays the same if Ronaldo doesn’t move for a bit.
He always wanted to play for Madrid, if anything the fact they hadn’t won’t much for a while was more appealing as their success would confirm his greatness. Additionally, he knew the project would be built around him and the players would come because he was THAT good, and would have THAT much of an influence on the club.
 

cyberman

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Left United early? Nonsense. You make the mistake of believing everything else stays the same if Ronaldo doesn’t move for a bit.
He always wanted to play for Madrid, if anything the fact they hadn’t won’t much for a while was more appealing as their success would confirm his greatness. Additionally, he knew the project would be built around him and the players would come because he was THAT good, and would have THAT much of an influence on the club.
He left one of the best sides in Europe to join a side he was too good for. Literally left a side that dominated Europe for 2 years.
He certainly did leave titles on the table
 

Dave Smith

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As much as I dislike the Spanish league, its certainly more competitive than France (PSG won 7 of the last 10 and just played fantasy football transfers again) or Germany (you can't just ignore the team that won 9 of the last 10 seasons and then call it competitive).
Not really, underneath the Super Club in France and Germany (PSG/Bayern) the leagues are quite equal. I mean in Germany Schalke, Bermen and Hamburg in in Div 2, whilst they have different teams qualifying for Europe a lot. IN France, they also have different teams qualifying and then they have different winners when PSG don't win it.

Spain doesn't have such a mixture. Additionally, they also have their TV revenue model, which further cements the standings.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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A few months ago a Spanish team won the EL, making them the third Spanish team to win it in the last decade. 2 Spanish teams have won the CL and 1 has reached multiple finals. Looks like a mixture to me.
 

Calidad

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Barca currently look more of a mess - certainly financially, but they have a good core of younger players: Ansu, Pedri, De Jong; dareisay Dembele are all top tier talents.

But they’re hampered by having a lot of overpaid players, and I don’t think Depay or Aguero were shrewd moves.

I’m not sure if Madrid have the same. I don’t think Rodrygo or Vinicius have shown much as yet. And their established stars are largely on the way down, although Benzema admittedly still looks excellent.

I don’t think losing Varane is a disaster; he had to a degree plateaued at Madrid. So a new start for him might suit both player and club alike. Will need a big step up from Militao, however, and I think he is capable.

Interesting season ahead for both
 

Kentonio

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Spain doesn't have such a mixture. Additionally, they also have their TV revenue model, which further cements the standings.
100% agree on the TV revenue system which is obscene, but they have 3 teams regularly fighting it out (Atletico have 2 titles and were runners up twice in the last 10 years).

As for the other european qualifying slots those seem to rotate a lot between the other clubs. I just had a quick look back over the previous 5 seasons and there's a LOT of different Spanish clubs appearing in the EL.
 

fps

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He left one of the best sides in Europe to join a side he was too good for. Literally left a side that dominated Europe for 2 years.
He certainly did leave titles on the table
He left United a season later than he wanted to. Among a series of competing priorities, getting to Madrid and playing for them was the top one.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Because of ZZ's laissez faire approach to tactics, discipline and meritocracy, Madrid would regularly fall out of the league by January and come 2nd in CL group stages.
Zidane managed Real Madrid four full seasons. He won it two of those seasons, and RM were competing for it until the final matchday last season. That's three out of four seasons, which leaves one season for them to have 'fallen out by January.' So according to you, 'regularly' means 'happened once.' OK.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of the post. You're just making up things that anyone with even the slighest familiarity about the subject can spot a mile away.
 

GatoLoco

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Because of ZZ's laissez faire approach to tactics, discipline and meritocracy, Madrid would regularly fall out of the league by January and come 2nd in CL group stages.
This is not what happened though, was it?

2015/16 -> Zidane signs for Madrid in January 2016, he finishes in second position, one point behind the leaders, having gotten more points than anyone else during his time.
2016/17 -> He wins the league.
2017/18 -> Only season when something like what you describe happened
2018/19 -> Gets back to the club in March 2019 but his team has nothing to play for after Lopetegui and Solari runs.
2019/20 -> He wins the league.
2020/21 -> He competes in the league until the very last game.

So Real Madrid under Zidane only fell out of the league by January once.
 

cyberman

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He left United a season later than he wanted to. Among a series of competing priorities, getting to Madrid and playing for them was the top one.
Yes the season after winning the CL.

He said, "After we won the European Cup [Champions League], I began to think that there was nothing left for me to achieve in Manchester.

"I realised that when you achieve everything, it is time to seek a new challenge. I stayed another year and enjoyed it.

That isn't Mbappe and Ronaldo staying to reach another CL final is proof he would have lost out on another CL winning chance if he did move in 08. Its not as if we would be worse in 2011 with him in the side.
He went to Spain and got rammed by the best side ever season in, season out. He absolutely left so many titles, Balon Dors and CL winning opportunities on the table by moving there so early in his career.
 

stefan92

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Yes the season after winning the CL.

He said, "After we won the European Cup [Champions League], I began to think that there was nothing left for me to achieve in Manchester.

"I realised that when you achieve everything, it is time to seek a new challenge. I stayed another year and enjoyed it.

That isn't Mbappe and Ronaldo staying to reach another CL final is proof he would have lost out on another CL winning chance if he did move in 08. Its not as if we would be worse in 2011 with him in the side.
He went to Spain and got rammed by the best side ever season in, season out. He absolutely left so many titles, Balon Dors and CL winning opportunities on the table by moving there so early in his career.
Balon d'Or would have been the same if he had stayed at United, Messi was simply better. And he won the CL 4 times with Real in the end, it is improbable that he would have won more if he had stayed longer at a strong United but therefore delayed Real's development. League titles might be the only point I agree on, but it was not obvious that Barca would become that strong when he moved there
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Yeah I'm having a hard time understanding this argument. Ronaldo won more CLs at Real Madrid than United have won in their entire existence. He also won as many Balon D'Ors there as United players have won in the history of the club. It is not at all obvious that he "left" a bunch of CL and Balon D'Ors behind.
 

Hansi Fick

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No way Ronaldo would have won this number of Balon D'Ors over Messi hadn't he been at Real Madrid.

As for the number of CLs, bafflingly thing to say considering the number of CLs the two respective clubs, Real and Man United, won since Ronaldo's move.

But hey, we're dealing with pure agenda posters.
 

giorno

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He may have left 1 CL title on the table, but that's only because of the way it broke down in 2010

We were better than United from the first season we signed him. With him came Benzema, Xabi Alonso and Kaka, then Ozil, Di Maria and Carvalho(with peak Mourinho on the bench). He left a great United side to go form an even greater side in Madrid. At most he squandered one season
 

cyberman

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He may have left 1 CL title on the table, but that's only because of the way it broke down in 2010

We were better than United from the first season we signed him. With him came Benzema, Xabi Alonso and Kaka, then Ozil, Di Maria and Carvalho(with peak Mourinho on the bench). He left a great United side to go form an even greater side in Madrid. At most he squandered one season
You werent better than our 09 team and thats without being able to add to that side with Ronaldo which is why including the summer after isnt fair on that Utd team. Say theyre on par, then feck me why move to the one league that has a better team? He lost out on so many honours its unbelievable.
He left a Utd side that were breaking records in Europe for a side who wasnt there yet, its why the dregs of that side reached another CL final before you.
Hell even in 2010 that tournament was wide open for us after we sold Cristiano. We should have beat Bayern and the draw after that was piss easy. His first game in the Bernabeau should have been in a Utd shirt.
Has been Kaka, Ozil, that Di Maria and Carvalho wouldn't have got into our 09 side. Even Benzema falls behind that era Rooney.
That Utd side had a good 2 to 3 years left at the elite level. Leave then and walk into a Madrid side that was actually ready for him and he would have an unreal number of accolades
 

cyberman

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No way Ronaldo would have won this number of Balon D'Ors over Messi hadn't he been at Real Madrid.

As for the number of CLs, bafflingly thing to say considering the number of CLs the two respective clubs, Real and Man United, won since Ronaldo's move.

But hey, we're dealing with pure agenda posters.
This argument seems a bit too nuanced for you
 

Mogget

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You werent better than our 09 team and thats without being able to add to that side with Ronaldo which is why including the summer after isnt fair on that Utd team. Say theyre on par, then feck me why move to the one league that has a better team? He lost out on so many honours its unbelievable.
He left a Utd side that were breaking records in Europe for a side who wasnt there yet, its why the dregs of that side reached another CL final before you.
Hell even in 2010 that tournament was wide open for us after we sold Cristiano. We should have beat Bayern and the draw after that was piss easy. His first game in the Bernabeau should have been in a Utd shirt.
Has been Kaka, Ozil, that Di Maria and Carvalho wouldn't have got into our 09 side. Even Benzema falls behind that era Rooney.
That Utd side had a good 2 to 3 years left at the elite level. Leave then and walk into a Madrid side that was actually ready for him and he would have an unreal number of accolades
This might be difficult for you to get your head around, but it was pretty obvious at the time he would rather move to Madrid than win more honours with United

He seemed pretty keen to leave that summer.
 

stefan92

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You werent better than our 09 team and thats without being able to add to that side with Ronaldo which is why including the summer after isnt fair on that Utd team. Say theyre on par, then feck me why move to the one league that has a better team? He lost out on so many honours its unbelievable.
He left a Utd side that were breaking records in Europe for a side who wasnt there yet, its why the dregs of that side reached another CL final before you.
Hell even in 2010 that tournament was wide open for us after we sold Cristiano. We should have beat Bayern and the draw after that was piss easy. His first game in the Bernabeau should have been in a Utd shirt.
Has been Kaka, Ozil, that Di Maria and Carvalho wouldn't have got into our 09 side. Even Benzema falls behind that era Rooney.
That Utd side had a good 2 to 3 years left at the elite level. Leave then and walk into a Madrid side that was actually ready for him and he would have an unreal number of accolades
Oh were to start...

It's called ambition when you go and try to break the dominance of a great side and individual opponent. He had to rival Messi on the same ground to even have a chance to be considered better, otherwise due to the dominance of spanish football whatever he did in the PL would not have mattered.

Özil at the time would have walked into every team in the world, as he was the best playmaker. Sadly his peak was quite short but that does not change what he did at the time.

United had a chance to win the CL, but lost. That happens to all teams and is not a point for anything. Each year half a dozen teams could win it, United was one of them as well as Real.

Why you think United could have been the dominant force in Europe in a time where Barca evolved into their strongest is beyond me... Ronaldo alone would not have been the deciding difference.
 

cyberman

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This might be difficult for you to get your head around, but it was pretty obvious at the time he would rather move to Madrid than win more honours with United

He seemed pretty keen to leave that summer.
Thats not my point?...
 

cyberman

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Oh were to start...

It's called ambition when you go and try to break the dominance of a great side and individual opponent. He had to rival Messi on the same ground to even have a chance to be considered better, otherwise due to the dominance of spanish football whatever he did in the PL would not have mattered.

Özil at the time would have walked into every team in the world, as he was the best playmaker. Sadly his peak was quite short but that does not change what he did at the time.

United had a chance to win the CL, but lost. That happens to all teams and is not a point for anything. Each year half a dozen teams could win it, United was one of them as well as Real.

Why you think United could have been the dominant force in Europe in a time where Barca evolved into their strongest is beyond me... Ronaldo alone would not have been the deciding difference.
You see, its this type of lies that gets lost to time. Ronaldo didn't want to go and break the dominance of Barca, he wanted a move to Madrid in 08 thst was pre Pep and Barca were terrible at the time. He wa literally the reigning Balon Dor at the time. Messi was rivalling him
All my argument was is that he left to join a project that wasnt ready for him.
He literally left us after 1 European defeat in 2 years but ok.. Domination was put of our grasp with him in the side.
Just the 3 finals in 4 years.