Refs & VAR 2021/22

Bubz27

No I won’t change your tag line
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
19,677
No I agree. I wasn't sure if you were arguing it's irrelevant, because I know people that say you need more to give a penalty than a fk, which is nonsense.
Oh, yeah I get you. It's so stupid.
 

Red00012

Full Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
8,024
Starting to believe VAR is corrupt

they pick and choose what they want to see
 

njred

HALA MADRID!
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Messages
6,157
Supports
Liverpool
When you look at the state of the decision making it’s even more unbelievable that they haven’t been on the wrong end of any pen decision
I understand the love the media has with us and to maybe some extent the league but it’s probably just a little incompetence, a little luck, and always being camped out in the opponent’s box that has us avoiding penalties.
 

Anustart89

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
12,425
Starting to believe VAR is corrupt

they pick and choose what they want to see
That was very obvious yesterday.

- No serious VAR check for Elanga
- No serious VAR check for Cedric handball
- Serious VAR check for penalty once offside was given
- Lengthy VAR check for super obvious penalty given to us
- No serious VAR check for Elanga again
- No serious VAR check for offside with de Gea obviously having to look around Nketiah which delayed his reaction to the shot

That's six incidents in one game where the VAR has chosen the "pro-Arsenal" option whenever possible. I'm just surprised Bruno didn't get sent off as well to make it a smashing eight from the VAR.

That's why I want a challenge system so that teams can actually force the main ref to the monitor rather than having the guy in the bus act as a potentially biased filter before an incident gets sent to the ref.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
6,568
Location
Manchester
I’ve been going on about a challenge system since they introduced VAR and I really think it’s time to seriously consider it.

The fact that officials can pick and choose which decisions to look at and which not to look at has given us some really dodgy and biased refereeing this season. Remove the VAR official and replace him with a technician who just rolls the replays for the referee. A team can challenge any major decision (goal, penalty, red card offence) and keeps their challenge if the call is overturned in their favour, even if it’s not fully in their favour (player tackled, ref doesn’t give foul, team challenges for denying goalscoring opportunity and the ref changes the decision to foul and yellow, for example). A challenge would force the referee to the monitor and then he wouldn’t need the clear and obvious threshold to overturn himself, just basically balance of probabilities.
Exactly this. If anything the introduction of VAR has made decisions less consistent and more open to influencing the outcome of a game.
 

Anustart89

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
12,425
Exactly this. If anything the introduction of VAR has made decisions less consistent and more open to influencing the outcome of a game.
Not to mention even more frustrating, because now we have clear evidence of players poking each others in the eyes, studding each other in the thighs, blocking the goalkeeper's sight from an offside position, pushing each others in the back, yet we still don't get the right decisions made on the pitch due to technicalities with regards to the burden of proof and degree of wrongness on the original call. I was very much pro-VAR before it was introduced, but at this point it's just another tool with which games can be influenced beyond the control of the managers and players on the pitch.

In the first two seasons of VAR, there were multiple instances of the VAR looking at replays for two-three minutes in order to decide whether it's clear and obvious, but once the referee ended up being sent to the monitor, he made his mind up within ten seconds. I genuinely think that if the refs were shown all contentious decisions (ie someone says to the ref "there's a penalty shout, as soon as the ball goes out of play you go to the monitor", which means that the referee could position himself close to the monitor as play went on and only have 20-30 yards to sprint as soon as play is stopped), we'd get more correct decisions made and in a shorter time than the VAR having to watch, rewatch, re-rewatch footage in order to ascertain the difference between wrong, clearly wrong, obviously wrong or clearly and obviously wrong.
 

Klopper76

"Did you see Fabinho against Red Star & Cardiff?"
Joined
Dec 15, 2015
Messages
17,655
Location
Victoria, BC
Supports
Liverpool
I understand the love the media has with us and to maybe some extent the league but it’s probably just a little incompetence, a little luck, and always being camped out in the opponent’s box that has us avoiding penalties.
It’s definitely incompetence. You have to remember that the technology doesn’t change but the person operating it does. That’s a different referee every time with their own opinions, interpretation and feelings towards what is and isn’t a foul, handball, red card etc.

Do away with the separate VAR officials and have it all done at the side of the pitch. For anything the referee doesn’t see or isn’t sure about he can do check a monitor by the dugout with the fourth official as well to consult.
 

Red-17

Full Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
152
Location
Chicago
The selectivity of when a ref does and doesn’t get asked to look at footage is maddening. Every time they look at the footage they always upgrade the punishment. Never the opposite. And the decision about what does/doesn’t get reviewed is entirely arbitrary. It’s a completely broken system.
Yeah this is the biggest issue IMO in addition to the complete lack of transparency. I genuinely don't remember a single example of the ref not overturning it when going to the monitor. There should be many examples of the ref going to the monitor, seeing it again, and sticking with what he originally saw.
 

Bobade

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2019
Messages
502
Does anyone have footage of the Mane incident? Didnt watch the match.
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008 & 2020
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
116,939
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Yeah this is the biggest issue IMO in addition to the complete lack of transparency. I genuinely don't remember a single example of the ref not overturning it when going to the monitor. There should be many examples of the ref going to the monitor, seeing it again, and sticking with what he originally saw.
Yeah, 100%. So these marginal calls are utterly dependent on the decision of whoever the feck in the truck. It’s not a tool that makes the on-field referee’s job any easier (which was how it was sold to us) It basically just takes decisions away from him and gives them to someone else.
 

Anustart89

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
12,425
Yeah, 100%. So these marginal calls are utterly dependent on the decision of whoever the feck in the truck. It’s not a tool that makes the on-field referee’s job any easier (which was how it was sold to us) It basically just takes decisions away from him and gives them to someone else.
Plus another thing. If I'd been a referee with a standard sense of integrity and willingness to do a good job, I'd be pretty pissed off at my "buddy" in the VAR room denying me the chance to correct my mistakes. For example, if I thought I'd seen Cedric falling and catching the ball in the falling motion, I'd want my colleague in the bus to alert me to the fact that he was crawling for five or six yards before the actual handball occurred, because there's no way that any normal referee would say to his VAR colleague "I saw him crawling and then scooping the ball out of the penalty box so it's not a deliberate handball for me, but correct me if I saw it wrong" when discussing the incident in the next break of play.
 

Red-17

Full Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
152
Location
Chicago
Plus another thing. If I'd been a referee with a standard sense of integrity and willingness to do a good job, I'd be pretty pissed off at my "buddy" in the VAR room denying me the chance to correct my mistakes. For example, if I thought I'd seen Cedric falling and catching the ball in the falling motion, I'd want my colleague in the bus to alert me to the fact that he was crawling for five or six yards before the actual handball occurred, because there's no way that any normal referee would say to his VAR colleague "I saw him crawling and then scooping the ball out of the penalty box so it's not a deliberate handball for me, but correct me if I saw it wrong" when discussing the incident in the next break of play.
Yeah there was the idea put out that they aren't supposed to re-referee the game, but that is in effect exactly what they are doing by essentially letting the VAR decide one way or another and the center ref never differing from it.
 

Bubz27

No I won’t change your tag line
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
19,677
I didn’t see the Liverpool game what was the controversy with that?
Mane put his hand in 2 guys faces and got away with one booking. Matip bundled over Gordon in the box, no penalty. The referee literally started moving his whistle to his mouth and proper hesitated before thinking better of it at Anfield. We need a title race afterall.
 

MikeKing

Full Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2017
Messages
4,760
Supports
Bournemouth
Mane put his hand in 2 guys faces and got away with one booking. Matip bundled over Gordon in the box, no penalty. The referee literally started moving his whistle to his mouth and proper hesitated before thinking better of it at Anfield. We need a title race afterall.
Oh wow. It's really that obvious now? :lol:
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
19,038
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Baffling decisions at the weekend. Some level of shirt tugging can be allowed, but the arm over and round the shoulder pulling Elanga back looked like a classic example of an over-the-threshold shirt pull. Standard shite where the attacker is punished for not collapsing to the floor. Similar for the Cedric handball, it looked like a very clear example of a 'direct action' towards the ball - i.e. where the defender makes a deliberate move towards the ball and their arms are in a blocking position. Once Cedric takes that extra crawl step, it again crosses the threshold from accidental to deliberate. And that's certainly the distinction referees are now supposed to be using.
 

MayosNoun

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2020
Messages
2,038
Supports
Chelsea
That VAR decisions in favour of Liverpool yesterday are amongst the worst I’ve seen yet. Prior to this is always seems to have been in favour of Liverpool.

Actually, the referee clearly knew Gordon was fouled by Matip and even hesitated wondering what he does next when the obvious decision was to give a penalty. He had already booked Gordon for diving so he couldn’t do that as it would likely have required VAR review and he would have had to give the penalty and remove the red card.

So he took the easy way out, no pen, no booking and no VAR.

VAR was supposed to support referees but now it gives them an excuse. Mane, Trent and Jota should all have been sent off. Again, off with it.
 

charlenefan

Far less insightful than the other Charley
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
30,798
Regarding the Mane possible red card

DERMOT SAYS: "When you see the whole package, he is very lucky to still be on the pitch. Stuart and VAR are very unlucky because of the protocol. There's so much going on and Stuart sees the first one [on Allan] and he [Mane] is yellow carded, he may even have been alerted by his assistant.

So they have the first incident. The second incident you see later on with Holgate doesn't get witnessed. VAR can only look at it if it's a red card. VAR feels it's a yellow card offence and he can't recommend a yellow card offence to the referee.

"So even though he would have got a second yellow card, he can't do that. Therefore, Mane escapes."
The rules a joke, needs to be changed
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
10,409
Seeing a replay of that Bruno tackle again, it's actually a shocking challenge. As easy a red card as youll see. Can't believe they missed it
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008 & 2020
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
116,939
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Baffling decisions at the weekend. Some level of shirt tugging can be allowed, but the arm over and round the shoulder pulling Elanga back looked like a classic example of an over-the-threshold shirt pull. Standard shite where the attacker is punished for not collapsing to the floor. Similar for the Cedric handball, it looked like a very clear example of a 'direct action' towards the ball - i.e. where the defender makes a deliberate move towards the ball and their arms are in a blocking position. Once Cedric takes that extra crawl step, it again crosses the threshold from accidental to deliberate. And that's certainly the distinction referees are now supposed to be using.
Spot on. As always.

What did you make of the other two controversial incidents?

Nketiah obstructing DDG’s view from offside position

Tavares wrestling Elanga to the ground (again!) in the second half.
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008 & 2020
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
116,939
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Seeing a replay of that Bruno tackle again, it's actually a shocking challenge. As easy a red card as youll see. Can't believe they missed it
It would have 110% been a red card if the ref had been asked to look at the screen beside the pitch. But that’s the way VAR works now. It’s completely arbitrary as to whether incidents get an on pitch review. And when they do, the referee will always upgrade their initial punishment.
 

padr81

Full Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
10,082
Supports
Man City
It would have 110% been a red card if the ref had been asked to look at the screen beside the pitch. But that’s the way VAR works now. It’s completely arbitrary as to whether incidents get an on pitch review. And when they do, the referee will always upgrade their initial punishment.
The issue is a Klopper said its still subjective. The ref wasn't asked to look at it same as the Mane one because the VAR deemed it a yellow card offence and they can't get involved in yellow card offences. The whole thing is a mess, the technology is there but the common sense in the rules of football is not.
 

UncleBob

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
6,224
Reading Dermot's take on things, i can only come to the conclusion that referees are thick as feck.
 

Anustart89

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
12,425
Regarding the Mane possible red card



The rules a joke, needs to be changed
Especially since it's not necessarily true.

Thing is, the VAR could easily have said that it's an eye poke and as such it's a red card incident. Even if the referee feels that it isn't a red card while watching the monitor, at that point all outcomes are available to him (ie nothing, yellow and red). So the VAR could've said that "hey he poked him in the eye that's a possible red" (poking someone in the eye intentionally usually would be in football, one would think) and instigated a review from which the ref could give either a straight red or a second yellow. The only difference would be that the former would carry a three game ban and the latter a one game ban.

VAR "feels that it's a yellow card offence" because he fancies to escape sending Mané off. Any reasonable referee would look at him deliberately putting his hand in an opponent's face and poking his eye and say "that's a clear red card!", but somehow the rules, according to Dermot Gallagher, are supposedly very clear on poking someone in the eye being a stonewall yellow card and could under no circumstances be a red which is something that he, and the VAR, have just made up since it isn't.
 

Hughie77

Full Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2017
Messages
2,512
I understand the love the media has with us and to maybe some extent the league but it’s probably just a little incompetence, a little luck, and always being camped out in the opponent’s box that has us avoiding penalties.
That was said about UTD as well, under SAF, and roundly sounded out as bollocks mainly by the dippers , its just favourable to the sides going for the title . And it's happened way to often for it to become coincidence. VAR has ruined the game .
 

Hughie77

Full Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2017
Messages
2,512
Starting to believe VAR is corrupt

they pick and choose what they want to see
I'm tending to agree, we will look at the descions over weekend, UTD had 4 VAR incidents and 1 was looked at close Ronnys offside Goal, the others were just batted away, player offside in Keeper Eye line , not looked at, Hand ball in1st half not or either did but not long enough to see movement of hand to ball, Elenga brought down twice only 1 looked at??

Then you got the ref laughing at the players when there telling him. Then you got the non pen at Anfield another blatant VAR cock up.
Another apology coming for Everton, what about our apology for blatant missuse of a tool everyone can use that's got 2 fecking eyes to see with . VAR ruined the game.
 

Hughie77

Full Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2017
Messages
2,512
That was very obvious yesterday.

- No serious VAR check for Elanga
- No serious VAR check for Cedric handball
- Serious VAR check for penalty once offside was given
- Lengthy VAR check for super obvious penalty given to us
- No serious VAR check for Elanga again
- No serious VAR check for offside with de Gea obviously having to look around Nketiah which delayed his reaction to the shot

That's six incidents in one game where the VAR has chosen the "pro-Arsenal" option whenever possible. I'm just surprised Bruno didn't get sent off as well to make it a smashing eight from the VAR.

That's why I want a challenge system so that teams can actually force the main ref to the monitor rather than having the guy in the bus act as a potentially biased filter before an incident gets sent to the ref.
Agree with it all