Religion, what's the point?

Invictus

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Why does religion and FAR right seems to match so many times? It seems to happen times and times over history.
If I had to guess (as an amateur, not a theologian):
  • Religion is a handy tool to legitimize your cause and make it seem irreproachable (as it's the highest moral authority in the minds of an endless number of people, including some in this very thread).
  • Followers can be emboldened and mobilized to act with impunity because they believe their cause is righteous (like a commandment from the gods themselves, and their gods are always right).
  • It can be used to amplify or instill distrust and fear of the enemy (be it another religion or tribe or political party), and inject poisonous agendas into the minds and veins of the masses using figures and texts they wholeheartedly trust.
  • With religion, you can effectively control people, enforce hierarchies and robust power structures and strict routines, and consolidate the hoi poloi (and those things tend to be the hallmarks of right-leaning authoritarianism).
  • Right wingers tap into peoples' irrationally and rage, and yearning for order and idyllic traditional values from a time that never existed (which can overlap with conservative religious cultures and identities that were forged in the distant past).
 

Zlaatan

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Tragic.. though he sounds like he's had his mind poisoned by politics just as much as religion. Can't believe how well the mom handled it.
 

Gehrman

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The irony of someone trying to complain about 'mansplaining' when both the Quran and Hadith state you can rape the female slaves you have in your possession. When the Hadith state Muhammed commited genocide against a tribe, tortured their leader in order to find his wealth and then got angry with Bilal because he let the leaders daughter see this. He then later raped the leaders daughter. This is all in your hadith. How about Aisha being 9 when their marriage when their marriage was consumated according to your hadith. Would you care to mansplain those hadith to me?

You don't follow the hadith or quran, you just lie about them.
Could you reference the hadiths that narrate this? because I'm not quite familiar with this this specific episode.
 
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ThierryFabregas

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Could you reference the hadiths that narrate this? because I'm not quite familiar with this this specific episode.
Essentially these are the stories of both Rayhana and Safiyyah where their tribes males/fathers/husbands were all massacred and they were taken as slavewomen. Safiyyah agreed to become a wife out of fear where as Rayhana did not and was taken as a concubine Rayhana.

After years of virtual stalemate between himself and the Meccan army, Muhammad decided to plunder the Jewish village of Khaybar, to the north of Madinah. Khaybar was a fertile oasis filled with lush palm trees flourishing vegetation. Furthermore, the Jewish inhabitants, many of whom were expelled from Madinah by Muhammad just a few years earlier, were skilled craftsmen with stores of gold and valuable weaponry. Muhammad gathered his troops on the outskirts of the town. Preparing his armies for a surprise raid at dawn, he shouted “When we descend upon their precincts, terrible indeed shall be the morning of those who had been warned!”

With that, Muhammad’s men descended upon the sleeping town, wreaking havoc, cutting palm trees, killing men, and enslaving women. One of the men that was captured was Kinana. Kinana was rumored to have knowledge of the location of a great treasure. Muhammad had his men torture Kinana to learn the treasure’s location, threatening him with death if he refused to disclose it. After finding the treasure, Muhammad had Kinana killed.

As the village lay in defeat, the bloodied and bruised bodies of the dead scattered about the rode, Muhammad had his men tie up the women and force them into sexual slavery. The women, bounded by rope and completely distraught, were screaming, wailing, pulling at their own hair and rubbing their faces in dust. Walking by, Muhammad referred to them as “she devils.” He gave orders to his companions to “chose whatever women they wanted.”

One of those women was 17 year old Safiyyah Bint Huyay. Safiyyah was the daughter of the tribe’s chief. She was also the wife of Kinana, whom Muhammad had tortured and killed earlier. Once Muhammad learned of her status, and of her striking beauty, he ordered her to be reserved for himself. He threw his cloak over her to show that she was his property.

She was cleaned, beautified, and prepared for the pleasure of the 60 year old self proclaimed prophet—the same man who ordered the raiding of her village, the enslavement of her friends, the murder of her father, and the torture and death of her husband.

Al- Bukhari Narrates:
Narrated Abdul Aziz:
Anas said, "When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there (early in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet. He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, ‘Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.’ He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, ‘Muhammad (has come).’ (Some of our companions added, ‘With his army.’) We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, ‘O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.’ The Prophet said, ‘Go and take any slave girl.’ He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.’ So the Prophet said, ‘Bring him along with her.’ So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, ‘Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.’" Anas added: "The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."
Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her." Anas added, "While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet. So the Prophet was a bridegroom and he said, ‘Whoever has anything (food) should bring it.’ He spread out a leather sheet (for the food) and some brought dates and others cooking butter. (I think he (Anas) mentioned As-Sawaq). So they prepared a dish of Hais (a kind of meal). And that was Walima (the marriage banquet) of Allah's Apostle." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367)

Ibn Hisham states:

“Safiyah was born in Medinah. She belonged to the Jewish tribe of Banu 'I-Nadir. When this tribe was expelled from Medinah in the year 4 A.H, Huyaiy was one of those who settled in the fertile colony of Khaibar together with Kinana ibn al-Rabi' to whom Safiyah was married a little before the Muslims attacked Khaibar. She was then seventeen. She had formerly been the wife of Sallam ibn Mishkam, who divorced her. One mile from Khaibar. Here the Prophet married Safiyah. She was groomed and made-up for the Prophet by Umm Sulaim, the mother of Anas ibn Malik. They spent the night there. Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of the Prophet the whole night. When, in the early dawn, the Prophet saw Abu Ayyub strolling up and down, he asked him what he meant by this sentry-go; he replied: "I was afraid for you with this young lady. You had killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, and till recently she was an unbeliever. I was really afraid for you on her account". The Prophet prayed for Abu Ayyub al-Ansari (Ibn Hisham, p. 766)
 

Roane

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Essentially these are the stories of both Rayhana and Safiyyah where their tribes males/fathers/husbands were all massacred and they were taken as slavewomen. Safiyyah agreed to become a wife out of fear where as Rayhana did not and was taken as a concubine Rayhana.

After years of virtual stalemate between himself and the Meccan army, Muhammad decided to plunder the Jewish village of Khaybar, to the north of Madinah. Khaybar was a fertile oasis filled with lush palm trees flourishing vegetation. Furthermore, the Jewish inhabitants, many of whom were expelled from Madinah by Muhammad just a few years earlier, were skilled craftsmen with stores of gold and valuable weaponry. Muhammad gathered his troops on the outskirts of the town. Preparing his armies for a surprise raid at dawn, he shouted “When we descend upon their precincts, terrible indeed shall be the morning of those who had been warned!”

With that, Muhammad’s men descended upon the sleeping town, wreaking havoc, cutting palm trees, killing men, and enslaving women. One of the men that was captured was Kinana. Kinana was rumored to have knowledge of the location of a great treasure. Muhammad had his men torture Kinana to learn the treasure’s location, threatening him with death if he refused to disclose it. After finding the treasure, Muhammad had Kinana killed.

As the village lay in defeat, the bloodied and bruised bodies of the dead scattered about the rode, Muhammad had his men tie up the women and force them into sexual slavery. The women, bounded by rope and completely distraught, were screaming, wailing, pulling at their own hair and rubbing their faces in dust. Walking by, Muhammad referred to them as “she devils.” He gave orders to his companions to “chose whatever women they wanted.”

One of those women was 17 year old Safiyyah Bint Huyay. Safiyyah was the daughter of the tribe’s chief. She was also the wife of Kinana, whom Muhammad had tortured and killed earlier. Once Muhammad learned of her status, and of her striking beauty, he ordered her to be reserved for himself. He threw his cloak over her to show that she was his property.

She was cleaned, beautified, and prepared for the pleasure of the 60 year old self proclaimed prophet—the same man who ordered the raiding of her village, the enslavement of her friends, the murder of her father, and the torture and death of her husband.

Al- Bukhari Narrates:
Narrated Abdul Aziz:
Anas said, "When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there (early in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet. He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, ‘Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.’ He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, ‘Muhammad (has come).’ (Some of our companions added, ‘With his army.’) We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, ‘O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.’ The Prophet said, ‘Go and take any slave girl.’ He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.’ So the Prophet said, ‘Bring him along with her.’ So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, ‘Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.’" Anas added: "The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."
Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her." Anas added, "While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet. So the Prophet was a bridegroom and he said, ‘Whoever has anything (food) should bring it.’ He spread out a leather sheet (for the food) and some brought dates and others cooking butter. (I think he (Anas) mentioned As-Sawaq). So they prepared a dish of Hais (a kind of meal). And that was Walima (the marriage banquet) of Allah's Apostle." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367)

Ibn Hisham states:

“Safiyah was born in Medinah. She belonged to the Jewish tribe of Banu 'I-Nadir. When this tribe was expelled from Medinah in the year 4 A.H, Huyaiy was one of those who settled in the fertile colony of Khaibar together with Kinana ibn al-Rabi' to whom Safiyah was married a little before the Muslims attacked Khaibar. She was then seventeen. She had formerly been the wife of Sallam ibn Mishkam, who divorced her. One mile from Khaibar. Here the Prophet married Safiyah. She was groomed and made-up for the Prophet by Umm Sulaim, the mother of Anas ibn Malik. They spent the night there. Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of the Prophet the whole night. When, in the early dawn, the Prophet saw Abu Ayyub strolling up and down, he asked him what he meant by this sentry-go; he replied: "I was afraid for you with this young lady. You had killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, and till recently she was an unbeliever. I was really afraid for you on her account". The Prophet prayed for Abu Ayyub al-Ansari (Ibn Hisham, p. 766)
Have you taken this from CEMB? Copy and paste?

I'd suggest they are a pointless source and mostly fabricated and out right lies usually
 

hasanejaz88

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Islam is no different to any other major religion that has caused and continues to cause violence throughout history. That's what religions do, you need religion to control people's thoughts and actions, free of opposition. It's as much a political tool as it is that the people at the top truly feel that rules they apply come from God to them.
 

calodo2003

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Islam is no different to any other major religion that has caused and continues to cause violence throughout history. That's what religions do, you need religion to control people's thoughts and actions, free of opposition. It's as much a political tool as it is that the people at the top truly feel that rules they apply come from God to them.
Don’t forget money maker.
 

Roane

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Islam is no different to any other major religion that has caused and continues to cause violence throughout history. That's what religions do, you need religion to control people's thoughts and actions, free of opposition. It's as much a political tool as it is that the people at the top truly feel that rules they apply come from God to them.
See I disagree with this. A basic understanding of religions and how they came about was about letting go of the status quo. It was about going against society as it was. To release one self from the shackles of control.

From Abraham to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad there was persecution and torture because they went against the prevailing norms of society.

That said organised religion today is some of what you say. Because people aren't religious imo. If they were temples, churches and mosques would be destroyed and the so called purveyors of religion put in shackles
 

Roane

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I hope one day (past my lifetime), people will look back at religion the same way we look at slavery. Wondering how religion was an accepted practice with so much power in everyday life.
Slavery hasn't gone away. It's just changed and done cleverly.

Similarly the very things religion fought against are being implemented cleverly.
 

Roane

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This is pretty much inevitable but as you say, probably not in our lifetimes unfortunately.

Most research seems to indicate an increase in religion. Iirc pew centre said it grew by about 10% ish
 

Carolina Red

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Most research seems to indicate an increase in religion. Iirc pew centre said it grew by about 10% ish
With a vast, vast majority of that coming from birth rates in the more religious developing world.

Religions aren’t converting people to grow, they’re birthing them.
 

Gehrman

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With a vast, vast majority of that coming from birth rates in the more religious developing world.

Religions aren’t converting people to grow, they’re birthing them.
Not to mention, you're automatically Muslim if you're born into a Muslim family. And the penalty for leaving Islam under Islamic law if you don't repent is death. That's how a Mafia operates.
 

Gehrman

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Slavery hasn't gone away. It's just changed and done cleverly.

Similarly the very things religion fought against are being implemented cleverly.
On the subject of slavery, Muhammad and his best mates were slavers. He was kind enough to free his own slaves the day before he knew he was dying which was also conveniently when he didn't need them anymore. I don't think it's a coincidence that Saudi Arabia and Yemen were two of the last countries to abolish legalised slavery back in 1968-1970. And Mauritania in 1981.
 
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Gehrman

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Have you taken this from CEMB? Copy and paste?

I'd suggest they are a pointless source and mostly fabricated and out right lies usually
The one from Al- Bukhari is on Sunnah.com. Is that a fabrication as well? As far as I understand hadiths from Al- Bukhari are considered to be authoritive. It is referenced to be in (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 367). Which I am not going to buy and read just see whether its in there.

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:371
 
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Gehrman

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Forget Mafia, this is exactly how Abu Dhabi, Qatar and Saudi governments operate.

Doesn't make any of what they do (e.g. Khashogi) correct in Islam. Rushdie cannot be put on trial anywhere on this planet as there is no (true and proper) Islamic jurisprudence anywhere.

What the guy did stabbing Rushdie is not allowed in Islam. What others do giving fatwas to stab him is also not allowed in Islam.
What is the difference in a nutshell between Saudi Arabia's legal system and true and proper Islamic jurisprudence?
 

Roane

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I don't think this is really a suitable example and would also depend on the context. First of all, being a vegan has very very clear rules (or really only one rule), though even within that, there is some range. If I saw a guy eating a big mac on a daily basis? Then no, he's not a vegan and is just openly lying. If I saw him eating a big mac once in an otherwise unblemished years of being a vegan, then yes they're still a vegan. If its someone making the change from being an omnivore and they're gradually cutting meat out with blips here and there, yes they're a vegan because its in the intent and they're trying.

Its also a dangerous road. The reality is different Muslims will have different thresholds for what they consider to be Muslim. I know muslims who drink alcohol, are they Muslims? How about pre-marital sex? How about not praying? How about only fasting some days in Ramadan? I'm not talking lapsed Muslims, Im talking people who would still class themselves Muslims, follow Muslim teachings in the majority of ways and do a mixture of the things above (ie they may drink on occasion but they also pray 5 times a day, fast, are abstinent etc etc).

This topic is always a bit difficult because as someone else said above, you have some who wash their hands of the situation and say well what he's done is not Muslim at all and therefore that's it and you have others who, like that Thierry guy, are interested mostly in inflammatory content and posting in a way that they must surely know is not conducive to any kind of conversation.

Does Islam say any random person can run up to someone who, rightly or wrongly, has been deemed to be an apostate and written offensive things about Islam, and kill them in the street? No it does not. Does Islamic law allow for the death penalty for apostasy in certain conditions? Yes it does.

I've said before that my wife has an Islamic background on one side of her family and I'm obviously very familiar with her extended family back home. We've also been part of various Islamic communities here in the UK, including via a Sunday Arabic school for the kids. Not one person in those groups has ever been violent. However, some of them do sometimes make statements.....that are unsavoury. These are not particularly uncommon. Some may even be called a dog whistle. Are any of these people ever going to act on some of what they've said and do violent acts? No, I don't think so. However, in certain circumstances, these comments could certainly rile others up, yet they very rarely, if ever, get challenged.

Its similar to what Tucker Carlson for example does or on a smaller scale, if someone is at the pub or whatever making comments about how immigrants are doing x or muslims doing y and its affecting our country. They're not necessarily making violent statements themselves and not actually committing violent acts. Yet their speech can incite others if left relatively unchallenged.

Constantly saying that these people aren't actually Muslim or don't represent Islam unfortunately for me doesn't quite cut it. It allows us to wash our hands of the situation and not look at the root causes of why someone attacked Rushdie with the intent to kill, why someone else in Japan killed the Japanese translator, why someone stabbed and almost killed the Italian translator, why someone shot and almost killed the Norwegian translator, why dozens of people were killed in a fire meant to kill the Turkish translator.

Words do have consequences.

This is a good post. However my point is and was simple. The rush to label any killer who is slightly tanned and has a link to a "Muslim" country and once visited a mosque is there for all to see.

The vegan eating big Mac is a good example for me of how these things work.

In Islam we also have the new Muslim who is gradually learning and adapting. However as a fundamental rule the likes of NOI, qadiani, certain Shia can never be Muslim. These are the equivalent of eating a big Mac daily and saying I'm vegan.

What we need to do is look at what a religion is and its core values. If a Muslim sounding guy says X but the religion says Y then it's not Islamic. It's as simple as that.

The apostasy and death issue is clear too. Becoming a non Muslim doesn't carry in itself a death penalty. One of the Prophets wives was married to someone else when they emigrated to Abyssinia. He became non Muslim. Wasn't killed. The ones killed were the ones who became non Muslim and started to create mischief for the Muslims. In short attacked them.

These things have contexts. I get tired of seeing statements being made. And just attributed to any religion.
 

Roane

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What is the difference in a nutshell between Saudi Arabia's legal system and true and proper Islamic jurisprudence?

When it comes to Islamic jurisprudence there are set guidelines. Any differing without source makes it unislamic.

Of you had a bucket of water and put one drop of urine in it is it still water? If jurisprudence was water and a country was the drop them it's no longer Islamic jurisprudence.

If that makes sense. Saudis constitution and the rights it gives to the monarchy is enough to make it non islamic
 

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It's hardly much of an upgrade that if Rushdie had been put in an islamic trial and said "I honestly don't regret losing my faith and becoming an ex-muslim. And I also don't regret writing a book satirising Muhammed". It would have been totally yay okay to kill him. LIke I said before this is very much how a Mafia operates, certainly not a religion that is supposed to be about love and compassion and all that jazz.
You're always going to get nutjobs in every most belief systems (some more than in others). Just look at right wing terrorism in the US recently. It would be hard to blame Christians for militants who vaguely attach themselves to Christianity to advance their nationalist or power seeking ambitions. Joseph Kony, David Koresh, and Jim Jones are other examples of this. You wouldn't hold Christianity responsible for any of these, despite there being some things in the Bible that could be construed as condoning violence in the present.
 

Gehrman

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You're always going to get nutjobs in every most belief systems (some more than in others). Just look at right wing terrorism in the US recently. It would be hard to blame Christians for militants who vaguely attach themselves to Christianity to advance their nationalist or power seeking ambitions. Joseph Kony, David Koresh, and Jim Jones are other examples of this. You wouldn't hold Christianity responsible for any of these, despite there being some things in the Bible that could be construed as condoning violence in the present.
I was talking about how it could have been allowed to kill Rushdie were he to partake in an Islamic trial. I'm not talking about a few nutjobs but a tenet of a religion.
 

Raoul

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I was talking about how it could have been allowed to kill Rushdie were he to partake in an Islamic trial. I'm not talking about a few nutjobs but a tenet of a religion.
That would obviously depend on which country - most would probably have him executed, but then again the vast majority of the middle east is authoritarian ranging from absolute monarchies to faux democracy dictatorships.
 
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ThierryFabregas

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Have you taken this from CEMB? Copy and paste?

I'd suggest they are a pointless source and mostly fabricated and out right lies usually
Yes it is, there's many well read people there who read these stories and consequentially questioned their religion. I used to be a Muslim myself, that is how I came across the website. But are you suggesting Al- Bukhari and Ibn Hisham are pointless sources? Because both are quoted there and one has been verified for you in this thread.

Are you a Quranist who rejects all Hadith sources? I would understand this as the Hadith were writen 250-300 years, so none of them are reliable in terms of witness testimony surely anymore than the stories of Robin Hood. In turn many more were probably doctored many years after this because of the different peoples agendas. Both Muslims and none Muslims generally accept this.

Are you aware that the Quran states that the earth is flat? Do you agree with this? I can point you to other scientific mistakes in the Quran if you are interested.
 

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What do for example Saudi or Iranian officials say? Do they distinguish between Islamic policy and national policy? And are they challenged by scholars on their Islamic policies?
The Qur'an and Hadith are mainly very clear for man kind and it is clear from those that there is not a single country that can call itself a true Khilafah (jurisprudence). Some may be 90% there but that is basically 0%, as stated quite clearly. It's all or nothing, no in-between.

The leaders of those countries can say what they like. As we have seen, they pretty much do and say what they please anyway (Khashogi again, women rights, etc). Yes they are challenged by mainstream scholars.

And what Raoul said:

That would obviously depend on which country - most would probably have him executed, but then again the vast majority of the middle east is authoritarian ranging from absolute monarchies to faux democracy dictatorships.
 

2cents

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This is a good post. However my point is and was simple. The rush to label any killer who is slightly tanned and has a link to a "Muslim" country and once visited a mosque is there for all to see.

The vegan eating big Mac is a good example for me of how these things work.

In Islam we also have the new Muslim who is gradually learning and adapting. However as a fundamental rule the likes of NOI, qadiani, certain Shia can never be Muslim. These are the equivalent of eating a big Mac daily and saying I'm vegan.

What we need to do is look at what a religion is and its core values. If a Muslim sounding guy says X but the religion says Y then it's not Islamic. It's as simple as that.

The apostasy and death issue is clear too. Becoming a non Muslim doesn't carry in itself a death penalty. One of the Prophets wives was married to someone else when they emigrated to Abyssinia. He became non Muslim. Wasn't killed. The ones killed were the ones who became non Muslim and started to create mischief for the Muslims. In short attacked them.

These things have contexts. I get tired of seeing statements being made. And just attributed to any religion.
I think in this debate over "who is a Muslim?" and "what makes something Islamic?", Muslims and non-Muslims often tend to talk past each other. They each approach the debate in different terms. I don't want to offend you, but reading your posts on this forum you come across as a Muslim who is particularly concerned with strictly demarcating the boundaries of your faith. For the sake of this argument, I will assume this concern springs from a genuine desire to ensure that your community, family, etc. are not led astray and remain true to what you believe to be the straight path.

Non-Muslims simply don't share these concerns when considering the questions set out above. Since we don't accept the fundamental basis of Islam - belief in the unity/oneness of God and the finality of Muhammad's mission - debates and conflicts among those who do claim adherence to these fundamentals - but differ over their details, interpretation, and consequences - simply appear as intra-Muslim debates. So when we think about who is a Muslim or what makes something Islamic, for the most part we are less interested in whatever ideal of Islam an individual Muslim might aspire to fulfil, and more concerned with the actual historical product of Muhammad's mission. In other words, there is little reason for a non-Muslim to deny the Islamic nature of a particular group or individual as long as their conviction that they are Islamic appears sincere and their identity is recognizably a historical product of the idea embodied in the shahada.

We can of course identify those trends among Muslims which have established the dominance of their interpretation (what we might call orthodoxy) in history, and conversely recognize other trends and movements whose ideas have been more peripheral (heterodoxy). So for example, it is common for non-Muslims to consider the jurisprudence of the four madhahib as constituting orthodoxy in Islam, while, say, the Isma'ilis would often be considered a somewhat heterodox group or sect. But in the terms in which we think about these things, both are recognizably Islamic. For non-Muslims, the establishment of dominance or orthodoxy is not a marker of religious truth or correctness in Islam, but simply a product of the forces of history.
 
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