Refs & VAR 2021/22

[nemanja15]

The body silhouette wording thing has been removed and isn't part of consideration any more. The handball tweaks for this season mean that Shaw's was always going to be given - his arm is extended away from his body and it blocks a cross. Like it or not, his body is being made unnaturally bigger.

The issues from yesterday for me are the Wan-Bissaka on Soucek non-pen (still scratching my head on that, to be honest) and probably just the Coufal on Ronaldo one. Sticks his leg out, there's contact and clear impeding. For the second big shout, he's on his way down before Zouma's tackle, so I can perhaps understand why that one wasn't deemed a clear and obvious error.

 

[Offside]

Just when you think they’ve got a grip on the ridiculous handball rule they go and give that penalty on Shaw. Player booting the ball at him from a yard away. There’s nothing “unnatural” about a handball unless it’s deliberate. The fact they use slow motion to check it defies common sense more than anything else I’ve seen in football.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

The natural silhouette wording has been removed and isn't a thing any more. The handball tweaks for this season mean that Shaw's was always going to be given - his arm is extended away from his body and it blocks a cross. Like it or not, his body is being made unnaturally bigger.

I wasn't aware that part of the wording had changed, but it is implied by the use of 'Unnaturally bigger', which is very subjective. When you're making that lateral movement to block a cross, your arms are out, it's a natural movement. It's not an unnatural position or body shape given the motion he is making. It's more unnatural to put your arms behind your back, as you just wouldn't instinctively do that when stretching laterally.

The amendment to rule is worded as "A player’s hand/arm position should be judged in relation to their body movement in that particular situation" which in my view certainly covers what Shaw was doing.


The Premier League website does also say the proximity of where the ball was struck from is also taken into consideration, but yesterday it certainly wasn't, since it was from a yard away, tops.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

It's concerning. The goal conceded to Southampton was ignored by VAR, which I wasn't overly annoyed with as I understand they want to let the game flow better. Yesterday was ridiculous, I cannot understand what the referee and VAR were thinking. There will be more incorrect decisions this season and it will effect every team but surely VAR has been introduced to eradicate incorrect decisions and referee incompetence.

 

[Crimson King]

It's concerning. The goal conceded to Southampton was ignored by VAR, which I wasn't overly annoyed with as I understand they want to let the game flow better. Yesterday was ridiculous, I cannot understand what the referee and VAR were thinking. There will be more incorrect decisions this season and it will effect every team but surely VAR has been introduced to eradicate incorrect decisions and referee incompetence.

The referees in this country don't know how to use it properly so they've basically minimised it completely. Apart from marginal offside calls it might as well not be there anymore.

 

[jymufc20]

I don't know. Just explaining how Var should work on paper. Why Moss and his Var pals did that is a mystery to me

I knew that's what you meant, it's just a joke of a system that they are seemingly just making up as they go along on a game to game basis.

 

[tyunited]

What's the point of screen when the ref is always going to agree with the VAR decision?

 

[CassiusClaymore]

What's the point of screen when the ref is always going to agree with the VAR decision?

To make it look like it's the ref who's in charge and made the call. Well that and a bit of theatre.

 

[Doracle]

I wasn't aware that part of the wording had changed, but it is implied by the use of 'Unnaturally bigger', which is very subjective. When you're making that lateral movement to block a cross, your arms are out, it's a natural movement. It's not an unnatural position or body shape given the motion he is making. It's more unnatural to put your arms behind your back, as you just wouldn't instinctively do that when stretching laterally.

The amendment to rule is worded as "A player’s hand/arm position should be judged in relation to their body movement in that particular situation" which in my view certainly covers what Shaw was doing.


The Premier League website does also say the proximity of where the ball was struck from is also taken into consideration, but yesterday it certainly wasn't, since it was from a yard away, tops.

Agree with this. His arm is exactly where you would expect it to be for a player making the movement which he was making. We all knew it was going to be given, as the referees are definitely interpreting it as “if the arm is away from the body, give a penalty” but it’s an extremely poor interpretation which leads to game changing decisions.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Keith Hackett, the ex ref was on Talksport early this morning. He thought it was a pen for United, he thought it wasn't a pen for Brighton. He also was unhappy with the Southampton penalty and City red card being overturned. He felt Martin Atkinson (VAR man) made the wrong decision and then Moss just went along with his mate by overturning his own decision.

 

[keener]

The problem isn't VAR as I'll always I've always contended. I like it to some large degree. The problem in this case is that no 2 people seem to define a handball the same. And that fact is evident by how the rule is interpreted by refs, by how you hear commentators discuss the rule. It's random and fluid and seemingly too easy to bend to one's will.

What is a handball?

Commentators will say: "his hand was in a natural position" so No. "His hand was out from his body unnatural" so yes, "was it an intentional act" , "it was too close to react so obviously not intentional".

These are commentators and often times ex-players that all have definitions.

I have no problem with VAR, why? because it does allow the ref the ability to see the play in slowmo and thus call the play as per how he understands the rule. THE problem with handball is that nobody seems to interpret the rule the same. The league, or FIFA, or some governing body should provide guidance and ultimately oversight to maintain the enforcement of this, a most important rule (often determining games) in a consistent manner.

The commentators made mention that the rule was redifined this offseason to state if the player was in a normal posture for the current situation.... and Luke was stretching his leg out to block as he moved to the side.... now, who keeps their hands behind them in that motion? Who doesn't have their arms often out from their body for balance? EVERYONE does.

 

[arnie_ni]

Has to be up there with the worst decisions ever seen. They've got video replays of the whole thing.

@GifLord

 

[Foxbatt]

Yeah the calls in the Leicester game were terrible. Managers must be pulling their hair out, the consistency of refereeing has been poor so far this season.

How was the Walker foul overturned?

One disallowed goal in the Leicester game was correct. The other two were goals I feel. The penalty was not a penalty because the Leicester player was already being fouled before it hits his hand.

 

[nemanja15]

The City one is really interesting actually, and not as cut and dried as you might think.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[cyberman]

Walker didn’t try for the ball though. He went to block Armstrong from getting there?

 

[nemanja15]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Walker clearly tries to hook the ball away here with his right foot, and just misses it. Second angle shows that best (I still think it's a penalty, and probably a yellow, by the way).

 

[Viral United]

I was in favor of VAR but after seeing it how they implementing VAR, I have to say we are better of without VAR.
Last season Ref gave Penalty to any contact in box thinking VAR will correct them,
This season it is opposite, they don't give Penalty and thinking VAR will correct it.
Issue is VAR don't correct either of them, So what is the point?
Its more and more look like VAR is face saving tool for Ref.

 

[ti vu]

I was in favor of VAR but after seeing it how they implementing VAR, I have to say we are better of without VAR.
Last season Ref gave Penalty to any contact in box thinking VAR will correct them,
This season it is opposite, they don't give Penalty and thinking VAR will correct it.
Issue is VAR don't correct either of them, So what is the point?
Its more and more look like VAR is face saving tool for Ref.

Predictable before VAR rolled out. They have and had been politically implementing different ways to cover the refs asses for years. Mistake is part of human, and the game. However, for a long time, new generations of refs are just outright terrible at game management so that the refs themselves became the main players deciding the game. All these methods, and now VAR is just a deflection for the refs lack of quality. Now people have something else, just as bad and controversial to aim at, refs are getting away with being terrible at their jobs

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

For some reason I thought the hand ball rule had been modified not to be as hard on defenders such as the Shaw one when he’s miles from goal. I’m thinking if the defenders arms are out from his body it must be an automatic penalty if it hits the arm whatever your position in the box. It does still create the possibility that a clever player could aim for the players arm and win a penalty even in a hopeless position. Basically defenders must defend with their arms by their body in the box these days.

 

[Bubz27]

Dermot Gallagher is chatting absolute shite in that Saints video. If anyone can pause and tell me where Armstrong had overrun the ball, I'll hold my hands up and say I'm wrong.

And then he says it's okay because Walker got in front of him and then Armstrong hit Walker in the calf. That gives me a headache to think he actually believes that. Are you just allowed to get in front of a player by throwing yourself into them now? Impede a player to get in front of them, as long as you're in front of them? Nevermind the fact he wasn't actually in front of him.

 

[sullydnl]

The City one is really interesting actually, and not as cut and dried as you might think.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

So if the ref saw what actually happened and decided to give a penalty, or misinterpreted what happened and decided to give a penalty, then the penalty would have stood. But because he misinterpreted it and decided to give a penalty and a red card, it all got overturned? Very messy.

This is the problem with placing so much weight on what the referee initially thought happened rather than what VAR can see actually happened.

 

[Strats]

Apparently Australian Jarred Gillett will the first overseas referee this weekend when Watford play Newcastle.

At least he doesn’t seem to mind having a microphone on

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Apparently Australian Jarred Gillett will the first overseas referee this weekend when Watford play Newcastle.

At least he doesn’t seem to mind having a microphone on

Annoying stat of the week. Can’t believe it’s getting repeated so much. Dermot Gallagher was born and reared in Ringsend.

 

[Amarsdd]

only just saw the Brighton vs Leicester highlights and oh wow were Leicester not completely fecked over by VAR. All three VAR decision surely are feckin stupid and wrong.

 

[Dorris]

Watkins clearly offside on the goal, not even checked. They’re as hapless as we are.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Back to being terrible after being decent for the first two weeks of the season.

They are literally making it up by week. How do you disallow Leicester’s goal last week and then today somehow magically miss Watkins in front of de Gea?

Not even sure we should have had a pen.

 

[El Zoido]

Watkins clearly offside on the goal, not even checked. They’re as hapless as we are.

A bit annoying how a lot of these poor decisions come in games where we’ve played badly so nobody cares. Same against Sheffield Utd last season.

 

[kiristao]

Antonio hit the keeper in the face with his arm when he jumped for the ball, which made his drop the ball and West Ham scored. The ref was asked to check the screen by VAR and he correctly ruled the goal out for a foul. He then went on to show Antonio a yellow for that foul. My question is, can a ref show a yellow based on a VAR check? I thought he can only use VAR to show or rescind a red card.

 

[Flying_Heckfish]

The penalty Everton got today. What the actual? Compare that with Ronnie's.

 

[duffer]

Watkins clearly offside on the goal, not even checked. They’re as hapless as we are.

All goals are checked.

 

[arnie_ni]

All goals are checked.

De gea had to push him out of his way. Not sure how it wasn't given

 

[ooeat0meoo]

With Ole's statement about hoping the ref's stop making bad calls against United just about sums it all up. The refs have chosen to hurt Manchester United's chances of winning matches. Thus, the Premier League as a whole has lost all credibility

 

[Dorris]

All goals are checked.

It obviously hasn’t been checked properly if they haven’t even bothered to tell Mike Dean to go and review it. If De Gea kicks off that’s disallowed, that’s how much of a farce it is.

 

[stevoc]

All goals are checked.

If they checked that and didn't disallow it then VAR is pointless, same with the Ronaldo penalties last week.

 

[arnie_ni]

I actually can't understand how kdb wasn't sent off tonight.

It's a shocking challenge the more I watch it.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

KDB really should've seen red. I'm also interested to know why Lingard wasn't considered offside for Ronnie's winner tonight.

 

[Northstand]

KDB really should've seen red. I'm also interested to know why Lingard wasn't considered offside for Ronnie's winner tonight.

Just watched Ronaldo’s goal again…I don’t think Lingard was offside at any point.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Just watched Ronaldo’s goal again…I don’t think Lingard was offside at any point.

At the moment Ronaldo shoots Lingard is clearly beyond the last defender and lying on the floor in front of the goalkeeper. Maybe it's because he was knocked over, or the rules are different in UEFA competition but I have a memory of a West Brom goal being chalked off last season for a bloke vaguely interfering with play, as well as an Everton goal being ruled out for a guy sitting on his ass in front of Man Utd's keeper.

 

[Suedesi]

KDB should have seen red
Kessie should have never received a yellow card, let alone two by cnut CAKIR
Atletico were gifted a PK in the 90th minute by cnut CAKIR
Sevilla's penalty against Wolfsburg and the ensuing red card was ridiculous

 

[11101]

At the moment Ronaldo shoots Lingard is clearly beyond the last defender and lying on the floor in front of the goalkeeper. Maybe it's because he was knocked over, or the rules are different in UEFA competition but I have a memory of a West Brom goal being chalked off last season for a bloke vaguely interfering with play, as well as an Everton goal being ruled out for a guy sitting on his ass in front of Man Utd's keeper.

Lingard was there are a result of being fouled. The rules apply in order, so the foul overrules the offside as it happened first. I am guessing the referee has then given advantage for the foul as we scored anyway.

KDB should have seen red
Kessie should have never received a yellow card, let alone two by cnut CAKIR
Atletico were gifted a PK in the 90th minute by cnut CAKIR
Sevilla's penalty against Wolfsburg and the ensuing red card was ridiculous

It's to be expected from Cakir. I don't understand how UEFA keep appointing him to big games, he's made so many big mistakes in his career.