Religion Discussion | Read the OP before posting

Raoul

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As the thread title clearly states - this thread is strictly for believers of various religions to discuss their views relative to the religious views of others. This is not a thread for Atheists to question religion - use the existing Religion thread for that. Violators will be thread banned.
 

jackofalltrades

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There you go, a new thread.

Maybe the answer is yes even if it's only in a pagan sense. It's not a topic ordinary people discuss much nowadays, in England at least. But I know people who have some kind of "belief", albeit extremely wooly, the kind that wouldn't survive the mildest rigorous interrogation.

I'd say the most fundamental questions are based around what happens after this. When you are young you're immortal.But the time will come when you have to face up to leaving this world behind or someone leaving you. It's not impossible to cope with that without metaphysics, but I'd say many people fall back on something.

I know someone, an atheist, whose husband died 10 years ago but she has kept the urn and ashes so that her own ashes can be mixed with them. Go figure ?
 

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What the hell is an 'atheist hipster'?:lol:

"I stopped believing in god before it was cool!"
 

Mciahel Goodman

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What the hell is an 'atheist hipster'?:lol:

"I stopped believing in god before it was cool!"
I think it's more hipterish [sic] these days to be religious than atheist. Not religious in the slightest myself, but don't see the harm in people discussing it if they are. I just hope it doesn't turn into a "my religion is better than your religion" thread.
 

Dir Wangem

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I think it's more hipterish [sic] these days to be religious than atheist.
Hmm... I thought the new "cool" was to be an atheist, but at the same time almost apologetic about it. For two reasons: political correctness and not wanting to appear likesomeone from /r/Atheism. The latter is understandable enough...

I just hope it doesn't turn into a "my religion is better than your religion" thread.
Based on the history of humanity I'd say that it's..... Not likely to happen at all!
 

jackofalltrades

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There you go, a new thread.

Maybe the answer is yes even if it's only in a pagan sense. It's not a topic ordinary people discuss much nowadays, in England at least. But I know people who have some kind of "belief", albeit extremely wooly, the kind that wouldn't survive the mildest rigorous interrogation.

I'd say the most fundamental questions are based around what happens after this. When you are young you're immortal.But the time will come when you have to face up to leaving this world behind or someone leaving you. It's not impossible to cope with that without metaphysics, but I'd say many people fall back on something.

I know someone, an atheist, whose husband died 10 years ago but she has kept the urn and ashes so that her own ashes can be mixed with them. Go figure ?
Just to clarify, Raoul and I must have set up a new thread at the same time so, quite logically, he has merged the two.
But my title was : Are we all religious in one way or another ? Hence the "maybe yes" in my post
 

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Well so far this thread is failing in it's goals.

So anyways, went to church as a youngster. Never got much into it, some of the stories were cool. Moses, Noah and the Ark, they got the imagination going. Always liked going to church on Christmas Eve, the lighting, the songs, all the people coming together. Was active in my churches youth group mainly because a few friends were also, had great times including an awesome trip to NYC where we stayed in a church in Greenwich Village, the congregation was predominately gay. They had a square dance one night we were there and invited us, bunch of Methodists from a rural town in NY State, we had a blast.
 

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I am a practising catholic,those that goes to the mass on weekends.
I have been always quite linked with the church since my uncle,who unfortunately died last year was missionary all his life in Costa Rica,Nicaragua,Panamá,Perú.
He used to come every 3 years on holidays and was always nice to talk about all this stuff with him. He was very humble and quite modern so It was easy to feel confortable with him and tell him when his sermons have been very boring or irrelevant or the typical question "if god is good why he allows the illness and poverty?".
When I was older I lost a bit of interest.
I was in a Nun's college and I felt a bit forced to smile and participate in "Christian groups", an awful activity.
Most of my friends were the kind "I believe in god but I don't believe in the church" or ultra anti religion,adding some pretentious comment about how stupid was the religión, in every conversation.
So for a while I lost a bit of interest and even started reading books about Mary Magdalena,the secret years of Jesus,or a theory about Jesús dying in India.
Later,some years ago I found an ex priest (in the forum of Marca),he insisted about the faith,the most important of all this.
He talked to me about Medjugore ,where he had been and recommended me some nice readings.
At the end what you read and the people around you can influence your beliefs.
I feel that in Spain many people got tired of the extreme religious system with Franco and they don't want to believe or be involved,feeling that they will be brain washed,however my wife is polish and she and her family go to the mass really happy on Sunday,they enjoy their beliefs.
I am quite lazy to go to the church but my son had to do the first comunion so I had to go. Depending on the time can be very boring.Luckily in my church the priest is entertaining and knows to talk, there are a lot of kids,they bring drawings,offerings and there is music which helps a lot.
I have been in Fátima, and Santiago(close to my City),which is full of pilgrims all the year.
Obviously I have many questions, provoked for the swetened message of the modified bible and the lack of information about the life of Jesús.
Besides It seems that in Vaticano there is a current of thought saying that the church must understand the metaphorical meaning of Resurrection, as well as ultra conservative cardinals against some decisions of the Pope,who tries to open and modernize the church.
 
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ADJUDICATOR

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Do religious people feel like deeper scientific understanding is replacing religion or mostly unrelated to practicing religion? If it's the former do you feel it's a good thing?

I was a practicing Christian in my younger days but through indoctrination. I feel like picking and choosing elements from various religions to supplement personal principles( and codes of conduct ) is a natural progression. (biased opinion)
 

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I'm a fairly recent Catholic convert, previously non-churchgoing CofE from a non-religious family (although I attended a church primary school and was confirmed into the Church of England). Been searching all my life for something that made sense to me and as a teenager, I probably attended services of every Christian denomination you could think of.
Anglicans in the UK have lost their identity, IMO and whilst I can understand the wish to be current and relevant, I don't think I want to have my feet on shifting sands (that's just a personal view, I have nothing against Anglicans, of course).

I finally realised that Catholicism was what I'd been looking for (well, I realised it when I was in my 20s, but circumstances prevented me for many years from crossing the Tiber). The continuity from St Peter to our current Pope makes perfect sense to me, and I love the fact that I can attend the Mass all over the world and still understand what's going on. The connection with local communities is also very strong, plus I have a wonderful priest confessor.

In answer to your question @ADJUDICATOR, I welcome scientific advances. It doesn't diminish religion when brilliant people discover more and more about the world we live in and the universe beyond, it just makes you appreciate the wonder of the Creator even more.
 

carvajal

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Do religious people feel like deeper scientific understanding is replacing religion or mostly unrelated to practicing religion? If it's the former do you feel it's a good thing?

I was a practicing Christian in my younger days but through indoctrination. I feel like picking and choosing elements from various religions to supplement personal principles( and codes of conduct ) is a natural progression. (biased opinion)
I feel that the deeper scientific understanding can't explain the question of why we exist.
What you do about mixing religions is good if bring you peace and progression.
Once a priest told me that people find god in many different ways.
Even I read that the idea of 12 apostles was copied from previous religions.
 

AXVnee7

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I feel at fault for this. I genuinely wanted to know because the Nazarites of the Bible also had a prohibition on hair cutting and intoxication.

Studying overlapping aspects of different religions is cool to me.
Don't worry about it! I see it's led to the creation of a separate thread for religious discussion so it's not the worst outcome ;)


What's the Sikh version of the afterlife like?
So according to Sikhism, what we call the soul is actually a part of God, which has been separated from God (likeliest via big bang as we consider the universe we know to have been created from God itself). The objective is for the soul to return and merge with the essence of God, and a common analogy is that of a raindrop returning to the ocean. So when we die, we are judged according to Karmic law on our deeds and thoughts alone. We would consider that a Christian, Atheist and Sikh are equally judged on the way they lived their lives, and their religious beliefs as irrelevant. If you lived a unjust, wicked life you are punished by remaining in the circle of life and death. We don't believe in an eternal hell where people rot for eternity (we also don't believe in the devil) but actually life on Earth can be considered a 'hell' because we are exposed to much suffering. I sometimes wonder in my personal thoughts, if we have been sent back to Earth for committing bad deeds from a higher lifeform. Anyways, If you have lived a pure life, then your soul progresses to the spiritual realm. This is probably what you'd called heaven, though it's not the same as we think of in the West. In fact, this realm only represents the next stage of the journey, in the next world you begin spiritually developing and hence you ascend to different stages of spirituality (kind of like a pagoda). The 5th and highest level is where your soul is considered truly attuned to God. According to Sikhism, eventually the entire universe will merge back into God, and thus every soul (even the most ardent religious hater) will eventually be liberated from the cycle of birth-death.


Edit: So if any one has read the other Religion thread recently, you'll know I've been doing a Q&A with regards to Sikhism. I'll carry that on in this thread so I am happy for people to AMA, and I'll try my best to answer :)
 
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oates

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Shinto is where it's at.
It might just be. :)

I know I'm a christian bought up as an anglican who didn't really believe as a child, in fact I resented being made to go to church, yet I started to believe in God for myself as an adult. I'm probably not still an anglican because I have questions about whether christianity is the only faith that 'saves'.

Muslims, jews and christians all believe in the same God, they have different prophets, only the christian faith believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God but others believe him to be a prophet, maybe not even their most important one but we share so many details, bits of this and that and we still cannot get on or accept each other.

I began wondering what sort of christian I could be when I started to think whether there were other faiths that could believe in the same God but by other routes, education, culture, and time being barriers to sharing more but still sharing similar codes of behaviour, how to live and how to be kind to one another.

I don't want to start a cult, I don't even need to build a new theology around these imaginings but I'm open to the feeling that more than one faith can bring you to God and at the same time christianity is the one for me. I understand more about it obviously that I do other faiths but I believe in one creator, a creator who is not in conflict with other paths. It's not Lego but it is possible, just about.

There are problems with christianity. The history mainly, but for every Borgia Pope there has been a Francis or a John Paul to set it back on the path. When people blame christianity for all the ills of the world we have inherited I blame unscrupulous humans who merely used it as any human can use an organisation to be camouflaged by, to gain power over others. When people blame the Catholic Church for pedophiles I think much the same, these people will use any method to gain trust and be in a situation that furthers their aims. The Catholic Church and others are not pedophile organisations, those are not the aims of christianity. Football isn't bad but some people within it are. Are we supposed to start hating Football Clubs, football supporters, are they all pedophiles now? The Church isn't bad, the vast majority of people have earned that trust but been let down by a minority. We have these people as a small but now we are becoming aware of as a much larger percentage than previously thought within all of society. If you brand an organisation not by the good it has done but by what a smaller number have done then you are either unknowing of the truth or knowingly promoting BS.

Whatever faith it's impossible to be perfect but we can try every now and then. I merely believe that we have to respect different people, not necessarily believe or follow everyone else's path to God. Until I'm told otherwise of course ;)

In the meantime I have as many flaws as any other human being, no better, no worse.
 

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Not a follower of any religion or religious in any way really, but I've always felt a tinge of envy for the type of solidarity that religions seem to inspire among their followers. It can be quite awe-inspiring for an outsider to observe, and in certain places of pilgrimage such as the Western Wall, Varanasi or Mashad, the common purpose of the crowds and the type of ecstasy they appear to indulge in sometimes reminds me of an intense football match. Other more contemplative places such as Christian monasteries and mosques in the Middle East have their own special kind of reflective atmosphere which hints at age-long traditions of scholarly pursuits with established links going back centuries and even millennia - it's hard not to be moved by that type of aura.
 

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Don't worry about it! I see it's led to the creation of a separate thread for religious discussion so it's not the worst outcome ;)




So according to Sikhism, what we call the soul is actually a part of God, which has been separated from God (likeliest via big bang as we consider the universe we know to have been created from God itself). The objective is for the soul to return and merge with the essence of God, and a common analogy is that of a raindrop returning to the ocean. So when we die, we are judged according to Karmic law on our deeds and thoughts alone. We would consider that a Christian, Atheist and Sikh are equally judged on the way they lived their lives, and their religious beliefs as irrelevant. If you lived a unjust, wicked life you are punished by remaining in the circle of life and death. We don't believe in an eternal hell where people rot for eternity (we also don't believe in the devil) but actually life on Earth can be considered a 'hell' because we are exposed to much suffering. I sometimes wonder in my personal thoughts, if we have been sent back to Earth for committing bad deeds from a higher lifeform. Anyways, If you have lived a pure life, then your soul progresses to the spiritual realm. This is probably what you'd called heaven, though it's not the same as we think of in the West. In fact, this realm only represents the next stage of the journey, in the next world you begin spiritually developing and hence you ascend to different stages of spirituality (kind of like a pagoda). The 5th and highest level is where your soul is considered truly attuned to God. According to Sikhism, eventually the entire universe will merge back into God, and thus every soul (even the most ardent religious hater) will eventually be liberated from the cycle of birth-death.


Edit: So if any one has read the other Religion thread recently, you'll know I've been doing a Q&A with regards to Sikhism. I'll carry that on in this thread so I am happy for people to AMA, and I'll try my best to answer :)
I appreciate the response!

So I'm getting the vibe that Sikhism is a type of reformed Buddhism in the same way that Christianity is a reformed Judaism. Would that be accurate?
 

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Don't worry about it! I see it's led to the creation of a separate thread for religious discussion so it's not the worst outcome ;)




So according to Sikhism, what we call the soul is actually a part of God, which has been separated from God (likeliest via big bang as we consider the universe we know to have been created from God itself). The objective is for the soul to return and merge with the essence of God, and a common analogy is that of a raindrop returning to the ocean. So when we die, we are judged according to Karmic law on our deeds and thoughts alone. We would consider that a Christian, Atheist and Sikh are equally judged on the way they lived their lives, and their religious beliefs as irrelevant. If you lived a unjust, wicked life you are punished by remaining in the circle of life and death. We don't believe in an eternal hell where people rot for eternity (we also don't believe in the devil) but actually life on Earth can be considered a 'hell' because we are exposed to much suffering. I sometimes wonder in my personal thoughts, if we have been sent back to Earth for committing bad deeds from a higher lifeform. Anyways, If you have lived a pure life, then your soul progresses to the spiritual realm. This is probably what you'd called heaven, though it's not the same as we think of in the West. In fact, this realm only represents the next stage of the journey, in the next world you begin spiritually developing and hence you ascend to different stages of spirituality (kind of like a pagoda). The 5th and highest level is where your soul is considered truly attuned to God. According to Sikhism, eventually the entire universe will merge back into God, and thus every soul (even the most ardent religious hater) will eventually be liberated from the cycle of birth-death.


Edit: So if any one has read the other Religion thread recently, you'll know I've been doing a Q&A with regards to Sikhism. I'll carry that on in this thread so I am happy for people to AMA, and I'll try my best to answer :)
Cheers for the explanation.

I was wondering though, if someone doesn't believe in a higher power but still lives a good life, doing good things, helping others, does tha count for anything or he is considered by default a sinner and so continues the cycle? In Abrahamic religions, you can be the nicest person ever but if you don't believe in God then you are fecked. I don't know how this works in other religions.

Also, if someone is a sinner, will he be a human still in the next life, or will be downgraded to something lower?

I am really ignorant when it comes to non Abrahamic religions.
 

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Do religious people feel like deeper scientific understanding is replacing religion or mostly unrelated to practicing religion? If it's the former do you feel it's a good thing?

I was a practicing Christian in my younger days but through indoctrination. I feel like picking and choosing elements from various religions to supplement personal principles( and codes of conduct ) is a natural progression. (biased opinion)
I couldn't speak for other religions but as a Muslim I am extremely excited about the scientific strides being made in this day and age, and in the past. Even the deepest of scientific understanding, in fact the deeper the better. The fact I believe in God behind it all doesn't change anything that we are finding out scientifically nor is it conflicting or clouding in any of the major fields.
 

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Do religious people feel like deeper scientific understanding is replacing religion or mostly unrelated to practicing religion? If it's the former do you feel it's a good thing?
As someone who isn't religious, or atheist, and who operates 100% scientifically, I don't quite understand why science and religion have to be treated as opposing forces which can't co-exist. There's a reason both have existed along with each other and will continue to. Religion is a personal belief - and someone who believe this whole universe was put in place by some person/more evolved species/whatever can still continue to completely agree with scientific understanding. Science doesn't oppose existence of God or a theory like that, because in science we treat literally everything as a theory. There are no facts or truths. Centuries of scientific evolution has come across through belief in outrageous theories. Of course I'm not talking of a human walking on water for example, that is obviously fiction, but the very core of most religions that says that everything is a design rather than randomness is in their right to have that 'theory'. And anyway, as far as most scientific advancements go, they rarely ever directly contradict the core beliefs like the existence of a creator and can be explained under that hypothesis equally comfortably. That's pretty much the very core of scientific methodology, anyway. People often dwell way too much on the current understanding that science has provided forgetting the number of times that understanding itself has been modified and will be again, countless times. It is why I am a never side with atheists - science is constructed on complete open mindedness, atheism isn't.
 

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As someone who isn't religious, or atheist, and who operates 100% scientifically, I don't quite understand why science and religion have to be treated as opposing forces which can't co-exist. There's a reason both have existed along with each other and will continue to. Religion is a personal belief - and someone who believe this whole universe was put in place by some person/more evolved species/whatever can still continue to completely agree with scientific understanding. Science doesn't oppose existence of God or a theory like that, because in science we treat literally everything as a theory. There are no facts or truths. Centuries of scientific evolution has come across through belief in outrageous theories. Of course I'm not talking of a human walking on water for example, that is obviously fiction, but the very core of most religions that says that everything is a design rather than randomness is in their right to have that 'theory'. And anyway, as far as most scientific advancements go, they rarely ever directly contradict the core beliefs like the existence of a creator and can be explained under that hypothesis equally comfortably. That's pretty much the very core of scientific methodology, anyway. People often dwell way too much on the current understanding that science has provided forgetting the number of times that understanding itself has been modified and will be again, countless times. It is why I am a never side with atheists - science is constructed on complete open mindedness, atheism isn't.
The specific gods people actually believe in, rather than a vague creator, and the beliefs that come with said gods are in direct opposition with what science has uncovered about the universe.
 

oates

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The specific gods people actually believe in, rather than a vague creator, and the beliefs that come with said gods are in direct opposition with what science has uncovered about the universe.
Scientists not quite sure why some things only happen when observed is pretty interesting. Can't quite remember what they were saying about God a few weeks ago but they weren't saying there was no God.
 

oates

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I think it's possible that some people think that religious people, christians etc have a problem with science. If we believe that God created the Universe wouldn't it follow that we believe in the science that that took?
 

AXVnee7

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I appreciate the response!

So I'm getting the vibe that Sikhism is a type of reformed Buddhism in the same way that Christianity is a reformed Judaism. Would that be accurate?
Buddhism is a very similar religion to Sikhism, albeit the major difference of the significance of God of which there is very little in Buddhism as opposed to Sikhism. Ultimately though Sikhism is an independent religion in its own right. It wasn't based on or inspired by any other religion, but has its own message. Many concepts agree with Islam, many with Hinduism, many with Buddhism, Christianity etc. and this a good thing IMO, but some disagree too.
 

berbatrick

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I appreciate the response!

So I'm getting the vibe that Sikhism is a type of reformed Buddhism in the same way that Christianity is a reformed Judaism. Would that be accurate?
From what I've read, that's not really the case but it makes sense why they're similar.
Buddhism was a reaction or reform or revolt against many parts of the then-dominant Hindu beliefs and practices. This was ~500BC. It grew in popularity over the next 3-400 years, and Ashoka, one of the "best" Indian emperors, converted to Buddhism midway through his life (~250BC). At the same time some Buddhist practices were re-appropriated by Hinduism (while Buddhism itself became more rigid and ritualistic), and after the fall of the dynasty (Ashoka's grandson was the last IIRC), the next big empire was explicitly Hindu.

Sikhism was born at a time when Islam was the religion of Indian rulers (though not of most people), around 1400AD. There was a strong Bhakti movement, aimed at both Hinduism and Islam, trying at the same time to attack the rituals and "middlemen" needed to find god in both religions, as well as find a common ground in a personal love for god. One of the major figures of that movement was a poet named Kabir, and I noticed a few of his lines were quoted in the other thread. Sikhism was influenced by this movement (and other things), IMO it explains why Buddhism and Sikhism seem similar.
 

AXVnee7

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Cheers for the explanation.

I was wondering though, if someone doesn't believe in a higher power but still lives a good life, doing good things, helping others, does tha count for anything or he is considered by default a sinner and so continues the cycle? In Abrahamic religions, you can be the nicest person ever but if you don't believe in God then you are fecked. I don't know how this works in other religions.

Also, if someone is a sinner, will he be a human still in the next life, or will be downgraded to something lower?

I am really ignorant when it comes to non Abrahamic religions.
The problem would be what you might consider a good life, isn't the truest essence of what constitutes a good life. See you can live a good life and do good things, but the core obstacle for man is his ego. Every thought, action, emotion, reaction etc. as mentioned before is judged, but in our lives every single one of these is influenced by ego (whether directly or indirectly). Even doing something charitable feeds your ego, even if you don't realise it. From the ego stems lust, anger, greed and attachment. These are collectively known as the 5 thieves, as they are what influence all our actions and block us from the truth. In order to achieve enlightenment you have to conquer the 4, and finally surrender your ego.

A core concept of Sikhism, is that there's not really such a thing as self. What we call self is really a mixture of our personalities, genetics, identities, thought patterns, cultures and behaviours as shaped by our environment. All of these are associated with the human body and mind, and thus have no attachment to the soul. Don't get me wrong you're here and you're experiencing life but when you die, your memories, identity and experiences are left behind (but not lost necessarily). Part of becoming enlightened means realising the World (and Universe for that matter) is an illusion. Worldly desires that we chase everyday are just a temporary means of superficial happiness, the only true constant is God. The only way to become enlightened in Sikhism, is to meditate on God, thus you'd require a belief. So to answer your Q, it's tricky and very much a case by case scenario. It's not so much the lack of belief in God that'd be your undoing, it'd be the failure to defeat the Ego and living a life of self importance. You won't automatically be considered a sinner though on the basis of your belief in God, and God may ordain it that you be liberated by mercy. This will be the case for every single one of us eventually. No one is going to be consigned to rot in hell for eternity. Everyone will be liberated, it's a matter of in this lifetime or a thousand lifetimes.

If you are considered a sinner, yes you are downgraded to a lower lifeform. On Earth humans are considered the highest lifeform even without religion to tell you this, but as a human you have a genuine capability to achieve enlightenment. However being downgraded isn't the be all and end all, good actions will get you another chance. Who knows maybe with good deeds as an atheist you will be incarnated in another galaxy as a reward and second chance whereby you stand a far greater chance than any human. The essence of life is uniform across the universe and so it's very plausible.
 

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From what I've read, that's not really the case but it makes sense why they're similar.
Buddhism was a reaction or reform or revolt against many parts of the then-dominant Hindu beliefs and practices. This was ~500BC. It grew in popularity over the next 3-400 years, and Ashoka, one of the "best" Indian emperors, converted to Buddhism midway through his life (~250BC). At the same time some Buddhist practices were re-appropriated by Hinduism (while Buddhism itself became more rigid and ritualistic), and after the fall of the dynasty (Ashoka's grandson was the last IIRC), the next big empire was explicitly Hindu.

Sikhism was born at a time when Islam was the religion of Indian rulers (though not of most people), around 1400AD. There was a strong Bhakti movement, aimed at both Hinduism and Islam, trying at the same time to attack the rituals and "middlemen" needed to find god in both religions, as well as find a common ground in a personal love for god. One of the major figures of that movement was a poet named Kabir, and I noticed a few of his lines were quoted in the other thread. Sikhism was influenced by this movement (and other things), IMO it explains why Buddhism and Sikhism seem similar.
Indeed Saint Kabir is a very highly revered figure in Sikhism, so much that his compositions were included in the GGS. I believe I did quote him in the other thread too.
 

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Sikhism was born at a time when Islam was the religion of Indian rulers (though not of most people), around 1400AD. There was a strong Bhakti movement, aimed at both Hinduism and Islam, trying at the same time to attack the rituals and "middlemen" needed to find god in both religions, as well as find a common ground in a personal love for god. One of the major figures of that movement was a poet named Kabir, and I noticed a few of his lines were quoted in the other thread. Sikhism was influenced by this movement (and other things), IMO it explains why Buddhism and Sikhism seem similar.
Who's the middleman in Islam without whom you can't find God?