Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

[RUCK4444]

One thing I would say is that the introduction of VAR has made me realise how many offsides I would have called wrong when watching at home.

Take the below Salah offside, for example. Pre-VAR I would have been certain his knee was offside, when in reality the camera perspective is misleading.

Spoiler

I've also come to realise I know way less about the rules of football than I would have assumed I did. I think a lot of the decisions we wouldn't have complained about would have been based in ignorance as much as acceptance.

In regards to the tech though, the good news is that they'll be introducing a more accurate and quicker GPS system in the coming years anyway.

Yeah agree with that but it sort of confirms my feelings that a LOT of these marginal offsides or silly handballs etc didn't need to be brought into the game. For arguments sake if the situation in that screenshot is reversed and Salah's knee was marginally offside and he scores a goal pre-VAR then literally none of us would be up in arms - would we? We would perhaps mention it looks tight etc, but I wouldn't be devastated over that.

I think we've taken a lot away from the game just to be pedantic about a few centimetres, for calls we wouldn't have been necessarily up in arms about previously.

 

[arnie_ni]

VAR only steps in regarding fouls if it's in the lead up to a goal, a red card or a penalty.

I know. But easy mistakes like that should be over ruled immediately. It wouldnt take long

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Although reducing the compactness would make the game more open and end-to-end, for me that would be offset by the ball getting slung into the mixer multiple times a game in the hope of a lucky break in the chaos that ensues.

I don’t see the upside as reducing compactness though. The upside is getting rid of all offside controversy permanently. I think you might be right about aimless punts towards the opposition box but it’s not as though offside prevents this, as we saw in the last few minutes of every match whenever we were chasing a result with Fellaini in the team.

 

[Gio]

I don’t see the upside as reducing compactness though. The upside is getting rid of all offside controversy permanently. I think you might be right about aimless punts towards the opposition box but it’s not as though offside prevents this, as we saw in the last few minutes of every match whenever we were chasing a result with Fellaini in the team.

True. It's just you cannot use the defensive line to prevent that from happening anymore. So basically for certain teams any long-ball opportunity within 80 yards of the opposition goal could end up like the tangled-body-battlefield you used to get after a Rory Delap throw-in in the final third.

Personally I see the offside controversy as fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. Within a small margin of error, it is one of the few black-and-white decisions in the game. At the moment it's not the rule that's the problem, it's the pedantic and painfully slow way it's been managed that's driving frustration.

 

[kouroux]

Offside is a tricky one, for me they should be left to the officials because we don't have the technology to definitively prove offside to the smallest possible margin (which is what we bizarrely set as the target for ourselves), so we are having to rely on referees interpretation anyway.

Personally I would remove offside and handball from what is reviewed by VAR. Put the responsibility back on the officials for those.

I appreciate the latter would effectively render VAR useless, but it would improve the game entertainment from where we are now. No doubt about that in my mind.

If you look at the vast majority of goals disallowed by VAR, I believe that prior to VAR very few of them would we have been that unhappy about being given... Let's use the Bruno goal that was disallowed against Newcastle as an example, Mata is slightly offside when he plays the return pass for Bruno to smash it top bins. Now personally, if that goal was allowed against me if I were a Newcastle fan, I would not have been up in arms about it. If Mata were a few inches further forward he would have played the same pass and it would have had the same result, it served no benefit to us as the attacking team for Mata to be slightly offside in that move.

To me that's a prime example of an excellent goal being chalked off for the sake of it, because with this technology we've now bound/committed ourselves to take every rule to the furthest. possible. degree. When the reality is, prior to VAR, we wouldn't have thought that was a disgraceful decision to miss that offside and for the goal to stand. And it works both ways, we've had the rub of the green with VAR as well as anybody, it just doesn't sit right with me, I don't think it A) Improves the game. B) Get's everything correct.

I think there would still be enough opportunities to use it in your scenario. The use of VAR has to be limited and carefully managed IMHO. It's a tool but used by absolute tools.

 

[RUCK4444]

I think there would still be enough opportunities to use it in your scenario. The use of VAR has to be limited and carefully managed IMHO. It's a tool but used by absolute tools.

Yeah exactly, I’m not totally against technology in the game but IMHO it should not, in any way, impact on the entertainment value in the game.

It’s certainly done that, when you think about it, every game is tainted with its overwhelming influence, not in a good way. I can’t see it getting better without limiting its influence.

 

[Steven7290]

How about adopting American Sport system, giving each team 3 chances to challenge REF decision. You get one right, you benefit but if you get it wrong, you lose one chance and is left with the only one for the rest of the match. This will limit unnecessary stoppings in play and teams have to think twice when they want to protest a decision.

 

[mattsville]

I think there would still be enough opportunities to use it in your scenario. The use of VAR has to be limited and carefully managed IMHO. It's a tool but used by absolute tools.

Yep, at the end of the day it is meant to correct human errors by refs but in reality you still have have humans making errors either not invoking it when it should be and even when reviewing there have been incorrect decisions. It was brought in as there is so much money involved now and correct decisions are extremely important but look at bournemouth, they got relegated because hawkeye failed and even though the replays showed the ball over the line var did nothing about it, the biggest thing though is it sucks the joy out of the majority of goals scored, every time a goal is scored you can't celebrate yet. Even those extremely marginal offside calls that are technically correct because somebody's toe or hand was offside, it made no difference to the sequence of play in terms of the attacker trying to gain an advantage and some great goals are being disallowed. When you have retired referees like clattenberg openly admitting that he gave teams nothing after a player or the fans gave him shit it is not different with var, you have people who could have a bias and decide not to invoke what was a clear and legitimate use of the technology.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

My suggestion about offsides (sorry if someone has posted the same/similar).

I think they should adjust the rule so that the attacker's whole body has to be offside. Similar to goal line where all of the ball must cross all of line. If any part of the attacker is onside, the goal counts.

This will favour attacker's and result in more goals scored and less tight ones chalked off. I think decisions from VAR will be quicker this way too because it's more obvious to determine if a player's whole body is offside. There will still be tight calls but far fewer long waits.

I think this would be better than the current model and definitely better than scrapping offsides all together.

 

[Fitchett]

How can Michael Oliver and VAR not give a red card to Ashley Barnes? Led with his elbow, caught Alderweireld in the face, cut above his eye. Lengthy delay whilst patched up.

Nothing given, while Martial serves a three match ban ......

 

[calodo2003]

How about adopting American Sport system, giving each team 3 chances to challenge REF decision. You get one right, you benefit but if you get it wrong, you lose one chance and is left with the only one for the rest of the match. This will limit unnecessary stoppings in play and teams have to think twice when they want to protest a decision.

I somewhat agree, but there needs to be a penalty that would be meted out for unsuccessful challenges (perhaps the challenge is done to allow one’s own team to rest a bit in a spell of play that is against them, for example). In American football, a time-out is taken away; what could be the similar in football?

Conversely, there needs to be something awarded if all the challenges are correct, but what would those rewards be? Another challenge could add unnecessary more minutes to a match.

Something like the American challenge system does need to be looked at, though.

 

[sullydnl]

According to IFAB 69.1% of matches don't require a VAR review and only about 5.5% required two or more. So it's worth bearing in mind that any challenge system you can think of would result in an increase in VAR reviews. You would also need to come up with ways to prevent them being used tactically. And given all decisions are looked at as is, there would only ever be a slight difference in outcomes for individual decisions between the two systems. But it would lead to more variance generally.

So I'm not sure why you'd go down that route really.

 

[giorno]

This will favour attacker's and result in more goals scored and less tight ones chalked off.

It won't though. It will result in teams discarding the offside trap, making high pressing untenable as a tactic and force us back into the dark ages of the 90s, with teams forced to break down parked buses to score, counterattacking teams doing really well followed by everyone being too afraid of it to actually attack

 

[sullydnl]

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[MikeeMike]

My suggestion about offsides (sorry if someone has posted the same/similar).

I think they should adjust the rule so that the attacker's whole body has to be offside. Similar to goal line where all of the ball must cross all of line. If any part of the attacker is onside, the goal counts.

This will favour attacker's and result in more goals scored and less tight ones chalked off. I think decisions from VAR will be quicker this way too because it's more obvious to determine if a player's whole body is offside. There will still be tight calls but far fewer long waits.

I think this would be better than the current model and definitely better than scrapping offsides all together.

In principle a good idea but simply moves the problem to when an attackers trailing boot is a cm behind defenders (for example).
VAR tech has limited resolution and frame rate so the best fit frame is used.
For offside I cant think of how to improve but currently VAR is killing (fans) goal celebrations. It is now a case of looking at referee to touch his earpiece and signal review.

I’ve often thought what would happen without offside rule but can’t quite get my head around it. I just envisage more long ball style tactics.

 

[Steven7290]

I somewhat agree, but there needs to be a penalty that would be meted out for unsuccessful challenges (perhaps the challenge is done to allow one’s own team to rest a bit in a spell of play that is against them, for example). In American football, a time-out is taken away; what could be the similar in football?

Conversely, there needs to be something awarded if all the challenges are correct, but what would those rewards be? Another challenge could add unnecessary more minutes to a match.

Something like the American challenge system does need to be looked at, though.

How about a sub? we also have three of them

 

[kouroux]

Yep, at the end of the day it is meant to correct human errors by refs but in reality you still have have humans making errors either not invoking it when it should be and even when reviewing there have been incorrect decisions. It was brought in as there is so much money involved now and correct decisions are extremely important but look at bournemouth, they got relegated because hawkeye failed and even though the replays showed the ball over the line var did nothing about it, the biggest thing though is it sucks the joy out of the majority of goals scored, every time a goal is scored you can't celebrate yet. Even those extremely marginal offside calls that are technically correct because somebody's toe or hand was offside, it made no difference to the sequence of play in terms of the attacker trying to gain an advantage and some great goals are being disallowed. When you have retired referees like clattenberg openly admitting that he gave teams nothing after a player or the fans gave him shit it is not different with var, you have people who could have a bias and decide not to invoke what was a clear and legitimate use of the technology.

We've already seen that tbh.

 

[Bobcat]

I think there would still be enough opportunities to use it in your scenario. The use of VAR has to be limited and carefully managed IMHO. It's a tool but used by absolute tools.

This. The technology is fine, its its application that is the problem

Offside calls where the attacking player has a finger offside and ridiculous handball calls adds nothing to the game.

Meanwhile, shit that it should have picked up like Pickfords nasty challenge and Lamela being a cnut vs us gets overlooked. The big positive with VAR though is how it deals with penalty calls. Defenders know they cant get away with shirt pulling and other dirty tricks any longer and i've seen a lot less obvious dives from attackers once VAR was introduced.

 

[RashyForPM]

I’m gonna be honest and say I love VAR now because we are benefitting the most from it. Sounds immoral but it’s true. VAR or no VAR, I want what’s best for United. Also, Liverpool have been screwed over two weeks in a row. What’s not to like?

The day we stop getting VAR penalties and beneficial calls like the Azpi one will be the day I become colder towards it, yes.

Don’t get United fans complaining about it. You wouldn’t complain if a bird dropped £50 on the ground for you would you?

 

[Longshanks]

This. The technology is fine, its its application that is the problem

Offside calls where the attacking player has a finger offside and ridiculous handball calls adds nothing to the game.

Meanwhile, shit that it should have picked up like Pickfords nasty challenge and Lamela being a cnut vs us gets overlooked. The big positive with VAR though is how it deals with penalty calls. Defenders know they cant get away with shirt pulling and other dirty tricks any longer and i've seen a lot less obvious dives from attackers once VAR was introduced.

A degree of common sense needs to applied to the offside and handball rule something that's seems to be lacking in referees.

I don't understand why that don't have a margin of error with offside, for instance if it's not obvious with a still frame and a straight line then simply go with the linesmans decision. VAR wasn't bought in to decide if someone is a few mm offside it was bought in to rectify obvious mistakes.

VAR should be used for simulation aswell, contantsly checking for it and if there is any obvious cases the perpetrator can be booked at a break in play wouldn't even affect the flow of the game. After a while you would see players staying on there feet more not trying to buy free kicks from the slightest brushes.

 

[kouroux]

This. The technology is fine, its its application that is the problem

Offside calls where the attacking player has a finger offside and ridiculous handball calls adds nothing to the game.

Meanwhile, shit that it should have picked up like Pickfords nasty challenge and Lamela being a cnut vs us gets overlooked. The big positive with VAR though is how it deals with penalty calls. Defenders know they cant get away with shirt pulling and other dirty tricks any longer and i've seen a lot less obvious dives from attackers once VAR was introduced.

Stuff like that still not being punished with VAR makes my blood boil. They waste so much time if a player is offside by few mms while some can get away with cheating and career threatening tackles. It doesn't make sense. The real priorities have been lost somewhere.

 

[JuriM]

It will be Mike Dean on our Sunday game vs Arsenal I am waiting for a meme of a result

 

[SadlerMUFC]

There have been a few decisions that have been 100% wrong for me and that's inexcusable. And I'm not talking about the handballs that piss us all off because the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I'm talking about calls that VAR got wrong.

The first was Pickford on VVD. Obviously being a United supporter I'm not that upset about it, but that should have been a red card. It wouldn't be a penalty because the offside would negate that, but that doesn't change that fact that the "tackle" was definitely SFP. To think that Martial is sitting out 3 games for his "slap" while Pickford got no punishment for that tackle a shocking.

The second is in that same game. Liverpool's match winner at the end of the game that was ruled off for offside. Again, I'm not really upset by it, but the images I've seen show Mane's arm in an offside position. The rest of his body is even with the Everton defender. According to the laws of the game, only parts of your body that you can play the ball with can be offside, so an arm doesn't count. Another head scratcher that seemed to be called off for no reason at all.

The last was Arsenal's goal against Leicester that was called back for offside. They said the Arsenal player was offside because he was interfering with Schmeichaels view. Replays showed that wasn't true at all and that the keepers view wasn't obstructed at all. I understand why the linesman raised his flag on the play, because from his angle it may have seemed that way. But replays clearly showed that to be incorrect yet they didn't even look at it.

 

[sullydnl]

There have been a few decisions that have been 100% wrong for me and that's inexcusable. And I'm not talking about the handballs that piss us all off because the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I'm talking about calls that VAR got wrong.

The first was Pickford on VVD. Obviously being a United supporter I'm not that upset about it, but that should have been a red card. It wouldn't be a penalty because the offside would negate that, but that doesn't change that fact that the "tackle" was definitely SFP. To think that Martial is sitting out 3 games for his "slap" while Pickford got no punishment for that tackle a shocking.

The second is in that same game. Liverpool's match winner at the end of the game that was ruled off for offside. Again, I'm not really upset by it, but the images I've seen show Mane's arm in an offside position. The rest of his body is even with the Everton defender. According to the laws of the game, only parts of your body that you can play the ball with can be offside, so an arm doesn't count. Another head scratcher that seemed to be called off for no reason at all.

The last was Arsenal's goal against Leicester that was called back for offside. They said the Arsenal player was offside because he was interfering with Schmeichaels view. Replays showed that wasn't true at all and that the keepers view wasn't obstructed at all. I understand why the linesman raised his flag on the play, because from his angle it may have seemed that way. But replays clearly showed that to be incorrect yet they didn't even look at it.

The rules for handball have changed. You can now play the ball with the upper part of your arm (see graphic below), which means that part of the arm is now used for offside calls.

Spoiler

As for the Arsenal offside, they have to judge the effect Xhaka had on Schmeichel and Justin. If Xhaka's presence could (not would) have impacted on Justin's ability to clear the ball then it's also an offside, in which case the decision here is correct. A good reference point is the Everton offside against us last year, which was also the correct call.

You're right about the Pickford challenge though, that was a feck up.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

The rules for handball have changed. You can now play the ball with the upper part of your arm (see graphic below), which means that part of the arm is now used for offside calls.

Spoiler

As for the Arsenal offside, they have to judge the effect Xhaka had on Schmeichel and Justin. If Xhaka's presence could (not would) have impacted on Justin's ability to clear the ball then it's also an offside, in which case the decision here is correct. A good reference point is the Everton offside against us last year, which was also the correct call.

You're right about the Pickford challenge though, that was a feck up.

Thanks for the explanation on the new handball rule. I'm usually up to date on these things but with my season cancelled this year I haven't been. That makes total sense now.

As for the Arsenal goal, I think that's more of someone looking for a reason why it didn't stand as opposed to why it didn't. They didn't even look at VAR for it. They just went with the linesman's call. It definitely should have stood. Mind you, nothing makes me happier than to see gooners whine, so I'm good with the call

 

[RUCK4444]

I’m gonna be honest and say I love VAR now because we are benefitting the most from it. Sounds immoral but it’s true. VAR or no VAR, I want what’s best for United. Also, Liverpool have been screwed over two weeks in a row. What’s not to like?

The day we stop getting VAR penalties and beneficial calls like the Azpi one will be the day I become colder towards it, yes.

Don’t get United fans complaining about it. You wouldn’t complain if a bird dropped £50 on the ground for you would you?

It won’t last though will it. It’s a mess.

The whole fact some clubs are feeling totally hard done by and we aren’t shows the ‘fairness’ it was supposed to bring hasn’t been realised.

 

[Bobski]

An amusing aspect of VAR is how it has pierced some of the conspiracies of big clubs getting all the decisions because of corruption and favouritism. It turns out, and it should be to the surprise of no-one rational, that big clubs, or top teams to be more precise, generally benefit more from VAR than everyone else.

 

[sullydnl]

An amusing aspect of VAR is how it has pierced some of the conspiracies of big clubs getting all the decisions because of corruption and favouritism. It turns out, and it should be to the surprise of no-one rational, that big clubs, or top teams to be more precise, generally benefit more from VAR than everyone else.

Last season the PL teams who most benefitted from VAR overturns were:

Brighton (+8)
Manchester United (+7)
Palace (+4)
Burnley (+3)
Newcastle (+3)
Southampton (+3)

 

[MikeeMike]

How about adopting American Sport system, giving each team 3 chances to challenge REF decision. You get one right, you benefit but if you get it wrong, you lose one chance and is left with the only one for the rest of the match. This will limit unnecessary stoppings in play and teams have to think twice when they want to protest a decision.

in principle but hard to see how it would work. The manager has 3 challenges? Or a player.

 

[MikeeMike]

A degree of common sense needs to applied to the offside and handball rule something that's seems to be lacking in referees.

I don't understand why that don't have a margin of error with offside, for instance if it's not obvious with a still frame and a straight line then simply go with the linesmans decision. VAR wasn't bought in to decide if someone is a few mm offside it was bought in to rectify obvious mistakes.

VAR should be used for simulation aswell, contantsly checking for it and if there is any obvious cases the perpetrator can be booked at a break in play wouldn't even affect the flow of the game. After a while you would see players staying on there feet more not trying to buy free kicks from the slightest brushes.

Sorry to disagree again , “margin of error” is not logical at all. If a player is a cm offside he is offside. Bringing vagaries such as common sense or margin of error creates chaos.

Agree with using it for simulation though. The shocking cheating seen in recent games is actually embarrassing to watch.

 

[Steven7290]

in principle but hard to see how it would work. The manager has 3 challenges? Or a player.

the whole team, so the manager ultimately. He's the one with the screen also. But instead of time outs being taken away if the challenge is ruled incorrect, we can take 1 sub away. it's valuable enough that it would minimize the amount of challenges teams would consider worth it, but also give them a chance.

 

[Steven7290]

A degree of common sense needs to applied to the offside and handball rule something that's seems to be lacking in referees.

I don't understand why that don't have a margin of error with offside, for instance if it's not obvious with a still frame and a straight line then simply go with the linesmans decision. VAR wasn't bought in to decide if someone is a few mm offside it was bought in to rectify obvious mistakes.

While that sounds reasonable it would just result in more goals being accepted. if the margin of error is introduced, people would still feel this injustice in instances the attacker has his boot 1cm outside of the margin. And if the margin is big enough that it is so obvious the linesman can see, there would be no point in VAR anymore would it?

 

[Longshanks]

While that sounds reasonable it would just result in more goals being accepted. if the margin of error is introduced, people would still feel this injustice in instances the attacker has his boot 1cm outside of the margin. And if the margin is big enough that it is so obvious the linesman can see, there would be no point in VAR anymore would it?

Sorry to disagree again , “margin of error” is not logical at all. If a player is a cm offside he is offside. Bringing vagaries such as common sense or margin of error creates chaos.

Agree with using it for simulation though. The shocking cheating seen in recent games is actually embarrassing to watch.

The margin of error is because the technology itself must have a margin of error. We cant rely on the technology to get the extremely tight calls right and to be honest where is the advantage to the attacker in having a little toe offside etc. The offside law was bought in to stop goal hanging, and stop attackers having obvious advantages by behind the defensive line.

There was plenty of bad offside calls before VAR, we still need it to stop the bad calls and mistakes, but not to tell us someone was 2cm behind the defensive line that we are not sure is that accurate.

 

[SilentWitness]

We have had 3 games in a row now where the refereeing/VAR performances have been crap - we've also been on the end of favourable and non-favourable decisions in both now. It's just not right. They need to have a massive overhaul/investigation into the current standards.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I don't understand why that incident on Matic wasn't looked at at all. Looked a penalty on the one replay we saw, but even if it wasn't, we've seen lesser incidents micro-analysed.

 

[arnie_ni]

Gif of the chelsea pen anyone?

 

[WeePat]

Gif of the chelsea pen anyone?

It was a bit of a car crash couple of minutes for this ref. It wasn't a pen so that was bad enough but he then compounded matters by sending the lad off which essentially ruined the game.

 

[arnie_ni]

It was a bit of a car crash couple of minutes for this ref. It wasn't a pen so that was bad enough but he then compounded matters by sending the lad off which essentially ruined the game.

Awh flip me, how can that be handball?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

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Could be the worst VAR call yet

 

[Berbasbullet]

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Could be the worst VAR call yet

I mean how do they even justify that? He completely missed the ball?!