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[harms]

If this theory is true, then this could mean that Pele was playing at an absolute GOAT level only from 1958 to 1965.

Pretty much, Pelé from the 1970 was incredible, but he was less mobile and many actually wrote him off already before the tournament.

Of course he was still a beast later on his carreer as he was able to adapt his game and become more of a playmaker (which explains his insane chance creation number) but not on the same level as peak Messi/Maradona. And this would make Messi the guy with the longest longevity at the GOAT level, which is a solid argument for him when it comes to make a ranking like this one.

But Messi also isn't playing at a GOAT level for quite some time now and had to adapt his game to cover for his newly-found weaknesses. The last GOAT (and I mean in a literal sense of the world, as a season that can be considered to be the best ever) season was probably the treble-winning one under Enrique, even though he had quite a few seasons after that when he was still the best player in the world.

The winning bias is a thing, of course — be it Higuain/Messi, Robben/Sneijder, Rensenbrink etc., but Messi still haven't produced anything close to either 1958 or 1970 (he was good in 2014, but not Golden Ball-good). I don't care about the numbers at this point tbf, the eye-test makes it pretty clear. Messi could've been luckier and win a World Cup, but it would still be something akin to Cristiano's Euros — sure, it's a bragging point, but it doesn't put you on the same level as the likes of Cruyff/Pelé/Maradona for World Cup performances or Platini for European ones.

I'm mostly disappointed that he failed to win Copa America when he was absolutely tearing it apart — I think it was the Centenario one from 2016. He was untouchable that year, playing very much like the peak club-form Messi. That performance deserved a trophy.

 

[Earvin Johnson]

But Messi also isn't playing at a GOAT level for quite some time now and had to adapt his game to cover for his newly-found weaknesses. The last GOAT (and I mean in a literal sense of the world, as a season that can be considered to be the best ever) season was probably the treble-winning one under Enrique, even though he had quite a few seasons after that when he was still the best player in the world.

I have to disagree with this, i would have understood if you said that he slowed down these last 2 years but saying that 2015-2019 Messi didn't play at a GOAT level is wrong. There is no aspect of his game where he regressed, some of his best performances of his carreer come from that period. If anything he improved as a playmaker and got even more complete and versatile. The 2018 and 2019 Liga titles were big carry jobs by him.
He plays further away from the goal to compensate the lack of creativity in the midfield which leads to less quality shots, but he still maintained himself as the best scorer in Europe taking 3 consecutive golden boots. (And thats while taking more shots outside the box than inside the box its absolutely insane).

As someone who watches him play on a weekly basis there was no significant regression from 2015 to 2019, i feel that you correlated the fact that Barça doesnt win anymore in Europe with the fact that Messi is not playing on his 2015 level, but Barça's problems were never about scoring goals, it was always about defense, which he has no control over.

Messi up until 2019 was still playing at an absolute GOAT level, 2015 was his peak because Barça was more dominant, so he was getting better chances, the defense was solid and he could focus more on creating for his teammates and less on progressing the ball. These last two years he was less consistent but since the start of the 2021 calendar year he is back at his absolute best, (although with slightly less pace) so to me he is still playing on a level close to his peak.

The winning bias is a thing, of course — be it Higuain/Messi, Robben/Sneijder, Rensenbrink etc., but Messi still haven't produced anything close to either 1958 or 1970 (he was good in 2014, but not Golden Ball-good). I don't care about the numbers at this point tbf, the eye-test makes it pretty clear. Messi could've been luckier and win a World Cup, but it would still be something akin to Cristiano's Euros — sure, it's a bragging point, but it doesn't put you on the same level as the likes of Cruyff/Pelé/Maradona for World Cup performances or Platini for European ones.

But by saying this you ignore the context, with Barça Messi played on a level that is comparable or even superior to either 1958 or 1970. If we have to compare Messi and Pelé we should do it when both of them had a dominant supporting cast around them. It is not a given that Pelé was more dominant with Santos than he was with Brazil (His average opposition with Santos was definitely weaker than the teams he was facing with Brazil though). On a team where he was the sole creative force, Messi still pulled numbers comparable to Pelés best world cup performance, but you can only go so far when your supporting cast is failing you. It is unfair to judge Messi on the 2014 Argentina team, especially when you consider that he created 7 out of the 8 goals in that tournament, if not for him they couldn't score to save their lives. If your offensive game plan relies all on one player, as good as he is, the first solid defensive team that you will play will be able to simply overcrowd his side and nullify his impact.

About Numbers, they are merely a reflection of the eye test, and sometimes they tell us things that the eye test simply misses, so i consider them very valuable.

And you cannot compare Messi 2014 to Ronaldo 2016, Messi was the best player in that tournament bar James, and that is considering again that Argentina were a very poor offensive team, as i said 7 out of their 8 goals scored came from him.

And there is a chart made by Opta comparing Messi 2014 with Cruyff 1974 Diego 1986 and Pele 1970, you might want to check it out you might be surprised to see how close those performances are.

I'm mostly disappointed that he failed to win Copa America when he was absolutely tearing it apart — I think it was the Centenario one from 2016. He was untouchable that year, playing very much like the peak club-form Messi. That performance deserved a trophy.

He was shredding it because for once, Argentina had a decent midfield, but they got completely anihilated by Chili's high press, they still got their fair share of opportunities but bottled them as always.
There is a telling photo of that game with Messi surrounded by 9 Chilean players without any help it's quite telling.

This is why i don't like winning bias, it just removes every nuance from the analysis. If we want to compare Messi and Pelé we have to judge their football abilities, not team success which is defined by contingency.

So the discussion i want to have is to compare both player's passing, dribbling and scoring abilities, because that's what matters. Of course their performance is going to be inferior when they play with a poor team rathern than with a dominant team.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Ultimately isn't "winning bias" necessary at some level for these sort of lists if you're going for a broad ranking criteria? It's simply the nature of the issues with ranking individual players from different era in a team sport, especially when it's players on an obviously similar level. You need tie-breakers and team accomplishments usually serve as that.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I like Earvin, if i had to pick a goat id go with messi but saying messi of last few years is still playing at goat level is bonkers given he walks for 90% of the games....its also disrespectful towards peak version.

 

[Gio]

And you cannot compare Messi 2014 to Ronaldo 2016, Messi was the best player in that tournament bar James, and that is considering again that Argentina were a very poor offensive team, as i said 7 out of their 8 goals scored came from him.

And there is a chart made by Opta comparing Messi 2014 with Cruyff 1974 Diego 1986 and Pele 1970, you might want to check it out you might be surprised to see how close those performances are.

Agree that Messi’s 2014 World Cup was better than Cristiano’s Euros in 2016. But in terms of ball parks it was a long way away from the handful of great World Cup performances and somewhere down in a (still historically respectable) third tier for me. For example in a second tier I’d have the likes of Eusebio in 1966 or Baggio in 1994 and a few others of that ilk. Someone like Baggio (or Maradona in 82/86/90) had a similar challenge in singularly carrying the creative burden for their country. But while Messi struggled to make any impact on the quarter finals, semi finals and final, plenty others grew into those tournaments and their performances shifted up through the gears as the games got bigger. That’s the main difference for me, well before we get into the discussion of stats and trophies.

 

[Earvin Johnson]

Ultimately isn't "winning bias" necessary at some level for these sort of lists if you're going for a broad ranking criteria? It's simply the nature of the issues with ranking individual players from different era in a team sport, especially when it's players on an obviously similar level. You need tie-breakers and team accomplishments usually serve as that.

You have a point when you say that when it comes to make lists like these, winning bias will definitely invite itself. But i see it more as a defect than a feature in these types of ranking. Especially when you have to rank so many players, while not being familiar with a lot of them. But its not an insurmountable obstacle to overcome. If we share enough knowledge and information on the player we discuss, we will be able to judge them more fairly, but stopping at "X didn't win Y" or "X won less than Z" hurts the debate.

I like Earvin, if i had to pick a goat id go with messi but saying messi of last few years is still playing at goat level is bonkers given he walks for 90% of the games....its also disrespectful towards peak version.

I don't know by what you mean by last few years, but i specified that Messi Post 2019 is not on his GOAT level anymore. I wouldn't say that it's because he walks 90% of the games though. He has been doing that since 2013. When Barça is winning no one talks about it but whenever there are problems it gets pointed out. His defensive contribution can be overall labeled as poor since the 2010-2011 season.

Agree that Messi’s 2014 World Cup was better than Cristiano’s Euros in 2016. But in terms of ball parks it was a long way away from the handful of great World Cup performances and somewhere down in a (still historically respectable) third tier for me. For example in a second tier I’d have the likes of Eusebio in 1966 or Baggio in 1994 and a few others of that ilk. Someone like Baggio (or Maradona in 82/86/90) had a similar challenge in singularly carrying the creative burden for their country. But while Messi struggled to make any impact on the quarter finals, semi finals and final, plenty others grew into those tournaments and their performances shifted up through the gears as the games got bigger. That’s the main difference for me, well before we get into the discussion of stats and trophies.

I see what you mean, if i had to adapt your classification i may end up with Maradona, Cruyff and Pelé in Tier 1, then there would be a Tier 1.5 where the likes of Eusébio who were monsters but just falls a bit short from those 3, and then in Tier 2, other performances like Messi's and Baggio. I don't think that Baggio and Eusébio are in the same ballpark when it comes to WC performances, as i rate the latter much higher.

Now it's interesting to compare Baggio, Messi and Maradona WC performances and their supporting cast, as they were all playing on defensive minded teams, but it has to be said that Argentina in 2014 had arguably the weakest offensive firepower. Italy had Albertini and Donadoni who could bring their fair share of playmaking, while Argentina had Burruchaga to assist Diego playmaking wise and Valdano who was clinical up front. Argentina 2014 had no other player who could step up to help Messi offensively. Di Maria was precious in that regard, the moment he got injured, it was over for Argentina. I mean just look at the Mascherano-Biglia-Perez-Lavezzi lineup, making the final with that midfield is already a miracle.

On a sidenote, about Baggio, i want to see all touch comps of his 1994 WC games, because i looked at Data which suggested that his playmaking was subpar in that tournament and that he stood out thanks to his goalscoring prowesses. I need to verify this with the eye test.

Sidenote 2 about Maradona, i suggest reading the article "If we knew what we know" by the website Statsperform which does an in depth analysis and comparison between Messi 2014 and Maradona 1986. Very interesting read, and shows that the gap in game impact is not as wide as one might think.

I'll end up by saying that ultimately judging players by World cup stints is an extremely flawed method, as WC tournaments being a short span of games, it is extremely sensible to flukes. For exemple, in 2014 Messi was in arguably the worst form of his prime, while Diego was in the best form of his life in the 1986 tournament. There are a ton of reasons why players can overperform or underperform in a WC tournament ranging from form, injuries, physical condition, system in place... But ultimately taking a level on which the player performed on that stage at his "average" level as in he would replicate it on a regular basis is a mistake, because for exemple we know from empirical observation that Diego was not as impactful with his clubs or in other international tournaments as he was during 1986, similarly Messi proved times and times again with his club or in other international tournaments that he can be waay more impactful than he was in 2014.

Not to to derail this into a Maradona vs Messi discussion, just to make a point that comparing players WC performances has to be taken with a grain of salt, and we shouldn't give disproportionate weight to that argument.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I don't know by what you mean by last few years, but i specified that Messi Post 2019 is not on his GOAT level anymore. I wouldn't say that it's because he walks 90% of the games though. He has been doing that since 2013. When Barça is winning no one talks about it but whenever there are problems it gets pointed out. His defensive contribution can be overall labeled as poor since the 2010-2011 season.

Ever since he moved to the right, he was still the best player in the world for most time but if we talk strictly GOAT level he was not. Disagreed on 10/11 point of him turning into a lazy git, its more from around 2013(roughly) as you said.

 

[harms]

I have to disagree with this, i would have understood if you said that he slowed down these last 2 years but saying that 2015-2019 Messi didn't play at a GOAT level is wrong. There is no aspect of his game where he regressed, some of his best performances of his carreer come from that period. If anything he improved as a playmaker and got even more complete and versatile. The 2018 and 2019 Liga titles were big carry jobs by him.

Let's agree to disagree. For me, Messi was the best player in the world for a while after he was already past his physical peak, but I certainly wouldn’t say that his later seasons were GOAT-like. He barely contributed off the ball and his acceleration wasn’t quite as sharp. As Sjor said, that’s disrespectful to Messi himself and to his best seasons, which very well may be the highest individual level that any football has ever reached (personally I’d put his peak second after peak Maradona, but the difference is marginal).

But by saying this you ignore the context, with Barça Messi played on a level that is comparable or even superior to either 1958 or 1970. If we have to compare Messi and Pelé we should do it when both of them had a dominant supporting cast around them. It is not a given that Pelé was more dominant with Santos than he was with Brazil (His average opposition with Santos was definitely weaker than the teams he was facing with Brazil though)

You’ll never get a fair and objective comparison as every player’s situation is different. Would Messi win (possibly a couple) World Cups with that Brazilian side? Truth is, we’ll never know, but it’s almost impossible to think that he wouldn’t. But you can’t count in the performances that we can only imagine in comparison to the real performances of, say, Pelé or Maradona, and the truth of the matter is that he hasn’t produced anything close to their 1958/1970/1986 campaigns. And you can’t use club performances in discussion about international ones.

And you cannot compare Messi 2014 to Ronaldo 2016

Oh, yeah, Messi’s was obviously better.

Sidenote 2 about Maradona, i suggest reading the article "If we knew what we know" by the website Statsperform which does an in depth analysis and comparison between Messi 2014 and Maradona 1986. Very interesting read, and shows that the gap in game impact is not as wide as one might think.

And there is a chart made by Opta comparing Messi 2014 with Cruyff 1974 Diego 1986 and Pele 1970, you might want to check it out you might be surprised to see how close those performances are.

Still, I find those stat comparisons pointless — I don’t need to see dribble stats as they won’t change my perception of how much better Maradona-86 was compared to Messi-14 (or any international version). And Maradona’s team was not all that — he didn’t win it single-handedly, of course, but he came as close as you theoretically can.

Should we rate players by their WC performances? Not exclusively. But then how fair is it to Maradona, for example, that Messi played in arguably the greatest ever club team? Et cetera. There’s always going to be nuances and details, hence why I usually think about them in tiers and not in strict numbers.

For example, I think that Pelé is the greatest, Maradona is the best (in terms of his peak ability), but then I’d probably put Messi second in both categories ahead of Maradona for greatness & Pelé for ability.

It’s all about fine margins anyway without any real chance to eliminate all of the variables.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Agree that Messi’s 2014 World Cup was better than Cristiano’s Euros in 2016. But in terms of ball parks it was a long way away from the handful of great World Cup performances and somewhere down in a (still historically respectable) third tier for me. For example in a second tier I’d have the likes of Eusebio in 1966 or Baggio in 1994 and a few others of that ilk. Someone like Baggio (or Maradona in 82/86/90) had a similar challenge in singularly carrying the creative burden for their country. But while Messi struggled to make any impact on the quarter finals, semi finals and final, plenty others grew into those tournaments and their performances shifted up through the gears as the games got bigger. That’s the main difference for me, well before we get into the discussion of stats and trophies.

1. Agreed its somewhat between second and third tier, for me much closer to second.
2. Its also important to put those performances into context, for Baggio and specially for Eusebio and co. it was much easier to do so as teams were not as organized defensively + your average player was MUCH worse then they are today or in 2014 but former is most important. Latter you can compare with better conditions modern player has. Also, not to mention how Messi's best chance of doing anything with that turd team was ruined by morons in their FA by appointing Diego as their manager, one time he had a great chance to carry them on his own.
3. Disagree completely.
Constantly between 2, 3 players - thats that defensive organisation i mentioned, here even magnified because argentina supporting cast lacked quality and cojones to even attempt doing something on their own, they were just standing and waiting for Messi to do something. His performance was good, specially early on but playing one vs everyone else is tiring so naturally performance was dropping. Point is, he didnt struggle, team did and it wasnt because of him(something you can make a case for the current Barca team and IMO it would partly be true)

Spoiler: vs Netherlands

Huge performance in the semi, big involvement in the goal, pass of the tournament for Di Maria, impressive holding on the ball in latter stages to relieve pressure from defence - damn good performance all-around.

Spoiler: vs Belgium

Here you can say he struggled a bit but no surprise there given he faced a team that was 3 classes above his and not only that, its was not just a great team but a group of great players, even on all-time level while he once again had to do it alone which is easiest to defend. Saying that, ignoring the result and how it ended, it was a decent performance that on another night could have easily been a great one as there was a lot of nearly moments which all went to the german side.

Spoiler: vs Germany

 

[harms]

Ever since he moved to the right, he was still the best player in the world for most time but if we talk strictly GOAT level he was not. Disagreed on 10/11 point of him turning into a lazy git, its more from around 2013(roughly) as you said.

That’s also fair, I think. Personally the treble-winning right version of him is my favorite, but you can make an argument that he wasn’t quite as good as he was as a false 9 a bit younger:

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Also what i find amazing in all this, its always what Messi lacks its never what others lack compared to him.
Another funny thing is, a lot of people that argue how Messi lacks a great international tourno then rate Cristiano or Di Stefano ahead of Cruyff when the latter probably has the best individual tourno in history of the game, better then Maradona's when he won it.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

That’s also fair, I think. Personally the treble-winning right version of him is my favorite, but you can make an argument that he wasn’t quite as good as he was as a false 9 a bit younger:

Yeah, think i also prefer the right wing one as you get a little bit of everything there but false 9 was easily better, alien stuff in that period and im yet to see anyone play on that level.

 

[Earvin Johnson]

This migh be a bit long so i'll divide it up in different parts

On Messi Goat level :

Ever since he moved to the right, he was still the best player in the world for most time but if we talk strictly GOAT level he was not. Disagreed on 10/11 point of him turning into a lazy git, its more from around 2013(roughly) as you said.

Let's agree to disagree. For me, Messi was the best player in the world for a while after he was already past his physical peak, but I certainly wouldn’t say that his later seasons were GOAT-like. He barely contributed off the ball and his acceleration wasn’t quite as sharp. As Sjor said, that’s disrespectful to Messi himself and to his best seasons, which very well may be the highest individual level that any football has ever reached (personally I’d put his peak second after peak Maradona, but the difference is marginal).

I don't understand the focus on the defensive contribution, ever since Guardiola got in charge he was always mediocre in that aspect of he game and abysmal since 2013, It cannot be used as an argument to say that his level dropped off. He averaged 0.9 Tackles+Interceptions in 2015 and 0.7 per game in the 2016-2019 seasons, both figures are ridiculously low. Surely if we want to talk about a supposed decline, it is not the aspect of the game where he is the least impactful that should be brought up.
He lost some lace for sure, be he also improved other aspects of his game to fill his new role. Mainly shooting from distance and free kicks. His goalscoring total is a bit less impressive from those years but that's because he plays further away from the goal, not that he can't play up front anymore, but Iniesta getting older and leaving the club left a huge creativity void in the midfield that he had to fill.

Again, his performances against Real in 2017, Juventus in 2017-18, Tottenham, Man Utd and Liverpool in 2018-19 were some of the best in his carreer. I can't share links with you but i invite you to check them up and tell me how that version of Messi is inferior to his 2015 self.

As i said, one could consider 2015 version of him as his peak for sure, but saying it's the last time he played at GOAT level is incomprehensible for me because it's absurdly high standards otherwise. If 2015 is the threshold for playing at a GOAT level, then no other player in history had a GOAT season. (We can't say about Pelé because we lack footage of specific seasons).

About winning bias :

You’ll never get a fair and objective comparison as every player’s situation is different. Would Messi win (possibly a couple) World Cups with that Brazilian side? Truth is, we’ll never know, but it’s almost impossible to think that he wouldn’t. But you can’t count in the performances that we can only imagine in comparison to the real performances of, say, Pelé or Maradona, and the truth of the matter is that he hasn’t produced anything close to their 1958/1970/1986 campaigns. And you can’t use club performances in discussion about international ones.

It's not because we cannot get an objective comparison for every player that we shouldn't try to do it when we have the ability to do so. And in the case of Messi and Pelé we do have a fair amount of elements to have this comparison.

I do not count performance that didn't happen, but i certainly take into account flukes, and that when you deal with small sample sizes the results are going to be inevitably skewed, and those things have to be taken into account. If youre familiar with Basketball you'd know that Lebron James in 2009 had the best post season of all time in 2009, better than anything Jordan ever produced, yet it cannot be used as an argument to prove his superiority to Jordan because we do know that it is not representative to his average level but more the result of an insane hot streak. It is just an exemple of how small sample sizes can skew things up. Now you can imagine how a 7 game tournament that takes place every four years is prone to these kind of discreapancies. Therefore Judging Messi on his WC is to me a flawed method, especially when we have a bunch of other instances where we know he performed to a level similar or better to the other All time greats.
Why ignore it and not take it into account ? As in Sjor Bepo's words, why is it always him lacking something, never what others lack compared to him.

You say it yourself, how fair is it to compare Messi and Maradona club performance when the former had a much better supporting cast ? Why does this logic not apply to Messi and Pele International tournaments then considering how superior the brazillian supporting cast was to Argentina's ? You are able to take into account nuances when comparing Messi and Maradona club performances, then there is no reason to not do the same with Messi and Pele.

On Messi WC 2014 performance :

Still, I find those stat comparisons pointless — I don’t need to see dribble stats as they won’t change my perception of how much better Maradona-86 was compared to Messi-14 (or any international version). And Maradona’s team was not all that — he didn’t win it single-handedly, of course, but he came as close as you theoretically can.

Should we rate players by their WC performances? Not exclusively. But then how fair is it to Maradona, for example, that Messi played in arguably the greatest ever club team? Et cetera. There’s always going to be nuances and details, hence why I usually think about them in tiers and not in strict numbers.

For example, I think that Pelé is the greatest, Maradona is the best (in terms of his peak ability), but then I’d probably put Messi second in both categories ahead of Maradona for greatness & Pelé for ability.

It’s all about fine margins anyway without any real chance to eliminate all of the variables.

I think @Šjor Bepo said it all in his post. As i pointed out in my precedent post Argentina 2014 was arguably even less creative offensively than in 1986 as Burruchaga was a decent creator and Valdano was clinical, while Messi had no one to assist him and Higuain was botching opportunities left and right.

So in 2014 he was not bad, but he was not put in situations to succeed by his teammates, if you only receive the ball in the midfield, even if you dribble 2 players you are still 30 meters away from the goal and unable to make an impact. This is why the number of dribbles, forward passes and carries is important, because it shows that the player had the ability to make the difference, but he was not put in condition to do so. And despite all that it's still crazy to say that Argentina could have walked away with the trophy with just a little bit of luck. I really suggest reading the article "If we knew what we know" that compare's Messi and Maradona it's really a great read.

At the end of the day i don't think it is particularly wrong to rate Pele higher than Messi, because as you said it's all about fine margins at this point, but i feel that some arguments who are used against Messi are unfair and that he gets more criticisms than he deserves just for that missing WC win, because if Higuain had smashed one of his chances in the back of the net, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because there would be literally no single stain on Messi GOAT case. . Letting such a volatile variable influence our judgement and perception is frustrating to me.

P-S : @Šjor Bepo Great post, just a little precision, the game against Belgium was in the quarter finals, and the game against the Netherlands was in the semi final.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

I think it's wrong to say if Argentina had won that world cup there would be no discussion between Messi and Pele, though maybe i'm misunderstanding.

Also what i find amazing in all this, its always what Messi lacks its never what others lack compared to him.
Another funny thing is, a lot of people that argue how Messi lacks a great international tourno then rate Cristiano or Di Stefano ahead of Cruyff when the latter probably has the best individual tourno in history of the game, better then Maradona's when he won it.

Don't know about that, the vast majority of these online arguments about greatest ever or especially Messi vs Cristiano have every side giving as good as they get. Often using every sneaky debating trick known to man.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Earvin Johnson strongly disagree on the defensive front, recently i re watched a fair share of peak Messi games and the difference in his defensive contribution is staggering. I dont really care what the stats say, never been a fan of stats as you can have a better defensive game with 0 balls won then someone that directly won 3. He was always active in the press, obviously less so then workhorses Pedro/Villa/Henry/Etoo but night and day compared to his right wing version.

@Demyanenko_square_jaw stopped reading or caring about Ronaldo, Messi debate long time ago so that thought was more aimed at Pele and Diego.

 

[Gio]

1. Agreed its somewhat between second and third tier, for me much closer to second.
2. Its also important to put those performances into context, for Baggio and specially for Eusebio and co. it was much easier to do so as teams were not as organized defensively + your average player was MUCH worse then they are today or in 2014 but former is most important. Latter you can compare with better conditions modern player has. Also, not to mention how Messi's best chance of doing anything with that turd team was ruined by morons in their FA by appointing Diego as their manager, one time he had a great chance to carry them on his own.
3. Disagree completely.
Constantly between 2, 3 players - thats that defensive organisation i mentioned, here even magnified because argentina supporting cast lacked quality and cojones to even attempt doing something on their own, they were just standing and waiting for Messi to do something. His performance was good, specially early on but playing one vs everyone else is tiring so naturally performance was dropping. Point is, he didnt struggle, team did and it wasnt because of him(something you can make a case for the current Barca team and IMO it would partly be true)

Spoiler: vs Netherlands

Huge performance in the semi, big involvement in the goal, pass of the tournament for Di Maria, impressive holding on the ball in latter stages to relieve pressure from defence - damn good performance all-around.

Spoiler: vs Belgium

Here you can say he struggled a bit but no surprise there given he faced a team that was 3 classes above his and not only that, its was not just a great team but a group of great players, even on all-time level while he once again had to do it alone which is easiest to defend. Saying that, ignoring the result and how it ended, it was a decent performance that on another night could have easily been a great one as there was a lot of nearly moments which all went to the german side.

Spoiler: vs Germany

Context works both ways. These attacking players had far rougher treatment. The challenge for the great dribblers was not just about getting past the defender, but avoiding their attempt to scythe them down, which has now rightly disappeared from the game. And it was also about avoiding injury during the course of the tournament, given the types of challenges the ball-carriers had to withstand. And they had to try and create on sometimes crap pitches which are always levellers that give poorer teams and defenders more of a chance. It's another tick in the box for Maradona in 1986 is what he achieved on bumpy fields with the ball bobbling up all over the place.

For me, none of those 2014 knockout performances were particularly remarkable, either by Messi's lofty standards or by the rarefied levels of the best World Cup showings. Throughout his control and balance is really impressive, but that's a given at this level. His best game is the Belgium one in the quarter final where he does well. Against Holland in the semi-final he has a couple of nice moments in the first half, but fades badly and is really poor later on. In the final, he again has a couple of nice runs, but squanders a great chance. He missed 1v1s in all 3 games and ends up with 0 assists and 0 goals from those ties, making no real imprint in the attacking third. I'd say he had a good tournament, enough to get a Team of the Tournament spot, but that's about it. I don't think that really changes if he or Higuain bury a chance against Germany and win the final. And it's not just about goals, it's about performances too. He looked more electric in his dribbling in 2010 touching levels that only a small handful of players had reached in the World Cup. I've always thought he never got his dues that summer, purely because of the narrative of 'no goals' and Maradona exposing the team with stupid decisions.

Granted in 2014 he played in a defensive team where he has the majority of the creative duties alongside whatever Di Maria and Lavezzi could muster. But it's no different to numerous other World Cups, such as Charlton in 1966, Kempes in 1978, Maradona in 1986 and 1990, Baggio in 1994 where he was the only creative player in the XI (fecking Massaro was his partner up top ahead of a workmanlike midfield), Zidane in 1998 and 2006, Forlan in 2010, and so on. And I don't think there's enough there to offset the challenge he had creating for a defensive team when you also throw into the mix the more blistering tournaments from players in more attacking teams - Pele in 1958 and 1970, Garrincha in 1962, Eusebio in 1966, Cruyff in 1974, Zico and Platini in 1982, Stoichkov and Hagi in 1994, Romario in 1994 (not exactly attacking either tbf), Rivaldo and Ronaldo in 1998 and 2002.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Context works both ways. These attacking players had far rougher treatment. The challenge for the great dribblers was not just about getting past the defender, but avoiding their attempt to scythe them down, which has now rightly disappeared from the game. And it was also about avoiding injury during the course of the tournament, given the types of challenges the ball-carriers had to withstand. And they had to try and create on sometimes crap pitches which are always levellers that give poorer teams and defenders more of a chance. It's another tick in the box for Maradona in 1986 is what he achieved on bumpy fields with the ball bobbling up all over the place.

For me, none of those 2014 knockout performances were particularly remarkable, either by Messi's lofty standards or by the rarefied levels of the best World Cup showings. Throughout his control and balance is really impressive, but that's a given at this level. His best game is the Belgium one in the quarter final where he does well. Against Holland in the semi-final he has a couple of nice moments in the first half, but fades badly and is really poor later on. In the final, he again has a couple of nice runs, but squanders a great chance. He missed 1v1s in all 3 games and ends up with 0 assists and 0 goals from those ties, making no real imprint in the attacking third. I'd say he had a good tournament, enough to get a Team of the Tournament spot, but that's about it. I don't think that really changes if he or Higuain bury a chance against Germany and win the final. And it's not just about goals, it's about performances too. He looked more electric in his dribbling in 2010 touching levels that only a small handful of players had reached in the World Cup. I've always thought he never got his dues that summer, purely because of the narrative of 'no goals' and Maradona exposing the team with stupid decisions.

Granted in 2014 he played in a defensive team where he has the majority of the creative duties alongside whatever Di Maria and Lavezzi could muster. But it's no different to numerous other World Cups, such as Charlton in 1966, Kempes in 1978, Maradona in 1986 and 1990, Baggio in 1994 where he was the only creative player in the XI (fecking Massaro was his partner up top ahead of a workmanlike midfield), Zidane in 1998 and 2006, Forlan in 2010, and so on. And I don't think there's enough there to offset the challenge he had creating for a defensive team when you also throw into the mix the more blistering tournaments from players in more attacking teams - Pele in 1958 and 1970, Garrincha in 1962, Eusebio in 1966, Cruyff in 1974, Zico and Platini in 1982, Stoichkov and Hagi in 1994, Romario in 1994 (not exactly attacking either tbf), Rivaldo and Ronaldo in 1998 and 2002.

Of course, thats why i disregarded some disadvantages of a modern player. Saying that, i strongly disagree with tackling myth, if anything having to play against those butchers(morons) made it easier for them to dribble because they are less acurate and once you go past them, they wont be tracking back and put pressure on you from the back, something modern players constantly have to deal with. Pitches are major issue on that we completely agree.

Im okay with someone thinking they are not remarkable, i only having an issue with you saying that he struggled because IMO its evident he didnt apart from the final where the gap was just too big for one player to close it, Higuain could and should have scored it but it wouldnt change his individual performance.

Already covered why its tougher in a modern era to do it on your own, 2010 would have a chance but then argentinians just didnt wont to win considering the actions of their FA. As i said, for me he is in the second tier or just on the verge of second tier. Cant comment from the head all those performances, would just say im 110% sure his 14 performance is comfortably better then anyones in 02.

 

[Synco]

One thing later Messi has still added to his overall GOAT case is his free kicks. (Earvin had already mentioned them.)

 

[harms]

One thing later Messi has still added to his overall GOAT case is his free kicks. (Earvin had already mentioned them.)

Yeah, that's true. It was quite incredible how he suddenly became one of the greatest free kick takers ever — and it's even funnier that Cristiano went the other way, it's almost like he lost it to Messi in poker or something like that.

By the way, I haven't been following the current Copa closely, but Messi seems to be on fire again — 4 goals & 4 assists already, being involved in 80% of Argentina's goals and already in the semi-final. I have to watch some of those games. And it would be nice to see him winning something with his country after all those years, although Brazil are probably the favourites at the moment.

 

[Earvin Johnson]

@Earvin Johnson strongly disagree on the defensive front, recently i re watched a fair share of peak Messi games and the difference in his defensive contribution is staggering. I dont really care what the stats say, never been a fan of stats as you can have a better defensive game with 0 balls won then someone that directly won 3. He was always active in the press, obviously less so then workhorses Pedro/Villa/Henry/Etoo but night and day compared to his right wing version.

I wonder if you rewatched random games or important games, because he was always the kind who picked his matches and put a lot more effort when the stakes were higher... Anyway, my point is that defensive contribution is the area where he impacts the game the least and even in 2015 he was walking for the vast majority of the time. It was never defensive contribution that made him an amazing player, so a decline in that domain marginally impacts his overrall value. As long as his Dribbling/Finishing/Passing is top tier, his impact is going to be close to his peak.

@harms

Oh trust me you gonna harm yourself watching that Copa America, i catched a few games and could barely make it through. Nor Argentina nor Messi are better than before, it's just that every team seem to be bad. Even Brazil showed a lot of fragility, so who knows, maybe with a lil bit of luck he can walk away with a trophy.

On a sidenote, i stumbled upon this amazing article and wanted to share it. It explains really well Messi's post 2015 evolution and delves deep into some arguments i mentioned, mainly the loss of creativity of the team.

https://statsbomb.com/2020/04/messi-moments-with-alex-delmas-real-betis-1-4-barcelona-march-2019/

Another interesting thing to note is that despite having only half the goal contributions of Xavi in 2008/09 (12 Goals+ Assists while Xavi has 26 G+A), Iniesta seem to have a higher xG+xA, translating his tremendous impact on the team's offense even if his end product could appear to be underwhelming.
I find it great that we can have stats which somewhat accurately translates the eye test.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Earvin Johnson always random games.
Defensive contributions never made him a great player but when you do absolutely feck all it makes you a lesser player.

 

[Synco]

We'll make this the final day, the thread will close some time tomorrow. So new entries or edits still possible if you want.

@Edgar Allan Pillow @Earvin Johnson @Fortitude

 

[Synco]

@P-Nut @antohan @Motorman

 

[Synco]

Yeah, that's true. It was quite incredible how he suddenly became one of the greatest free kick takers ever — and it's even funnier that Cristiano went the other way, it's almost like he lost it to Messi in poker or something like that.

It's delightful. Barca getting a free kick has been among the most enjoyable things in football for me the last few years.

Oh, and I'd love to see a game of poker between these two Also featuring Neymar and a trash-talking Thomas Müller.

By the way, I haven't been following the current Copa closely, but Messi seems to be on fire again — 4 goals & 4 assists already, being involved in 80% of Argentina's goals and already in the semi-final. I have to watch some of those games. And it would be nice to see him winning something with his country after all those years, although Brazil are probably the favourites at the moment.

Yeah, I hope he finally wins it. Tonight's the semi. Wouldn't complain about Brazil winning it either, but it would be special if Messi finally does it.

 

[Gio]

@Earvin Johnson always random games.
Defensive contributions never made him a great player but when you do absolutely feck all it makes you a lesser player.

It's the knock on effect of the non-existent defensive effort that has become more apparent in the last 5-6 years. Luis Enrique's CL-winning team from 2014/2015 had a more physical midfield who didn't get run over in transitions, but they've never really resolved that issue since then. And while Messi has mostly been the best player in the world during that timeframe, a weaker Barcelona haven't been able to accommodate his off-the-ball zero effort as well as they did from 2010-2015. For me it's actually been the biggest games where it has been more of a problem, particularly against well organised, high tempo sides who kill teams in transition. There are various reasons why Barcelona have got repeatedly thrashed at the business end of the Champions League, but there's a pattern of conceding counter attacks - no pressure on defence-splitting balls from deeper areas, no tracking of runners from midfield or defence - that catches them out time and time again.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Gio cant tell if you agree or disagree with me
Anyways, defensively good is only peak Messi that played as a false 9, right wing was always weak as you say though he really pushed the limit last few years.

 

[Gio]

@Šjor Bepo I agree. I don't think Barcelona have been able to accommodate it in recent years against top opposition.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Šjor Bepo I agree. I don't think Barcelona have been able to accommodate it in recent years against top opposition.

Very few teams could, thats why i laugh when in drafts some pair 2 or even 3 players that offer very little yet people buy it.
Regarding Barca, its far from their biggest problem but its a problem.

 

[Synco]

I think both legs against Mou's Real in the 2011 CL semis are great examples of Messi putting in a shift. Could be a bit of a nasty bugger as well, in a good way.

 

[Physiocrat]

Is it worth redoing the CB voting to remove the Nesta problem? Put defenders either as stopper or ball-players. It shouldn't be difficult, just tag everyone who voted before to amend their rankings accordingly. The write ups stay the same from harms but should tidy up the project and hopefully it can become a proper internet resource like those Big Soccer ones (well I have always used the Big Soccer ones for reference)

 

[Synco]

Is it worth redoing the CB voting to remove the Nesta problem? Put defenders either as stopper or ball-players. It shouldn't be difficult, just tag everyone who voted before to amend their rankings accordingly. The write ups stay the same from harms but should tidy up the project and hopefully it can become a proper internet resource like those Big Soccer ones (well I have always used the Big Soccer ones for reference)

It's kind of the plan, but besides the question of framing* there's still the problem of what to do with lists from posters who won't come back for a redo (at least one is even banned).

I certainly wouldn't want to scrap their votes altogether, but the alternative would be to find some formula to translate them into the new system. Which would be complicated & probably a bit dodgy.

* Not 100% sure, but I think @harms wants to do just one list for all CBs? I personally wouldn't like that, tbh.

 

[Physiocrat]

Not sure on the best way to edit the posts. It might be best to ask those to edit and if they do count them, if not ignore them. We can always ask for new submissions too.

On list for CBs would be bad IMO. I think we got all the categories right all things considered. It would be a step backwards not to split ball playing and stopper CBs. If anything there's more justification to merge the full-backs list because they perform the same role broadly speaking in the side.

For the ball playing and stopper CBs we just need a curated list, like with the 10s, forwards etc. to decide who goes where and we're done.

 

[Synco]

Not sure on the best way to edit the posts. It might be best to ask those to edit and if they do count them, if not ignore them. We can always ask for new submissions too.

Really don't want to do that. Based on the experience of recent votings (= about two years later) it would mean throwing out a lot of contributions we've already included.

Agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Physiocrat]

Really don't want to do that. Based on the experience of recent votings (= about two years later) it would mean throwing out a lot of contributions we've already included.

Agree with the rest of your post.

I suppose just ignore players in their lists who then get counted in another list. E.g Nesta is in a ball-playing list and should be in the stopper list, we just remove him from say no.6 in that poster's ball-playing list and keep everything else. Just don't assign points for that position in his list. Alternatively you just move everyone else up although that could get a bit weird. Those are the only two ways we can do it if they don't edit it I think.

And on the Nesta question, does he go stopper or ball-playing CB?

 

[harms]

* Not 100% sure, but I think @harms wants to do just one list for all CBs? I personally wouldn't like that, tbh.

No way to do that without a revote.

 

[Synco]

No way to do that without a revote.

No doubt, if it's done we'd have to start from scratch.

What I don't like about it is that Nesta, Kohler, etc. would still end up being buried under x GOAT liberos, even though their job was very different from Beckenbauer's or Scirea's. It's like making (midfield) Desailly, Makelele, Voronin compete with all those midfield playmakers & #10s - of course the latter are "better" footballers all things considered, but the comparison itself is besides the point for me.

I suppose just ignore players in their lists who then get counted in another list. E.g Nesta is in a ball-playing list and should be in the stopper list, we just remove him from say no.6 in that poster's ball-playing list and keep everything else. Just don't assign points for that position in his list. Alternatively you just move everyone else up although that could get a bit weird. Those are the only two ways we can do it if they don't edit it I think.

The problem is not to remove him from lists (that's easy). It's what to do with those who have given all their points in the "wrong" list. Just scrapping these points would still mean Nesta loses out in the proper list.

And on the Nesta question, does he go stopper or ball-playing CB?

That's the next problem for me. I don't think "ball-playing" works too well as a category. Nesta is a good example.

"Liberos & defensive sweepers" vs "stoppers & modern CBs" is the best I can think of, because it works with defined roles. The likes of Scirea & Picchi in the former, Nesta & Förster in the latter. Not that there aren't holes in this too (Picchi is very far from Beckenbauer et al.), but there'll always be holes no matter the system.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

• Stoppers
• Sweepers/liberos/complete CBs

 

[Synco]

• Stoppers
• Sweepers/liberos/complete CBs

Another possibility, but I think it's mainly a renaming of the "ball-playing" category. Stoppers list would probably be depleted, as some of the best ones were pretty complete. I'd rather have Nesta with Kohler & Thuram than with Beckenbauer & Sammer. Seems closer in function.

Anyway, I've said my part. Strikers are up next, so there's time to sort this out.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Another possibility, but I think it's mainly a renaming of the "ball-playing" category. Stoppers list would probably be depleted, as some of the best ones were pretty complete. I'd rather have Nesta with Kohler & Thuram than with Beckenbauer & Sammer. Seems closer in function.

Anyway, I've said my part. Strikers are up next, so there's time to sort this out.

Ohh Nesta would be with Kohler and co.
Complete ones are more of a modern thing with the likes of Silva, Dijk and co.

 

[Synco]

Ohh Nesta would be with Kohler and co.
Complete ones are more of a modern thing with the likes of Silva, Dijk and co.

Aaah okay. Although I'd see Nesta much closer to them as to someone like Schwarzenbeck or Höttges.

It's so bloody impossible