RedCafe has become toxic as feck.

No Love

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Great post and I agree. Particular in player performance and Ole out threads it turns easily into people not listening. Or just going with attacks due to our last poor game. I feel like people just ignore opposite views a lot or attacks the poster at worst. I often get too negative after defeats, but I normally listen to other views and I am open to change my mind. With Ole is has been a rollercoaster and I am not fully sure what I think we should do right now.
Thanks, man. We’ve all been there. We’ve all been guilty of knee jerk reactions, on occasion.

You bring an interesting area to prominence that I did not mention in my initial post, and that is the perpetual Ole in/Ole out debate. The problem here, is that people feel obligated to pick a side. Even by the very nature of the presentation of the question: in or out. Of course, the third option is often neglected, despite being the most readily available option in most walks of life, and that is to say, ‘I don’t know’. There’s a huge misconception in society at the moment that suggests it’s unacceptable to admit you don’t know the answer to something. Naturally, it finds its way here, too. It’s okay to admit that you don’t know if Ole should stay or go, and frankly, if you aren’t privy to all of the information/circumstances or haven’t taken the necessary steps to form an educated opinion, then it’s likely the most apt answer to give. Again, people feel obligated to give an answer one way or another and then feel they’ve nailed their colours to the mast and have to live by it. That becomes their hill to die on. Typically, this process ends in the kind divisive and abrasive posts I touched on previously. Another fine example of this is the Pogba thread, but that’s another story for another time.

I guess my point is that it’s okay to be unsure. There’s an excellent word that I enjoy: liminal. I wish more people would use this word, especially around these parts. I think if people kept this word in mind when posting, it would prevent them matter of factly staying an opinion that leans heavily towards one polar, and subsequently acting outraged when people disagree.

Anyway, that’s enough of me on my soapbox. I’m in danger of hijacking the thread with these lengthy posts!
 

Turnip

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If we find the form we had at the end of last season people will cheer up and it will stop. I think the Cafe is a little more level headed than most online football related hang outs, but we've had a fairly rotten start to the season and transfer window, which is bound to make most of us a bit bitter and over react a little.
 

NecssryEvil

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I am sure Ole is better than the start indicate. Although I don't think he is enough to go for titles beyond maybe a lucky league or Fa cup win.
So for that reason I think we should look for a manager at the next level. When we pull the trigger is hard to know. Panic now might not gain us anything if he still has the players with him.
If he has lost the players then maybe it would be best to fire him right now.
To loop this back to the topic on hand, this post is not the kind of post that is being discussed as making this place toxic (as far as I am concerned). I can read this and work out a response because you have put down what you think without any hyperbole. If this was the type of posts disgruntled fans or someone venting put out more often then I could live with it. The posts that make this place so toxic are the "Ole sucks and will never get another job above the 4th level from anyone else ever". "X player is absolute shyte and we should dump". HTF can I respond to that, there is nothing there to discuss?

BTW, you are wrong about Ole, period.

haha - kidding... just trying to keep the mood light.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Thanks, man. We’ve all been there. We’ve all been guilty of knee jerk reactions, on occasion.

You bring an interesting area to prominence that I did not mention in my initial post, and that is the perpetual Ole in/Ole out debate. The problem here, is that people feel obligated to pick a side. Even by the very nature of the presentation of the question: in or out. Of course, the third option is often neglected, despite being the most readily available option in most walks of life, and that is to say, ‘I don’t know’. There’s a huge misconception in society at the moment that suggests it’s unacceptable to admit you don’t know the answer to something. Naturally, it finds its way here, too. It’s okay to admit that you don’t know if Ole should stay or go, and frankly, if you aren’t privy to all of the information/circumstances or haven’t taken the necessary steps to form an educated opinion, then it’s likely the most apt answer to give. Again, people feel obligated to give an answer one way or another and then feel they’ve nailed their colours to the mast and have to live by it. That becomes their hill to die on. Typically, this process ends in the kind divisive and abrasive posts I touched on previously. Another fine example of this is the Pogba thread, but that’s another story for another time.

I guess my point is that it’s okay to be unsure. There’s an excellent word that I enjoy: liminal. I wish more people would use this word, especially around these parts. I think if people kept this word in mind when posting, it would prevent them matter of factly staying an opinion that leans heavily towards one polar, and subsequently acting outraged when people disagree.

Anyway, that’s enough of me on my soapbox. I’m in danger of hijacking the thread with these lengthy posts!
Don't fear toxic people and keep posting! I am sure people enjoy reading like I do. I think we should try to be accepting for anger after games and missed transfers, but hopefully now during an international break people should cool down a bit.
I think the next few days might be slightly better here. Although a poor result vs Newcastle and things will turn really bad I fear. I personally feel fairly relaxed today. Yesterday I was still angry and upset.
 

Tel074

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A lot of the toxicity just originates from a sect of our fans having a cult like devotion to whoever our manager is. This was there under Moyes, Van Gaal and especially under Mourinho too.

Whenever the cult leader is under any type of pressure, the sect will burn down the entire club to deflect attention away from him.
It's the complete opposite it's the constant manager out posts by the usual idiots . Most have never been to a game in their lives and don't really understand what being a United fan is all about . Us match going fans support our manager because we know what's above them and we realise it will continue to happen .
The toxicity comes from these people who can't cope with anyone daring to support our manager and not just Ole .

Supporting your manager in my eyes isn't toxic
 

Paul_Scholes18

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It's the complete opposite it's the constant manager out posts by the usual idiots . Most have never been to a game in their lives and don't really understand what being a United fan is all about . Us match going fans support our manager because we know what's above them and we realise it will continue to happen .
The toxicity comes from these people who can't cope with anyone daring to support our manager and not just Ole .

Supporting your manager in my eyes isn't toxic
I think few of us know what is going on behind the scenes. Thus it might be hard to know who to blame.
The manager and CEO/owners gets the blame though because they hire people to do the job.
Ultimatly it is the Glaziers that do not seem to want to sort out the problems well.
They stick with Woodward, Judge and our board. Even though it is clearly not working well.
 

Ramshock

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Everything online to do with football and especially United is toxic as feck. I saw some Indian Liverpool "fans" calling for Klopps head the other day after the Villa match. I mean how the feck do you deal with arseholes like that? Im sick of defending players and managers on here becuase moaning bastards like to moan and make everyone elses lives more miserable.
 

JPB

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What do you expect? Our beloved club is rotting away and fading into mediocrity. And all we can do is watch. People are frustrated and we can't do nothing about it. That's why people come on here and vent.
 

Tel074

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I think few of us know what is going on behind the scenes. Thus it might be hard to know who to blame.
The manager and CEO/owners gets the blame though because they hire people to do the job.
Ultimatly it is the Glaziers that do not seem to want to sort out the problems well.
They stick with Woodward, Judge and our board. Even though it is clearly not working well.

I completely agree and in some ways I feel sorry for them because maybe they actually want a DOF but the parasites won't allow them one .
Every problem at the club comes right back to the owners . From the state of the stadium to our managers budgets and possibly to Woodward and Judge .
 

Leethal

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This is a discussion forum. It's not a support forum where everyone comes to give each other hand-jobs while singing United's praises when things aren't so rosy.

Could you imagine how fecking boring this place would be, if everyone was always so positive about everything and circle-jerked about how amazing we are, when in reality, right now, we're not?

People are extremely frustrated at the direction of the club, and come here to vent with others like minded or to debate with people on opposing sides of the fence. Because like I said in my opening sentence, this is a discussion forum. For discussing shit.
 

ghagua

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Maybe we should look at ourselves and ask if we are contributing to the 'toxicity' that we are complaining about by not accepting that there will always be a wide range of opinions.

I wish I could rep you for this!

What do people expect with the team the way it is and how it is being managed? Fans are supporting the club with attendance and merchandise. If fans want to blow steam on a fan forum, they should be allowed to.
 

Gazza

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This place will never be a Top Reds place and thanks feck for that. This place will never ever have a RAWK-level of delusion. People used to moan while SAF was in charge and some of that moaning was quite on spot even then, imo. You do not like a forum, ignore it. You do not like a thread, ignore it. You do not like a poster, ignore him/her. For me it is the best football forum out there, the best platform on the planet to discuss Manchester United.
This.
 

dasty

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It's just how a fan forum is. Things are going badly for us now and naturally people are a lot more negative. I do hope that mods will take some time to clean up some threads though as they tend to get too toxic before any action is taken, although that is a big ask as this is a big forum.

I just find it absurd that how willing are people on here resort to abuse. Criticizing is good, but abusing? Sometimes even before the player had even played a single minute for us. Look at the amount of abuse thrown in the Cavani and Telles transfer threads. Even before we signed Bruno he was constantly abused and berated in the transfer threads. Most of the time by people who haven't even watched a single minute of them playing bar some Youtube videos.

Let's not even talk too much about our current players. Almost every player performance thread is filled to the brim with abuse. Yet whenever a player complains about abuses from online fans, these same people are quick to call out the Twitter fans while absolving themselves of any fault.
 

Tincanalley

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It's the complete opposite it's the constant manager out posts by the usual idiots . Most have never been to a game in their lives and don't really understand what being a United fan is all about . Us match going fans support our manager because we know what's above them and we realise it will continue to happen .
The toxicity comes from these people who can't cope with anyone daring to support our manager and not just Ole .

Supporting your manager in my eyes isn't toxic
Good post, on my opinion
 

Tincanalley

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@OP
So you’d much rather have a board that only allows posts outlining how amazing the Glazer ownership has been, how wonderful Ed has been, and how spectacular Olé’s management has been with complete disregard of the actual state of affairs?
You’d have to visit “Redcafe for children” in that case.
Redcafe for leeches, maybe.
 

Tincanalley

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Unbelievable. You are the same poster who posted the thread about our fan base being toxic on Sunday because they dare to asl for sacking:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/for-all-the-ole-iners.457941/

3 days later and you post another thread about exactly the same thing. 2 threads about exactly the same thing in 3 days. Fecking hell.

Just leave the forum.
Agreed. A pro Glazer agenda thinly disguised as a “support Ole” or “support the club” one. One way they play the game is to foster disunity among the fans/support
 

Tincanalley

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No one insults the fans of opposite opinions more than the top reds who think they know the right way of supporting the club and everyone else is spoilt.

I can bring many examples, just the OP who claims he's riding the moral high grounds have posted an exactly similar thread after Sunday saying our fanbase is a joke and fickle.



Here're several of his other old posts :



https://www.redcafe.net/threads/tra...-before-posting.447057/page-640#post-24441838



https://www.redcafe.net/threads/tra...-before-posting.447057/page-893#post-24524532








https://www.redcafe.net/threads/tra...-before-posting.447057/page-895#post-24524780



So far this is just the result of a quick search. I can bring plenty more of his posts which all revolve around only one thing : Our fanbase is toxic, entitled and spoilt.

He has probably posted about nothing in this forum bar moaning about the moaning here.

But then he has the nerve to post yet another thread saying the fanbase is toxic, 3 days after posting a similar thread on Sunday.
Very interesting- well done for digging. Clear as day what Sofas’s agenda is, toxic my ass.
 

Bilbo

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What do you expect? Our beloved club is rotting away and fading into mediocrity. And all we can do is watch. People are frustrated and we can't do nothing about it. That's why people come on here and vent.
'Rotting away and fading into mediocrity'

Really?
 

TMDaines

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The best thing you can do on RedCafe is employ liberal use of the ignore function. Not for people who you disagree with, but for those who have nothing to add but everything to say, and for those who are flat out abusive.

Edit: spelling
 
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tombombadil

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It's the complete opposite it's the constant manager out posts by the usual idiots . Most have never been to a game in their lives and don't really understand what being a United fan is all about . Us match going fans support our manager because we know what's above them and we realise it will continue to happen .
The toxicity comes from these people who can't cope with anyone daring to support our manager and not just Ole .

Supporting your manager in my eyes isn't toxic
I totally agree. Especially when he has been a loyal servant to the club and is struggling to maintain some positive atmosphere around the club and give some confidence to the players.

The source of all our problems lies upstairs. If anyone wants to be toxic, they should point it at Ed/Matt/Glazers.
 

Fosu-Mens

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I totally agree. Especially when he has been a loyal servant to the club and is struggling to maintain some positive atmosphere around the club and give some confidence to the players.

The source of all our problems lies upstairs. If anyone wants to be toxic, they should point it at Ed/Matt/Glazers.
Nothing wrong with supporting the manager if one thinks that he deserves it or is the right man for the job.

One can also have the viewpoint that the Glazers are the fundamental problem but also be of the opinion that OGS has not shown any signs of being competent enough besides his man management (which he is actually fairly good at as it seems).

The problem is how there is no acceptence or interest or attempt in understanding of other viewpoints. It is not "Can you elaborate why you think OGS is the right/wrong man for the job". It is "You think OGS is the right/wrong man for the job, you narrowminded/shallow fan."

My personal opinion is that almost everything is wrong with the club, not including some of the younger players and how the academy operates, and the further we fall, the closer we are to becoming unprofitable/the Glazers willing to sell to get maximum value. IF relegation/or somewhere along this line is needed, then so be it.
 

passing-wind

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Think this is such a pointless post the OP would have a point if he was inciting abuse being vocalised online and disrespectful notions but people predicting when Solskjaer could potentially be sacked ? :lol:. I remember during the finals years of SAF fans calling for his head (especially after the Barcelona UCL final), that's just part of the game.

I don't know how idealists would possibly cope with football during the Premier leagues inception; fans stabbing one another, heavy police presence during fixtures, violence after games, the times when racism was far less muted these are the typical examples of what constitutes a toxic fan. I actually think the threads have been somewhat constrained.

In our opening few fixtures to the season we've loss more games than we've won what do you expect people to do have empathy for the managers / players when they influence the results ?
 

mav_9me

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Not sure why Redcafe in general is so upset. Everything is fine. We are still in the Premier League. We will definitely be in top 6 I think. Fans are just so spoilt. Expect to win titles every year.
 

devips

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It'a not the criticism per se that is hurting this forum, but the naive abuse. Redcafe should find a way to create a separate venting outlet for the children and teen-agers (mentally) in this forum.
 

Robbie Boy

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Don't fear toxic people and keep posting! I am sure people enjoy reading like I do. I think we should try to be accepting for anger after games and missed transfers, but hopefully now during an international break people should cool down a bit.
I think the next few days might be slightly better here. Although a poor result vs Newcastle and things will turn really bad I fear. I personally feel fairly relaxed today. Yesterday I was still angry and upset.
Good post.
 

tombombadil

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Nothing wrong with supporting the manager if one thinks that he deserves it or is the right man for the job.

One can also have the viewpoint that the Glazers are the fundamental problem but also be of the opinion that OGS has not shown any signs of being competent enough besides his man management (which he is actually fairly good at as it seems).

The problem is how there is no acceptence or interest or attempt in understanding of other viewpoints. It is not "Can you elaborate why you think OGS is the right/wrong man for the job". It is "You think OGS is the right/wrong man for the job, you narrowminded/shallow fan."

My personal opinion is that almost everything is wrong with the club, not including some of the younger players and how the academy operates, and the further we fall, the closer we are to becoming unprofitable/the Glazers willing to sell to get maximum value. IF relegation/or somewhere along this line is needed, then so be it.
It's all well and fine to have opinions and debate about things. But some of the posts are just vile personal attacks. I hope you get my point. Ole is not the enemy here. He might succeed or he might fail. I don't know which way it will end up. But surely a loyal servant of the club doesn't deserve that kind of abuse?

We see people complaining about how toxic Mourinho was for complaining about the transfers and then now we see people insulting Ole as a bootlicker for not complaining about the transfers. There is no winning this at all.
 

glazed

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But I have seen far too many posts lately that are being abusive to our own manager, abusive to our own players, abusive to the owners, abusive to the CEO it's just disgusting to see.
I totally agree with you about abusing players. That's completely unacceptable beyond a certain good humoured point. They earn a lot but they are mostly not in control of their situations

The manager, the CEO, the owners are complicit in the destruction of the club for their own gain, and as such are completely fair game. I would go further and say fans have a duty to attack them in every legal way possible if they care about the future of the club. The simpleton's mantra of getting behind your club doesn't work in this situation.
 

simplyared

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It's a forum we're talking about ffs. We have mods too keep a check on anything abusive, meaningless, over the limit etc. A place to put your views forward. Nobody forces posters to go on here. So what's the problem???
 

Chesterlestreet

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The best thing you can do on RedCafe is employ liberal use of the ignore function. Not for people who you disagree with, but for use who have nothing to add but everything to say, and for those who are flat out abusive.
Believe it or not, I have never put anyone on ignore during my time on the Caf.

Don't know why, actually - I suppose it's become a (silly) matter of principle of sorts.

But recently I have been very tempted. Just seems to be more posters around who contribute absolutely nothing worth reading (at least not in the threads I tend to frequent).
 

KiD MoYeS

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I know I was a lot more frustrated and angry the days after the Tottenham game than I am now. People are angry and pissed off with the state of the club and not as if they can vent in the stadium or down the pub with their mates.

I'm actually tired of the negativity now, it hasn't really died down unfortunately. I know the club have a massive issue with the Glazers but it is not all bad. Hopefully we can get back to winning ways against Newcastle, I think this season will be full of mad results. We're only a point behind City, and there doesn't appear to be as nearly much panic over there. I also think we have a gem in Diallo so look forward to having him in January.

Anyway, I think we can expect fan frustration to be expressed in all it's toxicity on social media and this forum this season. The world is a frustrated place right now, people are stressed. I've had people lose their head with me in work, I don't take it personally, this is a mad world we're currently living in.

Love United, hate Glazers.
 

Fosu-Mens

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It's all well and fine to have opinions and debate about things. But some of the posts are just vile personal attacks. I hope you get my point. Ole is not the enemy here. He might succeed or he might fail. I don't know which way it will end up. But surely a loyal servant of the club doesn't deserve that kind of abuse?

We see people complaining about how toxic Mourinho was for complaining about the transfers and then now we see people insulting Ole as a bootlicker for not complaining about the transfers. There is no winning this at all.
Difference between personal attacks and constructive criticism yes. Still, should have some tolerance for unconstructive criticism towards the club/players/manager in a 24-48 hours period after the game against Tottenham.
 

Hammerfell

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The mindless Ole in at all costs brigade are far more irritating than those complaining about him.
 

Robbie Boy

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The mindless Ole in at all costs brigade are far more irritating than those complaining about him.
I find some of them to be overly condescending and abusive.

I don't agree with vile posts filled with hatred about the manager/players. There's a huge difference between posting constructive criticism and posting a hate filled rant. The problem is that constructive criticism is often met with smart arse responses and can toe the line in relation to the 'criticise the post, not the poster' rule. Unfortunately some have mastered this dark art and get away with it time-and-again.

There's no need for warring factions. This isn't like the end under Jose when things had turned toxic. Ole can be debated in a constructive manner, it's really not hard. For me, the ones who pretend he's flawless and can do no wrong are really adding to the toxicity with their attitudes towards posters who want him out.
 

SadlerMUFC

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The thing that bothers me is how many muppets there are that just repeat things that influencers with agendas like Mark Goldbridge says. Think for yourself people. The worst of it is the abuse on Maguire. Like it or not he is our best defender. He also didn't set his price tag so stop treating him like he did, and he didn't assign himself the captain, the manager did. Blame him for things he's in control of. Has he been good so far this season? No he hasn't. Has any of our defenders been good this season? Not even close. But that doesn't change the fact that Maguire is our best defender, and it really isn't even close. People asking for Bailly and Lindeloff to start have no idea what they are talking about. And now I see a post asking for McTominay to take his place? WTF? Compare Maguire to his peers, not to his price tag. If you do, you will quickly realize that he is more comparable to VVD than he is to Lindeloff...

------------------Tckl----Blk---Int--Clr---HdClr----Rec---DW---DL---50/50---ABW---ABL
Maguire-------37------6-----72---157---94-------237--240--128---8---------176-----71
Virgil VD-----23------5------40--162----83------220----239--81----3---------191------60
Lindeloff----29------1------26---122---58------215----135--78----4----------96-------50

Legend: Tckl=Tackles, Blk=Blocks, Int=Interceptions, Clr=Clearances, HdClr=Headed Clearances, Rec=Recoveries, DW=Duals Won, DL=Duals Lost, ABW=Arial Battles Won, ABL=Arial Battles Lost

https://www.premierleague.com/players/9566/Harry-Maguire/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5140/Virgil-van-Dijk/stats?co=1&se=274
https://www.premierleague.com/players/5066/Victor-Lindelöf/stats?co=1&se=274
 

jungledrums

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It'a not the criticism per se that is hurting this forum, but the naive abuse. Redcafe should find a way to create a separate venting outlet for the children and teen-agers (mentally) in this forum.
Indeed. Reasoned criticism can never be a bad thing, but the sensible posts on here often get drowned out by the screaming children. People can hold whatever view they want, so as long as they conduct themselves with some decorum.

It’s all rather tiring seeing the toxicity on the caf attributed directly to certain camps (like the Ole in/Ole out/Pogba out brigade, to name but a few). For the love of god, it’s not about any one position, it’s about how the position is articulated. You could argue for the abolition of slavery, but if you scream and swear and cry like a lunatic, you’re lowering the tone of the place.
 

AbusementPark

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I see people complaining about wanting to strip maguire of his captaincy and it being a disgrace to want it.

Hes been at the club for one season and was made instant captain. He showed no back bone or fight for his players during the spurs game. He showed have led from the front and backed his teammates up. Lamela deserved a red as well and if the man United captain won't argue that point when its a blatant provocation on one of his team mates then he doesn't deserve the armband.

On to Ole now, didn't have the guts to remove Pogba, ddg or Maguire from the team at half time and instead removed Bruno. If Jose was United manager he wouldn't have hesitated in removing players in trouble. I'm not advocating for Jose to be manager but highlighting the fact any manager would have removed the weak links at the earliest opportunity.
 

witchtrials

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Not too sure where to put this, but I enjoyed coming to this place over the years and only lately have started to post more.

But I have seen far too many posts lately that are being abusive to our own manager, abusive to our own players, abusive to the owners, abusive to the CEO it's just disgusting to see.

Plenty of Ole Out threads that come up time and time again, 'predicting the date of when Ole gets the sack', "next man utd manager xx/xx" - I hate to see it because those type of threads are just full of the typical toxic football fan.

"Predict the date Ole gets the sack" What the fcuk?!

Our club has become divided and this isn't the place nor is it the time to discuss those matters, which have contributed to it.

But I'm fed up of seeing people attributed to our club get personal abuse and disgusting takes thrown their way.

Just now the Maguire one, where someone is calling for a new captain at the club. Calling Maguire all the names under the sun over a 30 second clip of him calming Rashford down, accepting the ref's decision and getting the players to get back into the game again. (Again not the time to discuss it, go to the thread) - 30 seconds! They're basing his whole captaincy on 1 30 second clip. What's he gonna do shout and scream at the ref and get booked himself?

The toxicity has skyrocketed since not getting Sancho and people are slating every single player we have bought this summer. Yet we haven't even seen them play yet.

RedCafe is in danger of becoming a toxic place to be for Man Utd fans and we need to get back to how it used to be. A fun place to discuss, everything Man Utd related.
Half strongly agree, half totally disagree.

I can't stand the level of loathing plenty of posters seem to have for our players and manager. Just utter contempt for them just because they're struggling to win enough matches.

On the other hand, supporting the team has nothing at all to do with supporting the CEO(!) or supporting the owners in their efforts to milk the club.