Road Trip Draft 2: SF. 2mufc0 vs GSTQ

[harms]

Team 2mufc0/Theon --------------------------------- Team GSTQ ---------------------------​

Team 2mufc0/Theon

Tactically we have built the team around Lionel Messi inspired by his most devastating iteration as the the false #9 in a 4-3-3 formation. The system has been heavily inspired by Pep's dominant Barcelona team to get the best out of our talisman. Averaging a goal every game and winning four Ballon d'Ors in a row, Messi is arguably the most devastating club footballer of all time during this period. With a possession based set-up Messi will be granted full freedom to drop deep towards midfield where he can pick up the ball, create space for others and utilise his dribbling/passing ability to slice open the opposition back line. When approaching the goal Messi will be both creator and finisher, equally comfortable slipping in the inside forwards with a through ball as skipping through challenges to finish himself.

In another ode to Pep's Barcelona set up, we have partnered Messi with two goal-scoring inside forwards who have the pace, dribbling and goal-scoring instinct to penetrate the opposition with diagonal runs from either flank - very much in the Sanchez, Pedro, David Villa or Barca-version Henry mould (though significantly upgraded). On the left we have a peak Thierry Henry, quite possibly the GOAT pick as a left-inside forward who scored 166 goals in 242 games at Arsenal (five consecutive 30+ goal seasons, and a staggering five year average of 3 goals every 4 games in the Premier League) who we know fits into the Barcelona philosophy and team ethic - the thought of a peak '02-'05 Henry linking up with Messi is mouth-watering and the sheer pace of the attack should be devastating. On the right we have a multiple-Ballon d'Or winner in Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, who like Henry offers real goalthreat from the flanks with 217 goals in 422 appearances for Bayern. His intelligent runs, creativity and goal scoring ability will be the perfect foil on the right hand side and his work rate also fits the Barcelona philosophy to a tee. Both of the wide men are technically brilliant footballers who are comfortable with intricate play in the final third and able to expose the space created by Messi with their movement.

In the middle of the park we have opted for a trio who are comfortable on the ball and capable of both maintaining possession and penetrating more directly. In the hybrid-attacking #8/#10 role Iniesta can again link up with Messi to re-create one of the most proven and dominant combinations in domestic football. Sitting slightly deeper in midfield is Paul Scholes (in his '06-'09 playmaker iteration) who has the technical ability to keep the ball and set up attacks with his devastating passing range (his cross-field passes to Kalle and Henry should work wonders here). With his striking ability Scholes also has a knack of getting a few goals himself and in a fluid possession team he will find himself in these forward positions. Acting as the holding midfielder we have the Brazilian Cerezo, a member of the legendary Brazil '82 international side who should slot seamlessly into the technical set up we have implemented. At over 6ft with an excellent engine, Cerezo is capable of dictating play from deeper positions whist also being defensively sound and providing protection for the defence - at his best he was the highest rated footballer in Brazil ahead of Falcao and Zico which is testament to his quality.

In defence we have significantly upgraded the weakest area of Pep's Barcelona whilst maintaining the possession-orientated style of the Barca back-line. In the centre of the defence Alessandro Nesta is virtually unsurpassed as a pure defender and unanimously regarded as the greatest since Baresi - whilst GSTQ has a fantastic attack we feel that Nesta has the defensive positioning, physicality and reading of the game to limit the front line more than the opposition can its counterpart. In order to transition the team closer to the Barcelona theme (and respond to a few criticisms regarding defensive ball-playing from previous rounds) we have upgraded his defensive partner to Ronald Koeman - pretty much the prototype Pep / Barcelona centre back and arguably the most devastating passer from that position in history. Koeman is a two time Dutch footballer of the year and Euro '88 winner who provides genuine defensive solidity (going on to act as a one-man back-line at times in an unorthodox 3-4-3 later on his career), but more importantly acts as a huge upgrade to Pique (both on and off the ball) whilst retaining the same possession-orientated style which provides the foundation of the Barcelona approach.

The left back position is significantly upgraded with one of the all-time GOATs Giacinto Facchetti providing defensive solidity and unrivalled attacking threat down the wing - we all know how Messi loves the switch of play to the Alba on the left who has proved devastating for Barcelona and should be equally effective here (if not more so). The right back position has been greatly improved by bringing in Cafu, who in Peps system would be a big upgrade defensively on Alves whilst not compromising on the attacking output. He was also brilliant in his early days in Brazil (Sao Paulo, '89-'95) where he won the Copa Libertadores back to back ('92 & '93), was the South American footballer of the year in '94 and selected in the South American Team of the Year in '92, '93, '94 and '95. In goal is Jose Chilavert a goal keeper that was great on the ball and carried a goal threat on top of his superb goal keeping skills. During his time in Argentina he won both the Argentinian and South American footballer of the year in 1996.

Team GSTQ

Style of play : The team is heavily inspired by the Total Football system developed by Rinus Michels, popularized by Johan Cruyff and modernized by Pep Guardiola

Tactics in possession : Its very easy to see the tactics borrowed from the Ajax/Dutch team of the 70's and the Manchester City team of Guardiola

Tactics without possession : All 10 outfield players are well known to work off the ball with tremendous stamina and workrate. All of them will be involved in robbing the ball off the opposition as fast as possible.

Good luck @2mufc0 @Theon @GodShaveTheQueen

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good luck @2mufc0 @Theon @GodShaveTheQueen

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Ronald Koeman in a tiki-taka setup - Genius or Blunder?

First instincts

It has to be genius. Its a possession based setup with probably the best CB of all time on the ball. That looks like a match made in heaven. What can go wrong?
Lets look at both the offensive and defensive facets of the role.

Attacking contribution

There is no denying his skills on the ball. But lets look at a few of his key strengths.

1. Long range passing
2. Dribbling ahead and joining attacks like a playmaker/No.10
3. Shooting from distance with power

Long range passing - Tiki taka is not about getting the ball up front as soon as possible. Its a setup designed to hold on to the ball as much as possible, rotate it around, look for openings and slowly pull the killer move. Its a setup that requires a lot of patience.

Dribbling ahead and joining attacks - In tiki taka, the CB's have to be very good on the ball. But what is the reasoning behind that. The reason is that the CB's are as responsible as anyone else in making sure possession is not lost. They are more often than not the safe routes back for the midfielders in order to not lose possession. Their job is not to dribble ahead and overload the midfield or attack. The organization and shape of the team are as important as anything else.

Shooting from distance with power - Again, its a patient setup that believes in finding the killer pass at the right time rather than losing possession with long range passes or hopeful long shots.

A lot of the very key attacking strengths in Koeman's game don't really suit the setup.

Defensive contribution

High line - Now the very first thing to remember defensively about a tiki taka setup is that it has a very high line. Its a high risk - high reward system.

So when the ball is lost, the centrebacks need to be fast enough to stop any quick counters. Good recovery pace in the defensive phase is as important a requirement as good passing in the offensive phase. Koeman as everyone would know was among the slowest CB's of all time. On the counters, he will almost always be a liability.

Now one might argue that he has Nesta to cover for him. But in a quality match like this with star studded attacks, one pacy CB is never enough and too risky. If Nesta leaves the space to cover for Koeman, other attackers from my team will run there with an easy one on one through to the goalkeeper in the making. You can't give free space to the likes of Cruyff, Gullit, Muller etc.

It's also important that the CB can cover outside if the fullback is caught upfield. Again, it's a high risk high reward system with fullbacks expected to be very expansive. So even if you have Cafu/Facchetti, there is a good chance that they will be caught upfield frequently. Koeman is the probably the last man I'd want to cover for a fullback. Imagine Cruyff running at Koeman from the wings on the counter.

 

[Jim Beam]

That team from GSTQ turned into an absolute sex after reinforcements.

 

[2mufc0]

Good luck @GodShaveTheQueen

We are not replicating tiki taka but inspired by Pep's overall possession philosophy.

It seems the standard thing to bash Koeman for his pace in these drafts, it's like he never faced any fast players winning all those trophies. And to be fair Muller isn't a lightning fast forward either. If Koeman isn't rated in this setup I don't know in what system he would. Furthermore he has Nesta and Facchetti covering him as he pushes up, not many better players to do this.

I think the bigger weakness is Gerets trying to contain a red hot Henry, expect that battle to be very messy for Eric.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

And to be fair Muller isn't a lightning fast forward either

His teammate Franz Beckenbauer has emphasized Müller's unusual speed: "His pace was incredible. In training I have played against him and I never had a chance."

 

[2mufc0]

His teammate Franz Beckenbauer has emphasized Müller's unusual speed: "His pace was incredible. In training I have played against him and I never had a chance."

Yes he had good pace, but not electric like a Henry or Robben.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think the bigger weakness is Gerets trying to contain a red hot Henry, expect that battle to be very messy for Eric.

Gerets' strongest suits for his speed and marking. That is exactly what you need against Henry. Great speed to keep up with him and mark him on his runs.

And then he has Kohler covering for him who is as good a pure CB as it gets to covering out wide.

I think we'll be okay on that side. All this without even including the below two points

1. Figo and Gullit have great workrate on that side as well.
2. Henry's peak at Arsenal was not as a left forward like it was at Barcelona. Sure, he is definitely functional, but that is not where his peak at Arsenal in England was. In the spirit of the draft, it's not peak Henry IMO.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

If Koeman isn't rated in this setup I don't know in what system he would

On Koeman, I didn't expect you to agree obviously. Let's see what the neutrals have to say.

Yes he had good pace, but not electric like a Henry or Robben.

I don't know how to differentiate 'incredible pace' from 'electric pace' to be honest.

And might I add, less faster players than Henry and Robben have left a slow Koeman in lots of trouble.

 

[Gio]

What a game.

 

[2mufc0]

2. Henry's peak at Arsenal was not as a left forward like it was at Barcelona. Sure, he is definitely functional, but that is not where his peak at Arsenal in England was. In the spirit of the draft, it's not peak Henry IMO.

Disagree with that, he always played with a striker often picking the ball up out wide left and deeper positions, running at the opposition. Almost all of his goals here are him starting from the left inside position :


And with a fluid system like this he will often interchange with Messi and find himself in central positions too.

 

[2mufc0]

On Koeman, I didn't expect you to agree obviously. Let's see what the neutrals have to say.



I don't know how to differentiate 'incredible pace' from 'electric pace' to be honest.

And might I add, less faster players than Henry and Robben have left a slow Koeman in lots of trouble.

I know you like to use pes stats, and he's given a 81 there, which I think is fair. The fastest players are rated in the 90s. I'm not saying he's a slow player BTW.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

We are not replicating tiki taka but inspired by Pep's overall possession philosophy.

Coming back to this, you can't partially pick up Pep's Barcelona philosophy and then for safety say it's not tiki taka.

If it's not tiki taka, the whole setup falls apart in midfield.

1. The front 3 are not helping defensively.
2. Cerezo wouldn't have sufficient help from Iniesta and Scholes to contain the centre heavy attack.

The whole point of the setup and structure is to defend and attack using tiki taka. It can't be partial. Unless of course you have players with more defensive prowess to support Cerezo.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Disagree with that, he always played with a striker often picking the ball up out wide left and deeper positions, running at the opposition. Almost all of his goals here are him starting from the left inside position :


And with a fluid system like this he will often interchange with Messi and find himself in central positions too.

Which is why I said he is pretty functional.

I don't think it's peak Henry though. It's one thing to drift leftwards often like he did at Arsenal and another to start leftwards all the time like he did at Barcelona

 

[2mufc0]

Coming back to this, you can't partially pick up Pep's Barcelona philosophy and then for safety say it's not tiki taka.

If it's not tiki taka, the whole setup falls apart in midfield.

1. The front 3 are not helping defensively.
2. Cerezo wouldn't have sufficient help from Iniesta and Scholes to contain the centre heavy attack.

The whole point of the setup and structure is to defend and attack using tiki taka. It can't be partial. Unless of course you have players with more defensive prowess to support Cerezo.

The only one saying its tiki taka is you, we haven't mentioned it once in our tactics

Btw would you call Pep's Bayern and City tiki taka? Or even his first year at Barca?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The only one saying its tiki taka is you, we haven't mentioned it once in our tactics

Btw would you call Pep's Bayern and City tiki taka? Or even his first year at Barca?

Pep's Bayern had Schweinsteiger/Alonso/Lahm/Martinez/Vidal in midfield. That is way more shielded than what your team has here.

City don't play tiki taka. And they have been ripped multiple times in big European games. Silva and De Bruyne are not Gullit and Charlton defensively after all.

 

[2mufc0]

Which is why I said he is pretty functional.

I don't think it's peak Henry though. It's one thing to drift leftwards often like he did at Arsenal and another to start leftwards all the time like he did at Barcelona

It's more than functional, like I said he will exchange in such a fluid system. If you want to nitpick like that, Cruyff didn't play lw for Ajax, neither did he play with a striker like Muller there.

Also Bastian wasn't the holder in his peak treble Bayern season, same with Sir Bobby and Gullit too weren't central midfielders at their peaks. So depends on how you want to view the draft.

 

[2mufc0]

I'm off now @GodShaveTheQueen, @Theon will take over.

 

[Physiocrat]

@2mufc0 How high of a defensive line are you playing? Are Henry and Kalle suitable for high pressing after losing the ball? This is a hard question to answer but what percentage of possession are you broadly aiming for?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

If you want to nitpick like that Cruyff didn't play lw for Ajax, neither did he play with a striker like Muller there

Cruyff played everywhere for Ajax in every game. His placement on any team sheet is just for the purpose of graphics.

You could place him in the right wing if you want. It wouldn't matter.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'm off now @GodShaveTheQueen, @Theon will take over.

Congratulations. We have gotten through the first couple of hours in a civil manner

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

It's more than functional, like I said he will exchange in such a fluid system. If you want to nitpick like that, Cruyff didn't play lw for Ajax, neither did he play with a striker like Muller there.

Also Bastian wasn't the holder in his peak treble Bayern season, same with Sir Bobby and Gullit too weren't central midfielders at their peaks. So depends on how you want to view the draft.

Bastian had so many peaks at so many positions at Bayern in so many different seasons.

And Charlton and Gullit played the exact same way in their central roles for their clubs. It's wrong to simply call them central midfielders. It's like calling Silva and De Bruyne central Midfielders. They have so much offensive and defensive juice to offer, I don't think either of them is upgradable in this setup.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Schweini has way too much to handle. Bobby and Gullit have a good workrate, but the team does need more defensive presence they they offer. That front 5 would have made a nice WM.

 

[Theon]

Good luck mate.

Conscious not to double post here so @2mufc0 will lead this and I won't be available much anyway - wanted to respond to the initial points below you made on Henry whilst I'm online.

Gerets' strongest suits for his speed and marking. That is exactly what you need against Henry. Great speed to keep up with him and mark him on his runs.

Gerets was fine as a defender but against a GOAT attack in Facchetti / Henry it looks like the clearest route to goal on the park - as an offensive partnership they would tie any rightback in knots given the athleticism, technical quality and tactical fit (diagonal runs infield complimented by powerful overlapping runs on the outside). On Henry specifically though I disagree that Gerets has the "pace to keep up with him and mark his runs" - that seems firstly optimistic as I've seen nothing to suggest Gerets was a quick or agile as Henry in full-flow, and secondly I think you're underestimating the ability of peak Henry 1 vs 1 who would regularly beat defenders for fun so its quite a flippant strategy anyway. It's unfortunately not enough to say 'we have a fairly quick right back so that's Henry sorted'.

2. Henry's peak at Arsenal was not as a left forward like it was at Barcelona. Sure, he is definitely functional, but that is not where his peak at Arsenal in England was. In the spirit of the draft, it's not peak Henry IMO.

You can't be serious with this given Henry quite clearly fits this role like a glove - inside forward from the left sided position is literally tailor made for Henry and aligns to his skill set throughout his career, whether that's when starting out as a more-orthodox left winger, when he moved to a forward who drifts left in a 4-4-2 and finally when he playing as a inside forward at Barcelona. Anyone familiar with Henry knows he suits that role so its nit-picking of the highest order imo.

And on another note seems a bit strange you're critiquing Henry (in a role he suits to a tee and played in) when you've shifted Cruyff to the left wing (not his peak role - granted he'll float around but starting from the left and moving infield is not the same as being the team's designated central player, which is compounded by congesting the space centrally with Gullit and Charlton) and then you have Gullit and Charlton playing central midfield roles (with significant defensive responsibility vs a proper midfield three) when both were primarily offensive players who would more naturally play as #10's in a modern set up - I don't think any of those three are more suited to their role than Henry is so the 'spirit of the draft' comment seems a bit much!

On Charlton / Gullit they both definitely have the work-rate to contribute in a midfield position but it's still a very unbalanced set up imo against a central threat of Messi, Iniesta and Scholes. Work-rate is just one aspect of contributing defensively (and not even close to being the most important) and what you really need outside of even an actual defensive skillset (tackling, marking, reading of the game) is a defensive mentality which offensive players don't have - literally just the mindset to hold position and take up a defensive role in the team. They're both going to want to push forward to score goals or impact the game offensively and that's just not a feasible approach when it leaves Bastian alone vs a stacked attack imo.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm pretty sure Bastian played as a DM from at least 2010 when he was at his physical peak. So I think he has the physicality required to be a DM here and Charlton and Gullit are excellent complements. Somewhat unorthodox but great synergy. Charlton as the playmaker, Gullit attacking 8, Bastian DM.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Schweini has way too much to handle. Bobby and Gullit have a good workrate, but the team does need more defensive presence they they offer.

Schweini has too much to handle but Cerezo is okay? Bobby and Gullit offer more workrate than Scholes and Iniesta. That is an odd comment.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Conscious not to double post here

I'll respond to one of you throughout the game mate as am on phone mostly and can't post loads. But feel free to post your views and interact with neutrals. Cheers.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Schweini has too much to handle but Cerezo is okay? Bobby and Gullit offer more workrate than Scholes and Iniesta. That is an odd comment.

That great Ajax side had Neeskens and van hanegem who'll start deep and drive the ball forward. For me, Charlton and Gullit are those who'll start ahead and drop back as needed. It's a crucial difference for me as neither of them have the defensive contribution of the original duo. I don't see them as a misfit here, but I doubt we'd get their peak version.

The iteration of Scholes he used will start deep and move up. I see Scholes sitting deeper and Iniesta operating ahead. Plus for a possession game, they'll recycle the ball enough.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack the thread to my views. Will watch and change my vote, if necessary.

 

[Theon]

Schweini has too much to handle but Cerezo is okay? Bobby and Gullit offer more workrate than Scholes and Iniesta. That is an odd comment.

See above.

Literally is the most reductive argument to say "Gullit has a better work-rate than Scholes so he's better defensively as a central midfielder".

Scholes played his entire career as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2 system, often against three man midfield's where he was defensively outnumbered. He's clearly capable defensively - you don't need to rampage around the pitch like Gattuso fouling people in order to do that (though Scholes is no stranger to that!), the more important aspect is just being defensively astute positionally and being responsible / restrictive in contributions moving forward. It's about undertaking a defensive role in the team, as opposed to an offensive one.

I'll respond to one of you throughout the game mate as am on phone mostly and can't post loads. But feel free to post your views and interact with neutrals. Cheers.

Fair do's mate - will drop out as I just wanted to talk about Henry (as imo he's perfect there and I'd pencilled him in as soon as we picked Messi!).

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

It's unfortunately not enough to say 'we have a fairly quick right back so that's Henry sorted

I'll make an exception for this one particular comment.

So would Zanetti do well against Henry? He was no where near as pacy as Henry too. I guess there is no right back in history who could keep up with Henry there.

That great Ajax side had Neeskens and van hanegem who'll start deep and drive the ball forward.

Van Hanegem never played for Ajax for starters.

This isnt that great Dutch side. The great Dutch side didn't have Keizer and Rep working like Figo and Muller would.

The setup is built on teamwork while defending. Watch the GIF in the OP

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Scholes played his entire career as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2 system, often against three man midfield's where he was defensively outnumbered

And Fergie was made to realize that 2 man midfields don't work in Europe against quality midfields. Fergie hardly set Europe on fire with that 442.

 

[Physiocrat]

.
On Charlton / Gullit they both definitely have the work-rate to contribute in a midfield position but it's still a very unbalanced set up imo against a central threat of Messi, Iniesta and Scholes. Work-rate is just one aspect of contributing defensively (and not even close to being the most important) and what you really need outside of even an actual defensive skillset (tackling, marking, reading of the game) is a defensive mentality which offensive players don't have - literally just the mindset to hold position and take up a defensive role in the team. They're both going to want to push forward to score goals or impact the game offensively and that's just not a feasible approach when it leaves Bastian alone vs a stacked attack imo.

Charlton man-marked Der Kaiser and Gullit ended up as a sweeper. I'm pretty sure they have actual defensive skillsets although you could argue this version of Gullit hadn't yet developed them.

If you think Charlton can take on a van Hanegem style role there should be no issue with Cruyff at all. Also I think in a Pep inspired set-up Charlton and Gullit would be 8s. I can see them replacing Silva and De Bruyne in this City side

 

[Synco]

@2mufc0 How high of a defensive line are you playing? Are Henry and Kalle suitable for high pressing after losing the ball? This is a hard question to answer but what percentage of possession are you broadly aiming for?

From what I've seen from his early days: yes. Worked hard in defense (played mostly on the wings), conducted long intensive sprints occasionally (mostly backwards, to track a defensive player pushing up). Pressing was sparse, but it happened (mostly as somewhat spontaneous counter-pressing). As I remember the footage, Rummenigge/Müller/Hoeneß could be very intense at it.

What I can't say is if peak Rummenigge did that too.

Also Bastian wasn't the holder in his peak treble Bayern season, same with Sir Bobby and Gullit too weren't central midfielders at their peaks. So depends on how you want to view the draft.

I think Schweinsteiger gets a tad overrated as a player sometimes, but I'd say some of his best and most decisive work came as a holding midfielder for the NT. Partly paired with Khedira & Özil, so a lot to cover & balance out. Which he did. Later, in 2014, behind Kroos & Khedira, which was a somewhat more stable setting, but he still had a lot to sweep up.

Bobby and Gullit have a good workrate, but the team does need more defensive presence they they offer.

When I saw Charlton in a full game recently, I was surprised how little his actual role had in common with my expectations. He played more as a proper central midfield playmaker than an attacking midfielder. He mostly initiated/accelerated attacks with his passes (often from deep/central areas), rather than looking for finishing positions. The attacking moves were few, but carefully timed and dangerous. Lots of workrate & defensive presence in central (and also defensive) midfield positions. Actually similar to mid-70s Overath in his scope of action, who is often misunderstood as an "attacking midfielder not a proper central midfielder" as well.

Not based on a vast amount of material I admit, but this was my firm impression.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

On Gerets, I am curious how many people have actually watched him play in a few games?

I am sure that some have. Questioning his pace would be ridiculous in anyone's eyes who would have actually seen him play outside draft games.

I am not a fan of replacing every piece of the puzzle just because it's a better sell. Could have picked Zanetti but why change something that is not broken? For a better sell? Sure, I'll try that next time. Not really

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think Schweinsteiger often gets a tad overrated as a player, but I'd say some of his best and most decisive work came as a holding midfielder for the NT. Partly paired with Khedira & Özil, so a lot to cover & balance out. Which he did. Later, in 2014, behind Kroos & Khedira, which was a somewhat more stable setting, but he still had a lot to sweep up.

In the world cup final, it was Schweini and Kroos in midfield. Ozil, Muller and Schurrle as attackers and Klose the striker.

That is as less cover as it gets and he still marked Messi out.

 

[Theon]

So would Zanetti do well against Henry? He was no where near as pacy as Henry too. I guess there is no right back in history who could keep up with Henry there.

I think Zanetti would struggle against an Henry / Facchetti flank.

But anyway, I'm not trying to talk up Henry here - your question is twisting the order of this argument around. You initially said that Gerets was quick which meant he would be good against Henry and I was just pointing out that I disagree with that analysis. I don't think he's quick enough for pace to be a factor - the more relevant defensive skills would be reading of the game for example (snuffing out the threat before it arises). Likewise though I don't think pace offensively is enough to achieve anything.

And Fergie was made to realize that 2 man midfields don't work in Europe against quality midfields. Fergie hardly set Europe on fire with that 442.

Agreed, but 1. We're playing a three man midfield in a 4-3-3 so the criticism isn't relevant to this team 2. You don't yourself have a quality, balanced three man midfield which is the type that Ferguson's United struggled against, Schweinsteiger is the only pure midfielder there.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Charlton man-marked Der Kaiser and Gullit ended up as a sweeper. I'm pretty sure they have actual defensive skillsets although you could argue this version of Gullit hadn't yet developed them.

If you think Charlton can take on a van Hanegem style role there should be no issue with Cruyff at all. Also I think in a Pep inspired set-up Charlton and Gullit would be 8s. I can see them replacing Silva and De Bruyne in this City side

While I agree with everything you said, the bolded part is the actual selling point of the system.

It not only reproduces that City dynamic, it improves it with a lot more workrate to cover up for City's weaknesses.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Am sorry @Theon. I'll pause the conversation there.

I hope we face in one of the next drafts and argue the shit out of each other

 

[Synco]

And to be fair Muller isn't a lightning fast forward either.

Depends on what distance you're talking about, imo.

He had a mean pace over a short distance. Combined with exceptional situational awareness & reaction time and his aggressive attitude, he was beast to contain over a shorter distance. But he wasn't exceptionally fast over longer distances.

 

[Synco]

In the world cup final, it was Schweini and Kroos in midfield. Ozil, Muller and Schurrle as attackers and Klose the striker.

That is as less cover as it gets and he still marked Messi out.

Kramer was the third CM (replacement for the injured Khedira) for the first 30 minutes, Özil played on the wing. After Kramer's injury you're right (yet Boateng and partly Hummels still have to be mentioned when it comes to containing the Argentinian offense).

But I'm not sure what you're arguing against, as I supported your general assessment.