Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion
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Shaw, in post match, said the ref didn't give the pen because it would create an uproar. Not very logical thinking from the ref there...
You cannot be a consequentialist about this in the most crude way. Once this notion that 'the on field ref is the main referee for a reason' took root, and that VAR shouldn't be used to 'undermine his authority', it was made plain, that these sorts of decisions will not ever be overturned (by VAR alone). The best they could have done is point him to what he might have overlooked based on video evidence, which is what they have done. If you think that was a penalty, then they have very much done their job, whereas he has not.
But of course, this sort of conclusion doesn't map itself well to the whole 'VAR is ruining my life, make it stop' spiel, spouted with unremitting ardor, after every decision.
But of course, this sort of conclusion doesn't map itself well to the whole 'VAR is ruining my life, make it stop' spiel, spouted with unremitting ardor, after every decision.
Great interview by Ole. Understandably fuming and spot on.
Tuchel in being a dickhead shocker. Seen the replays and says it's greenwood who handballed it. Annoys the shit out of me when they can't accept they were wrong.
It sums up how clear a penalty it is that the opposition manager has to pretend that the handball didn’t happen at all rather than try and come up with a logical argument.
Another example of why we should be able to hear the referee's conversation with VAR, as works so evidently well in rugby. We'd know exactly how he interpreted the incident, his reasoning for not giving the penalty and what he said to the players afterwards.
We still might not agree with the decision but there should be clarity on why it was made.
We still might not agree with the decision but there should be clarity on why it was made.
I feel VAR is putting way too much emphasis on referee decisions instead of the actual football. It is making football almost a sideshow.
In the end, what does VAR add to the game? Football is watched for entertainment, and VAR takes away from that. Less football is being played than ever with some decisions taking up to 5 minutes, which are never recovered in extra time. There is more discussion than ever about referees and decisions rather than the actual game.
I don't even get excited for goals now because you know a VAR check is on the way. By the time that is done the moment is gone.
It has made offsides far too finicky. Now, even millimetres are being checked. It is just boring. I don't give a crap whether a player is offside because they forgot to cut their finger nails.
VAR's introduction has made football worse.
In the end, what does VAR add to the game? Football is watched for entertainment, and VAR takes away from that. Less football is being played than ever with some decisions taking up to 5 minutes, which are never recovered in extra time. There is more discussion than ever about referees and decisions rather than the actual game.
I don't even get excited for goals now because you know a VAR check is on the way. By the time that is done the moment is gone.
It has made offsides far too finicky. Now, even millimetres are being checked. It is just boring. I don't give a crap whether a player is offside because they forgot to cut their finger nails.
VAR's introduction has made football worse.
Disgusting decision from Atwell there as I believe he bottled it fearing uproar from Chelsea players. It’s not only the Chelsea players but their fans on Twitter too claiming that it also touched Mason’s arm. How in the world would you see that and conclude that “it also touched Greenwood’s arm?”
Actually, CHO is a chicken and not a human, so this position is very natural for him. No pen! Bawk bawk!
I'm honestly fine if that's never a penalty. CHO clearly handles it but only slightly after Greenwood's arm strikes his arm in a context in which the two players are using their arms to jostle for position. I don't think its intentional nor do I think he gains a real advantage with the touch itself.
I can see why United supporters would be angry because there is no consistency in the refereeing and we can all think of instances when a penalty was rewarded for an even more dubious handball but in a vacuum the game is better off if these kind of awkward incidental handling situations are not rewarded by giving one side a penalty that is going to produce a match-altering goal 90% of the time.
I can see why United supporters would be angry because there is no consistency in the refereeing and we can all think of instances when a penalty was rewarded for an even more dubious handball but in a vacuum the game is better off if these kind of awkward incidental handling situations are not rewarded by giving one side a penalty that is going to produce a match-altering goal 90% of the time.
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I’ve been saying that these types of handball should be given as an indirect free-kick.
A penalty should be awarded for deliberate handball or if the handball stops a shot on target.
As the rules are written (unnatural position etc) it should be given as a penalty but the punishment feels far too harsh for what looks like an accidental handball.
Completely agree. Give the referee the discretion to give the indirect under these circumstances and you have a fair outcome where the punishment fits the crime. Its still a decent set piece chance but not a near automatic goal.
Not just the penalty VAR farce today, but what really pissed me off was that several times we had a player hacked down (James mainly) whilst breaking. Waving play on isn't always an advantage when one of your attackers has been taken out. To compound things, Attwell didn't even go back and book the offenders, whilst both Fred and Maguire were booked for innocuous first fouls.
Whilst I totally agree on the James point... Freds booking certainly wasn't innocuous! Full on scissor tackle they the back the madman.
Yeah it was a definite yellow. Although if Fred had been a bit more of a cheating prick he could easily have got Mount sent off, who kicked out at him when he was on the ground.
I had to laugh when Neville and Tyler stayed dead silent when Mount was shown being a naughty boy. I wonder if it had been a non-English player...
I thought so, Greenwoods arm is pushing Hudson-Odoi's onto the ball. No pen.
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This is what we should be hearing live for these type of decisions. And even the A-league don't do that. But releasing it after the game as they (sometimes) do would be a start.
Just as in rugby, it would make everything so much clearer.
I don’t understand this and I’m pissed by your submission. Does CHO not have control over his body? How does a slight touch from Mason become an excuse for him to handle the ball in the 18 yard box?
I dont even think todays ref was especially bad compared to recent matches.. After 4 / 5 games in the last month with shit refereeing being the primary deciding factor in a restult i've just run out of patience. His dog shit reasoning of avoiding controversy doesn't help my mood mind you.
Are you saying we should be giving penalties for when someone's hand is nudged towards the balls!? The photo is right there showing Greenwoods influenced Odoi's movement towards the ball. Nothing more to say.
OK, maybe Fred warranted a yellow, as did several Chelsea players, but Maguire certainly didn't.
Its not the handball that made him bad its the fact that Chelsea escaped at least 3 yellow cards for clear fouls on James, with two of them early in the game. Now its not just this ref that has this problem but these sort of fouls that break up play are a stain on the game and means that teams who rather play direct football and not possession based are at a huge disadvantage. Chilwell should have been on a yellow within 10 minutes of the game and that changes how he can defend from there on in.
If its not a foul its a pen and Greenwoods arm doesnt push the hand up. Look again.
Get rid
Is it just me who would have liked to see a few more replays of that Liverpool goal? The distance shot from the best angle looked clearly out of play. The foreshortened one from a worse angle looked like it was just in play. Decision made near instantly.
They showed it on Sky. Pretty clearly in play.
The really sad part about this is isn't even the first absolutely blatant stonewall penalty that VAR has ignored/not given.
I'd agree but they always have the out of letting the game flow and allowing some force. Which in principle i think is a good thing but you've picked out how every second team in the league has learned to exploit that. The handball cost us the points, its the one he had video evidence for, its a pretty bad decision all on its own
Its the referees ignoring it, isn't it?
If that's the case surely the way VAR is setup also should face critique. Don't see why there should be an allowance to "make up your own mind" in some cases.
The Brighton freekick yesterday was a total disgrace btw. What a farce VAR is.
Whats worrying me is they're taking VAR footage at full value.
I thought Maguire v West Brom wasnt a pen but Harry swore that it wasnt just the arm on the shoulder but he clipped his legs as well. Thats where the foul was but because it wasnt clear on tv then they dont give it, even though he already blew for a pen. Combine the two and its a pen imo.
Shouldnt they take a sort of statement from the fouled player and look to see if they can spot it? From what i remember of the review, it was all far away shots.
FA should investigate if he said anything to Maguire about the penalty.
That a clear penalty.
That a clear penalty.
They're a team in my opinion....they succeed and (mostly) failed as one.
The VAR official shouldn't have even recommend the need to watch it back... But since he has, there is no way you should let a ref leave that monitor without making sure he is aware of the rules and making the correct call.
Problem with that though is players will probably lie/make up all sorts of shit.
Of course the problem with that WBA check was they "forgot" to check for offside
... Bunch of moronsIn both today's and yesterday's big incidents the VAR did their job exactly right, it was the onfield ref who botched the decision. In yesterday's case in particular the Brighton goal would have been wrongly allowed without VAR, so it's a prime example of it doing its job.
The problem of course is that on another day the likes of Lee Mason (who was so inept he needed VAR to tell him when he had blown his own whistle) will be the VAR, at which point you would hardly back his interventions to be positive. So for that reason it is still a VAR problem.
You can have whatever VAR system you like, it won't work if the referees don't have a base level of competence. In theory it should be lowering the standard required from them from the very high "able to make consistently good decisions in the moment on the pitch" to the much lower "able to make consistently good decisions with the benefit of video footage, multiple angles and slow-motion". If they're incapable of operating to that lower standard though then they're not fit for purpose.
The problem of course is that on another day the likes of Lee Mason (who was so inept he needed VAR to tell him when he had blown his own whistle) will be the VAR, at which point you would hardly back his interventions to be positive. So for that reason it is still a VAR problem.
You can have whatever VAR system you like, it won't work if the referees don't have a base level of competence. In theory it should be lowering the standard required from them from the very high "able to make consistently good decisions in the moment on the pitch" to the much lower "able to make consistently good decisions with the benefit of video footage, multiple angles and slow-motion". If they're incapable of operating to that lower standard though then they're not fit for purpose.
You can’t separate referees from general VAR failures. Any system is only as good as its weakest link and it’s the system that’s letting us down here. If the onfield ref is about to make an obviously terrible decision than the guy who’s been reviewing all the multiple replays should let him know, in no uncertain terms. If that isn’t happening then the whole system isn’t fit for purpose.
What was his understandably fuming view on the previous Rashford toe nail clipping dive-penalty? Was it more along the lines of "well sometimes they're given sometimes they're not"?