Refs & VAR 2021/22

Orange Tree

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That's why it's important to have a strong leader in the team, otherwise it's only downhill when decisions didn't go our way.

The officiating was embarrassing. The Arsenal's second goal was a blatant offside and the referees somehow missed it and needed a huge protest from the players to check the VAR.

On the other end, instant whistle on Ronaldo.

Telles stumbled into Saka was a penalty. Arsenal's player stumbled into Elanga, nothing.

Feck off.
 

sullydnl

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I have absolutely no idea how this can be said with any certainty. What even is the Margin of Error? Is it different this season to last? How different? Visually that looks no different to the “armpit hair offsides” we say last season that we weren’t supposed to see any more.
Basically before they used to use 1mm thick lines to actually calculate the offside. Then once it was calculated they thickened the lines out to the red and blue ones we see on screen just for the sake of clarity. The change was that if the two lines overlapped once they thickened them out, benefit of the doubt would then go to the attacker.

I'm not sure they've officially said what MOE that constitutes in real terms but I think I saw 5cm reported somewhere.

So in this case the gap between Ronaldo being deemed onside/offside is as small as the gap between the red and blue lines. If they overlapped, he'd have got the benefit of the doubt (and a single green line would have been shown on-screen instead). The issue is however big the MOE, there will always be calls that fall millimetres outside it.
 

DavidDeSchmikes

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I have absolutely no idea how this can be said with any certainty. What even is the Margin of Error? Is it different this season to last? How different? Visually that looks no different to the “armpit hair offsides” we saw last season that we weren’t supposed to see any more.
Jota's goal against Forest in the FA Cup was more offside, and that was given
 

Becks00

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This idiots made the defeat so hard to take. The stupid team they are helping in to the champions league would most likely end up embarrassing themselves on that stage too.
 

GaryLifo

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A foul that starts outside and continues into the box is a penalty. They used a feeble outside the box excuse for not checking it.
 

Mick1991

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If you think those 2 incidents are the same, i'd like to officially welcome you to the VAR team for the 22/23 PL season.
Both end up clamping down on their opponents foot - Zero difference in the outcome of those challenges.
 

Becks00

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The fecked up part is there is a set narrative that United are bad, so this incompetence that would cost the club millions would not get the attention it should.
 

allen7

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Arsenal didn’t deserved the win today.

I hope spurs qualify for top 4 .
 

maniak

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No. Elanga rides that contact ok. He even manages to play the ball. It’s when Tavares collapses on his leg that he can’t stay on his feet any longer. Inside the box.
Sorry, but check again, he starts falling immediately after the contact, outside the box. You have some complains, but this is not one. Look at the pic, Elanga is falling here, outside the box. I know it's a still, but recheck the video.

 

awop

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Both end up clamping down on their opponents foot - Zero difference in the outcome of those challenges.
Good thing intent is also part of any sensible reflection.
 

Fitchett

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Correct decisions as follows

1.Either Arsenal’s penalty not given or we get one for first half challenge on Elanga.
2. Xhaka’s goal disallowed
3. Penalty for Cedric handball
4. Penalty for Elanga being fecking rugby tackled in the second half.

The Ronaldo offside was dodgy as feck an’ all. They’re not supposed to do that any more but whatever. Those four are the obvious ones. Not often VAR incompetence can turn a 3-1 defeat into a 3-1 win but that’s what happened today. Absolute madness.
This summing up is spot on. But we will always get shafted like this for as long as the great British media ignores or glosses over such blatant injustices against United, but blab incessantly about any decisions which go our way.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Correct decisions as follows

1.Either Arsenal’s penalty not given or we get one for first half challenge on Elanga.
2. Xhaka’s goal disallowed
3. Penalty for Cedric handball
4. Penalty for Elanga being fecking rugby tackled in the second half.

The Ronaldo offside was dodgy as feck an’ all. They’re not supposed to do that any more but whatever. Those four are the obvious ones. Not often VAR incompetence can turn a 3-1 defeat into a 3-1 win but that’s what happened today. Absolute madness.
Just to add to this.

5. Ramsdale had both feet off the goal line when Bruno struck his penalty.
 

arnie_ni

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Correct decisions as follows

1.Either Arsenal’s penalty not given or we get one for first half challenge on Elanga.
2. Xhaka’s goal disallowed
3. Penalty for Cedric handball
4. Penalty for Elanga being fecking rugby tackled in the second half.

The Ronaldo offside was dodgy as feck an’ all. They’re not supposed to do that any more but whatever. Those four are the obvious ones. Not often VAR incompetence can turn a 3-1 defeat into a 3-1 win but that’s what happened today. Absolute madness.
I think the elanga one started outside the box in fairness. Agree with the others.

The Ronaldo offside was odd as feck. To me, the line closest to the goal was the one they set to the defenders foot, ie he was closest to goal so Ronaldo was onside. They looked like they messed up and I'd love to see the pic again.
 

Anustart89

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I have absolutely no idea how this can be said with any certainty. What even is the Margin of Error? Is it different this season to last? How different? Visually that looks no different to the “armpit hair offsides” we saw last season that we weren’t supposed to see any more.
Margin of error should be "if lines are overlapping". To me, the blue Arsenal line looks a few pixels thinner than the red United line, which (assuming they don't use different thickness) should mean that Ronaldo was within the margin of error.
It was outside the box, don't know why you're asking for a penalty.
Tavares is making contact with Elanga all the way down to the ground and is pretty much sitting on him as the contact concludes, which means that the foul continues inside the box which means it should've been a penalty.
 

arnie_ni

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A foul that starts outside and continues into the box is a penalty. They used a feeble outside the box excuse for not checking it.
Thought it was the other way around? If that's the case then it's a stonewall pen
 

Anustart89

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Thought it was the other way around? If that's the case then it's a stonewall pen
Of course it is. Otherwise you could just pull someone's shirt as they're about to enter the box and just not let go of it if the punishment was a free kick.
 

arnie_ni

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Of course it is. Otherwise you could just pull someone's shirt as they're about to enter the box and just not let go of it if the punishment was a free kick.
I'm sure I've seen them pull fouls back to outside the box after it carries on inside.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I'm sure I've seen them pull fouls back to outside the box after it carries on inside.
There were two separate infringements anyway. First Tavares crashes into his back. Elanga stays on his feet, get a touch on the ball and advances to the edge of the box. That’s when Tavares falls on him, catching one of his legs beneath his fall and taking Elanga down. The second contact was the foul that should have conceded a penalty.
 

maniak

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Tavares is making contact with Elanga all the way down to the ground and is pretty much sitting on him as the contact concludes, which means that the foul continues inside the box which means it should've been a penalty.
That's not what I see. The contact that makes him fall is outside the box. He's already falling outside the box.
 

maniak

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Elanga stays on his feet
He doesn't though, he starts falling immediately. Just because he fell forward and only hit the ground inside the box, you can't say he was on his feet. He wasn't, he was falling, therefore the whistle should've been blown in the first contact, outside the box.
 

Powderfinger

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That's not what I see. The contact that makes him fall is outside the box. He's already falling outside the box.
Yeah, it’s obvious the contact begins outside the box and Elanga is going down with his feet outside the box.

Thats never a penalty. I’ve seen this situation tons of times in recent years and it’s always a free kick at the edge of the box.
 

Jeppers7

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MOTD :lol:

Cedric - not a pen
Elanga - if it’s outside box it’s a foul, but it’s not a pen :houllier:
Xhaka goal - correct decision
Bruno - should’ve been sent off

Shearer is a grade A Bellend
 

Anustart89

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That's not what I see. The contact that makes him fall is outside the box. He's already falling outside the box.
But there is contact that would reasonably impede a player that continues into the box (Tavares pretty much sitting on Elanga at the end of it). If you want to call it two separate infringements or one continuous is up to you, but the outcome is a penalty irrespective of which one you choose. If he had pushed Elanga outside the box so that he lost his balance and the kicked him inside the box then surely the kick would have been punishable too? Otherwise you could just foul someone outside the box and then when they fall you can do whatever you want with them even if it constitutes a foul, yeah?

Regardless of whether you think that particular incident is a foul or not, it’s pretty obvious and suspect that that foul, the handball penalty on Cedric where he is crawling and scooping the ball out of the box, the first potential foul on Elanga and Xhaka’s goal were given much less attention than when Arsenal had a VAR incident that could possibly go for them which resulted in a three minute review. It’s almost as if the clear and obvious bar became lower because the goal that resulted was offside, as if the offside is something that the referee should compensate for. That should be the story here, not whether one specific foul was inside or outside the box. It seemed like they were using every little opportunity to call clear and obvious in arsenals favour, and the arbitrarity (is that a word?) with which the guys sitting hidden away in the VAR room enforce that threshold is bordering on corruption.

Edit: I forgot the two-minute VAR review on the penalty we actually got. I mean, why the hell would you spend so long on the most obvious penalty ever if not to try to find something to overturn it? I mean, as soon as you saw that the ball hit his hand in that position above the head it should’ve been obvious that the clear and obvious threshold would never be met, yet we got, what, 10-15 replays of it?
 
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Josep Dowling

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I think the Cedric handball is definitely a pen. No way is that accidental.

Elanga one is also a penalty.

Bruno should have been sent off.

Xhaka’s goal should stand.

Ronaldo isn’t offside.
 

68cob

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The Ronaldo offside was odd as feck. To me, the line closest to the goal was the one they set to the defenders foot, ie he was closest to goal so Ronaldo was onside. They looked like they messed up and I'd love to see the pic again.
The picture is in THIS POST
That decision has done my head in. The blue line is United, right? The blue line is further from the goal ..... so am I just losing touch with rule changes or is that onside? I don't like dwelling on one ref/VAR decision deciding the outcome of a game, but this match was ruined by several but I'm sure there are plenty lower profile games have been too.
 

90 + 5min

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I’ve said it trillion times. Mic on referees. Mic in VAR room. Post game interviews like managers. It is not hard and something that could be done tomorrow if they want.
There is no transparency in football and referees can do what they feel for. They will still get new game next week. And so it goes. Round and around.
Yesterday was one of the worst VAR / ref combinations in a game for a long, long time. Shockingly bad and you do wonder how so many decisions can go against one team. I wonder what would be said if we got those decision?
 

diarm

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MOTD :lol:

Cedric - not a pen
Elanga - if it’s outside box it’s a foul, but it’s not a pen :houllier:
Xhaka goal - correct decision
Bruno - should’ve been sent off

Shearer is a grade A Bellend
They were an actual disgrace. If this was a bottom half of the table side that had those decisions go against them at Old Trafford, we would've had zero analysis and 25 minutes of complaining about how disgraceful it was.
 

Pogue Mahone

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The picture is in THIS POST
That decision has done my head in. The blue line is United, right? The blue line is further from the goal ..... so am I just losing touch with rule changes or is that onside? I don't like dwelling on one ref/VAR decision deciding the outcome of a game, but this match was ruined by several but I'm sure there are plenty lower profile games have been too.
The red line is United. Makes no sense but that’s what they went with. @sullydnl was saying they made the lines thicker this season and there needs to be clear daylight between them for a player to be offside. Which… isn’t the case here?