RedCafe All-Time Top-30 | Wingers & wide midfielders | Results

[Synco]

Oh wow, have you seen any footage?

https://footballia.eu/matches/england-rest-of-the-world-friendly

This is the game, regrettably in enthusiast-only quality. But really fascinating when mustering up the necessary tolerance and concentration. Makes a bunch of 50s legends available for drafts in one go.

I'm intrigued. So Nordahl isn't a Shearer-esque bruiser of a striker?

He still is, but astonishingly he shows a lot more as well. His allround game in that game resembles Harry Kane more than a "classic" CF. Busy dropping deep and linking up, playing others on with forward passes, fine ball handling and passing technique.

Now, it's an exhibition game, so there's a chance he plays a bit more for the gallery than usual. But it seems obvious that he had this side to his game as well, which is impressive for someone who was also a physically imposing, volume scoring menace.

The good thing is that even with terrible picture quality and friendly character, these impressions can now be matched with highlight reels in better quality. If you consider this assist for example, the neat technical execution makes a lot of sense in light of the full game footage.

It's Ocwirk I'm more interested in, tbh. As he sounds like the stuff of legend and I'm curious to see how that actually pans out, but yeah, need more than a single game for that.

My takeaway from the exhibition game is actually the pragmatic aspect of his performance - his disciplined double-DM (halfback) display together with Cajkovski, who looks very good himself. Ocwirk's defensive game was so far more of a blank spot/question mark than his playmaking and attacking ability.

Ocwirk's more expansive, ball-dominant side can be seen in game summaries from the mid-50s. So for me it's again the combination of different sources that seems to give a decent idea of his allround style and range of abilities.

 

[Fortitude]

Cheers @Synco. Wonderfully worded, too!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Not sure if you just want to tease Sjor, but it's simply the oldie tax, I'd say. Many 50s greats will land lower than they likely should (Ocwirk and Nordahl, for example).

It's inevitable, but at the same time the amount of good work in here with match comps and in-depth discussions has still paid off, imo. Including for these rankings.

disagree, sometimes they get screwed with lack of footage and therefor get underrated but sometimes its the other way around.

regarding becks and finney, its simply moronic to compare them as one is streets above the other.

one competed at highest levels against other all time greats while other competed against....better not say.

one won stuff at highest level while being crucial/best player, other won feck all.

even if you break them in specific segments, finney is only a better dribbler while becks shits on him in everything else.

diffefent eras different times, sure. But there was a highest stage in any era and Finney wasnt apart of it in his therefor he has little to no case against someone like Becks.

who is too fault for him staying at preston whole career? dont really give a shit tbh, was it a lack of ambition, was he on good money or he did it for love of the club, in the end its not rellevant.
Take Verratti as example, unlike Finney he did it at highest level(CL, Euro) but because he is wasting his whole career in the lesser league his legacy will be much smaller/weaker.

Its biggest games with most pressure that give that extra to the player quality and Finney doesnt have that.

 

[Gio]

Not sure if you just want to tease Sjor, but it's simply the oldie tax, I'd say. Many 50s greats will land lower than they likely should (Ocwirk and Nordahl, for example).

It's inevitable, but at the same time the amount of good work in here with match comps and in-depth discussions has still paid off, imo. Including for these rankings.

Aye, it's just hard to place them.

one won stuff at highest level while being crucial/best player, other won feck all.

even if you break them in specific segments, finney is only a better dribbler while becks shits on him in everything else.

Applying modern expectations that players automatically move to the biggest clubs to the 1950s isn't a fair reflection of the game in that era. It was pretty clear that Finney was the best player in the country for most of the 1950s so it didn't really matter who he played for, even moreso given the limited European club competition at the time. He had that standing despite playing for Preston.

Comparing him to Becks, he was also a better goalscorer and was two-footed. Apples and oranges though - one is a wide midfielder, the other a wide forward. It's really difficult to rate him though - not enough footage and, as you say, probably not enough exposure to wider audiences. I remember having him once in a draft and selling him as the bee's knees, and then Pat I think it was, saying "well what's he done against top opposition?" and it was a fair point. In the absence of much evidence we can only guess.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Aye, it's just hard to place them.

Applying modern expectations that players automatically move to the biggest clubs to the 1950s isn't a fair reflection of the game in that era. It was pretty clear that Finney was the best player in the country for most of the 1950s so it didn't really matter who he played for, even moreso given the limited European club competition at the time. He had that standing despite playing for Preston.

Comparing him to Becks, he was also a better goalscorer and was two-footed. Apples and oranges though - one is a wide midfielder, the other a wide forward. It's really difficult to rate him though - not enough footage and, as you say, probably not enough exposure to wider audiences. I remember having him once in a draft and selling him as the bee's knees, and then Pat I think it was, saying "well what's he done against top opposition?" and it was a fair point. In the absence of much evidence we can only guess.

did you closely followed english first division in the 50s to make that statrment?
Joking aside, obviously i rate Finney as well, have him in an around top 10 of all time which IMO is a great praise but lack of big high pressure games, duels against other greats for me its impossible to put him in the truly elite tier where Beckham sits.

 

[Synco]

disagree, sometimes they get screwed with lack of footage and therefor get underrated but sometimes its the other way around.

True, the uncertainty can go both ways.

In the absence of much evidence we can only guess.

Yeah, I think the best we can do is seeking some consensus on a credible "working version" of a player. Which can get revised when new evidence pops up. But that's also the fun part of including historic players for me.

In the end such speculation isn't entirely different from the still existing draft uncertainty with much more familiar footballers. We as a group can't even agree on the "draft value" of well-known players like Van Dijk or Scholes. It's all about using images anyway.

Cheers @Synco. Wonderfully worded, too!

Thanks, obviously to be taken with the appropriate pinch of salt. But that 1953 match was a real step forward, imo.

 

[Jim Beam]

One was a plumber, the other was a model. I will go with a plumber.