Rewarding mediocrity - Why do the Glazers do it?

Fluctuation0161

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Only if those players are actually high value assets.
I mean technically, they are high value, no? I'm purely looking at this from a cynical business/ Glazer perspective.
 

devilish

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Yeah.

We don't know to what extent the likes of Murtough and Bout are undermined by being ignored or overruled by Woodward and his mates. If that is happening, and I'm convinced that it is, and they are actually good at their jobs, then one would imagine that they'd get far greater job satisfaction by moving on to places where they wouldn't be ignored or overruled. It's all very odd, unless United pay so far in excess of market rates that they'd rather have the shekels than an enjoyable and fulfilling job.

The rapidly evolving role of Fletcher is indeed interesting. I take a more optimistic view than you though; however unsatisfacory the "process" that got him the job in the first place might have been, he's clearly trusted and listened to by Ralf. If Ralf wasn't happy with him, surely he'd ensure that he was moved to a Phelan-style backstage or ceremonial role. So maybe he's a capable guy after all, and is rated as such by an objective professional?
I fear that the guy who had 3 promotions in 6 months is more powerful than the interim manager whom we signed yesterday evening.
 

McGrathsipan

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With recent rumours of a contract extension for Rashford, Pogba circling the rounds despite the arrival of Rangnick - who was meant to put an end to the bloating of the squad filled with poor performers it does beg the question...

If the Glazers are meant to be penny pinching businessmen who care about their bottom line before everything, why on earth has a culture of rewarding failure been allowed to develop at United?

This is a club which ruthlessly got rid of Hughes, Ince, Kanchelskis in one summer... Stam, Ruud - and yes you can argue it is because Fergie is no longer here but all other elite football clubs seem to have that ability to get rid of players/managers when they don’t perform anymore but we offer new contracts to people who are clearly out of their depth - we even do it with Woodward himself and look at how long it takes us to sack managers.

Forget about tactics, this is the real root cause of all our evils. But I can’t fathom why... anyone who knows more about their modus operandi feel free to fill us in...
Does the commercial Rashford and Pogba earn more than they are paid ?
 

Revaulx

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I fear that the guy who had 3 promotions in 6 months is more powerful than the interim manager whom we signed yesterday evening.
This sounds most unlikely. Why Fletcher and not Phelan? Unless that bizarre "Technical Director" title means what it says. Which I doubt.
 

ManchesterManchester

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The simple answer, I feel, is that the Glazers don't care about what happens at Man Utd provided their dividends get paid.

I think, for the most part, they're not paying much attention to what happens at the club. It feels like they basically allow for an envelope in which spending can happen e.g., no investment in the stadium or Carrington for a decade, while the squad becomes bloated. Then they let the executive team get on with it with no questions asked unless the dividend payments are under threat or there's a significant impact on commercial revenue.

As other posters have said, these kids didn't buy the club their Dad did. It was their Dad who was the real businessman. They just inherited the stuff their Dad left behind. Its no surprise United is so badly run.

Honestly, I thought what we'd see from the Glazers was an attempt to squeeze squad costs over time. I thought they'd be keen to be as cheap as possible. But their approach has been far more disinterested. They don't seem to care how big the wage bill gets as long as the dividend gets paid. They're like 18th century landowners who couldn't give a cak how their estate manager is running the business, as long as the expected amount of rent turns up. Even if they could be earning more money with more careful stewardship.
This, this and this! It’s absolutely terrifying when you look at the situation, it’s very similar to pump and dump schemes and asset stripping. They haven’t made any moves to help the long term sustainability of the business, instead all moves point to extracting as much cash as possible, even at the expense of the business.

I used to get laughed at when I said Man Utd could get relegated. Nobody can say it’s impossible now. Things could get much much worst, we can only live off history for so long, the well could start drying and as you say they don’t care.

The debt repayments won’t stop coming but sponsorships and top 4 money might. The Glazers will not invest their own money to bail us out if the situation became seriously bad. They will continue to take money until the club is an empty carcus.

They are literally on the other side of the world and have already made their money back from Utd. Although I don’t think the Glazers know how to run a football club, I do not underestimate their ruthlessness and they certainly don’t care what people think of them.

They could destroy us and legally walk away with the money in the bank from the dividend and sold shares.
 

devilish

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This sounds most unlikely. Why Fletcher and not Phelan? Unless that bizarre "Technical Director" title means what it says. Which I doubt.
Phelan was shown the door when Moyes came at United. Years of service was forgotten for a man who joined us for few weeks. Fletcher had 3 promotions in 6 months. Its said to have been quite involved in us choosing Rangnick as well. I think that they cannot be compared
 

Banana Republic

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I fear that the guy who had 3 promotions in 6 months is more powerful than the interim manager whom we signed yesterday evening.
This sounds most unlikely. Why Fletcher and not Phelan? Unless that bizarre "Technical Director" title means what it says. Which I doubt.
My fear is that Fletcher is the new "chosen one".
The next manager.
One of our own, Utd through and through, well liked and remembered.
The punters errr... the fans, will lap it up, Ed and Co. must think.

I hope that's just as daft as it sounds.

.
 

Revaulx

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Phelan was shown the door when Moyes came at United. Years of service was forgotten for a man who joined us for few weeks. Fletcher had 3 promotions in 6 months. Its said to have been quite involved in us choosing Rangnick as well. I think that they cannot be compared
I was thinking of Phelan as he is now, not when Moyes idiotically got rid of him.

So if the unqualified Fletcher, who was only employed for sentimental reasons, was instrumental in choosing Ralf, does that automatically mean Ralf is rubbish as well?
 

Revaulx

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My fear is that Fletcher is the new "chosen one".
The next manager.
One of our own, Utd through and through, well liked and remembered.
The punters errr... the fans, will lap it up, Ed and Co. must think.

I hope that's just as daft as it sounds.

.
I hope so also. Except that poor old Fletch used to get dogs abuse from the fans, not least on here…
 

Adnan

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Lots to agree with here, but I don’t think it’s quite that simple.

SAF was a brilliant one-man band, and on his retirement didn’t bequeath the club with much in the way of a backroom organisation (scouting etc.). I don’t blame him for this AT ALL; what mattered is that what he had worked for him. The club’s upper management was clearly utterly oblivious to any of this; both Moyes and LvG were appalled by the lack of footballing structure and to the credit of both made their views clear to the club.

The club didn’t merely respond by sitting on their hands though. They recruited the highly regarded (not by @devilish ;)) John Murtough and later (in LvG’s time) beefed up the scouting with Marcel Bout and others.

So it isn’t as if the club hasn’t recognised the need to have qualified and experienced people in place. Why then have our signings been so poor? Have the football people have been overruled by Ed? It looks to me as though they have been.
The scouting network was beefed up and completed in 2017, from what's been reported.

And also it should be noted that Solskjaer had his own personal scout, Simon Wells, who directly reported to him according to The Athletic. That particular scout wasn't under the jurisdiction of the club's recruitment department, and was imo, the scout on who Ole pushed ahead with the signings he made.
 

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If Ralf is given reign to shake things up I do think we can get better people (coaches, managers and scouting) in the future. As long as the positions exist in the club we can always upgrade. Having the structure is a start. Everything is slow and tedious and wasteful with the Glazers so everything may take ages to come together but at least there’s some progress. As I said above I think the main problem is too many variables in our leadership which majorly slows us down. Glazer kids who probably all have equal say or as good as - the board - dof - ceo - shareholders and stock market recruitment dept - manager - players. All of these inform our decision making and it’s super inefficient. The fact whether we aren’t sure if the glazers even want to win or not says it all.

ideally the glazers and board give a sizeable budget each year and step aside and leave the DOF ceo, recruitment dept and manager at it. Let all sales and savings on wages be reinvested back into the team. Let the DOF and head of youth development sell/loan/sign up the youngsters and start loaning and selling some more before they get put on big money and create an additional revenue stream for the first team that way.

The sky is limit if we simplify and the owners hire the best and get out of their way
 

Revaulx

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The scouting network was beefed up and completed in 2017, from what's been reported.

And also it should be noted that Solskjaer had his own personal scout, Simon Wells, who directly reported to him according to The Athletic. That particular scout wasn't under the jurisdiction of the club's recruitment department, and was imo, the scout on who Ole pushed ahead with the signings he made.
So we assemble a supposedly world class scouting system, then actually empower the manager to bypass it :eek:

Welcome to Ed Woodward’s Manchester United
 

Adnan

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So we assemble a supposedly world class scouting system, then actually empower the manager to bypass it :eek:

Welcome to Ed Woodward’s Manchester United
The problem has always been that we've given control to the managers, which can work (as shown under Fergie) but is a way of doing things that relies on a man to head the football department, when his own position at the club has a short shelf life.

Now from what's being reported, Richard Arnold will give autonomy to the football department, which is what should've happened several years ago rather than give control to the Managers post Fergie, who bought players for their way of playing the game, which has caused many issues.
 

Revaulx

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The problem has always been that we've given control to the managers, which can work (as shown under Fergie) but is a way of doing things that relies on a man to head the football department, when his own position at the club has a short shelf life.

Now from what's being reported, Richard Arnold will give autonomy to the football department, which is what should've happened several years ago rather than give control to the Managers post Fergie, who bought players for their way of playing the game, which has caused many issues.
I dare say you’re right. The taking on of Murtough and beefing up of the scouting department was a nod in the direction of acknowledging that things needed to change though. All pointless if in other ways you’re just going to carry on like you’ve always done.
 

Tarrou

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since the Bosnan ruling players have a lot of power

it’s created situations like us with Pogba where he’s underperformed but his market value for wages has increased because he’s run down his contract

United being weak on the pitch has meant we’re more exposed compared to successful teams because players want to renew

also, we’re run poorly
 

Adnan

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I dare say you’re right. The taking on of Murtough and beefing up of the scouting department was a nod in the direction of acknowledging that things needed to change though. All pointless if in other ways you’re just going to carry on like you’ve always done.
Moyes comes in and was allowed to implement his blue print and bring his players in.

Van Gaal came in and was allowed to implement his blue print, and he even signed a player (Rojo) because that player impressed him and his analysts in the World Cup semi-final, in his own words.

Mourinho again was allowed to implement his blue print and sign the players he wanted. And according to Jason Burt of the Daily Telegraph, Mourinho was using his own independent scouts to sign players. And he eventually threw his dummy out of the pram, after people like Bout, Court and Lawlor were put into positions to challenge his decisions in the transfer market. Mourinho signed two CBs for a combined £70m, and still wanted a 3rd, which is poor planning and the club were correct in not backing him imo.

Solskjaer then came in, whilst the plan was to appoint Pochettino. But Solskjaer ends up getting the job and and goes on to say he wants to play high pressing football, similar to Jurgen at Liverpool. But he then goes on to sign players who are unsuited to playing that type of football in AWB and Maguire, which I even mentioned/questioned over 2 years ago. And subsequently we've discovered that he had his own personal scout in Simon Wells, who he trusted above all else.

So the club built up a very impressive scouting network according to the guys at Training ground guru, but that scouting network wasn't relied on by the managers. But they chose to use their own independent scouts (Mourinho), and in Solskjaer case his own personal scout in Simon Wells.

The board are to blame for this and deserve criticism for allowing the above to happen. The modern game imo demands that clubs should have people at the club who set the footballing blue print and make recruitment decisions independently from the coaching staff. A head coach should be appointed to implement the blue print while working under the club's football department, who should set the mid to long-term goals.
 

devilish

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I was thinking of Phelan as he is now, not when Moyes idiotically got rid of him.

So if the unqualified Fletcher, who was only employed for sentimental reasons, was instrumental in choosing Ralf, does that automatically mean Ralf is rubbish as well?
Well Phelan hasn't been fired hasn't he? He's just a first team coach whose not on the training pitch, a role he had (according to Rangnick) during Ole's time as well.

Regarding your second comment, I believe that Rangnick's appointment as sporting director would have made sense. After all he had very positive experiences as DOF/Sporting director at Red Bull Salzburg and RB Leipzig. However I do question his role as interim manager.

A- Gegenpressing is very demanding. It requires a complete change in mentality, tempo and fitness regime to that imposed by Ole. Klopp had such issues with Liverpool and his squad wasn't half as lazy as our.s Implementing that during mid season and during a pandemic is crazy especially with a squad who doesn't seem like running very much

B- Rangnick has no experience managing a top club and dealing with huge egos is something he quite frankly hates. He said that he's more comfortable working with players on their 1-2 contract

What I am seeing is the same mistakes made all over again

A- A huge and unbalanced side which is filled with overrated players with the wrong attitude and on huge salaries
B- We overspent on the transfer market AGAIN (Maguire, AWB etc)
C- We chose a manager whose the polar opposite of his predecessor who will force us into another rebuild

Which comes to no surprise considering that most people involved are either inexperienced (ex Fletcher) or had been involved in this mess from day 1 (Woodward, Arnold, Murtough etc) or maximum day 2 (ex Bout)
 
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Adnan

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Fletcher rejoined the club in October 2020, to coach the u16s, he had feck all to do with 'the mess'. To blame him for anything in the current first team just shows the agenda some have against him.

Murtough built up the mechanisms and structure at the club, which has created roles for around 80 to 100 people to work in the recruitment department. And he was working with the youngsters at the club before he was promoted as the head of football or whatever you want to call the role. There's no evidence of him being a influential figure when it comes to recruitment at first team level. There is evidence of him being very influential when it comes to recruiting youth players with the aid of the scouts he created positions for. He basically brought 4 of Man City's best youth recruiters to the club in Stephen Ajewole, David Harrison (head of youth recruitment), Lyndon Tomlinson and Ronnie Cusick, who City weren't best pleased losing according to reports. Kieran McKenna who was considered one of the best young coaches in the country was brought to the club by Murtough. He had control at youth level to make decisions, and he hasn't had that sort of control at first team level until now and his first big decision at first team level has been to appoint Ralf Rangnick as interim, and there's countless reputable reports to back that up.

Lawlor and Court have been working at the club in recruitment since the days we were winning league titles and European Cups. I guess they also became part of 'this mess'

The issue here is that the club's recruitment department hasn't had total autonomy when it comes to making football decisions post Fergie. Mourinho had his own scouts according to The Telegraph, and Solskjaer trusted the judgment of Simon Wells when it comes to recruitment, and that can be verified by a simple Google search.
 
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Revaulx

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Fletcher rejoined the club in October 2020, to coach the u16s, he had feck all to do with 'the mess'. To blame him for anything in the current first team just shows the agenda some have against him.
Yeah. I can understand people finding it a bit weird that he went from U16 coach to “Technical Director” in about five minutes, but beyond that any criticism of him seems absurd.
Murtough built up the mechanisms and structure at the club, which has created roles for around 80 to 100 people to work in the recruitment department. And he was working with the youngsters at the club before he was promoted as the head of football or whatever you want to call the role. There's no evidence of him being a influential figure when it comes to recruitment at first team level. There is evidence of him being very influential when it comes to recruiting youth players with the aid of the scouts he created positions for. He basically brought 4 of Man City's best youth recruiters to the club in Stephen Ajewole, David Harrison (head of youth recruitment), Lyndon Tomlinson and Ronnie Cusick, who City weren't best pleased losing according to reports. Kieran McKenna who was considered one of the best young coaches in the country was brought to the club by Murtough. He had control at youth level to make decisions, and he hasn't had that sort of control at first team level until now and his first big decision at first team has been to appoint Ralf Rangnick as interim, and there's countless reputable reports to back that up.
All fair enough. It’s a shame that we spent years building a structure and have only just started making proper use of it though. That’s got to be down to Ed letting multiple managers do their own thing.
Lawlor and Court have been working at the club in recruitment since the days we were winning league titles and European Cups. I guess they also became part of 'this mess'
Well our recruitment has hardly been stellar in that time. Maybe they’ve all been bypassed by Ed and/or the manager again doing their own thing?
The issue here is that the club's recruitment department hasn't had total autonomy when it comes to making football decisions post Fergie. Mourinho had his own scouts according to The Telegraph, and Solskjaer trusted the judgment of Simon Wells when it comes to recruitment, and that can be verified by a simple Google search.
Fair enough also. The only thing I find rather concerning is that all these good professionals have been forced to watch on the sidelines while the club’s real powers (Ed and the manager) have gone out on their own and make bad decision after bad decision. If they had any professional pride one wouldn’t blame them if they had moved elsewhere.
 

kouroux

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But if it is at the expense of your business being maximised and ultimately becoming even more profitable - why do it?

Fair enough if you tried that approach in the beginning but if it is not working you surely have to adapt? Furthermore we seem to be losing a lot of transfer value on assets by holding on to them long after their resale value has gone.
That's the thing, they do everything with that money angle so it must be financially more advantageous for them to do that even if it means the football side of things deteriorates severely. The owners are a lot of things but they're not crazy, they follow their own precise agenda
 

Adnan

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Yeah. I can understand people finding it a bit weird that he went from U16 coach to “Technical Director” in about five minutes, but beyond that any criticism of him seems absurd.

All fair enough. It’s a shame that we spent years building a structure and have only just started making proper use of it though. That’s got to be down to Ed letting multiple managers do their own thing.

Well our recruitment has hardly been stellar in that time. Maybe they’ve all been bypassed by Ed and/or the manager again doing their own thing?

Fair enough also. The only thing I find rather concerning is that all these good professionals have been forced to watch on the sidelines while the club’s real powers (Ed and the manager) have gone out on their own and make bad decision after bad decision. If they had any professional pride one wouldn’t blame them if they had moved elsewhere.
I wouldn't say our recruitment department were sidelined, but they were rather pretty active when it comes to recruitment at youth level. But when it came to recruitment at first team level, the managers post Fergie set the directive as far as the short, mid, long- term strategy goes. And the managers post Fergie made decisions independently from the club scouts like Lawlor, Langley and Court who were there under Fergie. It wasn't until 2018, that things changed with the newly formed structure and Mourinho's independent scouts being questioned on their poor recruitment per Jason Burt of the Daily Telegraph. Solskjaer was then given the reigns, when the plan was to bring in Pochettino and he went on record and said he had the final say on all signings and he also had his own personal scout, Simon Wells, who he trusted above all else. So whether the recruitment department scouted 900 fullbacks or 9000 fullbacks, the final decision on who was gonna be bought for the RB role was gonna be Solskjaer's and his trusted scout Simon Wells.

The difference between how Fergie ran the football department to how its run now, is that under Fergie, he had all the recruitment staff answering to him, whilst post Fergie we've had managers making recruitment decisions independently from the club's recruitment department, which is a very dangerous game when the person (manager) statistically has a short shelf life in the role he occupies, as we've seen over the years.

Stability and continuity is what is required to build strong foundations and plan for the short, mid, long-term. And the person heading the strategy should be someone from within the recruitment department and he should make decisions independently from the head coach, with input from a team of football people working under him who will provide the data/scout reports for him to act upon. Michael Edwards at Liverpool had the same issues with Brendan Rodgers, who was heading the football department, and had his own scout he trusted above Edwards and the Liverpool recruitment staff, when it came to signing players.
 
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SirSean

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"Manchester City overtook Manchester United for revenue for the first time in their history last season. City recorded a total operating revenue of €644M, while United totaled a mere €557M in revenue." - The Athletic.

City passing by United for the first time in terms of operating revenue. Well well, seems like Social Media ain't gonna save this club for too long after all - who would've thought.
They (Glazers) have run this club to the ground and will sell it for profit no matter what - disgusting dog shit.
 

wolvored

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Are the Glazers particularly clever and/or ruthless businessmen (and a woman)?

Their dad was, we know that. But what have his offspring actually done beyond inheriting a shitload of money (and Manchester United)?
This . They didn't purchase Utd and according to form Bucs aside the rest of their businesses they inherited from their dad are struggling. It was reported 3 out of the 6 wanted to sell Utd not so long ago as well. Woodward has probably 'learned them the ropes' in running Utd that's why we're in this mess.
 

SirSean

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But if it is at the expense of your business being maximised and ultimately becoming even more profitable - why do it?

Fair enough if you tried that approach in the beginning but if it is not working you surely have to adapt? Furthermore we seem to be losing a lot of transfer value on assets by holding on to them long after their resale value has gone.
The Glazers bought the club with a loan - not out of their own pocket. That loan has been paid off by revenue/profit from the club since 2005. Despite United being a fallen giant now - and yes, we are the new Liverpool, they'll still make a sizeable profit either way. They have not had to take any money out of their own pocket. They've basically been earning money all these years, so it makes sense not to strain the profits from the club too much, in relation to the strategy of renewing contracts rather than buying replacements.
 

Revaulx

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I wouldn't say our recruitment department were sidelined, but they were rather pretty active when it comes to recruitment at youth level. But when it came to recruitment at first team level, the managers post Fergie set the directive as far as the short, mid, long- term strategy goes. And the managers post Fergie made decisions independently from the club scouts like Lawlor, Langley and Court who were there under Fergie. It wasn't until 2018, that things changed with the newly formed structure and Mourinho's independent scouts being questioned on their poor recruitment per Jason Burt of the Daily Telegraph. Solskjaer was then given the reigns, when the plan was to bring in Pochettino and he went on record and said he had the final say on all signings and he also had his own personal scout, Simon Wells, who he trusted above all else. So whether the recruitment department scouted 900 fullbacks or 9000 fullbacks, the final decision on who was gonna be bought for the RB role was gonna be Solskjaer's and his trusted scout Simon Wells.

The difference between how Fergie ran the football department to how its run now, is that under Fergie, he had all the recruitment staff answering to him, whilst post Fergie we've had managers making recruitment decisions independently from the club's recruitment department, which is a very dangerous game when the person (manager) statistically has a short shelf life in the role he occupies, as we've seen over the years.

Stability and continuity is what is required to build strong foundations and plan for the short, mid, long-term. And the person heading the strategy should be someone from within the recruitment department and he should make decisions independently from the head coach, with input from a team of football people working under him who will provide the data/scout reports for him to act upon. Michael Edwards at Liverpool had the same issues with Brendan Rodgers, who was heading the football department, and had his own scout he trusted above Edwards and the Liverpool recruitment staff, when it came to signing players.
Oh I agree completely, but struggle with the bolded bit. If I’d spent months researching right backs and written a paper setting out a range of the best options, only for the club to sign someone completely different and obviously not good enough on the say-so of the manager’s mate, I think I’d look for another job!
 

Adnan

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Oh I agree completely, but struggle with the bolded bit. If I’d spent months researching right backs and written a paper setting out a range of the best options, only for the club to sign someone completely different and obviously not good enough on the say-so of the manager’s mate, I think I’d look for another job!
The scout is the foot soldier on the ground and his job is to provide detailed reports on specific players. It’s upto to the people heading the football department to act upon those reports, and in our case the football department was run by the managers who had their own own scouts from what's been reported.

A number of scouts have left like Ronnie Cusick, Mark Anderson and Mathieu Seckinger for different reasons.
 

Revaulx

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The scout is the foot soldier on the ground and his job is to provide detailed reports on specific players. It’s upto to the people heading the football department to act upon those reports, and in our case the football department was run by the managers who had their own own scouts from what's been reported.

A number of scouts have left like Ronnie Cusick, Mark Anderson and Mathieu Seckinger for different reasons.
Can’t say I blame them!

Let’s hope that things have really changed now. I fear though that while Ed Woodward still has any influence it will be very difficult to sustain the necessary change.
 

stoinz

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This is by far our biggest failure as a club. We are not rewarding anyone. We tied players up with stupid contracts to protect value and struggled to move players cos of the said contract. I don't follow other clubs that much but it seems clubs like Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool have no issues buying and selling players. Hopefully with Woodward out, this will improve.
 

Lee565

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This is more in ole surely, he was the one convincing or hoarding players like tuanzebe, Henderson, beek, Pereira lingard to stay with the club and then proceeded to let them rot on the bench when we could have easily offloaded all of them for a good fee at one stage after good loan spells (beek the exception).

We saw the club happy to sell off players when van gaal was here with resistance.