Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

B20

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It’s either off or on. It’s a fact.
No it's not. There is a margin of error for the software. It's this misconception that skews the whole thing. The software is not accurate enough to justify this type of decision-making.
 

sammsky1

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Because those tight tight decisions weren't an issue. It was glaring mistakes people wanted fixed.

No one would complain if they were given onside.
Everton might complain once they know. Every beneficiary will complain

At what point isn’t it glaring? Who decides? Why is 3cm more glaring than 1cm?

By all mean enjoy your moan but you know all of this.
 

sammsky1

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The technology has a 13 cm margin of error. That's in addition the arbitrary situation we have here where it seems they picked a frame where the ball had already left the foot.

It's shoddy and it is "solving" a problem literally no one asked or wanted to have solved. They are in fact meant to use the "clear and obvious" rule, whereas what we have is to just go with whatever the var ref thinks it showed.
Not true according to this season’s latest mandates.
You need to update yourself on the rules (see post above from @sullydnl )
 

sullydnl

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If people are complaining about anything from that game it should be the VAR not doing a red card check on Pickford's tackle. They rightly didn't give a penalty as it was offside but (apparently) that doesn't mean Pickford couldn't have been sent off, so there still should have been a separate check for that. Not doing so appears to have been an outright error on the VAR's part, unlike the offside calls which were correct within the rules.
 

TheGodsInRed

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The technology has a 13 cm margin of error. That's in addition the arbitrary situation we have here where it seems they picked a frame where the ball had already left the foot.

It's shoddy and it is "solving" a problem literally no one asked or wanted to have solved. They are in fact meant to use the "clear and obvious" rule, whereas what we have is to just go with whatever the var ref thinks it showed.
There is no clear and obvious rule for offside. You on or off. Do you have a reliable source for this 13cm margin? That's 5 inches! Seems highly unlikely.
 

sullydnl

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There is no clear and obvious rule for offside. You on or off. Do you have a reliable source for this 13cm margin? That's 5 inches! Seems highly unlikely.
Assume it's based on this

The problem with that calculation being that it assumes the player is running directly perpendicular to the offside line and it also assumes the PL use 50fps cameras for judging offside. Which seems unlikely to me given that Hawk-eye use 340fps cameras for tennis, cricket and goal-line technology. They've also used better cameras for judging offsides in other competitions, according to FIFA. Unless there's some weird technical reason why the PL specifically have to use worse cameras....

From what I've read there's a margin of error of up to 3.6mm on goal-line technology, so we can be sure it's at least more than that on offsides no matter how great their cameras are. How much more, I have no idea.
 
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cyberman

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Assume it's based on this

The problems with that calculation being that it assumes the player is running directly perpendicular to the offside line and it also assumes the PL use 50fps cameras for judging offside. Which seems unlikely to me given that Hawk-eye use 340fps cameras for tennis, cricket, goal-line technology and judging offsides in other competitions.

From what I've read there's a margin of error of up to 3.6mm on goal-line technology, so we can be sure it's at least more than that on offsides no matter how great their cameras are. How much more, I have no idea.
What we see is all they can broadcast. We cant actually see the rates that VAR uses.
 

Strats

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Just been watching a game in the swedish ice hockey league, where the referee made a massive mistake by not calling a goal off for offside.

The ref was interviewed by the tv-studio after the game and spoke about decision. Can't imagine this to ever happen in the prem.
 

sparx99

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Liverpool beat Sheffield United last season in the same way with millimeters determining the call. Karma this time. It's not the first time we've seen decisions like this, won't be the last. 1 millimeter offsides means offside.
It doesn't really agree with the spirit of the offside law. It was brought in to stop goal-hanging not 1mm advantage. For games with VAR they should implement a rule which says 'any part of the attacker onside then it is onside'. It would give attackers the advantage back.
 

hobbers

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The spirit of the offside law is totally forfeit with the rules as they are.

There's no advantage to the attacking player, at all. There's no excitement whenever anyone scores a goal any more because we all know there's going to be a 3 minute VAR check to confirm that yes, the top 0.5mm of his arm pit was indeed ahead of the play.

It's a disgusting farce right now, it really is.
 

sullydnl

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It doesn't really agree with the spirit of the offside law. It was brought in to stop goal-hanging not 1mm advantage. For games with VAR they should implement a rule which says 'any part of the attacker onside then it is onside'. It would give attackers the advantage back.
The two problems with that idea is that it wouldn't in any way eliminate mm offside calls and it would have massive knock-on effects in other areas as it's an enormous advantage to hand to attackers.

For example, in the case of a Man City free kick Sterling would be onside in this position:


Defences simply can not allow attackers to have that advantage, which means they would instead have to pack the box with defenders in such scenarios. Similarly, the high-line so many teams play with in open play would no longer be viable. So while it seems like it would give advantage to the attacker and add more goals, the knock-on effect would probably be much more defensive tactics within the game, which isn't something you want law changes to encourage.
 

kiristao

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Maybe they can just go with the "clear and obvious" bit for offsides as well.
Linesman gives his call and only if VAR sees that it's a clear an obvious error they change it.
Basically something that can be seen with the naked eye on the screen without drawing all these lines and checking for armpits, butt cheeks, etc. can be termed as an obvious error.
 

sullydnl

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Maybe they can just go with the "clear and obvious" bit for offsides as well.
Linesman gives his call and only if VAR sees that it's a clear an obvious error they change it.
Basically something that can be seen with the naked eye on the screen without drawing all these lines and checking for armpits, butt cheeks, etc. can be termed as an obvious error.
The A-league tried that for a bit but then changed to the crosshairs used in other leagues. The problem being that linesmen were getting plenty of decisions wrong and while VAR couldn't use those lines to correct the decisions, the TV companies could happily use their own lines and camera angles to highlight each and every bad decision, week in and week out. Which inevitably lead to fans complaining about how useless and biased VAR was, especially as they all had their own idea of what was a clear error to the naked eye, distorted as it was by the sort of misleading camera angles that have no effect on the PL's system.
 

90 + 5min

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It’s either off or on. It’s a fact.

Nothing ridiculous about it at all, just sour grapes and frustration from those to moan. I’ll also moan when it goes against my team but it’s not unfair.

cricket and tennis have gone through this transformation and no one complains about close calls anymore. Football needs to adjust quickly else it’s just wasted energy moaning about it.
It is not that easy. You are right that it is either off or on. When they decide or guess. But off can be on. And on can be off. It all depends where do they freeze the picture. Let us say that they freeze in a certain moment. Then you have to get it right where players are. Where exactly part of your body is. You can't draw lines like you are in kindergarden guessing all over place. Well, the FA have shown that you can. But it is shambolic, not professional and diabolic.

Apart from that, to not give Pickford straight red is beyond anything. You can't say "it was offside". First and most, it wasn't. Second, he still made horrific tackle.

Not the first game. And not the last.
 
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Maybe they can just go with the "clear and obvious" bit for offsides as well.
Linesman gives his call and only if VAR sees that it's a clear an obvious error they change it.
Basically something that can be seen with the naked eye on the screen without drawing all these lines and checking for armpits, butt cheeks, etc. can be termed as an obvious error.
It is difficult when using technology. You could in theory have a “thicker line” for want of a better phrase to give the attacker the advantage, but then at the limit of that line you are still going to be on or offsite by one Cm.

What actually works really well with VAR is linesman not making mm calls and allowing players to continue.

I think what VAR need to do is to show the evidence of offside. They presumably have more than what we see briefly as broadcast?

The debate with Liverpool today, is that is probably looks onside. But that’s us looking at a TV quickly. If they can show that he’s offside, even by a mm then there won’t be any complaints.
 

ROFLUTION

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Maybe they can just go with the "clear and obvious" bit for offsides as well.
Linesman gives his call and only if VAR sees that it's a clear an obvious error they change it.
Basically something that can be seen with the naked eye on the screen without drawing all these lines and checking for armpits, butt cheeks, etc. can be termed as an obvious error.
Clear and obvious is already broken imo. Hasnt worked out greatly in PL yet
 

arnie_ni

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Everton might complain once they know. Every beneficiary will complain

At what point isn’t it glaring? Who decides? Why is 3cm more glaring than 1cm?

By all mean enjoy your moan but you know all of this.
Its not really a moan as such, it couldnt have happened to a better team. Just think they're fixing something that wasnt broken there.
 

GaryLifo

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Sorry if this has been posted but Jordan Henderson has to face a charge for these comments doesn't he?

"It must be offside with VAR, it's what everyone wants," Henderson told BT Sport. "I think they bend the lines sometimes to make it offside. I'm not sure how they do it, I've seen it before."

He's basically saying the VAR officials cheat. That's a fine and a ban for anyone unless they're a Liverpool player obviously
 

Oo0AahCantona

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Sorry if this has been posted but Jordan Henderson has to face a charge for these comments doesn't he?

"It must be offside with VAR, it's what everyone wants," Henderson told BT Sport. "I think they bend the lines sometimes to make it offside. I'm not sure how they do it, I've seen it before."

He's basically saying the VAR officials cheat. That's a fine and a ban for anyone unless they're a Liverpool player obviously
If it happened to a united player we would be absolutely fuming with the decision. "Caf down" messages and all.
 

Jev

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If it wasn't Liverpool everyone in here would agree that the call was madness. No sane, unbiased person would defend that decision.
 

sullydnl

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If it wasn't Liverpool everyone in here would agree that the call was madness. No sane, unbiased person would defend that decision.
Which one? The Pickford tackle or the offside?

Because the offside decision was entirely in line with the rules and that will also be the case when (and it is a case of when) we get a similar decision against us. There's literally nothing the ref or VAR could do about it.

The Pickford tackle on the other hand.....

Henderson should be complaining about that, not offside calls that get applied consistently to everyone. Especially given that tackle may have done far more damage to Liverpool if VVD is indeed out injured for a while.
 
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Dave Smith

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I am drinking in the Dipper tears today, got to love it when things go against them. Especially, as when they do, they all forget about the things that went for them.

The offside call was obviously harsh, but we have seen similar things so I am not sure why their captain is complaining about marginal offsides now. The law clearly states that even 0.00001mm is offside, so you have to go with the technology, it is the same with balls over the line where you have to trust the technology rather than your eye.

As for the Pickford incident, that was actually a wrong decision. Whilst, yes it was not a penalty, it was serious foul play which warrents a red card like an elbow to a face when waiting for a set piece to be delivered. However, it appears the VAR official forgot this.
 

GaryLifo

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If it happened to a united player we would be absolutely fuming with the decision. "Caf down" messages and all.
Irrelevant. He's broken FA rules here. You are not allowed to accuse the match officials of cheating. That's what he's done. He should be cited and asked to explain his comments.
 

Sandikan

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Sorry if this has been posted but Jordan Henderson has to face a charge for these comments doesn't he?

"It must be offside with VAR, it's what everyone wants," Henderson told BT Sport. "I think they bend the lines sometimes to make it offside. I'm not sure how they do it, I've seen it before."

He's basically saying the VAR officials cheat. That's a fine and a ban for anyone unless they're a Liverpool player obviously
He was in particularly w@nkerish mode today wasn't he.
Trying to act a tough guy, moaning at Richarlison as he lay mashed on the floor, and this. He's a classic snide type who would run an absolute mile 1-2-1 v someone.
 

Sandikan

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I am drinking in the Dipper tears today, got to love it when things go against them. Especially, as when they do, they all forget about the things that went for them.

The offside call was obviously harsh, but we have seen similar things so I am not sure why their captain is complaining about marginal offsides now. The law clearly states that even 0.00001mm is offside, so you have to go with the technology, it is the same with balls over the line where you have to trust the technology rather than your eye.

As for the Pickford incident, that was actually a wrong decision. Whilst, yes it was not a penalty, it was serious foul play which warrents a red card like an elbow to a face when waiting for a set piece to be delivered. However, it appears the VAR official forgot this.
It was utterly glorious.
I wasn't on the cafe earlier, but I bet there was an almighty mass cursing. Knowing they'd stolen a win late on again.

Then, that utter glory of that decision.
However crap we are right now, that's made the weekend.
 

Jev

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Which one? The Pickford tackle or the offside?

Because the offside decision was entirely in line with the rules and that will also be the case when (and it is a case of when) we get a similar decision against us. There's literally nothing the ref or VAR could do about it.

The Pickford tackle on the other hand.....

Henderson should be complaining about that, not offside calls that get applied consistently to everyone. Especially given that tackle may have done far more damage to Liverpool if VVD is indeed out injured for a while.
Both, actually, but I was referring to the offside call. There's no frame showing without a shade of doubt that Mané was onside and it looks like it was even paused at the wrong time with the ball having left Thiago's foot. It's never a clear and obvious error and we should never rule out goals for that.
 

arnie_ni

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Which one? The Pickford tackle or the offside?

Because the offside decision was entirely in line with the rules and that will also be the case when (and it is a case of when) we get a similar decision against us. There's literally nothing the ref or VAR could do about it.

The Pickford tackle on the other hand.....

Henderson should be complaining about that, not offside calls that get applied consistently to everyone. Especially given that tackle may have done far more damage to Liverpool if VVD is indeed out injured for a while.
I said in another thread but after the game jenas was talking and he said the still they used for the mane offside it actually looked liked thiago had already passed the ball and they needed to go back a frame. I would need to see it again but it looked like he had a point.

That's part of the reason im not sure these tight calls an advantage shouldnt go to the attacker.

Does anyone know what technology, if any, they use to determine when the pass is made?
 

Oo0AahCantona

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I was so fully down for VAR and giving refs more help after lampards goal in Bloemfontein, but after seeing its implementation over the last few years id scrap it now other than goal line technology. There are just as many incidents still missed in games as before except now a lot of the nuance is being removed from the game because now there is an objective "reality" for every decision on the pitch, anything not picked up is deemed as acceptable, when in reality its just been missed or overlooked.
 

arnie_ni

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I was so fully down for VAR and giving refs more help after lampards goal in Bloemfontein, but after seeing its implementation over the last few years id scrap it now other than goal line technology. There are just as many incidents still missed in games as before except now a lot of the nuance is being removed from the game because now there is an objective "reality" for every decision on the pitch, anything not picked up is deemed as acceptable, when in reality its just been missed or overlooked.
Definitely wouldn't scrap it. Just think it will constantly need tweaking.

It wont ever be perfect
 

sullydnl

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I said in another thread but after the game jenas was talking and he said the still they used for the mane offside it actually looked liked thiago had already passed the ball and they needed to go back a frame. I would need to see it again but it looked like he had a point.

That's part of the reason im not sure these tight calls an advantage shouldnt go to the attacker.

Does anyone know what technology, if any, they use to determine when the pass is made?
As far as I'm aware the tech guy shows the VAR three frames at the point of contact. They VAR then chooses the first frame in which contact has been made with the ball. So the accuracy of that simply comes down to frame rates of the cameras they use, as it will usually be pretty clear when a frame shows contact has been made with the ball.
 

ajay1002

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The offside law definitely needs looking at. As glorious as it was to see it impact Liverpool, one day a similar decision is going to screw over Utd. Personally, I would alter this part of the law:

- (A player is in an offside position if) any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents' goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent

to:

- (A player is in an offside position if) the entirety of the head or a foot is nearer to the opponents' goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent
 

arnie_ni

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As far as I'm aware the tech guy shows the VAR three frames at the point of contact. They VAR then chooses the first frame in which contact has been made with the ball. So the accuracy of that simply comes down to frame rates of the cameras they use, as it will usually be pretty clear when a frame shows contact has been made with the ball.
Couldn't they have something in all the balls to "feel" contact? Seems like there is room for error in this method.

I realise im asking a question you probably cant answer in fairness.

Alwell, at least it happened to Liverpool, twice.
 
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arnie_ni

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The offside law definitely needs looking at. As glorious as it was to see it impact Liverpool, one day a similar decision is going to screw over Utd. Personally, I would alter this part of the law:

- (A player is in an offside position if) any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents' goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent

to:

- (A player is in an offside position if) the entirety of the head or a foot is nearer to the opponents' goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent
Your just shifting the tight call from one position to another.

It doesnt solve the issue
 

Andycoleno9

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Offside is offside. That is it. It is or it is not. Any talk about offside is ridiculous for me.
But how Pickford didn't got a red? He did the same tackle on WC on Mandzukic in semis. Exact tackle. Pickford is a huge prick
 

ajay1002

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Your just shifting the tight call from one position to another.

It doesnt solve the issue
I'm not trying to solve the issue of mm offside calls. The nature of the law means a line has to be drawn somewhere, at some point you go from being onside to being offside, even if it's by one mm. At least this would give some measure of advantage to the attacker and not disallow a goal because a toe, shoulder or nose is offside. I think people would be happier if they could see a whole body part being offside as the reason a call was given.
 
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GaryLifo

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He was in particularly w@nkerish mode today wasn't he.
Trying to act a tough guy, moaning at Richarlison as he lay mashed on the floor, and this. He's a classic snide type who would run an absolute mile 1-2-1 v someone.
Can't stand him. Roy Keane would have kicked him all over the park.
 

sparx99

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The two problems with that idea is that it wouldn't in any way eliminate mm offside calls and it would have massive knock-on effects in other areas as it's an enormous advantage to hand to attackers.

For example, in the case of a Man City free kick Sterling would be onside in this position:


Defences simply can not allow attackers to have that advantage, which means they would instead have to pack the box with defenders in such scenarios. Similarly, the high-line so many teams play with in open play would no longer be viable. So while it seems like it would give advantage to the attacker and add more goals, the knock-on effect would probably be much more defensive tactics within the game, which isn't something you want law changes to encourage.
In the case of not stopping mm offside calls I think most people would be happier if an offside was given because your whole body was offside. Whereas the call at the minute is if a minuscule fraction is offside.

Secondly, I’m happy for Sterling to be given onside in your example. I don’t think it would necessarily affect tactics as dramatically as you make out. In that Sterling example the defenders are trying to catch him offside. With the rule change they would have to go back with the attacker. It would allow defences to focus more on man-to-man defending rather than zonal and offside trap.
 

Sandikan

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Can't stand him. Roy Keane would have kicked him all over the park.
He's an absolute mediocrity who is lucky to play in a team that is an exceptional unit.

He'd look a mess anywhere else.