This is the crux of the matter IMO. For a manager who rightly bemoaned our poor record in Europe over the years, Fergie twice failed to build on Champion's League winning sides, allowing rivals to catch up and overtake us. I can understand the reasoning post-99, although it's criminal that team never even made another final. But post-08 there are no excuses really, we simply didn't give ourselves the best possible chance to stay competitive - signing the likes of Robben, Sneijder, Silva and Toure would have done just that - instead they went to our rivals, and we declined.
"Replacing Ronaldo with Valencia"
- Thread starter adexkola
- Start date
ok. Valencia has never been one of the best players in the world. He is never one to be mentioned as a Balon D'or contender. Both Ribbery and Robben have been right up there so they must be another level to Valencia at his best. His game has always been far more limited than theirs.I honestly don't think that Ribery and Robben were many shades above what Valencia offered at his best. And for all the muppetry over them they've won only one CL and multiple Bundesliga titles in a, um, less competitive league. And why is Van der Vaart and Sneidjer being mentioned???
Fair enough on Owen. Hard to see the logic there. We did win a league with him
Re-writing history slightly here I feel. Like it has been mentioned, Robben and Ribery were much better at the time and would of been the closest we would of got in terms of a World Class replacement. Don't get me wrong though, Valencia was excellent in the first 18 months but certainly not world class.
and they politely told us to feck off, because who the hell would want to be coached by David Moyes other than Fellaini
. It was the most disparing window after also not getting Herrera we end up overpaying for Fellaini on the last day ... and now I just threw up a little For me, this has been as big an issue in Fergie's last few years as the lack of enough quality signings. Very few young players who had good potential failed to live up to it. Rafael, Anderson, Nani, Evans, Jones - I do believe they had great talent.
Robben was the only one of the two we could have signed at the time. And Valencia being named our player of the season and being given the 7 shirt happened after those first 18 months.
Never a like for like replacement though.
The most painfull part for me was watching players who I felt we would normally sign, go to City. City wouldn't have gone anywhere in world football if we had stopped them from getting all 3 of Aguero, Silva and Toure, who we were all heavily linked with at the time. Let me not getinto the Robben/Sneijder debacle, I was fully convinced we were going to sign one or both, they both went to different teams for not up to 30m. They both practically dragged their teams to the CL final the next season or so
Valencia was a decent player, until he forgot how to attack. Problem was, he replaced probably the best player on the planet.
We really should have signed Robben and Wesley Sneijder at the time
I'm sure the failure of Hargreaves and Anderson, the performances of Nani and the fact that we lost Ronaldo..meant Fergie lost interest in these young foreign talents unless they were really cheap ie Hernandez. We signed the bulk of players from within the country after that ie Young, Jones, Smalling and even Van Persie...the main exception being David De Gea.
Robben also did not leave Real until late August. I'm not sure it was known he's available until Real decided to recoup some cash.
Fergie never signed players 'on the rebound'. I've never understood quite why this forum is so obtuse in acknowledging this simple fact.
Agreed.
Clearly we were nancially strained at the time.
It was tipping point from which we became the second best team in Europe to our steady decline to where we are now.
Agreed.
Without question.
Our failure to invest sufficiently between 2009 to 2014 cost us an absolute fortune.
Two missed CLs.
We are left playing catch up in a market that has gotten 20% more expensive every summer.
Just occurred to me that the timing of this thread is interesting. In a week where Wayne Rooney is getting a testimonial, yet continues to be crucified across many different threads. A dislike that many would justify on the basis that he did what a lot of people are doing in this thread. Reacted to our transfer policy after selling Ronaldo by questioning the ambitions of the club.
Yeah its one of the funniest statements I ever read, yeah look what robben has done at bayern that is far superior to anything valencia has ever done at united, fact remains fergie made so many poor decisions even going back to 2008 by buying berbatov, which proved to be a poor fergie buy. Robben and ribbery world class match winners, valencia a very good squad player, its like saying park is on sanchez level, what we saw under fergie was no longer buying the top players, but shopping for mediocre players with the odd DDG, smalling and RVP, other than that between 2008-12 we bought very mediocre
I don't hold anything against Rooney. At the time I thought it was just a money grab, which I have no problems with. Get your money and all that.
But yes, I do recall many more people being mad at Rooney and disagreeing with his assessment, than supporters of the theory that Valencia was insufficient.
This is just muppet talk.
Valencia was a good signing, it's just that Ronaldo and Tevez left us in one summer and we bought Obertan and Valencia and Owen free transfer as replacements. It's easy to see why we went from one of the top 2 teams in Europe up to 2009 to some way off in the following years.
Now there may have been no Ronaldo level players available to replace him, but Robben and Sneijder both left Madrid that summer they signed Ronaldo, absolutely ludicrous we didn't land them in return. The big fee was also a chance to improve the other areas of the team to compensate for what we may be losing in attack, such as the midfield, but that areas was neglected for a further 4 years.
Now there may have been no Ronaldo level players available to replace him, but Robben and Sneijder both left Madrid that summer they signed Ronaldo, absolutely ludicrous we didn't land them in return. The big fee was also a chance to improve the other areas of the team to compensate for what we may be losing in attack, such as the midfield, but that areas was neglected for a further 4 years.
I was a little bit different in that I thought Rooney's concerns about "ambitions" were genuine but foolish. I thought he was underestimating Fergie. Hindsight has, to an extent, validated his concerns and proved my own unswerving faith to be a bit too optimistic.
It's tough to know how much the Glazers had influenced that very absurd summer. I just find it hard to believe that, having lost Ronaldo and Tevez within the space of a week, Fergie sat down with Glazers, and they told him "your transfer budget for this window is £20m of the £80m you just received from the sale". He'd have laughed in their face. I just can't believe he'd think that's an acceptable way to treat the manager of United, and not only did he go along with it, but publicly defended them by telling everyone they've always granted him whatever money he asked for. If they didnt even make the Ronaldo money available to him, I think he'd have quit and made sure everyone knew the reason.
He was right, but went about it the wrong way maybe.
Yeah. I think that's fair. Although the contract negotiations was the obvious time to air his concerns. It gave him the leverage to secure promises about future investment in the squad, as well as pressuring the club to make him an offer he couldn't refuse. A bit machiavellian but no worse than - for example - Rio arranging a public meeting with Peter Kenyon. At the time my main beef with him was his lack of faith in Fergie. It's definitely ironic that there's a huge crossover now between people who hate him for expressing those concerns and people who think history has proved him right.
My memory of that episode is a bit hazy, but hasn't it been confirmed since that he had an agreement in place with City? I was under the impression that was what was driving most of the hatred. But yeah, the contempt he showed for SAF was below the belt, but not a hanging offense these days.
did I miss us winning it the year Fergie left though?
He chose Real Madrid.
Even if Ferguson was able to still win titles with that squad it doesn't mean the team didn't go into decline
Valencia was a good signing. Sometimes you need to play it safe.
But it should have been Valencia + someone else. Valencia and Ribery. Valencia and Sneijder. Valencia and Benzema.
But it should have been Valencia + someone else. Valencia and Ribery. Valencia and Sneijder. Valencia and Benzema.
Fellaini on deadline is the worst of all time
He wasn't going to be a direct Ronaldo replacement anyway and was a perfectly good signing but we had £80m of Ronaldo money with players like Aguero, Silva, Hazard and a few others available in the next 2-3 years yet we did not address Ronaldo's exit at all. It was a good chance to inject more quality into the team yet we mostly went for bargains until Fergie left, one van Persie transfer aside.
We were poor between 2009 and 2012 in the market which is largely why we're in current position.
We were poor between 2009 and 2012 in the market which is largely why we're in current position.
It was symbolic of a dropping of standards, I suppose. We went from Ronaldo and Giggs bossing the wings to Valencia and bad Nani/Young bossing defenders shins, from Carrick and Scholes running games to Cleverly and Anderson running (sometimes).
I don't think anyone could see it as replacing Ronaldo with Valencia. We replaced a RW for a RW and SAF made Rooney the focal point of our attack. Valencia for RW and Owen/Berbatov to chip in with more goals was what I believe the plan.
Muppet Talk? ok. This isn't even a complete list but lets compare their individual renown/achievements in the game, so we can see that the whole footballing community must be 'muppets.' The only thing of note is Tony V made the premier league team of the year in 2010. He has achieved no other recognition that wasn't internal/club specific. It is comparing complete different classes of players. Even a non football fan would recognise this.
Enjoy
Robben:
- 2010 World Cup, Robben was nominated for the World Cup Golden Ball (player of the WORLD CUP).
- 2014 World Cup Robben was again on the 10 man shortlist for the world cup's golden ball which means best player at the whole tournament.
- PFA team of the year 2005
- 2010 footballer of the year in Germany
- UEFA Team of the Year: 2011, 2014
- UEFA Best Player in Europe Award 2013 (4th place)
- UEFA Best Player in Europe Award 2014 (3rd place)
- UEFA Champions League Final Man of the Match: 2013
- UEFA Champions League Team of the Season: 2013–14
- FIFA World Cup Bronze Ball: 2014
- FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 2014
- FIFA FIFPro World XI: 2014
- FIFA Ballon d'Or: 4th place 2014
- French Player of the Year: 2007, 2008, 2013
Just look at our reactions to defeats against barca 2009 and 2011
2009 - sell ronaldo and let tevez go, signings, valencia, owen, obertan and diouff
2011 - signings, DDG, young and jones
Its pathetic how we did not even look to better ourselves, almost like fergie accepted or did not have the energy to get to the next level. 2008 was a spectacular reaction of not even building on our 2008 success, instead of looking to accept ronaldo saw a different path, we beg him to stay one more year, sign berbatov who was not better than what we had, and let quality players be replaced with mediocre players to the point, where cleverley, valencia, young, berbatov, park and welbeck started filling up positions left by better players from 2008 onwards
What happened in the 2009-10 season and 2011/12 season?
Finished second a point behind chelsea in the title race in may 2010
finished second losing the title to city on goal difference may 2012
So failure to add to the squad 2009 and 2011 cost us the PL twice, and overall this path we took from 2008 onwards is costing us big time
Come on! the Berbatov signing was excellent at the time because he was class. He was like Zlatan. I saw Berbatov as a step up from Tevez. we broke a record with Berbatov after winning the champions league so this makes no sense what so ever. Win the champions league and then break your transfer record, is what you are supposed to do. We had Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Berbatov which is the kind of firepower Barca and Real build. Always adding. From 2009 defeat is where it went pear shaped. As you pointed out:
2009 - sell ronaldo and let tevez go, signings, valencia, owen, obertan and diouff
2011 - signings, DDG, young and jones
I heard that Fergie bought Young to try and bridge the gap to Barcelona. How much truth in that I do no know.
God no was berbatov a step up, tevez was by far the more effective player, in terms of tactical formations tevez was better in a more flued counter attacking system, and for a pressing game he is brilliant. That I also disagree with, barcelona have suarez, Neymar and messi, adding some slow forward who only can play in a 2 would ruin barcelona's front 3 set up. For me fergie should have signed aguero at the time to replace tevez, if that is the route fergie wanted to go, not to mention sanchez and modric were both available that summer
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In hindsight Tevez was more effective for us but in signing Berbatov we were signing the closest to Cantona. You must've forgot his genius. He bagged 15 league goals and 11 assists and had remarkable touch and vision where as Tevez was just scrappy.
The second point was not literal. it was more on the lines that they had world class attackers, then bought Neymar, then bought Suarez as well so they always spent more money on attackers which is what we did and always should do. Never rest on your laurels.
Sanchez was playing for River Plate and had no impact on the football world at that time having scored 4 league goals. In fact he was on loan from Udinese to River so thats weird to suggest him in 2008. Modric was still at Zagreb and was still a risky unknown at the time that we just won the champions league. He also had an indifferent season that year at Spurs and you are suggesting we should have signed him straight from Zagreb? so let me get this straight, the champions of Europe should sign a young Chilean on loan from Udinese to River Plate and a tiny Croation centre midfielder who has never played outside of Croatia, as an improvement to the European Champions??? Ok.
Obviosuly Berbatov was the more forward thinking signing.
I don't we needed berbatov at the time, when his form for spurs was good, but not what we needed in the way the team was playing, and what many feared is exactly what happened slowed the team down, and his form that season surprised me how we did not sell him. Tevez I feel was the better striker, had better movement was bigger danger in the attacking third, and he was great at the pressing game. I do think while sanchez was young, he was getting some big reviews which I feel maybe 2009 we could have got him to replace ronaldo going forward, has fergie always loves potential so it would be passing the torch. I think our midfield needed improving, anderson while everyone loved him still was not convincing, and has time went on that proved to be the case. I think the 2008 team needed a CM, especially hargreaves was breaking down. Its all hindsight, but? summer 2009 there should have been big changes with certain players, and all we got was buying below the standard quality, and shopping for second hand players, the fact owen placed tevez was another worry, we just started filling positions with very average players
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Nothing wrong with having 4 quality strikers which we had in 1999 when we won the treble. Berbatov didn't work out but it was worth a go as it is hard to improve on the double winners. centre midfield was the area we most needed to fill but for some reason Sir Alex preferred to rinse every last drop out of Scholes and then Giggs rather than sign a talented young centre midfielder and to this day we still don't have a top class centre midfielder, so I agree with you there. I just don't think Modric was the obvious choice unless you rely on hindsight for your football views. Perhaps a cheeky bid for Pirlo as Milan finished 5th in 2008 and won nothing?