Very possibly. Ignoring the offside, its a definite pen. I'm just not sure how it works with the offside
Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion
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Don't think anybody knows how anything works with offside
It is without doubt the worst rule change in football history.
Such a good game. I'm considering not bothering going anymore.
Such a good game. I'm considering not bothering going anymore.
Carragher too busy shouting and Flemming to understand Neville's point.
They're both arguing the same thing though. They are both saying taking it from the shirt sleeve is stupid
Exactly, but carragher trying to argue with Neville because Neville is for technology, but he isn't for the rules. Carragher was saying Neville was saying he is and isn't for VAR.
Stonewall pen. Well before the ball was passed so no offside can be argued
Carragher was spot on.
Whenever anyone ever says "Your offside or your not" then you can show them this or the Bamford offsides...
Your offside because some idiot at a screen decided that's where your t-shirt line is...
What a load of bollocks.
Your offside because some idiot at a screen decided that's where your t-shirt line is...
What a load of bollocks.
It almost looked like they put the line on his elbow.
Not what he was arguing with Neville about. He was saying Neville was contradicting himself saying he was both for and against VAR. He was just repeatedly shouting over for Neville like the massive twat he is.
Also, didn't they draw the line on his head at one point? Which would be fair enough.
What was it anyone had against the 'daylight' rule again? How about all of your body is offside, otherwise you're level and so, onside? Just like all of the ball needs to cross the line. Simple solution or am I the simple one?
The pen wasn't a clear and obvious error?
It doesn't solve anything because you still have to draw a line. What if there's 1 cm of daylight? 2cm? 5cm? Can the technology accurately decide if there was 1cm of daylight? We'll just have the same complaints saying "that's surely not offside, I can't see any daylight there he looks level".
Sigh...so, fecked it is!
The quick fix is to go just on the feet (because it's much easier to pinpoint)... Not the arms or head or other shit, just the feet.
The second thing to do is give them one line and 20 seconds.
If they can't work it out, it's onside
The second thing to do is give them one line and 20 seconds.
If they can't work it out, it's onside
I have no issue with something being offside by a mm if they can guarantee they are picking the exact moment the ball leaves the boot and the can find the perfect point to draw the lines from.
The biggest problem with the "daylight" rule is that it never, ever existed. It's a weird myth that has somehow got lodged in people's minds.
As for making all your body offside, you could do that if you want but it wouldn't change anything in terms of mm decisions. You'd just be giving the attacker more of an advantage to balance that. Which is fine, unless managers then adjust by using deeper defensive lines that ultimately results in fewer goals.
From what I've read it would also make things more difficult for linesmen in leagues without VAR, as they apparently use shirt colour against shirt colour a lot in their decisions.
If the camera can show that a single piece of the attackers body is in line or behind the last piece of the defenders body while the ball is in contact with the passers foot, then he is onside.
Daylight is far, far easier to implement because it gives all of the benefit of the doubt to the attacker - the way it should be.
Offside was brought in to prevent goal hanging. Not for nerds in a porter cabin to draw diagrams from armpits.
Feet might make sense. At least then you'd have a consistent point to measure from.
They won't though as they're already moving towards a semi-automated system for the 2022 world cup, so they'll be banking on that fixing a lot of the problems.
It was a normal coming together according to VARThe pen wasn't a clear and obvious error?
And people wonder why the system is fecked. They have literal idiots running the bloody thing.
Yep. They should bring back "the benefit of the doubt goes to the attacker". Given the error associated with the frame rate of the camera if it's a few mm here or there they should just give it to the forward. Failing that you could go with whatever the "soft signal" is from the linesman. If he initially thought it was off and it's not obviously on then it stays as off and vice versa.
Has it ever been there?
Neville even called it before they came out and said itIt was a normal coming together according to VAR
And people wonder why the system is fecked. They have literal idiots running the bloody thing.
It was never daylight intepretation apparently although was talked about at different stages.
That's still a far more logical way of calling offside than what we've been getting for last 18 months though.
Simple short term solution is anything that can't be decided after a minute looking at it should be given the goal (or ref should be called over for a look himself and hopefully use a common sense approach). Tonight was over 2 minutes like many other offsides.
I get the feeling the intepretation for offside isn't called as harshly in other euro leagues but could be wrong on that.
Yeah I think it should be the feet. You're not really gaining an "advantage' from anything else IMO
Yep. Using this example, yes his arm is offside but if he doesn't move his feet to get to the ball he won't score. Its all about the feet, should be the deciding factor. Youll still have mm calls but at least everyone could accept the starting position.
They're still going to have to draw lines for the daylight rule, deciding whether there's any part of the attacker that's level with defender is just the same predicament they find themselves in now where they need to draw accurate lines for both the defender's and attacker's "active" body part that will determine the offside, and ensure they've chosen the right frame where the ball is kicked.
If you're suggesting "if it's too close to call, it's onside" then that's something completely different, that could be implemented under the current rules.
I'm also not sure what the effects of the daylight rule would be on the game, defenders can never truely be goal side when they're defending unless they drop ridiculously deep.
The issue with this is it opens up for further levels of inconsistency and accusations of bias. Who decides what sufficient levels of doubt is? If one week VAR reckons a player is maybe 10cm off but it's too close so call it onside, what happens the next week when they rule out a goal that's similarly close? The team who have their goal ruled out won't be happy and neither will the fans, and you can bet there will be cries of corruption from the fans. If 10cm is an acceptable leeway what about 11cm? 12cm?
I don't feel like people in this post really understand how difficult measurements and precision is. If you made it a "daylight" rule, people would be fuming that a Liverpool example was not ruled daylight, while a United example was. Fine margins will always happen, no matter where you draw the line. Same thing with implementing a "20 second time limit". In one example they will get the decision done in under 20 seconds, and in another example they won't. And it could even be the same example.
Hence I put daylight in quotation marks. I know it wasn't an official rule but we also know the linos were using that to adjudicate offsides not that long ago. Yeah the risk of arguing over mm might still exist, but daylight or feet only would be a better frame of reference in my opinion.
That's why the "soft signal" works well in cricket. Linesman give his initial opinion, they check (could even have a Lino's call line overlaid on the screen) if it's not super clear that he was wrong they go with his original decision. End of the day the rules have always been about someone's judgement, that's why trying to make things black and white doesn't really work.
for me Var will never really work as football has to many subjective calls, its not like the goal line tech which is over or it ain't, even some of the offside decisions look different from certain angles, so which angle do you decide to draw the line ? For me it should be for clear and obvious errors, an off the ball incident or a player is a yard off etc but if your drawing lines that ain't accurate it wont work, Some of the decisions this year have actually been terrible, a used to watch almost every live game in the prem, now if its not United I don't usually bother as you no VAR will change the outcome of the game and not for the right reasons.
Thats the exact same issue I have with offside calls. They need to specify the moment the frame needs to be taken, and they need to make use of more than 1 frame. Either way, the argumant will just move, and people will never be happy. I just want it to go back to Attackers having the benefit of the doubt.
There's a good thread here on what the Dutch are doing with regard to margin of error. It's apparently what the PL wanted to do and it's not perfect either.
This offside thing will be an absolute ball ache to get right but I think it will improve.
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This offside thing will be an absolute ball ache to get right but I think it will improve.
Margin of error is just ridiculous. Next , a decision will be on “margin of error” and a new margin of error required.
Accempt the technology is getting offsides correct down to tiny margins which is a massive improvement on before.
As others have said, ad nauseum, the spirit of the offside is to prevent goal-hanging.
The rule wasn't brought in to decide if one player's armpit was half a millimetre ahead of another player's eyelash.
Did you actually bother to read the thread by the way?
I’ve read most of this thread and I’m only trying to present my dismay at the VAR / offside comments. VAR is now getting decisions correct down to tiny margins. I don’t know why this cannot be accepted now as before there were glaring linesman errors which we no longer have. I understand your point about “armpit /eyelash” but there has to be a binary decision based on the technology. Margin of error (and MOTD common sense) does not stop the binary decision of on or offside but just moves it. If daylight is the rule then it would be a shirt sleeve was overlapping.
I just think it should be accepted as is and not the main talking point of every match.
Goal line tech seems to be accepted but has the same accuracy spec. and fallibility.
I meant the twitter thread.
I think goal line technology is a different thing altogether and there's no issue there obviously.
It's the spirit of the offside law that isn't being served by the current laws.
Breakdown of offside calls and how they would be impacted by the Dutch margin of error.
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I reckon a lot of the ones that fall outside that MOE would still garner complaints.