Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
19,866
Andy Grey saying they got offsides wrong as if he has greater clarity than actual computer science.
Also Richard Keys looks like a balloon. Must be great food over there in the Middle East.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
21,191
Location
Moscow
Is there any mathematical approach behind these offside decisions? Like a programm that analyzes the picture?

I`m asking because the way it looks to me is that the var guys just paint style put two lines random in the picture and that`s that.
I ask myself the same question quite often. All those projections don't look too realistic, although in theory, knowing the camera's positions, you should be able to do a 3D model of a pitch and generate those lines live.
 

Bobski

Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
3,877
Goals like that being ruled out makes me despise VAR. I don't think anyone was looking for offside to be that absurdly strict.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
22,186
If the offsides call overrides the Pickford challenge then defenders can attack strikers whenever they are penalized for being offsides
I was thinking something similar but (apparently) it's wrong.

It seems the offside means a penalty can't be given but the player can still be red carded if there isn't a genuine attempt to play the ball, regardless of whether the attacker is offside or not.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
21,191
Location
Moscow
Wow, I am in total support of this new rule!!! After all, a truck load of goals are scored with players’ armpits every season!

(not taking the piss out of you, but the rule)
Ehm, what? It's allowed, so why does the amount of goals scored should matter? Not many goals are scored with players backsides, for example, should we not count them in offside decisions?
 
Last edited:

pass.pass.pass

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 13, 2020
Messages
35
Well, VAR let off Robertson earlier in the game. No proper replays were shown of his challenge. Is Klopp the new Fergie? Are the powers that be scared of him the way the scousers used to say they were of Fergie?

And it's only fair they don't allow a goal that was actually offside anyway. By 1mm or 10, quite irrelevant.
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
19,866
Mane trips an Everton defender off the ball before the red card. Surely a second yellow?
 

paraguayo

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
870
Supports
neutral
VAR should be used to avoid Maradona's goal against england, or Henry, or criminal offsides and stuff like that.

I've predicted all this shitshow before the implementation of VAR, because I actually watched its test-phase in CWC 2017, where they called the softest penalty just for the sake of showing off the new toy.
 

Sara125

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
1,500
Location
London
Ehm, what? It's allowed, so why does the amount of goals scored should matter? Not many goals are scored with players backsides, for example, should we not count them in offside decisions? And it's not a new rule at all.
Meh. Still think VAR needs to be binned.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
22,186
Is there any mathematical approach behind these offside decisions? Like a programm that analyzes the picture?

I`m asking because the way it looks to me is that the var guys just paint style put two lines random in the picture and that`s that.
The 3D imaging is on point so the lines will always be straight, the vertical lines always vertical and the parallel lines always parallel.

As far as I'm aware they still have to manually select the offside point though. Which is where the armpit offsides came from, as that was a point on the body they could measure from consistently. Obviously they weren't actually counting the armpit but rather using that as the reference point for where the arm (which you couldn't be offside from) met the body (which you could)

But that had to change when the top part of the arm was no longer deemed to be incapable of playing the ball. So I'm guessing they now use the badge on the arm as the reference point.
 

sammsky1

Pochettino's #1 fan
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
31,227
Location
London
VAR should be used to avoid Maradona's goal against england, or Henry, or criminal offsides and stuff like that.

I've predicted all this shitshow before the implementation of VAR, because I actually watched its test-phase in CWC 2017, where they called the softest penalty just for the sake of showing off the new toy.
So how do you define the boundary on where it should be applied and where it shouldn’t?
 

pass.pass.pass

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 13, 2020
Messages
35
VAR should be used to avoid Maradona's goal against england, or Henry, or criminal offsides and stuff like that.

I've predicted all this shitshow before the implementation of VAR, because I actually watched its test-phase in CWC 2017, where they called the softest penalty just for the sake of showing off the new toy.

But everyone disagreed with me. Naah, lets use VAR for all interpretative matters. Well, you lot got the shower of shite you deserved.

Another correct prediction by me..
Eh? Offsides are "criminal" in a game.

Nothing interpretative about this decision. A computer determined that it WAS offside, what's the problem?
 

paraguayo

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
870
Supports
neutral
So how do you define the boundary on where it should be applied and where it shouldn’t?
Common sense.

People are too obsessed with turning everything into black and white, I see no problem in just letting the refs use their common sense and flow of the game..

Trying to turn every law into black or white has gotten us into this handball shit show of now.
 

hobbers

Full Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
9,682
Remember those golden times where there were maybe 2 or 3 awful refereeing/offside decisions to talk about over an entire weekend of football?

Yeah, now there's 2 or 3 awful decisions every single game. :lol:

As much as I love var fecking Liverpool over the magnitude of how bad the system is, and the rules are, and how it's all implemented. It really is destroying the enjoyment of football.
 

Bastian

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
10,881
Delighted the goal was ruled offside, but VAR needs to go. It was a ludicrous decision (though they benefited a lot from those last season).
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
4,528
Technically the pen and the goal were both offside, but think its madness thats what football has come to.

Clear red for pickford as well
 

McGrathsipan

Full Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
15,560
It's a joke. He's clearly not gaining an advantage because his fecking hand is further forward

It's a joke.
 

liamp

Full Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2015
Messages
1,170
In American sports, the replay rule allows for the ruling on the field to stand if the replay is too close to be definitively ruled in favor of either team. This is because a referee's judgment can only be overturned if there is clear and irrefutable evidence on the replay. This forces the referees to still do their job and make what they think is the right call and helps reduce situations like today.

It doesn't seem to be the same process for VAR, and I don't understand why. The linesman never flagged so the ruling for the last goal was a goal, and you're going to have a hard time telling me that VAR was conclusive enough to be able to overturn that.
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
19,866
Common sense.

People are too obsessed with turning everything into black and white, I see no problem in just letting the refs use their common sense and flow of the game..

Trying to turn every law into black or white has gotten us into this handball shit show of now.
But what if the next offside is slightly ahead of todays but at a neglible level so its even further offside? How can you give option b offside and not a? Where is the advantage and where does that stop?
I genuinely dont know how it can be improved upon where its consistent for all.
 

sammsky1

Pochettino's #1 fan
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
31,227
Location
London
Technically the pen and the goal were both offside, but think its madness thats what football has come to.

Clear red for pickford as well
Why is it madness? They are factual decisions and we now have the technology to be certain. I don’t see what the issue is.
 

B20

HEY EVERYONE I IGNORE SOMEONE LOOK AT ME
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Messages
24,439
Location
Disney Land
Supports
Liverpool
At what point are the referees too embarrassed by all this to keep it up?

The millimeter interpretation of offside is specific to England and they keep at it despite Having been instructed this is not the intent of VAR, as "clear and obvious also applies here."

What really annoys me is that they clearly don't operate with a concept of error margin in VAR and when to favour the attacker.
 

paraguayo

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
870
Supports
neutral
Arm should not be counted for offside, unless he scores with his fecking shoulder which is the rarest thing in history.

This way we are going to cancel a bunch of goals this season
 

B20

HEY EVERYONE I IGNORE SOMEONE LOOK AT ME
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Messages
24,439
Location
Disney Land
Supports
Liverpool
Why is it madness? They are factual decisions and we now have the technology to be certain. I don’t see what the issue is.
It's not as certain as you think. Which is why these millimeter judgments are ridiculous.
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
4,528
Why is it madness? They are factual decisions and we now have the technology to be certain. I don’t see what the issue is.
Because those tight tight decisions weren't an issue. It was glaring mistakes people wanted fixed.

No one would complain if they were given onside.
 

Superunknown

Full Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
Messages
1,543
The law-makers/rule-makers/law-keepers have lost sight of what it is that they're trying to do. You don't gain an advantage by having that part of your body in that position, and that's such a difficult thing to have control of during a match in realtime. It doesn't work that way. The law isn't necessarily there for that. Firstly, the law needs updating and made relevant for the game in its current state. Then, the technology needs to be implemented and used properly, in accordance with those laws.

When you've got diehard-United fans sticking up for Liverpool, you know that something must be wrong!
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
4,528
Jenas actually pointed out that in the still used for mane's offside, it actually looks like thiago has already passed the ball and they need to go back a frame
 

TheGodsInRed

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
829
Location
Up North
Comparing an arm to a foot makes it look much worse as they draw from the outside of the upper arm down and that becomes the red line. BT pundits don't seem to realise this.

The camera is both elevated and not on line so you can't tell with the eye, have to trust the technology which has been tested to be accurate. Having said that, I would be annoyed if it was a United player!
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
22,186
At what point are the referees too embarrassed by all this to keep it up?

The millimeter interpretation of offside is specific to England and they keep at it despite Having been instructed this is not the intent of VAR, as "clear and obvious also applies here."

What really annoys me is that they clearly don't operate with a concept of error margin in VAR and when to favour the attacker.
I think you're wrong there.

I mean you're right in that the IFAB chief did say that, but he quickly corrected himself:

IFAB chief Lukas Brud raised eyebrows at the start of the week when he appeared to suggest referees in England were implementing VAR incorrectly on offside by not using the "clear and obvious" qualification and being "too forensic."

But now Brud has clarified his remarks and confirmed that when calibrated lines are being used, as they are in all major European leagues and competitions with the Hawkeye system, the decision must be based on the result of the technology and not be subjective.

"If the images with calibrated lines and the perpendicular line show that there is an offside position, the video assistant should continue to report," Brud told sportschau.de. "Even if it is only a centimetre. Offside is offside."
https://www.espn.com/soccer/english...ar-even-to-the-tightest-of-margins-ifab-chief

And the more obvious proof is that we literally see these mm offsides in other leagues too. There have been countless examples of them.
 

sammsky1

Pochettino's #1 fan
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
31,227
Location
London
It's not as certain as you think. Which is why these millimeter judgments are ridiculous.
It’s either off or on. It’s a fact.

Nothing ridiculous about it at all, just sour grapes and frustration from those to moan. I’ll also moan when it goes against my team but it’s not unfair.

cricket and tennis have gone through this transformation and no one complains about close calls anymore. Football needs to adjust quickly else it’s just wasted energy moaning about it.
 

B20

HEY EVERYONE I IGNORE SOMEONE LOOK AT ME
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Messages
24,439
Location
Disney Land
Supports
Liverpool
The camera is both elevated and not on line so you can't tell with the eye, have to trust the technology which has been tested to be accurate.
The technology has a 13 cm margin of error. That's in addition the arbitrary situation we have here where it seems they picked a frame where the ball had already left the foot.

It's shoddy and it is "solving" a problem literally no one asked or wanted to have solved. They are in fact meant to use the "clear and obvious" rule, whereas what we have is to just go with whatever the var ref thinks it showed.