Referees influencing games by not giving yellows

[The Siege]

I don't have a problem with it.

In high profile games, especially derbies, the players tend to get stuck in very quickly because of all the tension around the game and eventually find their rhythm and settle down. If you started carding everyone in that period, the ref has the potential of completely destroying the game early in the second half.

Sure it sucks in cases like yesterday, but truthfully we have lost and profited from this nature of refereeing.

 

[arnie_ni]

That and also not booking players for kicking the ball away after a whistle (they only do this in the last 10 minutes of a game). Today, ref whistled for offside and then Rashford kept on holding onto the ball for at least 10 seconds and blasted it into the net.

You have to do that now incase it's not offside. Hapoened in the cl game, given offside, rash plays on scores, var shows he's onside, goal stands

 

[big_jeffstar]

Reffing is all over the place this year, and it’s been getting worse the last few years in general.
It’s like they’ve been told to let the game play out and not to make any decisions which could swing it one way or another, for the sake of “entertainment”
but in doing so it’s influencing games by letting certain players get away with murder time and time again
the Fabinho challenge yesterday on Bruno was a joke.. he wasn’t even looking at the ball, completely took him out of the game. Stopped a promising counter and he gets a finger wag and the ref stands there laughing like “oooo you’re lucky I didn’t book you there” ... I just don’t get it.. why aren’t the commentators calling it out more?

 

[adexkola]

I think refs have caught on to the obvious, blatant fouls committed to stop the counter. For the most part. Tierney was just bad at this aspect yesterday.

 

[Anustart89]

I don't have a problem with it.

In high profile games, especially derbies, the players tend to get stuck in very quickly because of all the tension around the game and eventually find their rhythm and settle down. If you started carding everyone in that period, the ref has the potential of completely destroying the game early in the second half.

Sure it sucks in cases like yesterday, but truthfully we have lost and profited from this nature of refereeing.

But you’re missing an essential point. A ref can never destroy a game by upholding the laws of the game. If players are allowed to break the rules persistently without adequate punishment, then the game is ruined for the other team.

It’s the player who breaks the rules that ruins the game for his team, not the ref. Should we abolish the rules altogether then because breaking them causes the ref to ruin the game?

 

[VeevaVee]

I don't have a problem with it.

In high profile games, especially derbies, the players tend to get stuck in very quickly because of all the tension around the game and eventually find their rhythm and settle down. If you started carding everyone in that period, the ref has the potential of completely destroying the game early in the second half.

Sure it sucks in cases like yesterday, but truthfully we have lost and profited from this nature of refereeing.

It’s an interesting view and I definitely see your point, but ultimately agree with @Anustart89 there

 

[The Siege]

But you’re missing an essential point. A ref can never destroy a game by upholding the laws of the game. If players are allowed to break the rules persistently without adequate punishment, then the game is ruined for the other team.

It’s the player who breaks the rules that ruins the game for his team, not the ref. Should we abolish the rules altogether then because breaking them causes the ref to ruin the game?

Honestly, by the law of the game, you're completely right.

But a key component in refereeing has always been human sensibilities. At the end of the day, the fact that fans across the world are likely paying to watch two top teams have a go at each, and the fact that the players are equally nervy about the start of a game because of what's at stake - these are factors that will affect a referees thinking. If it's persistent rule-breaking, then I can understand the early yellow, but I don't have hard feelings about letting a few tackles go at the start of a game.

And thank you @VeevaVee, I can understand two sides of a coin like this existing.

 

[VP89]

I have been seeing this too, good thread! I think it will stay like this for a while so we are probably smart in leveraging from it if we can (like City/Liverpool do) rather than complain about it though.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

That and also not booking players for kicking the ball away after a whistle (they only do this in the last 10 minutes of a game). Today, ref whistled for offside and then Rashford kept on holding onto the ball for at least 10 seconds and blasted it into the net.

Do you mean the one where he went inside past the goalie then stopped?

Few seconds? Don't remember him smashing the ball into the goal though.

And you'd book a player for that?

 

[Jev]

Ref did a fine job yesterday and controlled the game perfectly. Very red-tinted thread. It was a fair, competitive, hard-fought game.

 

[Anustart89]

Honestly, by the law of the game, you're completely right.

But a key component in refereeing has always been human sensibilities. At the end of the day, the fact that fans across the world are likely paying to watch two top teams have a go at each, and the fact that the players are equally nervy about the start of a game because of what's at stake - these are factors that will affect a referees thinking. If it's persistent rule-breaking, then I can understand the early yellow, but I don't have hard feelings about letting a few tackles go at the start of a game.

And thank you @VeevaVee, I can understand two sides of a coin like this existing.

I agree that some common sense has to be applied, especially in high tension games. I can understand a hard tackle not being deemed a yellow card early on in the game (while egregious fouls like de Jong in the WC final cannot be accepted just because it's early on in the game). If a referee sets a high standard for crunching tackles and applies it both ways, I've absolutely no problem with it.

The problem I'm having with cynical fouls is that allowing them usually gives one team a tactical edge over the opposition. They can put the other team under pressure and commit men forward while breaking up any attack at the back by tactically fouling in a very obvious way.
These teams use the referee's lenience as a tactical tool which goes against the fairness and gives the team that is on the end of the tackles a double disadvantage in that their tactical plan (counter-attacking) is neutered and they're being put under more pressure by more attackers from the opposition. The rules are very clear that "preventing a promising attack" is a cautionable offence, so the referees and their reluctance to hand out yellow cards for specific fouls, even if cynical in their nature (high up the pitch, player turned towards own goal etc), are used as a means to get a clear tactical advantage since you can commit more men forward than if the rules were properly applied.

If yellow cards were handed out, as they should, for ruining promising attacks, then the other team would have a fair playing field because being on a yellow card means you can't just destroy the next attack by committing the same tackle. Now, teams obviously use this tactic anyway, they just cycle the fouls among other players, but referees turning a blind eye to the laws of the game should never be allowed to be used as tactics, especially if they are used to the disadvantage of the other team.

 

[Oranges038]

It's about as annoying as players moaning about getting a yellow for their "first" foul. If it's a yellow card tackle, it really doesnt matter when the tackle is made.

But these tactical fouls, as annoying as they ate, in my view and probably the referees view the fouls themselves are rarely yellow card offenses during any other phase of play. So there's no need for one in these instances, especially when most of the time the defending team has 3 or 4 players back. It's really up to the referees in the games to stamp it out if they feel it's become a problem.

I just looked this up out of curiosity, on the PL stats site.

In his entire time in England Fernandinho has made 330 fouls and received 47 yellows and 4 reds. So on average he gets a yellow card every 7 tackles.

Matic has 38 yellows for 245 fouls, one every 6.5 fouls.

Kante has 27 yellows for 246 fouls, one every 9 fouls.

Mark Noble, has 82 yellows for 381 fouls, an average of a yellow card every 4 fouls.

There's a good variation in there from fairly similar midfield players. Maybe Mark Noble would have a higher average if he played for City or Liverpool.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Referees should use a much harder line, when it comes to giving yellows for stopping counter-attacks. This is a no-brainer to me, as it will open up games and make them much more watchable.

 

[bsCallout]

It is the trick to the high press. The moment a team breaks the through the press, commit a foul on the halfway line. And repeat.

Even in the times we got through and created chances they tried fouling us, every single one.

 

[Doracle]

I don't have a problem with it.

In high profile games, especially derbies, the players tend to get stuck in very quickly because of all the tension around the game and eventually find their rhythm and settle down. If you started carding everyone in that period, the ref has the potential of completely destroying the game early in the second half.

Sure it sucks in cases like yesterday, but truthfully we have lost and profited from this nature of refereeing.

I don’t agree with this. Yes, refs should bear that in mind and maybe give a bit of leeway for slightly more aggressive tackles early on that they might otherwise penalise. However, this thread is about the tactical cynical fouls, which Liverpool do quite frequently to stop counter-attacks. Booking players for that type of foul early on isn’t an issue of letting them settle down. It’s to stop them from being able to continue to disrupt the game in that way.

This affects us more than other teams as counter-attacking is one of our key strategies. Fabinho and Thiago being able to continue to disrupt our counter-attacks yesterday because they weren’t booked up early on disrupted our game plan. There were 1-2 clear yellow cards which should obviously have been given.

 

[PieCrust]

I’ve been banging this drum for a long time now. “Tactical fouls” and “taking one for the team” are one of the most appalling facets of the game. It’s much worse than diving and a ton of other things that players get criticized for. There’s never even an attempt to get the ball, it’s just shoving the player down to completely break down their attack. I can hardly thing of anything less in the spirit of the game, and firmly think it should be a red card offense.

At least the dive can be reviewed. But we're all just supposed to accept the "professional" foul as part of the game. It's so cynical and off-putting.

 

[Oddboy]

It's almost as if there's a progress bar that both teams contribute towards before hitting a critical point. May aswell just commit a shit tonne of tactical fouls in the first half then let the other team reap the negatives in the second half.

 

[InterFan1998]

Do you mean the one where he went inside past the goalie then stopped?

Few seconds? Don't remember him smashing the ball into the goal though.

And you'd book a player for that?

No, I'm referring to the one where he kicked the ball in the newt. Why wouldn't he get booked? Van Persie even got a second yellow for it, despite there only being 2 seconds between the ref's whistle and his shot. In this case, it was 5-10 seconds. Also, yesterday, Ashley Young got booked for throwing a ball to his teammate while Ronaldo was chasing him. It's very common and happens all the time.

 

[InterFan1998]

I’ve been banging this drum for a long time now. “Tactical fouls” and “taking one for the team” are one of the most appalling facets of the game. It’s much worse than diving and a ton of other things that players get criticized for. There’s never even an attempt to get the ball, it’s just shoving the player down to completely break down their attack. I can hardly thing of anything less in the spirit of the game, and firmly think it should be a red card offense.

I see your point. To me the worst is tugging an opponent's shirt, which should always be a red, no matter where it happens. It's one of those fouls that is obvious a player is only trying to purposely foul and never win the ball. I'm more ok with rough tackles if a player goes for the ball. If you pull someone's shirt you are never going for the ball.

 

[JSArsenal]

I’m guessing he means it’s hypocritical because our players do professional fouls? They usually get carded though. To be clear @JSArsenal, this is a thread about lack of cards where they’re warranted, especially early in games, not professional fouling specifically.

I know. I'm not referring to the squad you have now but United under SAF. How many times did he send teams out to kick us, especially early on with no cards in sight?

That is the irony for me

 

[roonster09]

I know. I'm not referring to the squad you have now but United under SAF. How many times did he send teams out to kick us, especially early on with no cards in sight?

That is the irony for me

Yeah Arsenal were bunch of angels, not thugs at all

 

[Berbasbullet]

I know. I'm not referring to the squad you have now but United under SAF. How many times did he send teams out to kick us, especially early on with no cards in sight?

That is the irony for me

Christ the Neville brothers hatchet job on Reyes 15 years ago has lived long in the memory.

 

[JSArsenal]

Yeah Arsenal were bunch of angels, not thugs at all

We got our fair share of red cards, some fairly, others were very harsh. The refs had it out for us.

If Arsenal had tough tackling players - "Dirty Arsenal, bunch of thugs"

When Arsenal had more technical players "Arsenal are soft, need a few tough players"

Christ the Neville brothers hatchet job on Reyes 15 years ago has lived long in the memory.

I'm still bitter, your lot should have had at least five red cards

 

[VeevaVee]

Hello Milner

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Hello Milner

We could have kicked the ball out then and made the ref make a decision. Forgotten about as game carried on for so long without a break, but he should have come back and booked him.

Not for the foul but for being Milner.

 

[VeevaVee]

Here we are again. It’s beyond a joke at this point

 

[Kag]

I think this is a fair point. At least two West Ham players killed counters in that half. Maguire did, too. Really, they’re yellow card challenges, although I do think the flow of the game is helped as a result.

 

[AltiUn]

Here we are again. It’s beyond a joke at this point

That Noble incident was ridiculous.

 

[Pexbo]

It’s the FA Cup. Let’s not ruin the spectacle with a red card.


Let’s ruin it by allowing one team to stop the other from playing, by cheating.

 

[VeevaVee]

I think this is a fair point. At least two West Ham players killed counters in that half. Maguire did, too. Really, they’re yellow card challenges, although I do think the flow of the game is helped as a result.

Noble’s foul on van de beek while taking the throw in as well. Can’t see any way that shouldn’t be a yellow. It even falls in to unsporting behaviour

 

[Solius]

That Noble incident was ridiculous.

I mean this is the same guy who charged Pogba and then grabbed him by the head and twisted. Gets away with it all the time cause it’s just ol’ Nobes.

 

[Bubz27]

Noble got away with manhandling Herrera once. He'd have to do a lot worse to get booked against us.

 

[AltiUn]

I mean this is the same guy who charged Pogba and then grabbed him by the head and twisted. Gets away with it all the time cause it’s just ol’ Nobes.

Didn't he also manhandle Herrera or am I misremembering that? He's a complete tosser.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

I mean this is the same guy who charged Pogba and then grabbed him by the head and twisted. Gets away with it all the time cause it’s just ol’ Nobes.

And the guy who picked Ander up and carried him off.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Noble got away with manhandling Herrera once. He'd have to do a lot worse to get booked against us.

that was ridiculous - but also Herrera being a massive fanny, who should never had let it happen.

 

[Sandikan]

Noble hauling Herrera off without any sort of retribution off our players was one of the more shameful signs of our weakness this last 7 years.

Noble is a horrible little mediocrity though. How is he still in the premier league. He offers nothing.

 

[Ødegaard]

When Noble retires it will be a good day. Same with a lot of referees.

 

[PoTMS]

Noble hauling Herrera off without any sort of retribution off our players was one of the more shameful signs of our weakness this last 7 years.

Noble is a horrible little mediocrity though. How is he still in the premier league. He offers nothing.

We need a proper dirty little bastard in our team. Too many softies in the team. Even Maguire seems a pushover.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Noble hauling Herrera off without any sort of retribution off our players was one of the more shameful signs of our weakness this last 7 years.

Noble is a horrible little mediocrity though. How is he still in the premier league. He offers nothing.

Especially with that hair style.

 

[Sandikan]

We need a proper dirty little bastard in our team. Too many softies in the team. Even Maguire seems a pushover.

I think McTom has that touch of devil.

It helps being built like an out house though.